sgdre seems to have backed off a bit, so I will go ahead and unvote but I still disagree with him about having Jobie's clan claim. I'm at work, so I'll post more later.
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I'm torn between the two. It is a good point Abandon Hope is making by saying if the clanmates do claim, then the cop is most likely going to inspect them, which, if they are town, would be wasted investigations as only the cop would know the result, and would not share it. I'm 90% sure that there are infiltrators. Mass claiming would break the game and that never leads to much fun.
If there are say, 4 mafia, then I'd say three of them are in different clans and the other one is doubled up, as to have it not predictable.
Oh, I was just thinking about if anything I learned in Newb 5 could help here, and at this point I'm really thinking that we shouldn't have anybody claim at this point. Like Abandon and MMoD have said, more than likely this would lead the cop to investigate, and whether it's townie or a godfather, which are the only ones likely to fess up, the cop will have wasted an investigation. Also, he can't really clear either of those in that case, because we have to consider the mafia having a roleblocker. I didn't last game, and as such was handicapped as cop after night 1 for the rest of the game. Keep that in mind.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
the cop is most likely going to inspect them, which, if they are town, would be wasted investigations as only the cop would know the result.
Within my excessively convoluted case analysis I suggested that if we go with the claiming plan we could tell the cop to investigate one of the claimers with orders to only reveal himself if the inspection turns up mafia. If he doesn't say anything we know that the inspection turned up town. That way we only need to reveal the cop if it gets us a mafia lynch and we can know the result of the inspection either way.
I'm not sure we should go with the claiming, but if we do, the inspecting will not be a problem.
That's a wasted investigation then. That's the whole point of it. I think it's mroe likely for them to be town, so therefore if the cop investigated them then it would be a wasted use.
It's not really any more wasted than any other inspection that comes up townie.
Also, this is probably meaningless, but I think I ought to point out Project Mayhem's current clan thread title.
[thread=27359] [Project Mayhem] Salvation's mafia, with added Soap[/thread]
Seems strangely relevant but most likely coincidental.
Abandon Hope, your argument seems to be that discovering the mafia was in a clan with townies will cause the town to mistrust their clanmates. Frankly if others in my clan can be mafia I don't want to trust them implicitly.
You're right, that is part of my argument, but not all of it. A claim in Jobies clan will not resolve the issue of trust among clanmates. If anything it will convolute it. Trusting your clanmates or not is your own decision, and nothing anyone says will resolve that.
Quote from Treigit »
Therefor, I think we should discover info regarding the number of clans and sizes before the day ends too. While I'm normally opposed to mass claims, soft or otherwise, I think this will be invaluable to us at a latter stage and, as I say, meaningless if the mafia has a chance to discuss it first.
The mafia arn't going to stand for census. We arn't going to get accurate numbers with this claim. We won't know who is lying, we will get inacuracies. The mafia know who is lying and will get accurate information. It will be the end. A mass claim will lead to the destruction of the town, even if it's a soft claim. It's a really bad idea.
@Chimpanzee: The inspection after a Jobie claim is wasted as it is almost guranteed to turn up townie. I think we should take our chances elsewhere. As for the Project Mayhem thing, they are Project Mayhem, this probably isn't anything. Anyhow, you seem less suspicous than at first, so UnFOS:Chimpanzee.
The mafia arn't going to stand for census. We arn't going to get accurate numbers with this claim. We won't know who is lying, we will get inacuracies. The mafia know who is lying and will get accurate information. It will be the end. A mass claim will lead to the destruction of the town, even if it's a soft claim. It's a really bad idea.
There are definetly ways in which the mafia can lie during this stage (assuming we go through with number claims) to sow confusion. (Please do not go into specifics on the best way for them to do this, as we may want to go forward with the plan. *I really wish I'd kept that bit about catching the GF to myself.*)However I feel that this will ultimately require lying and, as I've noticed, many lies show several days after they are first stated, and catch scum then. I'm also not sure how you think the mafia could use this info to hurt the town. (Here specifics would be great, the mafia will figure it out eventually, and then we'd be screwed.)
I don't think the number claim would help us much. If we are going to do any soft claims it should be the Jobie claim, but, as I've said a couple times now, I'm not sure whether we should even do that.
No, the only way we should go through with the mass number claim at this point is if most of the town honestly believes that it would break the game, which I just can't see it doing. There are too many ways for it to go wrong, and it gives us remarkably little information. If it doesn't break the game, we learn nothing. The mafia learn the best way to cleave the mason groups out of the game, leaving a very rough late game for any townies having to claim.
Just to clarify, I am not in favor of some major mass-claim (yet). I am still heavily in favor of Jobie's hyypothetical clanmates claiming for the reasons I have already outlined.
I really don't know much of what happened concerning Xenophire's actions just before he was banned, and am not claiming to. I was using a turn of phrase to refer to the founding of mtgsalvation. I'm sorry for any confusion.
No, no. It caused no confusion. More of the joke to those who may know. The two members of the Called probably understand.
@Chimp: Stop posting so much.
Quote from creampuffeater »
ok sorry for not posting, but my computer got a very bad virus and right now I am on my dads comp. not much so far but fos: anyone talking about jobies clan claiming/not claiming I find that very scummy as we do not need a semi mass claim already.
Um...yeah...That is worth a vote. Vote:creampuffeater. What is it you are talking about? Discussing the claim is scummy? I guess this is a twenty-man mafia because you are the only one not talking about it. It is part of the game, and part of the debate. You have to discuss it regardless of what side you are. Please explain yourself.
While I understand what I perceive was creampuffeater's position, that is a bit scummy the way he worded it. I read that as him saying that those who brought up the claim idea were scummy, in light of the last part "we do not need a semi mass claim already". That deserves a FOS creampuffeater but I don't quite think it deserves a vote. I think it was just poorly worded. The whole post does seem a bit rushed.
Anywho, it seems that more people than not agree that any kind of claim at this point is a bad idea., although I'm still not sure we've heard from everybody. I still think that the only people who might possibly claim they're in Jobie's clan are either town or the godfather, and we've been over this part of the argument. I don't think it really gains the town anything.
At this point, people should have checked in and posted at least once. FOS everybody who hasn't posted yet. Lurking is scummy. Don't do it.
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Machin, if a townie claims to be part of the clan than we gain information. Dont be ridiculous. It confirms a popular theory that the mafia are spread among the clans. Also, it doesnt even matter if the info doesnt help us immidiately, there is still almost no chance that it will help the mafia (they already know the answer).
Maybe the idea is being opposed because the mafia are afraid of what the town may discover? I dont really understand any logical reason for not wanting the claim to happen.
Well, I am not one of Jobie's clanmates. I fail to see why this information would help the mafia in any way. Its been said a million times over by now, but the mafia knows who Jobie's clanmates are, since either the mafia are his clanmates, or Jobie would have given them that information. In formation helps, even if it doesn't directly catch mafia. The more information we have, the more traps we set to catch lies, and the more lies we catch, the more scum hang. We can safely get this information out there, but, we cannot jump to too many conclusions. The purpose of getting Jobie's mates to claim should be information gathering, not necessarily conclusion-drawing - yet.
I'm still against a mass claim, but I think we've pretty much ruled that out anyways.
As for Jobie's clanmates, I'm not sure but I think it would be helpful for them to claim. It would give us the same information the mafia already has and the cop could investigate. Unless someone else seems more suspicious before then, who else should they look into? It can't be more of a waste than investigating a random person and having them be town. Plus, if Jobie's clanmates are town, the cop doesn't need to reveal him/herself. I don't see much harm in finding this out now, rather than later. And at best, we find out a mafia clan member and lynch 'em. Also, I am not one of Jobie's clan members.
Okay, okay..I'm here. Sorry about the delay..a bit busy with hosting my own game and such, and school...and I'd rather not bore you. However, I will be soon reading up on the thread and will have more to post later.
-Alpha
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
I dont really understand any logical reason for not wanting the claim to happen.
Heh. That much is obvious. I've given my best shot at explaining my disaproval of this claim. For my reasoning see post 92. It is also obvious that my arguments cannot help you see the light. I could repeat myself often as you do, but what would that accomplish? If there is anyone elso who could make my logic clearer, please do. If this is simply a contest of wills, I concede. You're stubborness in pushing for this claim is greater than my stubborness against it. I am content to refuse to participate in the claiming.
If no-one claims, we gain the knowledge that our clanmates can be trusted, and possibly break the game. This seems pretty win-win, even if the first win is a rather small victory.
Quote from Chimpanzee »
.A. if no one claims then the infiltrator theory is wrong and we can probably flat out win easily via a mass claim.
What IS this? Just because ONE mafia appears to be clanless, we should assume the whole gang is like that? What an ignorant + damaging assumption for us to make. FOS:ikerr+Chimpanzee for suggesting that the shark channel has no sharks because we can't see them (+ then suggesting we go swim, you crazy monkey!).
Quote from mystery meat of doom »
I'm 90% sure that there are infiltrators.
Are you just pulling that number out of your bum or do you have something you want to tell the rest of us
Quote from sgdre »
it doesnt even matter if the info doesnt help us immidiately, there is still almost no chance that it will help the mafia
Quote from S_K171 »
I fail to see why this information would help the mafia in any way
Great, the best-case scenario here is that we will know our clanmates can't be trusted. . . right now, if the mafia have an untargetable or negative-if-targeted role, + if the mood of the town turns receptive, they have a nice place to put that role. . . as well as sewing paranoia among everyone else! Which would DRAMATICALLY affect how I would proceed. Who's the mason traitor? Bad times.
I'll UNVOTE for now, but you guys. . . yeesh.
One last thing - it's been 36 hours. I can't tolerate lurking in mafia games. It pains me to no end. Enigma91 (Last Activity: Today 12:43 PM), Lord rahl (Last Activity: Today 02:53 PM) : Please post or perish.
Yeah. Basically. It's much more likely for the mafia to be infiltrated in different groups as all of them in one clan would be broken for the town. But there is the chance that they are in one group, say, if one of them was untargettable, one was godfather, and the two other ones didn't have protection abilities.
There are still a few people that haven't posted at all or if they have, not much. I'm interested in their opinions on what we should do.
Currently the only options that we have are soft claiming and random lynching. If anyone has any better ideas I'd like to hear them, but if we have to choose from one of those two I think I'd prefer the soft claim.
After the soft claim since we would have more information to work with and possibly more information to gain from the lynch. So, it would still be random, but not as much as bandwagoning right now would be.
I'm torn at this point. I agree with what rianalnn says about the likelyhood of a mafia with a slippery role getting in better with the town after the soft claim, but I'm not sure random bandwagon is the best way to go either.
Maybe if we take another tack. We've been trying to squeeze every last bit of info from Jobie's death, but what about D_M's? We weren't given much, but can anybody think of something that could be helpful concerning him or his clan or something? In this case, it may or may not have been good to start with night, cause we don't seem to be anywhere even in spite of it. Of course, I'm assuming that whoever the cop looked at was town, so I guess that's one person for him/her to check off the list, but that's about it. Anywho, before anybody claims, whether Jobie's clan or not, I think we need to wait for the lurkers. It could be that we need to lynch one of them, just cause.
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I'd be cool with a claim of Jobie's clanmates. Look we're just trying to get info. We shouldn't assume anything about the info just yet, but we will at least know a little more.
I am not in favor of a soft claim (at least a numbers one). The info to the town vs. info to the mafia ratio is just not worth it.
What IS this? Just because ONE mafia appears to be clanless, we should assume the whole gang is like that? What an ignorant + damaging assumption for us to make. FOS:ikerr+Chimpanzee for suggesting that the shark channel has no sharks because we can't see them (+ then suggesting we go swim, you crazy monkey!).
True, I really hadn't considered the case where only some mafia are infiltrators, and Jobie isn't. In that case, a claimed clanmate tells us the same as in the all infiltrated case, and no clansmate just makes it noticably less likely for our clansmates to be mafia. It doesn't change my stance on the issue.
Quote from rianalnn »
as well as sewing paranoia among everyone else! Which would DRAMATICALLY affect how I would proceed. Who's the mason traitor? Bad times.
That paranoia is already there. What we could gain with the claim, is the possible alleviation of that paranoia, by having nobody claim.
Maybe if we take another tack. We've been trying to squeeze every last bit of info from Jobie's death, but what about D_M's? We weren't given much, but can anybody think of something that could be helpful concerning him or his clan or something?
Well before the game I did not expect Gaymers in it as they are not an "official" but I have no problem with it. However what is strange, very actully, is that Goblinboy is listed as a Gaymer, which he is, when he is leader of Ivory Tower. I am sure Ivory Tower is in the game, Prizm has had to put them in. So what does that mean to you? Maybe people's clans are varied to make scum claims easier?
It could be that we need to lynch one of them, just cause.
Or...not? Replacments anyone?
Still waiting for creampuffer although I really just want an explantion, I don't actully want him lynched. Just to clarify.
It would make sense that the mod of this game would include his own clan, especially, but it is just sort of wierd that the leader of the clan isn't listed as Ivory Tower.
I'm thinking that Prizm just went to clan threads and took random names from the members lists. That could easily have resulted in him picking Goblinboy as a Gaymer instead of as a member of Ivory Tower.
I'm thinking that Prizm just went to clan threads and took random names from the members lists. That could easily have resulted in him picking Goblinboy as a Gaymer instead of as a member of Ivory Tower.
Yes but as a member of Ivory Tower he would know he was a member of Ivory Tower too. Why not choose someone more known for posting in gaymers, like MikeyG or Goatachux?
Due to a huge power surge on Sunday, I have had 4 computers at home pretty much destroyed. (motherboard and possibly ram gone on all of them) As such, I only have Internet access at school, so vote counts will be considerably delayed.
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Quote from ljossberir »
Prizm is the key to the greatness of the US!
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If hefner was a rich, gay, playboy and had hot steamy sex with hot guys would you choose him? Of course not, mainly because im a straight male and find that stuff gross.
Stand by my side should I fight
Strengthen my steel should I falter
Smite my back should I flee
Save my soul should I fall
Official Recovering World of Warcraft Addict of The Ivory Tower
It's the best explanation I can come up with. We just have to consider which is more likely: Prizm totally neglected his own clan when designing this game or Prizm selected the leader of his own clan to represent another clan.
I guess there are other scenarios e.g Goblinboy (D_M) was in two clans and only one showed up upon death, but that one is sort of wierd. Why would the clan that's not really an official clan show up?
Edit before posting- Well that sucks. At least now we'll have discussion time after lynching vote but before night.
Good call abandon. Civility is a good thing. That said, I will start to use even larger font if it will help my case.
I am still very very much in favor of the claim. I would encourage people to continue to claim when they realize it is the right move.
Machin, your last post appears to be fishing for a response from the cop. Please stop doing things like this. A cop in this game has almost NO reason to reveal info as he can just share it with clanmates (if he trusts them).
I think that the Jobie claim provides us with an excellent springboard into discussion that is not really open to exploitation by mafia (I am not going to automatically trust or lynch someone who claims, it just gives us some more stuff to talk about), but if that eventually fails, I do have some other stuff that I could bring up (but dont want to obv).
For now... unvote, VOTE Abandon Hope on a hunch. I dont really care if this goes anywhere, just feel like throwing out a vote.
Sgdre, you're being a little over aggressive. Machin's post doesn't seem to be encouraging any form of cop claiming. I don't really know about Abandon Hope, but so far his counter-argument for the claim has been rational.
After combining some of the previous general arguments for the Jobie claim I present to you... a decent argument for it.
If we do this Jobie claim, we don't give anything new to the mafia, but we do give ourselves at least something to work with. We don't have to believe the information necessarily. The least it will do is start some discussion and get the game going in such a way that we can get more meaningful reads off of people. It might even catch us some a scum or two.
Ok, Ill back down from arguing about this and let some other people take up the cause.
Also, I wasnt saying that Machin was necessarily trying to provoke a response from the cop, just that he shouldnt do things like that because it might. I wouldnt have mentioned it if he had not previously been talking about things that the mafia could do (aka coaching the mafia).
It was meant as a general warning that people should think of the implications of what they are saying (especially in regards to possible tactics of the cop, doc, and mafia).
I understnd trying to keep info close to your chest, but there are only two reasons to do that (correct me if I'm wrong):
*To protect power roles- note this includes not mentioning when you're vanilla (which tells where power roles aren't) or when you have some form of killimunity (which makes the scum waste a kill that might otherwise hit a power role).
*To catch scum in their lies.
I don't see how revealing whether someone is in Jobie's clan would accomplish either of these goals. As has already been stated, the mafia already knows who is in Jobie's clan, therefore we're not likely to catch a lie. And I fail to see how clan alignments would reveal anything regarding abilities. (If it does, that means the mafia already know it anyway.)
Please correct me if you see any holes in my logic.
I only commented about the cop because it's generally assumed that a cop coming out to nail scum is ok, and we don't have that, so I assumed the cop didn't nail scum. Of course, as I showed in Newb 5, the cop coming out can in fact suck sometimes when the mafia has a roleblocker. I'm tempted to vote Serge for that, and he's not even in the game.
Also, as far as "coaching the mafia" I'm just kinda trying to think out loud. I feel like then, people are more likely to understand what I'm trying to say, and may be able to point out where I'm wrong or keep parts of my argument if parts are good. I'll be more careful about it, I guess.
Prizm, when you can check this, WellOfLostGnomes, Creampuffeater, Ximbad, Lord rahl, and Enigma91 have 1 or 2 posts, and those are in the confirm part of the thread. They need to be prodded if they haven't, and replacements found if they have been prodded and haven't responded. Lurkers in mafia aren't cool.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
School + Work + Computer problems = WoLG...So yeah, all this speculation is just giving the mafia more information on safe claims, a soft claim of clans could cause them to claim that they are in a clan that hasn't shown up yet, or members of other clans. Or, if there are infiltraitors, then they don't even need to false claim. Regardless, the information of who is in what clan can only help the town, and since the mafia would already know this information, there is no reason not to have everyone claim either: "In a clan, not in a clan" and possibly what clan they are in. (My comp at home isn't working, so thank my sister)
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Still waiting for creampuffer although I really just want an explantion, I don't actully want him lynched. Just to clarify.
Ok I am here and my computer is not fixed (I really hope that my friend guy comes over tomarrow as he couldnt today) That comment was just about how I dont like mass claims of any time (happy at the way random 2 claims came out since I was mafia) but im just trying to say no mass claims yet. It might seem harmless, but they could be distatouris (my spelling is really bad.... (O and look at shaman mafia for claim that was worthless gone bad)) Right now actually, I think it would help if people stopped claiming that they are not in jobies clan because if the mafia are 1 clan (which I think seems more realistic but you never know) we would get no information to help us. Acually I would be happy with a different claim. If you are in Jobies clan say that you are. that would be faster and have less information that it could give out.
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Quote from hotshizzle »
<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
Prizm, when you can check this, WellOfLostGnomes, Creampuffeater, Ximbad, Lord rahl, and Enigma91 have 1 or 2 posts, and those are in the confirm part of the thread. They need to be prodded if they haven't, and replacements found if they have been prodded and haven't responded. Lurkers in mafia aren't cool.
Quoted for truthery, although Gnomes + 'puff have posted, + Ximbad isn't in the player list :confuse:
I too thought it strange that Goblinboy was a Gaymer, when they aren't 'really' a clan. Also he's a mod, but wasn't listed as having any role (of course, neither was Jobie, so maybe Prizm isn't going to hand out role info on dead players ) So, aside from lack of role desciptors, we can see that Prizm was a bit loose in his clan assigning, if nothing else (so I won't be surprised if some RavClans show up).
For now... unvote, VOTE Abandon Hope on a hunch. I dont really care if this goes anywhere, just feel like throwing out a vote.
Sensing weakness sgdre? It's a little late for random voting. Do you have anything solid behind this vote? I occurs to me that as soon as I tried to let things cool down, tried to let them go your way even though I disagree, you voted for me. Do you think you can get a free kill for the mafia because I won't fight back? I thought your actions just might be results of opinionation, but now I am convinced you're mafia.
@Everyone else: Please realise this is not townish behavior. Vote for sgdre until he is lynched or claims. His actions mark him to a degree that merits a lynch.
Actually, that was my exact reasoning. (not really)
I think I said that I felt like throwing out a vote. If anything serious comes of it I can defend it and wont let u get lynched unless more evidence comes about.
Its not really that big a deal. If I wanted a wagon on you I wouldve made a cohesive argument for why I thought you were scummy. I am just trying to state an opinion (namely, that I think u are scum on a hunch).
WOLG: Even if the mafia did claim clan nobody else has, it doesn't matter. It just changes the name. (This is all assuming the mafia are in one clan, because if they're infiltrators, the point is moot). If the mafia is really clan name A, but they claim to be Clan name B, they still have to claim to be in the same clan. I mean, how many mafia can there be? One is dead already, and if we assume about 33% of the game is mafia (I'm getting this number from Puzzle's thread "balancing a mafia setup" at http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=27817 since it seems reasonable), so about 6 mafia max, right? So 5 left, max. I don't know about you, but my clan has more than two people in it, so the mafia has to either all claim the same clan, make two dinky and obviously false clans, or make one four man clan and leave a sacrifical lamb outside. If they all claim the same clan, even under a name other than what Prizm gave them, it doesn't matter. They'll still all be grouped together, and when one dies, the rest go boom too. That leaves only forming one clan and leaving someone out as dead meat, which means we get a mafia lynch. Then, all the mafia are together. Sucks to be them, No?
Of course, the mafia are probably not all in one clan for precisely that reason: mass claim pwnz mafiosos. They're probably infiltrators. But if they're infiltrators, they know who is in what clan already. Therefore, soft claiming clan names means only that what the mafia already knows gets out in the open. More information is not bad. I realize that if its taken the wrong way, we could go nuts, jump to conclusions, and mislynch. But hey, if we have no info, we're going randomly anyway, and the odds are against us. Information is better in the long run, as I explained in my last post.
sgdre, why not vote a lurker if you're so desperate to vote? Do you understand what voting means? It means, I THINK THIS PERSON IS SCUM + SHOULD HANG. This post
Quote from sgdre »
Its not really that big a deal. If I wanted a wagon on you I wouldve made a cohesive argument for why I thought you were scummy. I am just trying to state an opinion (namely, that I think u are scum on a hunch).
reeks of idiocy. You have a hunch he's scum, but if he goes to lynch, you'll unvote if no other evidence has come up? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, sir!
Quote from S_K171 »
I don't know about you, but my clan has more than two people in it
Cheers for the info :/
so the mafia has to either all claim the same clan, make two dinky and obviously false clans, or make one four man clan and leave a sacrifical lamb outside.
Obviously, the mafia could split any way they like, not just these three options. . . This whole argument is a false dilemma. What stops the mafia from making the obvious play of waiting to claim LAST? What if they've been given a list of SAFE CLAN NAMES to claim? What if they're in different clans, some infiltrated, some in with other players, some solo? We have been given NO INFO about the Mafia setup so far! This argument is so full of holes it hurts me.
Missed this the first time around:
Quote from WoLG »
Regardless, the information of who is in what clan can only help the town, and since the mafia would already know this information, there is no reason not to have everyone claim either: "In a clan, not in a clan" and possibly what clan they are in.
What evidence do we have that the Mafia knows anything other than who is Mafia?!
mafia has to either all claim the same clan, make two dinky and obviously false clans, or make one four man clan and leave a sacrifical lamb outside
What makes two dinky clans obviously false? We don't know anything about the town setup, and thus can't make any generalizations of of this kind if a mass clan claim happened. We don't even know that all townies are in a clan. The whole structure of allowing townies to talk at night inherantly makes the town more powerful, so there must be some kind of balancing factor. Infiltrators are one such factor, but others include power roles stranded on their own, unpredictable game setup, and larger-than-usual numbers of scum and neutrals.
There is very little that a mass clan claim can give us, because we know nothing about how the game is set up.
Now, if someone had a role that told them the names of each clan with the numbers in that clan, and the mafia were'nt completely infiltrated, we would have something to go on. Except that that role just auto-breaks the game and couldn't appear. Really, we'd just end up with a list of numbers that don't mean anything, and a bunch of people in no clan that we would have no information on, and are the most likely to have the power roles for the mafia to pick off.
The arguement that the mafia already knows this information is not valid either because it is only true if they have an infiltrator in each clan. If we follow that assumption, then we should just start by lynching the most suspicious from any random clan and proceed through that clan until we hit mafia and then consider everybody else in that clan clear, and move on to the next clan. That is no more ludicrous than thinking the mafia knows everything about the setup.
I'm just ranting at this point, so I will stop here. Basically, mass claims are almost never good for the town, and I agree with much of rianalnn's last post.
WOLG=computer problems.
Hope you don't mind me reposting that here
Quote from WoLG off site post »
In resp to Ikerr: You seem to be a bit confused at some things:
1. In a game like this, where people are able to unvote, voting means next to nothing unless on a bandwagon. Spending 1 vote and no energy on someone does, in fact, not equal "DIE SCUMMZORZ DIE!" (Unless stated in that post, which would be a use of energy)
2. Assume that the mafia know more than you, learn every thing, and then lynch them. Mafia have a huge advantage over the town because they are able to talk at night, IN CLOSE TO REAL TIME, if they wanted to, which means that they could get all the speculation done Alpha Sierra Alpha Papa, private. Also, there are probably enough mafia that they would be able to compare all their roles and have alreadly discussed almost anything that we could throw against them. That's how the mafia work, their balance for being so small in size is to have more information than the town.
$#!+, edit!? Are we going to lose you to modkill now?
Now on a completely unrelated note, my post:
Quote from ikerr »
The arguement that the mafia already knows this information is not valid either because it is only true if they have an infiltrator in each clan. If we follow that assumption, then we should just start by lynching the most suspicious from any random clan and proceed through that clan until we hit mafia and then consider everybody else in that clan clear, and move on to the next clan. That is no more ludicrous than thinking the mafia knows everything about the setup.
The argument that the mafia already knows this is only being used at this point to justify claiming in Jobie's clan/ not in Jobie's clan. The Mafia already knows this assuming the two following are true: 1) Jobie was mafia as our mod said. 2) The Mafia communicated with one another last night.
If one is false, that means our mod is lying to us and we're screwed either way. If two is false, that means our mafia either can't communicate, or are too stupid to do so, in which case this game should be a cake walk either way.
I've been just keeping quiet about it, but I've suspected for a while now that sgdre might be mafia. He's been one of the most vocal supporters of some kind of claim, even though quite a few of us have been against it, and he even got some people to claim not being in Jobie's clan while we're still discussing whether a claim is a good idea. Then, he just throws a seemingly random vote on Abandon Hope, apparently for disagreeing with him? I agree, we need to Vote sgdre until he can at least give some more reasoning for his sudden attack.
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But if they're infiltrators, they know who is in what clan already. Therefore, soft claiming clan names means only that what the mafia already knows gets out in the open.
Quote from Treigit »
The argument that the mafia already knows this is only being used at this point to justify claiming in Jobie's clan/ not in Jobie's clan.
This sure looks like its being used to justify the mass clan claim.
@WOLG-I didnèt mention anything about a vote. The closest thing I said was that I agreed with rianalnn, which I do. The vote still makes no sense, but I wonèt go into a huge rant about it.
I also understand that the mafia have more info than the town does. It doesnèt mean we should feed them more info, when the usefulness to us is extremely questionable. We donèt know what the mafia or any neutrals will do, so we wonèt even get accurate information while the mafia only has the neutrals as the wildcards. A mass clan claim gives the mafia more information than it gives to us, and the potetial use of the information we get is far less than the potential use of the information the mafia get. This is why i am against a mass claim.
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If there are say, 4 mafia, then I'd say three of them are in different clans and the other one is doubled up, as to have it not predictable.
Within my excessively convoluted case analysis I suggested that if we go with the claiming plan we could tell the cop to investigate one of the claimers with orders to only reveal himself if the inspection turns up mafia. If he doesn't say anything we know that the inspection turned up town. That way we only need to reveal the cop if it gets us a mafia lynch and we can know the result of the inspection either way.
I'm not sure we should go with the claiming, but if we do, the inspecting will not be a problem.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Also, this is probably meaningless, but I think I ought to point out Project Mayhem's current clan thread title.
[thread=27359] [Project Mayhem] Salvation's mafia, with added Soap[/thread]
Seems strangely relevant but most likely coincidental.
3CB and 4CB5CB!The mafia arn't going to stand for census. We arn't going to get accurate numbers with this claim. We won't know who is lying, we will get inacuracies. The mafia know who is lying and will get accurate information. It will be the end. A mass claim will lead to the destruction of the town, even if it's a soft claim. It's a really bad idea.
@Chimpanzee: The inspection after a Jobie claim is wasted as it is almost guranteed to turn up townie. I think we should take our chances elsewhere. As for the Project Mayhem thing, they are Project Mayhem, this probably isn't anything. Anyhow, you seem less suspicous than at first, so UnFOS:Chimpanzee.
There are definetly ways in which the mafia can lie during this stage (assuming we go through with number claims) to sow confusion. (Please do not go into specifics on the best way for them to do this, as we may want to go forward with the plan. *I really wish I'd kept that bit about catching the GF to myself.*)However I feel that this will ultimately require lying and, as I've noticed, many lies show several days after they are first stated, and catch scum then. I'm also not sure how you think the mafia could use this info to hurt the town. (Here specifics would be great, the mafia will figure it out eventually, and then we'd be screwed.)
3CB and 4CB5CB!No, no. It caused no confusion. More of the joke to those who may know. The two members of the Called probably understand.
@Chimp: Stop posting so much.
Um...yeah...That is worth a vote. Vote:creampuffeater. What is it you are talking about? Discussing the claim is scummy? I guess this is a twenty-man mafia because you are the only one not talking about it. It is part of the game, and part of the debate. You have to discuss it regardless of what side you are. Please explain yourself.
Anywho, it seems that more people than not agree that any kind of claim at this point is a bad idea., although I'm still not sure we've heard from everybody. I still think that the only people who might possibly claim they're in Jobie's clan are either town or the godfather, and we've been over this part of the argument. I don't think it really gains the town anything.
At this point, people should have checked in and posted at least once. FOS everybody who hasn't posted yet. Lurking is scummy. Don't do it.
Maybe the idea is being opposed because the mafia are afraid of what the town may discover? I dont really understand any logical reason for not wanting the claim to happen.
As for Jobie's clanmates, I'm not sure but I think it would be helpful for them to claim. It would give us the same information the mafia already has and the cop could investigate. Unless someone else seems more suspicious before then, who else should they look into? It can't be more of a waste than investigating a random person and having them be town. Plus, if Jobie's clanmates are town, the cop doesn't need to reveal him/herself. I don't see much harm in finding this out now, rather than later. And at best, we find out a mafia clan member and lynch 'em. Also, I am not one of Jobie's clan members.
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No hard feelings, eh?
What IS this? Just because ONE mafia appears to be clanless, we should assume the whole gang is like that? What an ignorant + damaging assumption for us to make. FOS:ikerr+Chimpanzee for suggesting that the shark channel has no sharks because we can't see them (+ then suggesting we go swim, you crazy monkey!). Are you just pulling that number out of your bum or do you have something you want to tell the rest of us Great, the best-case scenario here is that we will know our clanmates can't be trusted. . . right now, if the mafia have an untargetable or negative-if-targeted role, + if the mood of the town turns receptive, they have a nice place to put that role. . . as well as sewing paranoia among everyone else! Which would DRAMATICALLY affect how I would proceed. Who's the mason traitor? Bad times.
I'll UNVOTE for now, but you guys. . . yeesh.
One last thing - it's been 36 hours. I can't tolerate lurking in mafia games. It pains me to no end. Enigma91 (Last Activity: Today 12:43 PM), Lord rahl (Last Activity: Today 02:53 PM) : Please post or perish.
Currently the only options that we have are soft claiming and random lynching. If anyone has any better ideas I'd like to hear them, but if we have to choose from one of those two I think I'd prefer the soft claim.
3CB and 4CB5CB!3CB and 4CB5CB!Maybe if we take another tack. We've been trying to squeeze every last bit of info from Jobie's death, but what about D_M's? We weren't given much, but can anybody think of something that could be helpful concerning him or his clan or something? In this case, it may or may not have been good to start with night, cause we don't seem to be anywhere even in spite of it. Of course, I'm assuming that whoever the cop looked at was town, so I guess that's one person for him/her to check off the list, but that's about it. Anywho, before anybody claims, whether Jobie's clan or not, I think we need to wait for the lurkers. It could be that we need to lynch one of them, just cause.
I am not in favor of a soft claim (at least a numbers one). The info to the town vs. info to the mafia ratio is just not worth it.
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || sk: LookingforReality (Copycat) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || survivor: matjoeman (Anarchist) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || town: kops (Anarchist) |||
Mafia stats
True, I really hadn't considered the case where only some mafia are infiltrators, and Jobie isn't. In that case, a claimed clanmate tells us the same as in the all infiltrated case, and no clansmate just makes it noticably less likely for our clansmates to be mafia. It doesn't change my stance on the issue.
That paranoia is already there. What we could gain with the claim, is the possible alleviation of that paranoia, by having nobody claim.
And yes, we need to get our lurkers posting.
Well before the game I did not expect Gaymers in it as they are not an "official" but I have no problem with it. However what is strange, very actully, is that Goblinboy is listed as a Gaymer, which he is, when he is leader of Ivory Tower. I am sure Ivory Tower is in the game, Prizm has had to put them in. So what does that mean to you? Maybe people's clans are varied to make scum claims easier?
Or...not? Replacments anyone?
Still waiting for creampuffer although I really just want an explantion, I don't actully want him lynched. Just to clarify.
I'm thinking that Prizm just went to clan threads and took random names from the members lists. That could easily have resulted in him picking Goblinboy as a Gaymer instead of as a member of Ivory Tower.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Yes but as a member of Ivory Tower he would know he was a member of Ivory Tower too. Why not choose someone more known for posting in gaymers, like MikeyG or Goatachux?
Due to a huge power surge on Sunday, I have had 4 computers at home pretty much destroyed. (motherboard and possibly ram gone on all of them) As such, I only have Internet access at school, so vote counts will be considerably delayed.
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I guess there are other scenarios e.g Goblinboy (D_M) was in two clans and only one showed up upon death, but that one is sort of wierd. Why would the clan that's not really an official clan show up?
Edit before posting- Well that sucks. At least now we'll have discussion time after lynching vote but before night.
3CB and 4CB5CB!I am still very very much in favor of the claim. I would encourage people to continue to claim when they realize it is the right move.
Machin, your last post appears to be fishing for a response from the cop. Please stop doing things like this. A cop in this game has almost NO reason to reveal info as he can just share it with clanmates (if he trusts them).
I think that the Jobie claim provides us with an excellent springboard into discussion that is not really open to exploitation by mafia (I am not going to automatically trust or lynch someone who claims, it just gives us some more stuff to talk about), but if that eventually fails, I do have some other stuff that I could bring up (but dont want to obv).
For now... unvote, VOTE Abandon Hope on a hunch. I dont really care if this goes anywhere, just feel like throwing out a vote.
After combining some of the previous general arguments for the Jobie claim I present to you... a decent argument for it.
If we do this Jobie claim, we don't give anything new to the mafia, but we do give ourselves at least something to work with. We don't have to believe the information necessarily. The least it will do is start some discussion and get the game going in such a way that we can get more meaningful reads off of people. It might even catch us some a scum or two.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Also, I wasnt saying that Machin was necessarily trying to provoke a response from the cop, just that he shouldnt do things like that because it might. I wouldnt have mentioned it if he had not previously been talking about things that the mafia could do (aka coaching the mafia).
It was meant as a general warning that people should think of the implications of what they are saying (especially in regards to possible tactics of the cop, doc, and mafia).
*To protect power roles- note this includes not mentioning when you're vanilla (which tells where power roles aren't) or when you have some form of killimunity (which makes the scum waste a kill that might otherwise hit a power role).
*To catch scum in their lies.
I don't see how revealing whether someone is in Jobie's clan would accomplish either of these goals. As has already been stated, the mafia already knows who is in Jobie's clan, therefore we're not likely to catch a lie. And I fail to see how clan alignments would reveal anything regarding abilities. (If it does, that means the mafia already know it anyway.)
Please correct me if you see any holes in my logic.
Also, as far as "coaching the mafia" I'm just kinda trying to think out loud. I feel like then, people are more likely to understand what I'm trying to say, and may be able to point out where I'm wrong or keep parts of my argument if parts are good. I'll be more careful about it, I guess.
Prizm, when you can check this, WellOfLostGnomes, Creampuffeater, Ximbad, Lord rahl, and Enigma91 have 1 or 2 posts, and those are in the confirm part of the thread. They need to be prodded if they haven't, and replacements found if they have been prodded and haven't responded. Lurkers in mafia aren't cool.
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
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Ok I am here and my computer is not fixed (I really hope that my friend guy comes over tomarrow as he couldnt today) That comment was just about how I dont like mass claims of any time (happy at the way random 2 claims came out since I was mafia) but im just trying to say no mass claims yet. It might seem harmless, but they could be distatouris (my spelling is really bad.... (O and look at shaman mafia for claim that was worthless gone bad)) Right now actually, I think it would help if people stopped claiming that they are not in jobies clan because if the mafia are 1 clan (which I think seems more realistic but you never know) we would get no information to help us. Acually I would be happy with a different claim. If you are in Jobies clan say that you are. that would be faster and have less information that it could give out.
I too thought it strange that Goblinboy was a Gaymer, when they aren't 'really' a clan. Also he's a mod, but wasn't listed as having any role (of course, neither was Jobie, so maybe Prizm isn't going to hand out role info on dead players ) So, aside from lack of role desciptors, we can see that Prizm was a bit loose in his clan assigning, if nothing else (so I won't be surprised if some RavClans show up).
@Everyone else: Please realise this is not townish behavior. Vote for sgdre until he is lynched or claims. His actions mark him to a degree that merits a lynch.
I think I said that I felt like throwing out a vote. If anything serious comes of it I can defend it and wont let u get lynched unless more evidence comes about.
Its not really that big a deal. If I wanted a wagon on you I wouldve made a cohesive argument for why I thought you were scummy. I am just trying to state an opinion (namely, that I think u are scum on a hunch).
Of course, the mafia are probably not all in one clan for precisely that reason: mass claim pwnz mafiosos. They're probably infiltrators. But if they're infiltrators, they know who is in what clan already. Therefore, soft claiming clan names means only that what the mafia already knows gets out in the open. More information is not bad. I realize that if its taken the wrong way, we could go nuts, jump to conclusions, and mislynch. But hey, if we have no info, we're going randomly anyway, and the odds are against us. Information is better in the long run, as I explained in my last post.
Missed this the first time around:
What evidence do we have that the Mafia knows anything other than who is Mafia?!
What makes two dinky clans obviously false? We don't know anything about the town setup, and thus can't make any generalizations of of this kind if a mass clan claim happened. We don't even know that all townies are in a clan. The whole structure of allowing townies to talk at night inherantly makes the town more powerful, so there must be some kind of balancing factor. Infiltrators are one such factor, but others include power roles stranded on their own, unpredictable game setup, and larger-than-usual numbers of scum and neutrals.
There is very little that a mass clan claim can give us, because we know nothing about how the game is set up.
Now, if someone had a role that told them the names of each clan with the numbers in that clan, and the mafia were'nt completely infiltrated, we would have something to go on. Except that that role just auto-breaks the game and couldn't appear. Really, we'd just end up with a list of numbers that don't mean anything, and a bunch of people in no clan that we would have no information on, and are the most likely to have the power roles for the mafia to pick off.
The arguement that the mafia already knows this information is not valid either because it is only true if they have an infiltrator in each clan. If we follow that assumption, then we should just start by lynching the most suspicious from any random clan and proceed through that clan until we hit mafia and then consider everybody else in that clan clear, and move on to the next clan. That is no more ludicrous than thinking the mafia knows everything about the setup.
I'm just ranting at this point, so I will stop here. Basically, mass claims are almost never good for the town, and I agree with much of rianalnn's last post.
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Awards:
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Hope you don't mind me reposting that here
$#!+, edit!? Are we going to lose you to modkill now?
Now on a completely unrelated note, my post:
The argument that the mafia already knows this is only being used at this point to justify claiming in Jobie's clan/ not in Jobie's clan. The Mafia already knows this assuming the two following are true: 1) Jobie was mafia as our mod said. 2) The Mafia communicated with one another last night.
If one is false, that means our mod is lying to us and we're screwed either way. If two is false, that means our mafia either can't communicate, or are too stupid to do so, in which case this game should be a cake walk either way.
This sure looks like its being used to justify the mass clan claim.
@WOLG-I didnèt mention anything about a vote. The closest thing I said was that I agreed with rianalnn, which I do. The vote still makes no sense, but I wonèt go into a huge rant about it.
I also understand that the mafia have more info than the town does. It doesnèt mean we should feed them more info, when the usefulness to us is extremely questionable. We donèt know what the mafia or any neutrals will do, so we wonèt even get accurate information while the mafia only has the neutrals as the wildcards. A mass clan claim gives the mafia more information than it gives to us, and the potetial use of the information we get is far less than the potential use of the information the mafia get. This is why i am against a mass claim.