Out of that list, given that there are twenty people, I'd estimate that there are between six and 9 clans in the game. I think the SK is probably an individual acting without a clan, since the kill description certainly doesn't describe an online group. It is safe to assume that mafia are probably all in one clan unless someone comes forward about having Jobie listed as a fellow clan member. (If you do have Jobie listed as a clanmate, please announce it since it is very important information to know that we can trust clanmates.) Given that the mafia kill method is permabanning I'd say that it is possible that the Called is the mafia since they have the most mods (pure speculation). At 1st guess the most likely list of clans in the game are:
Definitely in:
Gaymers
Nearly Guaranteed:
The Called
Forum Pirates
Highly Probable:
Ivory Tower (Prizm is a member)
Probable:
Project Mayhem (another reasonable mafia candidate, just based on clan philosophy)
Greek Alliance
Possible:
FFFB
ARD
BLAME
Sanity's Requiem
RBS
I strongly doubt any of the Ravnica guild clans will be in this game.
It would make sense that all of thr mafia are in the same clan.
Also it might make sense if there were mafia "infiltrators". Mafia are hidden within the clans. There would probably be only one or less mafia per clan and I doubt that Prizm might make the game so that we get one or more confirmed townies just because of a kill.
If the mafia are spread among the clans then someone who is town would have been in the same clan as Jobie.
I'll repeat: If you are in Jobie's clan please come forward. It would be very helpful information
I am definitely leaning towards the all in one clan theory, which is probably why Jobie's clan is not listed in his death announcement unlike D_M, but that doesn't mean that we should lynch someone if they claim to be in Jobie's clan. In fact, I'd be inclined to believe anyone who claims that Jobie was an "infiltrator" in their clan.
There is no way for the mafia to be all in one clan. We know who all our clan mates are. If the mafia were in one clan they couldn't claim from other clans, and all we would have to do is mass clan claim and have the cop investigate one clan each night. Once one shows up as mafia its gg.
The point I was trying to make before was this: If jobie's clan was revealed, we could therefore ask all of the clan members to come forward. They would be confirmed townies as I doubt there are more then one mafia per clan (though Prizm might have thrown two together to make the game less broken by mass claiming). This way, we don't know Jobie's clan name, so we can't really "confirm" those who claim to be in his clan. Obv one investigation could clear it but that means outing the cop.
There is no way for the mafia to be all in one clan. We know who all our clan mates are. If the mafia were in one clan they couldn't claim from other clans, and all we would have to do is mass clan claim and have the cop investigate one clan each night. Once one shows up as mafia its gg.
Good point. You are probably correct there.
The point I was trying to make before was this: If jobie's clan was revealed, we could therefore ask all of the clan members to come forward. They would be confirmed townies as I doubt there are more then one mafia per clan (though Prizm might have thrown two together to make the game less broken by mass claiming). This way, we don't know Jobie's clan name, so we can't really "confirm" those who claim to be in his clan. Obv one investigation could clear it but that means outing the cop.
Yes but by saying this, something I had thought but decided not to say, it allows mafia to realize this and then get themshelves "cleared'.
I still want to think they are all in the same clan though. If not the flavor seems so off.
What? The entire point of my post was to say that we can't "clear" a townie just because they claim to be in the same clan.
You can think it all you want, but it's not going to be true. I'm sure Prizm wouldn't let mass claim break the game.
Alright then. So where do we go from there? With this knowledge we have to first know not to trust those in our clans. Shall we speculate on the size of clans? If mafia is spread out throughout clans they will already know this information. So, do not start discussing this yet, but shall we discuss clan size and the like?
I think the SK is probably an individual acting without a clan, since the kill description certainly doesn't describe an online group.
You're right that it doesn't sound like a group's action. That doesn't mean everyone should write off clan members. While it is unlikely that a clan member is not the serial killer, a great deal of damage could be done and ignored if we take that assumption too far.
FOS:Chimpanzee for suggesting any sort of claim (p53&55) without pressure (information) to force truth. That is giving bad people good things.
I'm not sure that the disussion of single clan mafia vs scattered mafia should be over yet.
Quote from Prizm »
And somewhere, lurking in the shadows, one clan was plotting to destroy the others.
This is from the Clan Mafia sign up thread and I think that confirms the status of the mafia as all being members of one clan. That does not mean that they have not infiltrated other clans.
You're right that it doesn't sound like a group's action. That doesn't mean everyone should write off clan members. While it is unlikely that a clan member is not the serial killer, a great deal of damage could be done and ignored if we take that assumption too far.
FOS:Chimpanzee for suggesting any sort of claim (p53&55) without pressure (information) to force truth. That is giving bad people good things.
What? Are you saying that we don't want the SK to claim? Because no SK in their right mind will claim SK. I think you may be getting a SK and a townie vig confused. SKs are no on our side. Vigs are.
I'm not sure that the disussion of single clan mafia vs scattered mafia should be over yet.
This is from the Clan Mafia sign up thread and I think that confirms the status of the mafia as all being members of one clan. That does not mean that they have not infiltrated other clans.
This is very true. We may then consider the mass role claim meat described. Although mafia would then try and hid I think they might make it obvious. I think we should discuss this.
The flavor from the sign-up thread certainly suggests a one-clan mafia. But wouldn't that make it so that a mass clan claim breaks the game? Maybe the mafia are in two clans at once. Claiming clan size could determine the how the mafia are distributed but it could also help the mafia determine which people share a clan so I'm not sure if we should do it.
Hm. I forgot about what Prizm posted. Most likely the mafia each belong to their clan, and one they've infiltrated.
If we want to mass claim, or number claim, we should only have one clan member do it. This lets us know name/size but doesn't allow us to figure out who is in which clan.
I'm still not that good for mass soft claiming. Read Shaman mafia if you want to know what happened last time this happened day one.
Hm. I forgot about what Prizm posted. Most likely the mafia each belong to their clan, and one they've infiltrated.
If we want to mass claim, or number claim, we should only have one clan member do it. This lets us know name/size but doesn't allow us to figure out who is in which clan.
Right, we just have one person per clan do it. If you do believe the mafia is privy to this information already it hurts them, not us. But if they really are one clan with no infliration it would hurt us badly.
Flavor is telling us one thing. In order to find the answer we need to claim something but doing something makes it useless. Urg. Too contradictory.
If all the power roles are by themshelves then we would shoot ourshelves in the foot. I don't know. If we only have one person per clan claim then mafia could hid as could power townies. So maybe it would nothing.
First, I'm definitely considering the "mafia clan" which has infiltrated other clans as the most probable setup. Which would mean that Jobie probably has townie clanmates. I think that a clanmate claim would be helpful since if someone does claim we know not to trust our own clanmates and if everyone "confrims" that they are not in Jobies clan then that means that we can probably trust our own clan, unless some mafia infiltrate and others do not, which is unlikely, but this scenario could be figured out with a clan number claim, but only after we have confirmed that no townies are in Jobie's clan.
Secondly, after actually considering the cases I realized that currently a mass number claim will only tell us whether the SK or other potential neutrals are acting alone and whether each mafioso has infiltrated multiple clans.
If the total claims add up to <19:
We know there are multiple neutrals acting alone.
If the total claims add up to 19:
We know the SK works alone and the people that posted quantity claims aren't the SK.
If the total claims add up to 20 :
Then we only know that in at least one clan has been infiltrated by the SK and/or other neutrals if there are any.
if the total claims add up to >20:
Then we can conclude that the each mafioso infiltrates more than one clan and that a mass claim quickly and easily breaks the game.
If the mafia are infiltrators:
Then they simply don't claim anything except on behalf of their infiltrated clan and the numbers add up normally.
If the mafia are a seperate clan with no infiltrators:
Then they just claim as though they were any other clan and the numbers also add up normally.
Very few of those cases are significantly helpful and the ones that are very helpful would mean that the game was made easily breakable which is highly unlikely. At this point, I don't believe that any mass claims are significantly helpful except for possibly determining whether a mass clan claim would catch a neutral, which I don't think would be worth the risk at this point anyway. I am for any clanmates of Jobie claiming but I won't demand it for now while there is still debate.
I really don't see what the mass clan claim would do for us if only one person from each clan claims. It gives the mafia far too many places to hide, and we can't even distinguish between whether the mafia are their own clan or have infiltrated other clans. They could either hide easily by claiming a clan not in the game, or staying quiet and and have everyone thinking they're in one of the claimed clans. The only way it could work is if everybody claims, and the mafia isn't composed of all infiltrators, in which case the cop breaks the game. I doubt that would happen.
Really, the most likely thing would be the outing of power roles (who may not be in a clan) and we won't get much useful information.
I would be for a clan member of Jobi coming forward, so that we know whether the mafia are infiltrators or not.
Just to clarify- I wasn't talking about a mass clan name claim with only one member of each clan claiming, I was talking about a mass clan quantity claim, where one member of each clan says how many people are in the clan. But anyway I don't think either one is currently benefitial.
As for the Jobie claim, I propose a systematic approach so that we can be certain if there are no townie clanmates of Jobie. We have every person specifically state whether or not they have Jobie as a clanmate and stop once anyone says yes since that will be all we need for now. This makes sure that if no one says yes it won't just be because they haven't posted or don't feel like claiming right now. Townies often hold back info but should never lie so if nobody says yes we can be sure that Jobie is no infiltrator. If anyone says yes it doesn't hurt us since the mafia would already know all of Jobie's clanmates after night 1 discussion.
What? Are you saying that we don't want the SK to claim? Because no SK in their right mind will claim SK. I think you may be getting a SK and a townie vig confused. SKs are no on our side. Vigs are.
I'm almost insulted. Check the posts I cited. Chimpanzee is calling for Jobie's clanmates to come forward. That is the claim I oppose. I can see how you could be confused; I changed topics between paragraphs. As I understand it that is what paragraphs are for.
@Chimpanzee: Those are good numbers. I'm glad you do not support a mass claim. Are you having troubles with any clanmates? You seem very worried about trusting them. Perhaps you are suspicous of some one? I can understand that. I still don't want Jobie's clanmates to claim. Here's why:
If the mafia decide to claim to be Jobie's clannmates, they will be investigated and executed. The cop will reveal them and ask for their execution as it is understood that a mafia death is worth the cop revealed. So the mafia won't claim.
If Jobie's clanmates are not mafia they might claim and draw an inspection on themselves, possibly revealing a novice cop. The reaction to the claim would be to spread paranoia and chaos among what should be united bodies of clanmembers. The mafia would prey on. This is bad whether or not the cop is revealed.
So far results would be bad, but it gets worse. There is a terrible sittuation that can come out of this. If the mafia have a godfather, the GF can claim. He will be inspected. Whether or not the cop reveals his info, the GF will insinuate himself as a confirmed townie, and who could really argue?
So I say this. No one should claim as Jobie's clanmate. It will waste the town's time and resourses, and possibly have disasterous consequenses. There is no potential for peace of mind, and much potential for chaos.
The one biggest plus to having Jobie's clanmate claim is that if we are certain that no townie was allied with Jobie every townie turns into a mason to some scale, which drastically reduces the chances of a mislynch and makes almost all townies clearable. If the godfather claims we do have a bit of a problem, but if we have everyone claim whether or not they were allied with Jobie (ammending my previous plan) and only one person says yes then we should consider the godfather possibility and perhaps not waste an inspection. The only person mafia who would lie about this is the godfather so if only one person claims we should have them full claim and figure it out from there.
As for the other little discussion going on- I think everyone has clanmates except possibly the SK or other neutrals if there are any.
I guess we should have one of jobie's clanmates claim, then claim if there are more members. I guess clan-claiming won't hurt, but I'd rather he/she not as we could catch nuetrals in lies later.
Really, the most likely thing would be the outing of power roles (who may not be in a clan) and we won't get much useful information.
Quoted for truth. I really feel like claiming clans is not a good idea. Think about it. True, the mafia has more info than the town, but all they know at this point is who is mafia and who isn't. What if it turns out that all the power roles are in one clan? What if somebody is the only member from a specific clan and we don't believe them? I'm just very wary of giving the mafia more information at this point. Heck, it may not do any of those things, and instead just give the mafia a good plan of attack.
Anywho, I am intrigued that we got D_M's clan but not Jobie's. I would tend to agree with this being an SK's work and not that of a vig, unless it's a noob vig. Firing randomly, a vig would have a better chance of hitting town than mafia, so usually vigging night one is a very bad choice. That and the kill method does seem like the work of someone deranged, rather than just evil.
(Edit before I post, preview is cool ) I think Abandon Hope has it right here. The consequences of clan claims are bad to worse for the town, as it only leads to confusion at best, and more dead townies at worst.
Quote from mystery meat of doom »
I guess we should have one of jobie's clanmates claim, then claim if there are more members. I guess clan-claiming won't hurt, but I'd rather he/she not as we could catch nuetrals in lies later.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here MMoD. Could you clarify?
EBWODP:
Quote from prizm »
In other news, Xenphire is complaining about how the site is run, but no one noticed.
Curses, didn't catch that the first time. Anybody have any idea what this is about? I sincerely doubt that the mod would just throw in something like that if it wasn't for a reason.
"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
It was in response to Chimp's post about why we should say if we were in jobie's clan. I agree but don't think that we should have the person clan-claim.
EBWODP:
Curses, didn't catch that the first time. Anybody have any idea what this is about? I sincerely doubt that the mod would just throw in something like that if it wasn't for a reason.
I was wondering about that too. But what and how can Xen complain? He is banned, ye know? And the only clan he was apart of if I remember correctly was Gaymers. I really do not get it...He could be godfather but I don't know.
I have no idea what you mean about Xenphire SG. Is that some real life board knowledge? I don't know much about people who haven't been in a mafia game here in the last 2 months.
While I discourage any specifics, do you guys think it would be helpful to speculate on possible clan sizes? Considering prizm said was can talk to our clanmates, I would assume that we all have at least one. I dunno, I guess I'm just trying to figure out how the mod would have balanced what seems to be a whole game full of seperate mason groups.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
I have no idea what you mean about Xenphire SG. Is that some real life board knowledge? I don't know much about people who haven't been in a mafia game here in the last 2 months.
Xenphire, also known as TNK, was the founder and creator of MTGSalvation. He later went on to pull one of the most erratic and stupid stunts in the history of Salvation to get himself de-admined. He was then a member for months and then went on to pull another one of the more stupid and erratic in 'Salvation's shistory, the second one got him banned.
Now I assuming the mod note referred to one player playing the role of Xen. But Xen is banned. When Xen was unbanned he was a member of gaymers.
I dunno, I guess I'm just trying to figure out how the mod would have balanced what seems to be a whole game full of seperate mason groups.
Been wondering this myself. . .
I think the Xen thing is just colour.
I think it's early to start thinking claim. How will knowing the # of people in a clan help us? + I don't think revealing clan names is a good idea right now - let the Mafia walk into a bad clan claim
I'm not so sure that this Xen thing is just flavour. A member that is banned and unhappy could account for the method of SK kill. The last time he was unhappy about the way a site was run, he started one of his own and moved much of the population over. He could be here as the SK or a cult leader. (And I think a cult could be expected in this game).
Quote from Chimpanzee »
Just to clarify- I wasn't talking about a mass clan name claim with only one member of each clan claiming, I was talking about a mass clan quantity claim
That's what I meant too, I guess I was less clear than you were. I am still opposed to this. Plus, letting the mafia know the size of our clans would let them know if they sould call themselves one clan, or break into two (assuming they aren't infiltrators).
I'm not so sure that this Xen thing is just flavour. A member that is banned and unhappy could account for the method of SK kill. The last time he was unhappy about the way a site was run, he started one of his own and moved much of the population over. He could be here as the SK or a cult leader. (And I think a cult could be expected in this game).
I guess that does make sense. Although I do not think he could be SK. Godfather makes more sense to me. Who would investigate someone who is banned? Cult leader also makes sense and you are right, with a name like Clan Mafia, it makes sense to have a clut.
Also you do not really know the half of the "the last time he was unhappy" but I probably should not disclose that. Some more information on Xen for those of you newer to the site. This comes from...somewhere. :shiftyeyes:
Quote from Me »
Although the lead administator and the founder of MTGSalvation, Xenphire struggled with several members over various issues. Overall these events can be labelled as mistreatments of users and include the changing of usernames and custom tags as well as the addition of undesirable tags to users profile's based on prior relations with these users. Although this took place to serveral members the site was still growing and much of it went unnoticed until Janurary 19 when it came to a head with the creation of the "Room with the Moose". As explained by its creator, Xenphire:
* You're entered into it when you get four warnings and would be suspended. It doesn't deny you access to the forums, all that appears is a forum for The Room With a Moose. They can't see the rest of the forum. They can post there (and yes there is a moose, a Moose room logo, and it's brown and white), but the posts don't count and smilies are turned off for Greater Justice(TM).
This and other statements caused outrage amoung some, many of those included staff. Due to his lack of support Xenphire felt that he had chose the wrong moderator team. As a result he decided to de-mod the entire staff with the exception of Sakabatou who he expected to support his decision. However he was mistaken and upon Sakabatou's seeing of the site Xenphire was de-modded and the rest of the staff re-modded by Sakabatou. This caused much discussion within the staff and on Janurary 21st it was annouced by Xenphire that he was going on vaction. This vaction began a phasing out complete within a few weeks that left Xenphire powerless as just another member.
I think we can assume that Xenphire is in the game. He could be the SK, or a cult trying to recruit for another new site. We could have a cult clan that would recruit members, or some other method of joining a different clan.
First of all, JOBIE'S CLANMATES SHOULD CLAIM. The mafia already know who you are. You are not helping anyone by not revealing yourselves. I wouldn't reveal anything about your clan except your existence and possibly the name. In fact, FOS Abandon Hope for even opposing this idea. I repeat, the mafia already know every member of Jobie's clan. The town does not. Please claim.
Also, this game seems like there exists at least the capability of ripping it apart through some sort of mass claim. That said, there is no need to rush it, we should take our time before deciding to do something drastic like that. THAT said, if we do want to do some crazy mass claim, it is better to do it today so that the mafia do not get a chance to figure out a strategy of the best way to claim.
My suggestion? Lets take today slowly so that we can decide if we want a massive claim before the end of the day.
EBWODP: I forgot to mention this, but if you post after my previous posts without claiming to be part of Jobie's clan, it should be assumed that you are not a member (and if you later claim to be a member it should be assumed to be a lie --> you get lynched).
I repeat, the mafia gains NO information by you claiming to be part of Jobie's clan. Only the town gains info, and info for the town = good.
Well then. Jobie's Clanmates should not claim.
I can type with big letters too.:)
The issue isn't the information the mafia have on the claimee, but the effect the claim has on the town and the rest of the game. We don't want to give mafia power, and that is what this claim could do.
Mass claims are very dangerous. Mods create their games so that mass claims will backfire. You can't be serious about one.
Putting words in other peoples mouths is bad, and assuming is bad. It leads to incorrect conclusions, and the mafia use this to destroy the town.
Every idea in your previous two posts reeks of scummieness. I was going to exercise restraint with my votes, but you deserve to be lynched for this. Vote:sgdre.
I agree with sgdre here, Jobie was mafia and would have told the mafia who his clanmates were. So, if you are one of his clanmates you should claim. The town needs this info.
I don't think we should have a huge claim or number claim right now. Let the mafia make mistakes and get caught in false claims.
Xen definitely sounds like a cult leader or SK. More in flavour if he's a cult leader, trying to "recruit" members.
Well then. Jobie's Clanmates should not claim.
I can type with big letters too.:)
You can, but it doesnt make you right.
The issue isn't the information the mafia have on the claimee, but the effect the claim has on the town and the rest of the game. We don't want to give mafia power, and that is what this claim could do.
X The issue is giving the town the info that the mafia already has.
Mass claims are very dangerous. Mods create their games so that mass claims will backfire. You can't be serious about one.
Putting words in other peoples mouths is bad, and assuming is bad. It leads to incorrect conclusions, and the mafia use this to destroy the town.
I guess thats possible. It is also possible that the game we are in was poorly designed. In fact, that was one of the first thoughts that ran through my head when I found out what was going on in the game. Also, I dont see what I am assuming, or what I am putting in peoples mouths.
Every idea in your previous two posts reeks of scummieness. I was going to exercise restraint with my votes, but you deserve to be lynched for this. Vote:sgdre.
Woa, solid argument. Good to know that being in favor of letting the town know information that the mafia already knows is "scummy." You're definately showing a lot of that restraint, and I can certainly see how I deserve to be lynched for wanting to make information the mafia knows public. [/sarcasm]
Information is a good thing for the town to have. Dont try to pretend that it is bad because it can "cause confusion." That is clearly a ridiculous argument that holds no water. Oh, and if you are a member of Jobie's clan, I would suggest that you heed my advice and claim.
I repeat. THE MAFIA ALREADY KNOWS THE MEMBERS OF JOBIE'S CLAN. IF YOU ARE A MEMBER OF SAID CLAN YOU SHOULD CLAIM. FAILING TO DO SO WILL BE INTERPRETED (maybe not by abandon hope) AS LYING.
Perhaps you are not understanding what will happen if Jobie'sclan mate claims. Will you trust him blindly? If you will, there is an easy way for the mafia to ingratiate themselves with the town. If you don't trust them how will you know what they tell you to be true? They might as well remain silent for all the good it would do you.
Then there is the cops action. I doubt touchable mafia will make this claim. For all of us to be sure though, the cop will have to reveal their identity, and I'm sure you see why that is bad. By requesting a claim from an unknown source you are creating a safe haven for a Godfather, wasting the cops time, and possibly endangering the cop, not to mention wasting the cop's time.
Quote from sgdre »
Also, I dont see what I am assuming, or what I am putting in peoples mouths.
You put words in other's mouths when you assign them a claim for remaining silent. In this case that claim is "not Jobie's clanmember." I thought that was obvious, forgive me for not elaborating.
I've seen these kind of situations lead to devestating results when the mafia uses them correctly. I think it's been mentioned already, but Shaman mafia was an excelent example of that. I ask that you not think only of action, but of reactions as well. Where does revealing this info lead? What is the worst that could happen? Is the risk worth it?
In this case, the risk of a well position godfather, the delay in the cop's job of finding mafia, and lack of resolution should the unknown clanmember claim is too negative to proceed. Requesting the claim is not justified.
It doesn't matter whether or not I believe someone if they claim to be part of Jobie's clan (although it doesnt really make sense to flase claim it). What matters is that right now the mafia knows exactly who was part of Jobie's clan and the town doesnt.
I want the town to gain this information as well.
Arguing that giving the town MORE information is bad because it might lead to bad decisions is terrible logic. More information can only lead to BETTER decisions.
I am not asking the cop to do anything. I am not trying to force the cop into a situation where s/he has to claim. All I want to do is give the town more information.
This is a game of information. Any credible info helps the town. Also, dont try to bring up shaman mafia, it is an unrelated point. That was a case of the mafia trying to gain information. I am asking information that the mafia ALREADY KNOWS to be revealed (members of, and possibly the name of Jobie's clan). The is absolutely no chance that this could help the mafia, unless they forgot to talk about it for some reason.
I urge any members of Jobie's clan to come foward, and for abandon hope to stop trying to prevent the town from gaining info.
It could be that the Mafia is comprised of one-off clan dudes + someone is making a bunch of noise.
What exactly do we gain if someone steps forward as Jobie's clanmate?
post-preview addition - Suggesting that "this game seems like there exists at least the capability of ripping it apart through some sort of mass claim"
followed by
"It is also possible that the game we are in was poorly designed" was bad enough for me to want to FOS you, sgdre, but this exchange just gives me the Fear -
Quote from Abandon Hope »
I doubt touchable mafia will make this claim. For all of us to be sure though, the cop will have to reveal their identity, and I'm sure you see why that is bad. By requesting a claim from an unknown source you are creating a safe haven for a Godfather, wasting the cops time, and possibly endangering the cop, not to mention wasting the cop's time.
Quote from sgdre »
I am not asking the cop to do anything
Quote from Abandon Hope »
Will you trust (the claimer) blindly?
VOTE:sgdre for not seeing the massive Untargetable/Godfather hole in his Jobie-claim plan. You are ASSUMING that there was someone clanned with Jobie, + making a space for that someone to jump in.
sgdre, I think you're missing the point here. The only way having a clanmate of Jobie claim helps the town is in the case that there are townies who share a clan or clans with mafia. Members of Jobie's clan come forward, the cop can go through the list until he hits scum. However, what if the mafia are all in the same clan? They can say whatever they want about their clan. They can keep that idea, maybe changing the clan name or split up into groups, whatever they want. And like Abandon Hope said, the only one likely to claim in that case is a godfather, although I'm curious why everyone assumes the existence of one. You seem way too adamant about this, and even though I realize some people think third vote is scummy, vote sgdre cause Puchik2 isn't in this game.
Even besides the points listed above, we still haven't even heard from everybody in this game. I think that if nothing else we should wait for everybody to post once before we decide that they might have to claim something.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
Even besides the points listed above, we still haven't even heard from everybody in this game. I think that if nothing else we should wait for everybody to post once before we decide that they might have to claim something.
Agreed. Prod if nessasary.
On the issues themshelves I am undecided. It seems that the mafia can not be in one clan but the flavor says it does. If they are in one clan then it makes no sense for Jobie's clanmate to claim. However if they are in different clans he must claim. So it comes down to how your role is worded. If it has a mason claus that some do, something like "you and your townie clansmates must" then you should come forward. Otherwise probably not.
As for the way in which the issues have been argued sgdre's logic is generally stronger than Abondon Hope's. Abondon Hope also seems a little agressive but overall I am not too suspicious of either of their play.
ok sorry for not posting, but my computer got a very bad virus and right now I am on my dads comp. not much so far but fos: anyone talking about jobies clan claiming/not claiming I find that very scummy as we do not need a semi mass claim already.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from hotshizzle »
<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
'ello everyone. Wow, calls for prods less than 24 hrs after the game starts? Aren't we impatient?
Any way, as this I'm not a member of Jobie's clan should make clear, I support sgdre's arguments much more than abandon hope's. That said, I think sgdre is being far too misleading and aggressive in attributing claims to anyone that posts after him.
Abandon Hope, your argument seems to be that discovering the mafia was in a clan with townies will cause the town to mistrust their clanmates. Frankly if others in my clan can be mafia I don't want to trust them implicitly. Further, I think this is definitely an issue that needs to be resolved today, as if we go to night it will allow the mafia to fabricate all sorts of info that we may seek.
Therefor, I think we should discover info regarding the number of clans and sizes before the day ends too. While I'm normally opposed to mass claims, soft or otherwise, I think this will be invaluable to us at a latter stage and, as I say, meaningless if the mafia has a chance to discuss it first. I don't, at this point, see what damage will be done by revealing this info. I'm certainly willing to hear counter arguments, but would really like to have everyone take a side on this issue, hopefully with reasoning.
Wow, usually my first posts just say "Random vote puzzle. Hey everyone lets have a good game."
Ummm... I really thought I had made this post before going to shovel, but I guess not.
I am not saying what the town will or should do with any information gained by having Jobie's clanmates claim.
The way I see it, the worst that could happen would be for no one to claim to be a member, at which point we STILL gain information.
Also, please stop comparing this to shaman mafia. In shaman, the mafia used a very deceptive ploy to match rolenames (which they knew) with the people of that name. In a sense, it was the mafia gaining info from the townies without the town gaining any real info. What I am suggesting is that people reveal information that the mafia ALREADY knows. I am not saying if/what we should do with the info, just so that it should be in the open. It can only increase our knowledge of the game (or admitedly be used as a ploy by the mafia, but that requires a significant risk and wont even necessarily help the mafia).
We can take time to discuss this, but it has to happen before night if we are going to do it. That way the mafia will not get a chance to discuss possible plans.
Speaking of which, Abandon Hope and Machin Shin, please stop coaching the mafia. It would be very convieniant if somehow they all figured out the best way to handle a given situation that they hadnt discussed at night, no?
I am extremely close to voting one of these guys, but we are in no realy hurry (and Im still trying to pressure SG into remembering my name :wink2: )
I guess we probably shouldn't have Jobie's clan claim yet due to the godfather possibility since the only way to know for sure would be lynching/vigging the claimed person, which I'm not sure we want to do. The only thing I wanted to acheive by getting a clan member of Jobie to claim was to confirm the infiltrator theory, but now it seems this plan is also too risky. Plus I can't really think of any balanced setup that wouldn't include infiltrating mafia, otherwise the game would be broken quite easily.
Anyone have any ideas other than random lynching? We don't exactly have much in the way of leads, and I can't really consider sgdre too scummy without being an absolute hypocrite.
The situation in which GF claims to be clanmates w/ Jobie:
Mafia are all in one clan/ in no revealed clan
GF sows temporary confusion
Then at somepoint we lynch a mafia through sloppy play
At this point we realize he wasn't clanmate w/ any townies
We just caught the GF
This in my opinion is worth some temporary confusion.
Also you do not really know the half of the "the last time he was unhappy" but I probably should not disclose that.
I really don't know much of what happened concerning Xenophire's actions just before he was banned, and am not claiming to. I was using a turn of phrase to refer to the founding of mtgsalvation. I'm sorry for any confusion.
I think that Abandon Hope and sgdre need to calm down a little bit. Both raise good points, but are taking this a little too aggressively. I am still in favour of Jobie's clanmates claiming. It really can't hurt us that much and Treigit's last post gives a good reason why the mafia won't be able to exploit it.
Quote from rianalnn »
What exactly do we gain if someone steps forward as Jobie's clanmate?
We gain the knowledge that maybe our clanmates shouldn't be trusted so readily. If no-one claims, we gain the knowledge that our clanmates can be trusted, and possibly break the game. This seems pretty win-win, even if the first win is a rather small victory.
Case time!
Red= definitely not a good decision
Possibly not good and anything better is left black.
I. If we go for a complete claim from Jobie's clan-
.A. if no one claims then the infiltrator theory is wrong and we can probably flat out win easily via a mass claim. (Unlikely since this would mean a very unbalanced game, but very good outcome)
.B. If one person claims -
..1. and we don't inspect the person-
...a. and that person is town-
....i. and we blindly trust the person- we have no information definitely gained but the infiltration theory is supported, meaning that we should attempt to test our clanmates at night to seek infiltrators. (good)
....ii. and we kill the person, then we know for certain that the infiltrator theory is correct and would follow the same course of action above, but with certainty. (gain information, lose person)
...b. and the person is mafia-
i. and we blindly trust the person- we will follow the same course of action as IB1ai, but it will be a misguided course of action and may result in mislynching (so blind trust would not be the way to go, ruling out IB1ai)
....ii. and we kill the person- Probably the best possible case. We would have killed mafia and learned that we can clear people based on clanmates. (really good)
..2. and we do inspect the person-
...a. and the inspection turns up town (there is a method of doing this that doesn't involve revealing the inspector- tell the inspector to go for claimed person but only reveal themself if they hit mafia)
....i. and we trust the inspection, keeping the person alive
.....`and the person actually is town- then we have good reason to believe the infiltrator theory and not to trust our own clan. (somewhat good)
.....``and the person is the godfather- then we have a misguided reason to believe the infiltrator theory and we actually should trust our clanmates but don't (quite bad)
....ii. and we decide not to trust the inspection (same as IB1Aii, so if we decide we won't trust the inspection there is no point in telling the inspector who to target so we may as well just go with IB1Aii)
...b. and the inspection turns up mafia- we kill inspected party and celebrate. (killing mafia = good)
C. If 2 or more people claim, then we almost definitely know that the infiltrator theory is true, but we may want to inspect or kill one of them to make sure.
I won't do complete cases for C because there are too many.
Also note: The cases which allow for an infiltrator mafia are the ones which I consider more likely.
Based on that, any results for a mass "in Jobie's clan claim" would probably be benefitial if 0 or 2+ people end up claiming. If one person claims then the best course of action is probably to kill them, which at worst exchanges a townie for information and at best catches mafia and allows us to break the game. However the worst case scenario is the most likely IMO, but it is still better than a random lynch. If we get something else to go on then we shouldn't go with this plan. So basically if we don't get anything worth going on we should do this plan, but I won't recommend it unless it seems that we aren't getting anywhere.
Definitely in:
Gaymers
Nearly Guaranteed:
The Called
Forum Pirates
Highly Probable:
Ivory Tower (Prizm is a member)
Probable:
Project Mayhem (another reasonable mafia candidate, just based on clan philosophy)
Greek Alliance
Possible:
FFFB
ARD
BLAME
Sanity's Requiem
RBS
I strongly doubt any of the Ravnica guild clans will be in this game.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Also it might make sense if there were mafia "infiltrators". Mafia are hidden within the clans. There would probably be only one or less mafia per clan and I doubt that Prizm might make the game so that we get one or more confirmed townies just because of a kill.
I'll repeat: If you are in Jobie's clan please come forward. It would be very helpful information
I am definitely leaning towards the all in one clan theory, which is probably why Jobie's clan is not listed in his death announcement unlike D_M, but that doesn't mean that we should lynch someone if they claim to be in Jobie's clan. In fact, I'd be inclined to believe anyone who claims that Jobie was an "infiltrator" in their clan.
3CB and 4CB5CB!3CB and 4CB5CB!The point I was trying to make before was this: If jobie's clan was revealed, we could therefore ask all of the clan members to come forward. They would be confirmed townies as I doubt there are more then one mafia per clan (though Prizm might have thrown two together to make the game less broken by mass claiming). This way, we don't know Jobie's clan name, so we can't really "confirm" those who claim to be in his clan. Obv one investigation could clear it but that means outing the cop.
I do not know about this whole situation. I really think they are all in one and it will not amtter but I have no objections about it going forward.
Good point. You are probably correct there.
Yes but by saying this, something I had thought but decided not to say, it allows mafia to realize this and then get themshelves "cleared'.
I still want to think they are all in the same clan though. If not the flavor seems so off.
confirm VOTE: SorryGuy
What? The entire point of my post was to say that we can't "clear" a townie just because they claim to be in the same clan.
You can think it all you want, but it's not going to be true. I'm sure Prizm wouldn't let mass claim break the game.
Alright then. So where do we go from there? With this knowledge we have to first know not to trust those in our clans. Shall we speculate on the size of clans? If mafia is spread out throughout clans they will already know this information. So, do not start discussing this yet, but shall we discuss clan size and the like?
FOS:Chimpanzee for suggesting any sort of claim (p53&55) without pressure (information) to force truth. That is giving bad people good things.
I'm not sure that the disussion of single clan mafia vs scattered mafia should be over yet.
This is from the Clan Mafia sign up thread and I think that confirms the status of the mafia as all being members of one clan. That does not mean that they have not infiltrated other clans.
What? Are you saying that we don't want the SK to claim? Because no SK in their right mind will claim SK. I think you may be getting a SK and a townie vig confused. SKs are no on our side. Vigs are.
This is very true. We may then consider the mass role claim meat described. Although mafia would then try and hid I think they might make it obvious. I think we should discuss this.
3CB and 4CB5CB!If we want to mass claim, or number claim, we should only have one clan member do it. This lets us know name/size but doesn't allow us to figure out who is in which clan.
I'm still not that good for mass soft claiming. Read Shaman mafia if you want to know what happened last time this happened day one.
Right, we just have one person per clan do it. If you do believe the mafia is privy to this information already it hurts them, not us. But if they really are one clan with no infliration it would hurt us badly.
Flavor is telling us one thing. In order to find the answer we need to claim something but doing something makes it useless. Urg. Too contradictory.
If all the power roles are by themshelves then we would shoot ourshelves in the foot. I don't know. If we only have one person per clan claim then mafia could hid as could power townies. So maybe it would nothing.
Meh.
Secondly, after actually considering the cases I realized that currently a mass number claim will only tell us whether the SK or other potential neutrals are acting alone and whether each mafioso has infiltrated multiple clans.
If the total claims add up to <19:
We know there are multiple neutrals acting alone.
If the total claims add up to 19:
We know the SK works alone and the people that posted quantity claims aren't the SK.
If the total claims add up to 20 :
Then we only know that in at least one clan has been infiltrated by the SK and/or other neutrals if there are any.
if the total claims add up to >20:
Then we can conclude that the each mafioso infiltrates more than one clan and that a mass claim quickly and easily breaks the game.
If the mafia are infiltrators:
Then they simply don't claim anything except on behalf of their infiltrated clan and the numbers add up normally.
If the mafia are a seperate clan with no infiltrators:
Then they just claim as though they were any other clan and the numbers also add up normally.
Very few of those cases are significantly helpful and the ones that are very helpful would mean that the game was made easily breakable which is highly unlikely. At this point, I don't believe that any mass claims are significantly helpful except for possibly determining whether a mass clan claim would catch a neutral, which I don't think would be worth the risk at this point anyway. I am for any clanmates of Jobie claiming but I won't demand it for now while there is still debate.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Really, the most likely thing would be the outing of power roles (who may not be in a clan) and we won't get much useful information.
I would be for a clan member of Jobi coming forward, so that we know whether the mafia are infiltrators or not.
As for the Jobie claim, I propose a systematic approach so that we can be certain if there are no townie clanmates of Jobie. We have every person specifically state whether or not they have Jobie as a clanmate and stop once anyone says yes since that will be all we need for now. This makes sure that if no one says yes it won't just be because they haven't posted or don't feel like claiming right now. Townies often hold back info but should never lie so if nobody says yes we can be sure that Jobie is no infiltrator. If anyone says yes it doesn't hurt us since the mafia would already know all of Jobie's clanmates after night 1 discussion.
3CB and 4CB5CB!@Chimpanzee: Those are good numbers. I'm glad you do not support a mass claim. Are you having troubles with any clanmates? You seem very worried about trusting them. Perhaps you are suspicous of some one? I can understand that. I still don't want Jobie's clanmates to claim. Here's why:
If the mafia decide to claim to be Jobie's clannmates, they will be investigated and executed. The cop will reveal them and ask for their execution as it is understood that a mafia death is worth the cop revealed. So the mafia won't claim.
If Jobie's clanmates are not mafia they might claim and draw an inspection on themselves, possibly revealing a novice cop. The reaction to the claim would be to spread paranoia and chaos among what should be united bodies of clanmembers. The mafia would prey on. This is bad whether or not the cop is revealed.
So far results would be bad, but it gets worse. There is a terrible sittuation that can come out of this. If the mafia have a godfather, the GF can claim. He will be inspected. Whether or not the cop reveals his info, the GF will insinuate himself as a confirmed townie, and who could really argue?
So I say this. No one should claim as Jobie's clanmate. It will waste the town's time and resourses, and possibly have disasterous consequenses. There is no potential for peace of mind, and much potential for chaos.
You are correct in saying everyone has a clan. If not it would not be called clan mafia. But I do not know if everyone has clanmates.
Chimp's ideas seem good and I apparntly have problems reading.
As for the other little discussion going on- I think everyone has clanmates except possibly the SK or other neutrals if there are any.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Quoted for truth. I really feel like claiming clans is not a good idea. Think about it. True, the mafia has more info than the town, but all they know at this point is who is mafia and who isn't. What if it turns out that all the power roles are in one clan? What if somebody is the only member from a specific clan and we don't believe them? I'm just very wary of giving the mafia more information at this point. Heck, it may not do any of those things, and instead just give the mafia a good plan of attack.
Anywho, I am intrigued that we got D_M's clan but not Jobie's. I would tend to agree with this being an SK's work and not that of a vig, unless it's a noob vig. Firing randomly, a vig would have a better chance of hitting town than mafia, so usually vigging night one is a very bad choice. That and the kill method does seem like the work of someone deranged, rather than just evil.
(Edit before I post, preview is cool ) I think Abandon Hope has it right here. The consequences of clan claims are bad to worse for the town, as it only leads to confusion at best, and more dead townies at worst.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here MMoD. Could you clarify?
EBWODP:
Curses, didn't catch that the first time. Anybody have any idea what this is about? I sincerely doubt that the mod would just throw in something like that if it wasn't for a reason.
I was wondering about that too. But what and how can Xen complain? He is banned, ye know? And the only clan he was apart of if I remember correctly was Gaymers. I really do not get it...He could be godfather but I don't know.
While I discourage any specifics, do you guys think it would be helpful to speculate on possible clan sizes? Considering prizm said was can talk to our clanmates, I would assume that we all have at least one. I dunno, I guess I'm just trying to figure out how the mod would have balanced what seems to be a whole game full of seperate mason groups.
Xenphire, also known as TNK, was the founder and creator of MTGSalvation. He later went on to pull one of the most erratic and stupid stunts in the history of Salvation to get himself de-admined. He was then a member for months and then went on to pull another one of the more stupid and erratic in 'Salvation's shistory, the second one got him banned.
Now I assuming the mod note referred to one player playing the role of Xen. But Xen is banned. When Xen was unbanned he was a member of gaymers.
I think the Xen thing is just colour.
I think it's early to start thinking claim. How will knowing the # of people in a clan help us? + I don't think revealing clan names is a good idea right now - let the Mafia walk into a bad clan claim
That's what I meant too, I guess I was less clear than you were. I am still opposed to this. Plus, letting the mafia know the size of our clans would let them know if they sould call themselves one clan, or break into two (assuming they aren't infiltrators).
I guess that does make sense. Although I do not think he could be SK. Godfather makes more sense to me. Who would investigate someone who is banned? Cult leader also makes sense and you are right, with a name like Clan Mafia, it makes sense to have a clut.
Also you do not really know the half of the "the last time he was unhappy" but I probably should not disclose that. Some more information on Xen for those of you newer to the site. This comes from...somewhere. :shiftyeyes:
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || sk: LookingforReality (Copycat) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || survivor: matjoeman (Anarchist) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || town: kops (Anarchist) |||
Mafia stats
First of all, JOBIE'S CLANMATES SHOULD CLAIM. The mafia already know who you are. You are not helping anyone by not revealing yourselves. I wouldn't reveal anything about your clan except your existence and possibly the name. In fact, FOS Abandon Hope for even opposing this idea. I repeat, the mafia already know every member of Jobie's clan. The town does not. Please claim.
Also, this game seems like there exists at least the capability of ripping it apart through some sort of mass claim. That said, there is no need to rush it, we should take our time before deciding to do something drastic like that. THAT said, if we do want to do some crazy mass claim, it is better to do it today so that the mafia do not get a chance to figure out a strategy of the best way to claim.
My suggestion? Lets take today slowly so that we can decide if we want a massive claim before the end of the day.
I repeat, the mafia gains NO information by you claiming to be part of Jobie's clan. Only the town gains info, and info for the town = good.
I can type with big letters too.:)
The issue isn't the information the mafia have on the claimee, but the effect the claim has on the town and the rest of the game. We don't want to give mafia power, and that is what this claim could do.
Mass claims are very dangerous. Mods create their games so that mass claims will backfire. You can't be serious about one.
Putting words in other peoples mouths is bad, and assuming is bad. It leads to incorrect conclusions, and the mafia use this to destroy the town.
Every idea in your previous two posts reeks of scummieness. I was going to exercise restraint with my votes, but you deserve to be lynched for this. Vote:sgdre.
I don't think we should have a huge claim or number claim right now. Let the mafia make mistakes and get caught in false claims.
Xen definitely sounds like a cult leader or SK. More in flavour if he's a cult leader, trying to "recruit" members.
banner by: Alex+
You can, but it doesnt make you right.
X The issue is giving the town the info that the mafia already has.
I guess thats possible. It is also possible that the game we are in was poorly designed. In fact, that was one of the first thoughts that ran through my head when I found out what was going on in the game. Also, I dont see what I am assuming, or what I am putting in peoples mouths.
Woa, solid argument. Good to know that being in favor of letting the town know information that the mafia already knows is "scummy." You're definately showing a lot of that restraint, and I can certainly see how I deserve to be lynched for wanting to make information the mafia knows public. [/sarcasm]
Information is a good thing for the town to have. Dont try to pretend that it is bad because it can "cause confusion." That is clearly a ridiculous argument that holds no water. Oh, and if you are a member of Jobie's clan, I would suggest that you heed my advice and claim.
I repeat. THE MAFIA ALREADY KNOWS THE MEMBERS OF JOBIE'S CLAN. IF YOU ARE A MEMBER OF SAID CLAN YOU SHOULD CLAIM. FAILING TO DO SO WILL BE INTERPRETED (maybe not by abandon hope) AS LYING.
Then there is the cops action. I doubt touchable mafia will make this claim. For all of us to be sure though, the cop will have to reveal their identity, and I'm sure you see why that is bad. By requesting a claim from an unknown source you are creating a safe haven for a Godfather, wasting the cops time, and possibly endangering the cop, not to mention wasting the cop's time.
You put words in other's mouths when you assign them a claim for remaining silent. In this case that claim is "not Jobie's clanmember." I thought that was obvious, forgive me for not elaborating.
I've seen these kind of situations lead to devestating results when the mafia uses them correctly. I think it's been mentioned already, but Shaman mafia was an excelent example of that. I ask that you not think only of action, but of reactions as well. Where does revealing this info lead? What is the worst that could happen? Is the risk worth it?
In this case, the risk of a well position godfather, the delay in the cop's job of finding mafia, and lack of resolution should the unknown clanmember claim is too negative to proceed. Requesting the claim is not justified.
It doesn't matter whether or not I believe someone if they claim to be part of Jobie's clan (although it doesnt really make sense to flase claim it). What matters is that right now the mafia knows exactly who was part of Jobie's clan and the town doesnt.
I want the town to gain this information as well.
Arguing that giving the town MORE information is bad because it might lead to bad decisions is terrible logic. More information can only lead to BETTER decisions.
I am not asking the cop to do anything. I am not trying to force the cop into a situation where s/he has to claim. All I want to do is give the town more information.
This is a game of information. Any credible info helps the town. Also, dont try to bring up shaman mafia, it is an unrelated point. That was a case of the mafia trying to gain information. I am asking information that the mafia ALREADY KNOWS to be revealed (members of, and possibly the name of Jobie's clan). The is absolutely no chance that this could help the mafia, unless they forgot to talk about it for some reason.
I urge any members of Jobie's clan to come foward, and for abandon hope to stop trying to prevent the town from gaining info.
What exactly do we gain if someone steps forward as Jobie's clanmate?
post-preview addition - Suggesting that "this game seems like there exists at least the capability of ripping it apart through some sort of mass claim"
followed by
"It is also possible that the game we are in was poorly designed" was bad enough for me to want to FOS you, sgdre, but this exchange just gives me the Fear -
VOTE:sgdre for not seeing the massive Untargetable/Godfather hole in his Jobie-claim plan. You are ASSUMING that there was someone clanned with Jobie, + making a space for that someone to jump in.
Even besides the points listed above, we still haven't even heard from everybody in this game. I think that if nothing else we should wait for everybody to post once before we decide that they might have to claim something.
Agreed. Prod if nessasary.
On the issues themshelves I am undecided. It seems that the mafia can not be in one clan but the flavor says it does. If they are in one clan then it makes no sense for Jobie's clanmate to claim. However if they are in different clans he must claim. So it comes down to how your role is worded. If it has a mason claus that some do, something like "you and your townie clansmates must" then you should come forward. Otherwise probably not.
As for the way in which the issues have been argued sgdre's logic is generally stronger than Abondon Hope's. Abondon Hope also seems a little agressive but overall I am not too suspicious of either of their play.
Any way, as this I'm not a member of Jobie's clan should make clear, I support sgdre's arguments much more than abandon hope's. That said, I think sgdre is being far too misleading and aggressive in attributing claims to anyone that posts after him.
Abandon Hope, your argument seems to be that discovering the mafia was in a clan with townies will cause the town to mistrust their clanmates. Frankly if others in my clan can be mafia I don't want to trust them implicitly. Further, I think this is definitely an issue that needs to be resolved today, as if we go to night it will allow the mafia to fabricate all sorts of info that we may seek.
Therefor, I think we should discover info regarding the number of clans and sizes before the day ends too. While I'm normally opposed to mass claims, soft or otherwise, I think this will be invaluable to us at a latter stage and, as I say, meaningless if the mafia has a chance to discuss it first. I don't, at this point, see what damage will be done by revealing this info. I'm certainly willing to hear counter arguments, but would really like to have everyone take a side on this issue, hopefully with reasoning.
Wow, usually my first posts just say "Random vote puzzle. Hey everyone lets have a good game."
I am not saying what the town will or should do with any information gained by having Jobie's clanmates claim.
The way I see it, the worst that could happen would be for no one to claim to be a member, at which point we STILL gain information.
Also, please stop comparing this to shaman mafia. In shaman, the mafia used a very deceptive ploy to match rolenames (which they knew) with the people of that name. In a sense, it was the mafia gaining info from the townies without the town gaining any real info. What I am suggesting is that people reveal information that the mafia ALREADY knows. I am not saying if/what we should do with the info, just so that it should be in the open. It can only increase our knowledge of the game (or admitedly be used as a ploy by the mafia, but that requires a significant risk and wont even necessarily help the mafia).
We can take time to discuss this, but it has to happen before night if we are going to do it. That way the mafia will not get a chance to discuss possible plans.
Speaking of which, Abandon Hope and Machin Shin, please stop coaching the mafia. It would be very convieniant if somehow they all figured out the best way to handle a given situation that they hadnt discussed at night, no?
I am extremely close to voting one of these guys, but we are in no realy hurry (and Im still trying to pressure SG into remembering my name :wink2: )
Anyone have any ideas other than random lynching? We don't exactly have much in the way of leads, and I can't really consider sgdre too scummy without being an absolute hypocrite.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Mafia are all in one clan/ in no revealed clan
GF sows temporary confusion
Then at somepoint we lynch a mafia through sloppy play
At this point we realize he wasn't clanmate w/ any townies
We just caught the GF
This in my opinion is worth some temporary confusion.
I really don't know much of what happened concerning Xenophire's actions just before he was banned, and am not claiming to. I was using a turn of phrase to refer to the founding of mtgsalvation. I'm sorry for any confusion.
I think that Abandon Hope and sgdre need to calm down a little bit. Both raise good points, but are taking this a little too aggressively. I am still in favour of Jobie's clanmates claiming. It really can't hurt us that much and Treigit's last post gives a good reason why the mafia won't be able to exploit it.
We gain the knowledge that maybe our clanmates shouldn't be trusted so readily. If no-one claims, we gain the knowledge that our clanmates can be trusted, and possibly break the game. This seems pretty win-win, even if the first win is a rather small victory.
Red= definitely not a good decision
Possibly not good and anything better is left black.
I. If we go for a complete claim from Jobie's clan-
.A. if no one claims then the infiltrator theory is wrong and we can probably flat out win easily via a mass claim. (Unlikely since this would mean a very unbalanced game, but very good outcome)
.B. If one person claims -
..1. and we don't inspect the person-
...a. and that person is town-
....i. and we blindly trust the person- we have no information definitely gained but the infiltration theory is supported, meaning that we should attempt to test our clanmates at night to seek infiltrators. (good)
....ii. and we kill the person, then we know for certain that the infiltrator theory is correct and would follow the same course of action above, but with certainty. (gain information, lose person)
...b. and the person is mafia-
i. and we blindly trust the person- we will follow the same course of action as IB1ai, but it will be a misguided course of action and may result in mislynching (so blind trust would not be the way to go, ruling out IB1ai)
....ii. and we kill the person- Probably the best possible case. We would have killed mafia and learned that we can clear people based on clanmates. (really good)
..2. and we do inspect the person-
...a. and the inspection turns up town (there is a method of doing this that doesn't involve revealing the inspector- tell the inspector to go for claimed person but only reveal themself if they hit mafia)
....i. and we trust the inspection, keeping the person alive
.....`and the person actually is town- then we have good reason to believe the infiltrator theory and not to trust our own clan. (somewhat good)
.....``and the person is the godfather- then we have a misguided reason to believe the infiltrator theory and we actually should trust our clanmates but don't (quite bad)
....ii. and we decide not to trust the inspection (same as IB1Aii, so if we decide we won't trust the inspection there is no point in telling the inspector who to target so we may as well just go with IB1Aii)
...b. and the inspection turns up mafia- we kill inspected party and celebrate. (killing mafia = good)
C. If 2 or more people claim, then we almost definitely know that the infiltrator theory is true, but we may want to inspect or kill one of them to make sure.
I won't do complete cases for C because there are too many.
Also note: The cases which allow for an infiltrator mafia are the ones which I consider more likely.
Based on that, any results for a mass "in Jobie's clan claim" would probably be benefitial if 0 or 2+ people end up claiming. If one person claims then the best course of action is probably to kill them, which at worst exchanges a townie for information and at best catches mafia and allows us to break the game. However the worst case scenario is the most likely IMO, but it is still better than a random lynch. If we get something else to go on then we shouldn't go with this plan. So basically if we don't get anything worth going on we should do this plan, but I won't recommend it unless it seems that we aren't getting anywhere.
3CB and 4CB5CB!