I agree that we should mass claim. My pm doesn't asy anytingh about mssa cailming at all. Er. I ean tha it oesdnt say aything about my like clamantes kiinllng poelpe.
Let's get a clear mority bfore we like. c liam adn suff
I think that we should claim the clan that we are in.
Clanmates will become obv.
I think that Abandon hope should start, and that whoever claims should pick the next to claim. Agreed?
That works for me...and yes, that is sweet drunk typing!
-Alpha
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
O ya! If this claim does go down, DO NOT CLAIM YOUR CLANMATES. That would provide too easy an out to the mafia, as they would not have to each make a decision (that could lead to conflicts).
I repeat, if we do this, ONLY CLAIM YOUR OWN CLAN. NOT CLANMATES.
EBWODP: and on the same token, if someone falseclaims your clan, dont say anything about it until after ALL of the claims have happened. We want to catch as many mistakes as possible.
Blast...well, does that screw anything major up, or can abandon just go next (assuming he complies...)
-Alpha
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
1) you should claim ONLY your clan
2) DO NOT claim clanmates
3) DO indicate the next person to claim
4) DO NOT claim out of order
5) DO NOT post a response to someones claim until ALL claims are finished.
1) you should claim ONLY your clan
2) DO NOT claim clanmates
3) DO indicate the next person to claim
4) DO NOT claim out of order
5) DO NOT post a response to someones claim until ALL claims are finished.
So long as everyone agrees, which I do, there is no reason for there to be any other discussion going on in here.
I think that we should claim the clan that we are in.
Clanmates will become obv.
I think that Abandon hope should start, and that whoever claims should pick the next to claim. Agreed?
I thought I made it perfectly clear that I wasn't going along with anymore of your crazy plans. However, things have changed, so this takes some thought.
(What happens after we all claim clans? How do we know which clan is mafia? We test them one by one. It doesn't matter if we miss a few times, in the end all the mafia will die.
If the mafia was the only threat I was worried about, it would seem like a good idea. But consider the serial killer, a cult, and other neutrals and things get messy. Prism isn't an idiot, it isn't this easy. In the end I'm still against a mass claim.)
Nope, I don't like the logic of it. It looks good on the surface, but it will hurt us all. Plus I'm not following sgdre's plans anymore. Just like I predicted, he's pushed a mass claim back to vialbility (albeit with help from Prizm). There should be no mass claim, so I do not agree.
Looking at the front page, it looks like someone at least asked the first half of sgdre's question since the emphasis in this
*Prizmquote*
certainly makes it seem like the question was asked.
Prizm changed that after role pms were sent, + I pm'd him asking if we were playing clanmates as mason roles.
I did pm Prizm, as I said above, but I also asked him to clarify if MAFIA is Jobie's clan name or what. I'll send again, since he mass-replied in thread but didn't cover that topic. . .
We jumped to a mass claim rather quickly here. Just because we can assume our clanmates are townies doesn't mean everyone is in a clan. A revelation like this will have major consequences and they may not all be in the best interest of the town.
FoS: Sorryguy and sgdre for all the assumptions and haste. FoS: Abandon Hope for refusing the possibilty of pming Prizm (even though it turned out unnecessary, and you seem fishy to me, right now anyways.
We should probably all discuss the idea of a mass-claim and how to claim. Perhaps even vote on it, because this is a major decision. I understand moving quickly may catch the mafia in more lies, but making serious mistakes or being impulsive will only hurt us in the end.
And guys, I guess I didn't pay enough attention to the other mafia games, but what's a cult/what does that mean for the town? And do neutral's (not sk) kill people?
We jumped to a mass claim rather quickly here. Just because we can assume our clanmates are townies doesn't mean everyone is in a clan. A revelation like this will have major consequences and they may not all be in the best interest of the town.
So you think that the mafia is each in their own clan with no esle in it? They are all mini-SKs that can communicate? This does not seem to make much sense to me.
So you think that the mafia is each in their own clan with no esle in it? They are all mini-SKs that can communicate? This does not seem to make much sense to me.
What I'm saying is we don't know. Maybe they're in clans with neutrals? If it's more split up that way it could take a lot longer to figure out who to kill. I just think we should have discussed this with everyone before you and sgdre decided we were doing a mass-claim.
What I'm saying is we don't know. Maybe they're in clans with neutrals? If it's more split up that way it could take a lot longer to figure out who to kill. I just think we should have discussed this with everyone before you and sgdre decided we were doing a mass-claim.
As for me deciding things, this is the sort of discussion I sort of wanted:
Quote from me »
So long as everyone agrees
Quote from me »
It seems that a mass claim is in order here but I am willing to hear what others think.
I can understand how you see it otherwise but from those posting it looked like peopel had no problem with mass claims.
As for nuetrals, this is not Sin City, and I would expect no more than two or three nuetrals. And no, they usally do not kill but there are roles that might. If a nuetral role could kill I would think there would be no SK. So, no, nuetrals do not usally kill.
And guys, I guess I didn't pay enough attention to the other mafia games, but what's a cult/what does that mean for the town? And do neutral's (not sk) kill people?
A cult is a group that has the ability to recruit other people at night, and wins when everybody left is in the cult, although the specifics can vary wildly. Non-SK neutrals typically do not have the ability to kill people.
Sgdre is far too eager to go through with this mass claim. That alone makes me suspicious of it.
That said, we will get the most out of the claim if we can catch two groups claiming the same clan, and we want the mafia to be forced into one group. The best way to accomplish this is to claim clansmates, then names starting from the smallest groups up to the largest. It should be possible to reason out which group/combination of groups are possibly the mafia. Unfortunately, S_K171 hurt us quite a bit by jumping the gun like that.
This should also has the greatest chance to catch the SK and the possible cult. The SK will be on his own, or his clansmates will know something is fishy. The cult leader will either be on his own or with his new recruit, who can't really be with his former clan. This actually has the hardest time handing us the mafia (out of the three kinds of scum), but does link them all.
Wow, I thought we were out of bad ideas when the whole Jobie thing came up, but it seems sgdre found a way to top it.
Quote from ikerr »
This actually has the hardest time handing us the mafia (out of the three kinds of scum), but does link them all.
Quoted for truth. In games where the SK doesn't just die to randomness, ie a cop getting lucky or something, they can wreak utter havoc, and confuse the issue of who is mafia and who's not. I for one think we do have an SK on our hands because I doubt a vig would be firing blindly with literally no info night one. So, with an SK 99% sure and around 3 mafia likely left, that leaves perhaps 4 scum out of 18 people. Granted, the SK may have trouble with this mass claim coming up, but then all we have is a bunch of groups. Any one of those groups could be mafia. Say we wind up with 6 clans, possible with 20 players. Does the cop just start investigating one from each clan and hope that he's still alive by night 5 or 6 to finish it? What if he hits a godfather and "clears" a group by mistake? Not to mention that the mafia can use the knowledge they gain to play groups off of each other. This has bad idea written all over it, and deserves a Vote sgdre for him coming up with it, and FOS Sorryguyand Chimp for being so willing to go along.
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@Machin Shin - I think you misunderstood me a little. Having the mafia linked is definately a good thing. We can investigate two groups a day (one with cop and one with lynch), and might even be aided by the SK if we can't pick him off right away.
We still need to hear from a bunch of people on this subject (around 7) and I don't want anybody else jumping the gun before more of the town has chimed in.
I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand it could give us a lot of information and possible single out the mafia, however if it backfires on us, we've left the mafia with A LOT of information... I suppose if we do a mass-claim it comes down to who uses the information the most effectively.
We still need to hear from a bunch of people on this subject (around 7) and I don't want anybody else jumping the gun before more of the town has chimed in.
Yeah, we got some mad lurkage happening. Too many players with posts = or < Prizm. . . I am looking at you, creampuffeater (6), Diggy (6), WoLG (5), Matjoeman (4), Enigma91 (3). Enigma, your postcount is = to a guy who died before the game began. You said midterms are over, Welcome to Clan Mafia. . .
Unofficial Vote Count
sgdre - 2 (rianalnn, Machin Shin)
Abandon Hope - 3 (sgdre, AlphaInsidious, Tregit)
With 18/20 alive, 10 to lynch. Please let me know if my notes are incorrect
So, this will probably come as a surprise, but I'm against mass claiming at this time. In trying to formulate my arguments in favor of a mass claim, I tried to come up with various worst case scenarios involving infiltrated/noninfiltrated mafia
The worst possibility I came up with is, what if there are townies either without a clan or as the sole representative of their clan. This would be bad, as they might be indistinguishable from mafia/sks. Taking that one step further, what if it's the power roles alone. This would cause us to misslynch, and make easy targets for the mafia. The benefits may be worth it even in this scenario, but it should be discussed, both in terms of likelihood, and consequences.
I suppose if we do a mass-claim it comes down to who uses the information the most effectively.
Information usually best helps the mafia, because whatever information the town has gained, the mafia can add their private info about who is and isn't mafia. In this case, with a potential threat coming from possibly mulitiple neutrals, that advantage is lessened. But not enough to make a mass claim safe.
Quote from rianalnn »
Please let me know if my notes are incorrect
I've been voting for sgdre for eons (post 88), it's not surprising you missed it.
Unofficial Vote Count
sgdre - 3 (Abandon Hope, rianalnn, Machin Shin)
Abandon Hope - 3 (sgdre, AlphaInsidious, Tregit)
With 18/20 alive, 10 to lynch. Please let me know if my notes are incorrect
Okay don't listen to anything I posted last night as I was somewhat drunk and wasn't really thinking straight.
So townies can trust their clanmates. That's good. So we number claim. This will allow us to figure out if there are one-ofs. I say that people claim in a specific order first, and after those few people ONLY CLAIM IF NONE OF YOUR CLANMATES HAVE CLAIMED NUMBERS YET. We'll see where this leaves us. We can a) have too many numbers and we'll know if there are 1-ofs and b) other stuff (I still don't feel too good as of now).
So townies can trust their clanmates. That's good. So we number claim. This will allow us to figure out if there are one-ofs. I say that people claim in a specific order first, and after those few people ONLY CLAIM IF NONE OF YOUR CLANMATES HAVE CLAIMED NUMBERS YET. We'll see where this leaves us. We can a) have too many numbers and we'll know if there are 1-ofs and b) other stuff (I still don't feel too good as of now).
I think that was proposed early in the day. That may help us but it does give the mafia some information. Also it does not allow us to break the game like a mass-claim might but I think I could get on-board with that.
I still think that mass-claims are a good idea, I think it helps us more than mafia but Treigit makes some good points. Also it is possible that the mafia lied about being in Jobie's clan in order to lead us down the mass-claim route. For now we have to do something, as we really do not have any suspects, but I can get on board with mmod's plan.
I definitely should have made the Role PMs more clear.
The mafia are a clan, like any other. Inspections will only reveal town or mafia, not the clan name. If someone is nightkilled or lynched, their clan will be revealed UNLESS they're mafia.
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Okay I'm all for mass claiming at this point. Mafia = one clan. Therefore we should all claim clan members. Mafia will either a) stick together and try and get lucky and survive or b) claim one-ofs. Therefore we lynch all one-of's and then go about investigating/lynching one person from each clan.
Okay I'm all for mass claiming at this point. Mafia = one clan. Therefore we should all claim clan members. Mafia will either a) stick together and try and get lucky and survive or b) claim one-ofs. Therefore we lynch all one-of's and then go about investigating/lynching one person from each clan.
Seeing as I have no clan mates I do not support that plan at all, but hey, that is just me. Seeing as Prizm just said they were all one clan, for some reason, we are going to be claiming something, if it is numbers or not. So I will say that now. I can claim more later, I am at school now, but that plan does not seem good to me.
I'm fine with this mass-claim, and have been...especially if the mafia are all in one clan, it cannot hurt the town, and will most likely draw scum out..
-Alpha
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Then you're nuetral or mafia. I'm going with mafia.
Oh my. Where do we go from here? The game certainly seems breakable, but I think it's a step too far to start lynching everyone without a clan. Ever since we learned we could trust our clanmates, I've been far more worried about neutrals than the mafia.
If the clam continues, we'll probably be able to take out the mafia eventually. But in the mean time we'll probably find alot of our power roles in individuals without clans. Especially the cop. They'll most likely die. Lynching the individual clans could take a while and have a serious cost. In the mean time, the serial killer runs wild, and a cult could grow. The mafia no longer factor into severely negative scenarios, but neutrals do.
The way I see it, a mass claim will definitly give us the mafia, eventually. But it doesn't win us the game. So I say no mass claim. Not today at least. However, I won't refuse if a mass claim is the town's decision. Instead of being solely negative, the mass claim would just make things... different.
@MMoD: Good grief, have some patience. I'll post if I see fit, but only after thinking things through. You should take time to do so as well. unFOS: Chimpanzee (it was old) FOS: mystery meat of doom. Slow down. Please.
Alot of things SorryGuy has said before doesn't sit well with me. This only cinches the fact that I don't think he's pro-town (okay, he could be cult leader or soemthing). How I vote is my choice. I'm hardly speeding things up by putting down the first vote. I can easily retract it if we have a better lynch target.
The town wins when we kill all the mafia right? So if there was a cult, we still would have won since the mafia are dead. Prizm said that investigations only reveal town or mafia, so either he forgot neutral or we have none.
This is another reason we should probably lynch one-ofs. They are most likely going to be nuetral, and we will lynch any roles that are potentially harmful towards town.
And if you're still scared about cult, think of it this way. The cult leader (if he/she exists) most likely recruited a townie first night, therefore if/when we mass claim, we'll have outed the leader since the recruitee would be condemning himself if he claimed to be the cult's clanmate (his real clanmates would tattle).
Alot of things SorryGuy has said before doesn't sit well with me. This only cinches the fact that I don't think he's pro-town (okay, he could be cult leader or soemthing).
I agree with you that SorryGuy seems anti-town, but thats not the direct cause and effect relationship you cited when you voted for him. Hence the FOS.
As for the other points you made, I just can't refute them. All I have now is my gut instinct that mass claims are bad. Prizm is not an idiot, there is something to mess this all up. I'm not sure of it, but I am terrified of it. Again, I'll go with the mass claim willingly if that's what the town wants, but I'm against it on principle.
Sorry about the clam last post. Did you know that giant clams of the arctic variety can grow to be over 300 years old? I read it at least ten years ago, so don't lynch me if I'm wrong.
I like to eat clams. Maybe when I grow up I'll be rich enough to afford a giant clam. Yum.
I still think that mass claim should be the way to go even though there is a chance Prizm put in countermeasures (My paranoid side is getting through). Maybe not today, but tomorrow. Would you be willing to agree to a soft number claim first?
The town wins when we kill all the mafia right? So if there was a cult, we still would have won since the mafia are dead. Prizm said that investigations only reveal town or mafia, so either he forgot neutral or we have none
So then what happened night one with 2 kills? I refuse to believe that we had a vig who decided to take roughly a 1 in 5 chance of hitting mafia by firing randomly. The only alternative to a dumb vig there is an SK or some other kind of neutral.
I agree with Abandon that we're more likely to just isolate town power roles, possibly mafia, and let neutrals wreak havoc with this claim. My vote stands on sgdre for starting this whole stupid mess to begin with, and I'll FOS MMoD for being in such a hurry to follow through with a bad idea.
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MMoD, as Abandon Hope just said, you need to seriously slow down. Sorry Guy coming forward doesn't mean he's anti town. It just means that Prizm took some steps to stop mass claim from breaking the game. What I wonder, is are they sufficient?
Lets say we started with 14 town, 4 mafia, 1 SK, 1 Cult (first, I'm pulling those numbers out of my ass, but do they seem reasonable?)
I'm not so sure we have a cult, but we should go with the worst case scenario.
now we would have 12 tow, 3 mafia, 1 sk, 2 cult
If all our power roles, plus one (again, making it up but seems fair) are clanless, that would put us at 9 people claiming clans (though one of these would be an infiltrator for the cult) and potentially 9 people claiming to be alone. We've now cut our suspect pool in half. (Though this makes a cult into a major danger.)
If the mafia does claim a clan, we'd have 6 alone roles, the majority of which would be pro town, and three or four clans (one of which is mafia). Here our inspectors (already in danger) would be torn between investigating clans (which has a greater effect as far as cleared/convicted individuals) or inspecting singles (which has a higher success rate).
The situation gets even more convoluted if a portion of the mafia claims to be affiliated, while one (or more) is alone.
I think before we start claiming clan names or clan mates, each clan larger than one person should say their size. (With the only one person from each clan saying anything.) This would give us an idea on the number of singles without isolating them quite yet. Then if we like the numbers we can go through with full clan claims.
I don't see how we're isolating the power roles. Claiming your clanmates won't isolate anything but the clans.
I agree that at first I saw an opportunity to break the game in the town's favour, but after a couple of posts I realized that it wasn't AS good an opportunity as it could've been, so therefore I said that we should probably soft-claim first. This way we know the numbers, and if there are alot of individuals or not.
What I'm saying, and I'm pretty sure it's what Abandon Hope is saying too, is that what if, as a counter measure to a mass claim breaking the game, some or all of the town power roles are all in the same clan, or in 1 person clans? Then what we've done with this claim is point them out to the mafia/SK/whoever and that means trouble. This whole "let's claim so we win" gets a whole lot less likely without a cop, for example. For example, Sorryguy claiming to be alone in his clan means he's either telling the truth and town, telling the truth and mafia, or lying and mafia. In either mafia case, we don't learn anything about anybody else by lynching him, cause clan isnt' revealed, but if he's town, we might lynch him just because there's technically a 2/3 probability that he's mafia in that situation. I think any kind of claim at this point causes more problems than it solves.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
I kinda liked it when Abandon Hope said that info benifits the mafia more than the town. That made me chuckle on the inside. (hint: why would we talk at all if it benifited the mafia more? Also, see silent mafia on scum.)
Here is my thought process behind the claiming clan names only.
1) It gives the mafia a lot of room to screw up. They could claim a clan name that somone else is a part of --> them getting lynched.
2) Even if the claim doesnt DIRECTLY lead to the lynch of a bunch of scum, it makes townies SO much easier to clear. As soon as one townie in a clan is killed, the rest become insta-cleared. This in its self seems like a big enough edge to make the claim worthwhile.
3) A bunch of ppl will be initially cleared. There are several clans which I would feel very comfortable as viewing as pro-town for reasons that I would rather hold onto for now (one of which is the Gaymers). These clans are also EXTREMELY likely to be present, so it would be a huge risk for the scum to try to claim them --> a bunch of cleared townies.
Im am not saying that this claim will necessarily break this game open (although it might), I am just saying that it gives the town a HUGE edge.
Also, we should really stop worrying about a cult. If one exists, we can worry about it when a dead cultist turns up, or we have a big enough lead over the scum that we have nothing better to do.
ALSO, for those of you who are reluctant to follow my lead because you think I am scum (I will gladly admit to leading the town through what I believe to be the correct course), think about how I wouldve known what Prizm's response to my PM would be, or why I would want to reveal that. Then take a second to think if that explanation REALLY makes sense.
At the moment I'm pretty sure he is a neutral, and possibly the SK. Since we know that there has to be at least an SK in this game and that there aren't any infiltrators then any neutrals would have to be clanless. Before going any further with claims, I think we should get a full roleclaim from SorryGuy.
I'm still for mass claiming. Say we have some neutrals. The mafia and sk kills each night, which is basically the same as clearing 2 clans (around 3-5 people I'm guessing). We're lynching people too + cop invesetigation makes it even quicker for us to break thsi game open. Even if cop is dead then its a fair trade. If we mass claim today the mafia won't have been able to discuss what best to claim.
Say whatever you want. I strongly believe mass claim is most effective if we do it today.
I really hate it when the system boots me after a long post.
Seeing as I have no clan mates I do not support that plan at all, but hey, that is just me.
I had a sarcastic and better-natured remark before, but I'm not in the mood anymore. This was stupid. We don't need people taking it upon themselves to start the claim. S_K171 was bad enough, but now the mafia have this to work with as well. Nobody else say anything about your clan affiliations unless specifically asked.
And don't get into the mindset that it will come out eventually, and so might as well be out now. The order matters a great deal, in both what information gets revealed first and who reveals first. Don't just feed the mafia outs.
Claiming clan sizes first is one of the worst moves we can do. It has all the downsides of the full claim, but without any of the upsides. All it does is narrow down the possible power-roles and tell the mafia the size of the clan(s) to claim in order to not seem suspicious. This is not a good thing.
I was purposely avoiding discussing clanless townies for much the same reason. I would expect there there are some, but the mafia now have that as a possible play to hide with.
What should work best is to have a dynamic claim order, where the person claiming says ony one of their clanmates, or no clan. This gives the mafia minimal extra information to work with based on the previous claims, and doesn't let the early claimers make plays based on the lateness of some of their fellows. A random order might even work best with this, just to ensure that the mafia cannot make any gambits without pulling a random friends into it.
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Let's get a clear mority bfore we like. c liam adn suff
Yes, please.
@Chimp: So you think we should claim clanmates or what clan we are in? They have more or less the same implications but are slightly different.
Clanmates will become obv.
I think that Abandon hope should start, and that whoever claims should pick the next to claim. Agreed?
That works for me...and yes, that is sweet drunk typing!
-Alpha
I repeat, if we do this, ONLY CLAIM YOUR OWN CLAN. NOT CLANMATES.
I am a member of the Called.
Blast...well, does that screw anything major up, or can abandon just go next (assuming he complies...)
-Alpha
Crap. Sorry bout that.....Got a little excited there. My apologies.
NO ONE SHOULD CLAIM UNTIL AFTER ABANDON HOPE.
other important points about your claim
1) you should claim ONLY your clan
2) DO NOT claim clanmates
3) DO indicate the next person to claim
4) DO NOT claim out of order
5) DO NOT post a response to someones claim until ALL claims are finished.
So long as everyone agrees, which I do, there is no reason for there to be any other discussion going on in here.
I thought I made it perfectly clear that I wasn't going along with anymore of your crazy plans. However, things have changed, so this takes some thought.
(What happens after we all claim clans? How do we know which clan is mafia? We test them one by one. It doesn't matter if we miss a few times, in the end all the mafia will die.
If the mafia was the only threat I was worried about, it would seem like a good idea. But consider the serial killer, a cult, and other neutrals and things get messy. Prism isn't an idiot, it isn't this easy. In the end I'm still against a mass claim.)
Nope, I don't like the logic of it. It looks good on the surface, but it will hurt us all. Plus I'm not following sgdre's plans anymore. Just like I predicted, he's pushed a mass claim back to vialbility (albeit with help from Prizm). There should be no mass claim, so I do not agree.
Claiming Clan NAMES seems dumb - we can't catch anyone lying about their clan if all the clan names are known.
I want a chance to look at it from all angles, but my impulse is that claiming clanmates should be ok, if we
NO he did not. What Prizm said leaves plenty of room for 1-of clans of festering evil. Between this + barning sgdre, you get a FOS:SorryGuy
Prizm changed that after role pms were sent, + I pm'd him asking if we were playing clanmates as mason roles.
I did pm Prizm, as I said above, but I also asked him to clarify if MAFIA is Jobie's clan name or what. I'll send again, since he mass-replied in thread but didn't cover that topic. . .
FoS: Sorryguy and sgdre for all the assumptions and haste.
FoS: Abandon Hope for refusing the possibilty of pming Prizm (even though it turned out unnecessary, and you seem fishy to me, right now anyways.
We should probably all discuss the idea of a mass-claim and how to claim. Perhaps even vote on it, because this is a major decision. I understand moving quickly may catch the mafia in more lies, but making serious mistakes or being impulsive will only hurt us in the end.
banner by: Alex+
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So you think that the mafia is each in their own clan with no esle in it? They are all mini-SKs that can communicate? This does not seem to make much sense to me.
What I'm saying is we don't know. Maybe they're in clans with neutrals? If it's more split up that way it could take a lot longer to figure out who to kill. I just think we should have discussed this with everyone before you and sgdre decided we were doing a mass-claim.
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As for me deciding things, this is the sort of discussion I sort of wanted:
I can understand how you see it otherwise but from those posting it looked like peopel had no problem with mass claims.
As for nuetrals, this is not Sin City, and I would expect no more than two or three nuetrals. And no, they usally do not kill but there are roles that might. If a nuetral role could kill I would think there would be no SK. So, no, nuetrals do not usally kill.
A cult is a group that has the ability to recruit other people at night, and wins when everybody left is in the cult, although the specifics can vary wildly. Non-SK neutrals typically do not have the ability to kill people.
Sgdre is far too eager to go through with this mass claim. That alone makes me suspicious of it.
That said, we will get the most out of the claim if we can catch two groups claiming the same clan, and we want the mafia to be forced into one group. The best way to accomplish this is to claim clansmates, then names starting from the smallest groups up to the largest. It should be possible to reason out which group/combination of groups are possibly the mafia. Unfortunately, S_K171 hurt us quite a bit by jumping the gun like that.
This should also has the greatest chance to catch the SK and the possible cult. The SK will be on his own, or his clansmates will know something is fishy. The cult leader will either be on his own or with his new recruit, who can't really be with his former clan. This actually has the hardest time handing us the mafia (out of the three kinds of scum), but does link them all.
Quoted for truth. In games where the SK doesn't just die to randomness, ie a cop getting lucky or something, they can wreak utter havoc, and confuse the issue of who is mafia and who's not. I for one think we do have an SK on our hands because I doubt a vig would be firing blindly with literally no info night one. So, with an SK 99% sure and around 3 mafia likely left, that leaves perhaps 4 scum out of 18 people. Granted, the SK may have trouble with this mass claim coming up, but then all we have is a bunch of groups. Any one of those groups could be mafia. Say we wind up with 6 clans, possible with 20 players. Does the cop just start investigating one from each clan and hope that he's still alive by night 5 or 6 to finish it? What if he hits a godfather and "clears" a group by mistake? Not to mention that the mafia can use the knowledge they gain to play groups off of each other. This has bad idea written all over it, and deserves a Vote sgdre for him coming up with it, and FOS Sorryguy and Chimp for being so willing to go along.
We still need to hear from a bunch of people on this subject (around 7) and I don't want anybody else jumping the gun before more of the town has chimed in.
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Unofficial Vote Count
sgdre - 2 (rianalnn, Machin Shin)
Abandon Hope - 3 (sgdre, AlphaInsidious, Tregit)
With 18/20 alive, 10 to lynch. Please let me know if my notes are incorrect
So read. If you agree with something, say so. Adding isn't important, participation so others can get a read on you is. C'mon now.
*waves to Treigit*
The worst possibility I came up with is, what if there are townies either without a clan or as the sole representative of their clan. This would be bad, as they might be indistinguishable from mafia/sks. Taking that one step further, what if it's the power roles alone. This would cause us to misslynch, and make easy targets for the mafia. The benefits may be worth it even in this scenario, but it should be discussed, both in terms of likelihood, and consequences.
I've been voting for sgdre for eons (post 88), it's not surprising you missed it.
Unofficial Vote Count
sgdre - 3 (Abandon Hope, rianalnn, Machin Shin)
Abandon Hope - 3 (sgdre, AlphaInsidious, Tregit)
With 18/20 alive, 10 to lynch. Please let me know if my notes are incorrect
So townies can trust their clanmates. That's good. So we number claim. This will allow us to figure out if there are one-ofs. I say that people claim in a specific order first, and after those few people ONLY CLAIM IF NONE OF YOUR CLANMATES HAVE CLAIMED NUMBERS YET. We'll see where this leaves us. We can a) have too many numbers and we'll know if there are 1-ofs and b) other stuff (I still don't feel too good as of now).
I think that was proposed early in the day. That may help us but it does give the mafia some information. Also it does not allow us to break the game like a mass-claim might but I think I could get on-board with that.
I still think that mass-claims are a good idea, I think it helps us more than mafia but Treigit makes some good points. Also it is possible that the mafia lied about being in Jobie's clan in order to lead us down the mass-claim route. For now we have to do something, as we really do not have any suspects, but I can get on board with mmod's plan.
The mafia are a clan, like any other. Inspections will only reveal town or mafia, not the clan name. If someone is nightkilled or lynched, their clan will be revealed UNLESS they're mafia.
Strengthen my steel should I falter
Smite my back should I flee
Save my soul should I fall
Official Recovering World of Warcraft Addict of The Ivory Tower
Seeing as I have no clan mates I do not support that plan at all, but hey, that is just me. Seeing as Prizm just said they were all one clan, for some reason, we are going to be claiming something, if it is numbers or not. So I will say that now. I can claim more later, I am at school now, but that plan does not seem good to me.
I see you Abandon and AI. Post something. Do you want the mass-claim to go?
-Alpha
Oh my. Where do we go from here? The game certainly seems breakable, but I think it's a step too far to start lynching everyone without a clan. Ever since we learned we could trust our clanmates, I've been far more worried about neutrals than the mafia.
If the clam continues, we'll probably be able to take out the mafia eventually. But in the mean time we'll probably find alot of our power roles in individuals without clans. Especially the cop. They'll most likely die. Lynching the individual clans could take a while and have a serious cost. In the mean time, the serial killer runs wild, and a cult could grow. The mafia no longer factor into severely negative scenarios, but neutrals do.
The way I see it, a mass claim will definitly give us the mafia, eventually. But it doesn't win us the game. So I say no mass claim. Not today at least. However, I won't refuse if a mass claim is the town's decision. Instead of being solely negative, the mass claim would just make things... different.
@MMoD: Good grief, have some patience. I'll post if I see fit, but only after thinking things through. You should take time to do so as well. unFOS: Chimpanzee (it was old) FOS: mystery meat of doom. Slow down. Please.
The town wins when we kill all the mafia right? So if there was a cult, we still would have won since the mafia are dead. Prizm said that investigations only reveal town or mafia, so either he forgot neutral or we have none.
This is another reason we should probably lynch one-ofs. They are most likely going to be nuetral, and we will lynch any roles that are potentially harmful towards town.
And if you're still scared about cult, think of it this way. The cult leader (if he/she exists) most likely recruited a townie first night, therefore if/when we mass claim, we'll have outed the leader since the recruitee would be condemning himself if he claimed to be the cult's clanmate (his real clanmates would tattle).
As for the other points you made, I just can't refute them. All I have now is my gut instinct that mass claims are bad. Prizm is not an idiot, there is something to mess this all up. I'm not sure of it, but I am terrified of it. Again, I'll go with the mass claim willingly if that's what the town wants, but I'm against it on principle.
Sorry about the clam last post. Did you know that giant clams of the arctic variety can grow to be over 300 years old? I read it at least ten years ago, so don't lynch me if I'm wrong.
I still think that mass claim should be the way to go even though there is a chance Prizm put in countermeasures (My paranoid side is getting through). Maybe not today, but tomorrow. Would you be willing to agree to a soft number claim first?
So then what happened night one with 2 kills? I refuse to believe that we had a vig who decided to take roughly a 1 in 5 chance of hitting mafia by firing randomly. The only alternative to a dumb vig there is an SK or some other kind of neutral.
I agree with Abandon that we're more likely to just isolate town power roles, possibly mafia, and let neutrals wreak havoc with this claim. My vote stands on sgdre for starting this whole stupid mess to begin with, and I'll FOS MMoD for being in such a hurry to follow through with a bad idea.
Lets say we started with 14 town, 4 mafia, 1 SK, 1 Cult (first, I'm pulling those numbers out of my ass, but do they seem reasonable?)
I'm not so sure we have a cult, but we should go with the worst case scenario.
now we would have 12 tow, 3 mafia, 1 sk, 2 cult
If all our power roles, plus one (again, making it up but seems fair) are clanless, that would put us at 9 people claiming clans (though one of these would be an infiltrator for the cult) and potentially 9 people claiming to be alone. We've now cut our suspect pool in half. (Though this makes a cult into a major danger.)
If the mafia does claim a clan, we'd have 6 alone roles, the majority of which would be pro town, and three or four clans (one of which is mafia). Here our inspectors (already in danger) would be torn between investigating clans (which has a greater effect as far as cleared/convicted individuals) or inspecting singles (which has a higher success rate).
The situation gets even more convoluted if a portion of the mafia claims to be affiliated, while one (or more) is alone.
I think before we start claiming clan names or clan mates, each clan larger than one person should say their size. (With the only one person from each clan saying anything.) This would give us an idea on the number of singles without isolating them quite yet. Then if we like the numbers we can go through with full clan claims.
I agree that at first I saw an opportunity to break the game in the town's favour, but after a couple of posts I realized that it wasn't AS good an opportunity as it could've been, so therefore I said that we should probably soft-claim first. This way we know the numbers, and if there are alot of individuals or not.
Here is my thought process behind the claiming clan names only.
1) It gives the mafia a lot of room to screw up. They could claim a clan name that somone else is a part of --> them getting lynched.
2) Even if the claim doesnt DIRECTLY lead to the lynch of a bunch of scum, it makes townies SO much easier to clear. As soon as one townie in a clan is killed, the rest become insta-cleared. This in its self seems like a big enough edge to make the claim worthwhile.
3) A bunch of ppl will be initially cleared. There are several clans which I would feel very comfortable as viewing as pro-town for reasons that I would rather hold onto for now (one of which is the Gaymers). These clans are also EXTREMELY likely to be present, so it would be a huge risk for the scum to try to claim them --> a bunch of cleared townies.
Im am not saying that this claim will necessarily break this game open (although it might), I am just saying that it gives the town a HUGE edge.
Also, we should really stop worrying about a cult. If one exists, we can worry about it when a dead cultist turns up, or we have a big enough lead over the scum that we have nothing better to do.
ALSO, for those of you who are reluctant to follow my lead because you think I am scum (I will gladly admit to leading the town through what I believe to be the correct course), think about how I wouldve known what Prizm's response to my PM would be, or why I would want to reveal that. Then take a second to think if that explanation REALLY makes sense.
At the moment I'm pretty sure he is a neutral, and possibly the SK. Since we know that there has to be at least an SK in this game and that there aren't any infiltrators then any neutrals would have to be clanless. Before going any further with claims, I think we should get a full roleclaim from SorryGuy.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Say whatever you want. I strongly believe mass claim is most effective if we do it today.
I had a sarcastic and better-natured remark before, but I'm not in the mood anymore. This was stupid. We don't need people taking it upon themselves to start the claim. S_K171 was bad enough, but now the mafia have this to work with as well. Nobody else say anything about your clan affiliations unless specifically asked.
And don't get into the mindset that it will come out eventually, and so might as well be out now. The order matters a great deal, in both what information gets revealed first and who reveals first. Don't just feed the mafia outs.
Claiming clan sizes first is one of the worst moves we can do. It has all the downsides of the full claim, but without any of the upsides. All it does is narrow down the possible power-roles and tell the mafia the size of the clan(s) to claim in order to not seem suspicious. This is not a good thing.
I was purposely avoiding discussing clanless townies for much the same reason. I would expect there there are some, but the mafia now have that as a possible play to hide with.
What should work best is to have a dynamic claim order, where the person claiming says ony one of their clanmates, or no clan. This gives the mafia minimal extra information to work with based on the previous claims, and doesn't let the early claimers make plays based on the lateness of some of their fellows. A random order might even work best with this, just to ensure that the mafia cannot make any gambits without pulling a random friends into it.