Feh, is it smart to kill the doc? If you truly did have a "list" then you would know that I'm the doctor doy.
I still think you're scum. Prove me wrong.
Vote: Titus
it's a gut thing - the doc is such a solid claim for the mafia.
about my list... i can't say, but it has been said many times. something about the name... (hint)
i think it has been shown pretty clearly that i am in fact town - arguments for the other side are unsound.
of course, the real doc hasn't come forward yet, but in any case, i find you scummy.
anywho, it was a probing vote. you shot off your rocker, and that's does nothing to asuage my fears. if we come to the consensus that you are the doc, then i'll unvote.
Hmmmmm. Leads are definately short at this point. I have a theory, which might require re-reading much of the thread, so I will have to wait before placing any vote today.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I don't really like titus, but he has a decent point here. Also, I'd like to hear more about my dish if someone would. I'm still pretty in the dark on that one.
Safety, I would like to hear a complete roleclaim from you. Your prior claim of neutrality makes you the most suspicious at this point. Under what circumstances does your allegience change? Are you claiming to be a loyalist now or still neutral? What esle can you do, and can you verify in any way?
Also, H-Man, who did you investigate last night?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I investigated you last night, actually, and I got more information than I thought I would. I heard the long and the short of it, and everything in between.
Hvir., I'm hurt that you considered me suspicious enough to be worth investigating. :biggrin3: What did I do except try to get KCW lynched?
Here's something interesting I just found:
Quote from kingcobweb »
I just went over this list again, and something is not fitting in. My PM mentions "lightlips, squealer and security" as friends of mine, and I see none of them on this list. WTF?
Now, my PM has no role names of anyone. No friends or anything like that. Why would KCW have "friends" who were not Traitors? Except I still don't think Titus is a traitor, and Ripper also seems unlikely. What could this mean? At the point when this was posted (around #207), Ripper's "security" name was already out there, so it's possible that KCW slipped that one in with the others to make himself less suspicious. But "tightlips" and "squealer" had never been mentioned. This makes the claim as to those names more believable.
Possibly, KCW was friends with "squealer" (SafetyDance) and by lynching KCW we have now caused Safety to flip to the Traitor side? The same logic could apply to Titus, but KCW and Titus were at each other so much I can't really believe they were working together.
Safety, I'll say it again, please make a complete claim. Your time may be growing short.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
But "tightlips" and "squealer" had never been mentioned. This makes the claim as to those names more believable.
COUGH, COUGH, COUGH
Quote from Axelrod »
Now, my PM has no role names of anyone. No friends or anything like that. Why would KCW have "friends" who were not Traitors? Except I still don't think Titus is a traitor, and Ripper also seems unlikely. What could this mean? At the point when this was posted (around #207), Ripper's "security" name was already out there, so it's possible that KCW slipped that one in with the others to make himself less suspicious. But "tightlips" and "squealer" had never been mentioned. This makes the claim as to those names more believable.
depends on your role - apparently, azrael had pibbly mentioned. i don't know about any others. (mine seems fairly self-explanitory)
Quote from Axelrod »
Possibly, KCW was friends with "squealer" (SafetyDance) and by lynching KCW we have now caused Safety to flip to the Traitor side? The same logic could apply to Titus, but KCW and Titus were at each other so much I can't really believe they were working together.
i don't remember exactly what safteydances role ABILITY was, but if she has indeed switched sides, i say we vote for her. secondly, she seemed quick to bandwagon on our doc - be he doc or not, my vote was tertiary, and her second vote was unneeded. unvote lt. ripper, vote safetydance.
Something else I just noticed, which could just be an oversight on the part of aurorasparrow, but he didn't say whether Pibbly was a Loyalist or a Traitor. I mean, I was kind of assuming it, especially with the mason reference, but he didn't actually say it unlike with every other death.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Something else I just noticed, which could just be an oversight on the part of aurorasparrow, but he didn't say whether Pibbly was a Loyalist or a Traitor. I mean, I was kind of assuming it, especially with the mason reference, but he didn't actually say it unlike with every other death.
ah, i see. this means that he was ONLY neutral - his vic condition would be to live with his partner within the last 4 people.
Ugh, I'm saddened you didn't inspect Titus, Hvir. Then at least we could have put this feud to rest.
I considered inspecting titus, but after Pibbly failed to get any useful information when he attempted to ping titus, I figured that he had some form of 'cloaking' ability that prevents anyone from getting information on his character.
I considered inspecting titus, but after Pibbly failed to get any useful information when he attempted to ping titus, I figured that he had some form of 'cloaking' ability that prevents anyone from getting information on his character.
And that makes him less suspicious to be scum, how?
And that makes him less suspicious to be scum, how?
I never said that it made him any less suspicious. What I said is that Pibbly's failure to obtain any information off titus convinced me to not waste my investigation of him, since there was a good chance that it would have no effect whatsoever.
Im not neutral anymore- I'm loyalist now. Just so you people know.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now. Could you please tell us what particular event triggered the change in loyalty? Or failing that, when exactly you were informed that you were now a Loyalist?
Im not neutral anymore- I'm loyalist now. Just so you people know.
This response does not inspire me with confidence. It is, in fact, pretty much what you would say if you were a traitor. I was hoping, and asking, for something a little more specific. Rolename? Abilities? Win conditions? What was the deal with starting off neutral?
In my opinion you are on the hotseat here, so please, spill it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
First of all, I can't lie about my role, I'm pretty sure I covered this. You people that say I'm lying to make myself look good; stfu. I have no reason to lie about my role at this point anyway.
What triggered it was the death of two traitors. Since my character is weak, he takes the side of the winning team.
@Axel- My win conditions are to be alive when someone else wins the game basically, although I'm not really sure if it changes now.. I'll ask a mod....*hint hint as in PM me answer because I'm too lazy to write one*
First of all, I can't lie about my role, I'm pretty sure I covered this. You people that say I'm lying to make myself look good; stfu. I have no reason to lie about my role at this point anyway.
What triggered it was the death of two traitors. Since my character is weak, he takes the side of the winning team.
@Axel- My win conditions are to be alive when someone else wins the game basically, although I'm not really sure if it changes now.. I'll ask a mod....*hint hint as in PM me answer because I'm too lazy to write one*
Please explain the damned dish.
No one said you were lying to make yourself "look good." Several people have asked you questions which, interestingly, you still have not answered.
I asked you to confirm your rolename-no answer
I asked you to explain under what conditions your allegience changes, and you have said that you became a loyalist once two traitors were lynched (taking the "winning" side). But under what circumstances would you have become a Traitor? Traitors are, by necessity, "behind" right up until the point when they win. In seems strange that your change in loyalty would be triggered by this. Are you saying you would have become a Traitor if enough Loyalists had been lynched? How many?
Hvir. asked when you were informed of this change (I would clarify and ask if you were informed by PM after the second lynch or if it was in your original role description.)-no answer
I asked if you had any other special abilities (all Loyalists have them so far)- no answer.
I also asked if you had any way to verify your claims-no answer.
That's a lot of questions still unanswered. Considering your position, would you please clarify?
I assure you, I will answer your question once you answer mine.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
That's the order of kills i'm looking at right now. Safetydance first, since he's got the least reliably townie claim, and probably the least helpful role, then follow from there. That might change if he can give us a reliable role-claim, we'll want to ask him for more information about his role first, before we take him out.
I'm still not completely confident in Safetydance, especially after the "oh, btw, I'm a townie today" post. His role-claim is somewhat plausible however, so I'm not strongly convinced we should take him first.
One of the people I've been toying around with is Titus. Titus has been becoming progressively scummier, the last couple days. On the first day, everything pointed towards his being townie, including staunch opposition from KCW and a townie-ish role, but on the other hand, his asking to lynch Musashi and his vote for Lt. Ripper, our doc, don't exactly inspire confidence.
If we had a second doc, he would have already come out by now, and exposed Lt. Ripper for a fraud, and we could end the game right here. It would be highly unlikely that Aurorasparrow would put two docs in a game this size, so Lt. Ripper's innocence is firmly established.
The person I'm probably most worried about right now is Hvir. BK seemed to be our cop equivalent role for this game, so the existence of a 2nd townie cop in a game this size is hard to believe. I can believe that the mafia might get an investigator to help them pick out kill targets and gain information about roles, but two cops in a game, for the town...that's stretching it a bit. Hvir has been very deftly avoiding taking sides and attracting notice, (note how he refrained from involving himself much in the KCW vs. Titus decision and allowed us to duke it out), and his investigations have so far failed to hit home on mafia (why would Hvir pick axelrod to investigate, when his ability seemed to point so clearly towards his being townie?).
So, my fear would be that we're dealing with a very slick, highly experienced mafioso, who knows better than to make enemies, and can use his (mafia?) role to be able to partially confirm his role-claim (he knows axelrod's abilities now, for instance, so he can verify that he is a cop/investigator, but not which side he's on).
Also, this is pure conjecture, but I can easily see aurora coming up with a scenario in which the don's son's wife had an affair with the right hand man, decided to try and seize power from the rightful don, and sent the right hand man sends the hitman to do the dirty deed and off the godfather.
It's not so easy for me to believe that "the chef" or "the security" would get it into their heads to take on the don. From a storyline/conceptual standpoint, it just doesn't make too much sense for anybody else to have been in on it.
Also, the amount of investigative and name-seeking roles already present in the game seems to point towards one townie cop, supported by the others(Titus, Pibbly) and an opposing information role for the mafia, and not for the townies to have a huge, powerful monopoly on information: its most likely that the mafia would also have a powerful information role of their own. My guess is that Hvir would be that man.
Based on that thinking, my vote is for Hvir. I can tell he's experienced, I can tell he's a very, very cunning player, but I have serious doubts he's on our side.
No one said you were lying to make yourself "look good." Several people have asked you questions which, interestingly, you still have not answered.
I asked you to confirm your rolename-no answer
I asked you to explain under what conditions your allegience changes, and you have said that you became a loyalist once two traitors were lynched (taking the "winning" side). But under what circumstances would you have become a Traitor? Traitors are, by necessity, "behind" right up until the point when they win. In seems strange that your change in loyalty would be triggered by this. Are you saying you would have become a Traitor if enough Loyalists had been lynched? How many?
Hvir. asked when you were informed of this change (I would clarify and ask if you were informed by PM after the second lynch or if it was in your original role description.)-no answer
I asked if you had any other special abilities (all Loyalists have them so far)- no answer.
I also asked if you had any way to verify your claims-no answer.
That's a lot of questions still unanswered. Considering your position, would you please clarify?
I assure you, I will answer your question once you answer mine.
The person I'm probably most worried about right now is Hvir. BK seemed to be our cop equivalent role for this game, so the existence of a 2nd townie cop in a game this size is hard to believe. I can believe that the mafia might get an investigator to help them pick out kill targets and gain information about roles, but two cops in a game, for the town...that's stretching it a bit. Hvir has been very deftly avoiding taking sides and attracting notice, (note how he refrained from involving himself much in the KCW vs. Titus decision and allowed us to duke it out), and his investigations have so far failed to hit home on mafia (why would Hvir pick axelrod to investigate, when his ability seemed to point so clearly towards his being townie?).
So, my fear would be that we're dealing with a very slick, highly experienced mafioso, who knows better than to make enemies, and can use his (mafia?) role to be able to partially confirm his role-claim (he knows axelrod's abilities now, for instance, so he can verify that he is a cop/investigator, but not which side he's on).
Also, this is pure conjecture, but I can easily see aurora coming up with a scenario in which the don's son's wife had an affair with the right hand man, decided to try and seize power from the rightful don, and sent the right hand man sends the hitman to do the dirty deed and off the godfather.
It's not so easy for me to believe that "the chef" or "the security" would get it into their heads to take on the don. From a storyline/conceptual standpoint, it just doesn't make too much sense for anybody else to have been in on it.
Also, the amount of investigative and name-seeking roles already present in the game seems to point towards one townie cop, supported by the others(Titus, Pibbly) and an opposing information role for the mafia, and not for the townies to have a huge, powerful monopoly on information: its most likely that the mafia would also have a powerful information role of their own. My guess is that Hvir would be that man.
Based on that thinking, my vote is for Hvir. I can tell he's experienced, I can tell he's a very, very cunning player, but I have serious doubts he's on our side.
Without going back through the entire thread, let me just say this theory seems highly unlikely to me. I agree that the town seems to have too many information roles in this game. It is a concern. But Hvir has just not played in a manner so as to raise suspicion at all. He claimed the cop role first as I recall, before we knew anything about anyone else except Titus. Would a Mafia claim cop on day one? He also gave us his limitation, i.e., investigate only every other night. This is a weakened cop role, so it follows that there could be another weakened cop on the side of the town. Billking's limitation was that he needed to ascertain a players rolename first before he could do an inspection and determine Traitor/Loyalist status. There were also built in several ways for rolenames to be determined.. Titus had the list but couldn't just say it, only hint or confirm. And Pibbly could get one rolename a night. Frankly, Pibbly's ability was completely redudant with billking's, but it was true, so what else can be said.
In addition to claiming cop, he said he investigated 20Bux and that he was a loyalist. Now, 20Bux was a problem for the Traitors. They couldn't win while he was alive, and he was supposed to get stronger every day. Why would a Traitor stick up for him day one, basically guaranteeing no lynch for him. Under your theory, Hvir. could have picked anyone to claim he investigated, why 20Bux, probably the person they would most like lynched.
Hvir. did take a position in the KCW/Titus debate, which was that he wasn't going to vote for Titus. He then voted for billking, whom you agreed was more suspicious (I didn't, but no one ever listens to me :biggrin3: ) The next day, after 20Bux was nightkilled, and KCW admitted responsibility, Hvir was all over him, voting instantly (faster than you did.) Under this theory, the two of them must have agreed KCW was going to sacrifice himself. The problem here is that there was no reason for KCW to sacrifice himself like that. He pretty clearly just screwed up.
Frankly, he probably should have investigated you or SafetyDance last night, but I'm not going to sit here and say that I was so clearly innocent that no reasonable person could possibly have suspected me. The fact is, both dead Traitors have had immunity to inspections while doing kills. The last Traitor (assuming only one more) is therefore pretty much immune to inspections at this point. Hvir's ability may, in fact, be useless now.
He also told me he knows my ability (as well as my role) which seems silly for a Traitor to have done. He didn't have to do that as he was only supposed to get a Traitor/Loyalist result on the first inspection. Why let me know he has this information?
I'm still looking at SafetyDance and awaiting an answer. But please don't vote that way yet because I don't want a lynch happenning during the night while I am asleep.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
No one said you were lying to make yourself "look good." Several people have asked you questions which, interestingly, you still have not answered.
I asked you to confirm your rolename-no answer Squealer
I asked you to explain under what conditions your allegience changes, and you have said that you became a loyalist once two traitors were lynched (taking the "winning" side). But under what circumstances would you have become a Traitor? Traitors are, by necessity, "behind" right up until the point when they win. In seems strange that your change in loyalty would be triggered by this. Are you saying you would have become a Traitor if enough Loyalists had been lynched? How many? Yes, 3.
Hvir. asked when you were informed of this change (I would clarify and ask if you were informed by PM after the second lynch or if it was in your original role description.)-no answer This morning, by PM
I asked if you had any other special abilities (all Loyalists have them so far)- no answer. I cannot vote for someone without a vote on them already
I also asked if you had any way to verify your claims-no answer. So far as I know, not particularly.
That's a lot of questions still unanswered. Considering your position, would you please clarify? Yes
I assure you, I will answer your question once you answer mine. Waiting.
I agree with Axel, Hvir does not seem to be scum at the moment. Atleast to me, not as scummy as Titus.
It has been said twice already that titus cannot be pinged by a cop ability, how the hell does that not make him appear scummy? Why would a loyalist have this ability?
Without going back through the entire thread, let me just say this theory seems highly unlikely to me. I agree that the town seems to have too many information roles in this game. It is a concern. But Hvir has just not played in a manner so as to raise suspicion at all. He claimed the cop role first as I recall, before we knew anything about anyone else except Titus. Would a Mafia claim cop on day one? He also gave us his limitation, i.e., investigate only every other night. This is a weakened cop role, so it follows that there could be another weakened cop on the side of the town. Billking's limitation was that he needed to ascertain a players rolename first before he could do an inspection and determine Traitor/Loyalist status. There were also built in several ways for rolenames to be determined.. Titus had the list but couldn't just say it, only hint or confirm. And Pibbly could get one rolename a night. Frankly, Pibbly's ability was completely redudant with billking's, but it was true, so what else can be said.
BK + either Titus or Pibbly=1 regular cop.
In a game this size, a regular cop is powerful enough for the town as it is, about twice as much as it would in a normal game due to the halving of our population. Using one and a half cops here would be like having 3 cops in a regular game: it's incredibly overpowered for the town. If we didn't have so many information roles to combo with BK, then it might be plausible, but BK+the information roles would have been slightly overpowered in itself, not to mention the addition of another cop alongside him.
Quote from axelrod »
In addition to claiming cop, he said he investigated 20Bux and that he was a loyalist. Now, 20Bux was a problem for the Traitors. They couldn't win while he was alive, and he was supposed to get stronger every day. Why would a Traitor stick up for him day one, basically guaranteeing no lynch for him. Under your theory, Hvir. could have picked anyone to claim he investigated, why 20Bux, probably the person they would most like lynched.
Did you notice how 20bux ended up dead the very next day?
And why would the mafia decide to kill him then, when many of us were somewhat suspicious of him, and believed that he could have had some kind of investigation shield?
They must have picked him for reasons unknown to us, or they picked him because they knew about his ability from Hvir's investigation, and knew that in order to win they HAD to eliminate him.
Quote from axelrod »
Hvir. did take a position in the KCW/Titus debate, which was that he wasn't going to vote for Titus. He then voted for billking, whom you agreed was more suspicious (I didn't, but no one ever listens to me :biggrin3: ) The next day, after 20Bux was nightkilled, and KCW admitted responsibility, Hvir was all over him, voting instantly (faster than you did.) Under this theory, the two of them must have agreed KCW was going to sacrifice himself. The problem here is that there was no reason for KCW to sacrifice himself like that. He pretty clearly just screwed up.
Don't you think it was a little odd that KCW pretty much offered himself up freely for the lynch, when he had no reason at all to come forward and admit responsibility?
Maybe it wasn't planned out beforehand. But obv, when one of your buddies screws up as badly as that, it's standard operating procedure for the mafia to throw them to the wolves to help save yourself.
Quote from axelrod »
Frankly, he probably should have investigated you or SafetyDance last night, but I'm not going to sit here and say that I was so clearly innocent that no reasonable person could possibly have suspected me. The fact is, both dead Traitors have had immunity to inspections while doing kills. The last Traitor (assuming only one more) is therefore pretty much immune to inspections at this point. Hvir's ability may, in fact, be useless now.
He also told me he knows my ability (as well as my role) which seems silly for a Traitor to have done. He didn't have to do that as he was only supposed to get a Traitor/Loyalist result on the first inspection. Why let me know he has this information?
To be consistent with his cop roleclaim, he needed to tell us who he was able to clear last night, and what information he found.
If I was a mafioso, I would have found your ability quite intriguing from the events that have taken place, and would have wanted to figure out its workings.
As for telling you that he had your role information as well, why not? What harm would that do? And are you sure that that's what he said initially, that he only got a result of traitor or loyalist from his investigations? If so, then he either lied about this or for some reason chose to conceal the true nature of his abilities. If he was a townie, why wouldn't he have shared that information with us? And if he was a townie cop, why would he need that information?
Also, why do you think it is that our doctor, Lt. Ripper, has been kept alive? If Hvir is not among the traitors, and the traitors had any notion of how to play the game, they would know that in order to take out our Hvir before he investigated them and killed them in short order, they'd need to go through Lt. Ripper first, and deprive him of his doctor shield.
But they didn't. They chose Pibbly instead (probably because he voted the same directions as I did, and was unlikely to become a candidate for lynching).
But if Hvir is mafia, it makes perfect sense to leave Lt. Ripper alive. Lt. Ripper remains an easily influenced voter, and his doctor's ability would be useless to the town as long as Hvir kept it to himself. Lt. Ripper would be nothing more than an easily influenced vanilla townie.
And each day, Hvir could confirm townies, kill them later, and in the meantime allow us to wittle away the more suspicious members ourselves.
Quote from axelrod »
I'm still looking at SafetyDance and awaiting an answer. But please don't vote that way yet because I don't want a lynch happenning during the night while I am asleep.
I'm holding my fire. I'd urge everyone to talk this over carefully before we make a decision. We're getting too close to the end to slip up and make a mistake now.
I asked you to explain under what conditions your allegience changes, and you have said that you became a loyalist once two traitors were lynched (taking the "winning" side). But under what circumstances would you have become a Traitor? Traitors are, by necessity, "behind" right up until the point when they win. In seems strange that your change in loyalty would be triggered by this. Are you saying you would have become a Traitor if enough Loyalists had been lynched? How many?
Quote from safetydance »
Yes, 3.
In that case, wouldn't you be a Traitor? 3 Loyalists were killed (Musashi, billking and 20Bux) before kingcobweb was lynched.
Quote from Axelrod »
I asked if you had any other special abilities (all Loyalists have them so far)- no answer.
Quote from Safetydance »
I cannot vote for someone without a vote on them already.
That's seems more like a hindrance - are you sure you don't have any abilities? Especially with a role name like Squealer?
I don't know what you'd call my role; it isn't really an occupation or anything, just a name, and a few characteristics about it. I am incapable of lying about my role, though.
Also, I am not loyalist or traitor. I am neutral, but that changes depending on how we lynch.
There are a few more things about my role, but nothing gigantic enough to bring into the open.
This is SafetyDance's roleclaim in post #192. Everything he has now said pretty much lines up with this.
There is a problem, however, in that, the way it has been described, Safety could never become a Traitor. As Hvir. said, three Townies died before KCW was lynched so if three deaths was the trigger he would be a Traitor now. If three lynches was the trigger, then it's pointless because after three Townie lynches (assuming an additional nightkill every night) the Mafia win. They just win, regardless of whether Safety switches sides or not. This is true even if the Town gets one lynch right so there are only two traitors left.
So, Aurorasparrow I guess I have to ask this--was that your mistake? The fact that Safety can't flip to become a traitor, because by the time the condition was fulfilled, the Mafia would have already won?
And Safety, I said I would, so here it is: I have several dishes to choose from, but what I gave you are Shortivity Noodles. I wasn't exactly lying, one serving is completely harmless. Two servings, however, quite fatal.
So I am in the position to eliminate you now without the town having to resort to a lynch. This way, if we are wrong, we could still regroup and lynch the next most suspicious. I won't do it yet, however, unless there is some consensus that it should be done. Azrael, I'm still thinking about what you have agrued regarding Hvir. If he's Mafia, he's incredibly slick. The fact that he didn't respond to your allegation at all doesn't help him any, but I still tend to doubt it at this point.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
And Safety, I said I would, so here it is: I have several dishes to choose from, but what I gave you are Shortivity Noodles. I wasn't exactly lying, one serving is completely harmless. Two servings, however, quite fatal.
So I am in the position to eliminate you now without the town having to resort to a lynch. This way, if we are wrong, we could still regroup and lynch the next most suspicious. I won't do it yet, however, unless there is some consensus that it should be done.
Hmm. That could give us an extra day, if we need to use it. Good play.
However, due to aurorasparrow's intervention, we now know that he was telling the truth about his role. He is or was a neutral, not an ordinary mafioso lying about his role completely. So if he's not mafia, and his townie condition is genuine and has been fulfilled, then we know he's innocent.
So, if Safetydance isn't the man we're looking for, who is?
It can't be the town doc.
I was a mason/vigilante.
It's not you, our chef.
It could be titus, but for all the reasons I listed day one, I really don't think that's it.
So by process of elimination, that leaves only Hvir.
Quote from axelrod »
Azrael, I'm still thinking about what you have agrued regarding Hvir. If he's Mafia, he's incredibly slick. The fact that he didn't respond to your allegation at all doesn't help him any, but I still tend to doubt it at this point.
I agree, if he is mafia, he's a very experienced player who almost entirely suceeded in behaving like a townie. The first day, I was completely sold on him. But as more and more information roles started to come out that got me taking a second glance. Then, I started noticing inconsistencies like: why would a minor role like Pibbly be killed while the town doctor and (supposedly) townie cop were let go, when they would be free to investigate all the remaining townies? There had to have been a reason behind it. Either it was blatant stupidity on their part, or there was some reason and cunning to it.
I'd like to believe he's on our side. He's a good player. But good players can be scum just as easily as bad, they're just harder to pick out. KCW and Chrome Moxen were easy targets, but the last man has survived this far by playing it smart.
I'm guessing that Hvir doesn't really know how to respond without sounding scummy. He's probably learned the lesson that sometimes the best way to answer accusations before the situation gets serious is to ignore them, or appear calm and disinterested in them. It attracts much less attention.
I agree, if he is mafia, he's a very experienced player who almost entirely suceeded in behaving like a townie. The first day, I was completely sold on him. But as more and more information roles started to come out that got me taking a second glance. Then, I started noticing inconsistencies like: why would a minor role like Pibbly be killed while the town doctor and (supposedly) townie cop were let go, when they would be free to investigate all the remaining townies? There had to have been a reason behind it. Either it was blatant stupidity on their part, or there was some reason and cunning to it.
If I was Mafia, I can assure you that a different set of townspeople would be dead by now. Like you said, I'd like to think that I'm good at this game, and I can already point out multiple mistakes that the Mafia have made.
1. Elimination of 20Bux. You yourself said that it the town were not thoroughly convinced of his loyalty, despite my investigation. So why eliminate him? The correct target would have been either Axelrod, who by displaying his daytime ability, made himself a high-profile target, or you, since you were blatantly pro-Town.
2. The only rational justification for 20Bux's murder would be if kingcobweb wanted to follow up his claim of being a vigilante with a nightkill ability. If so, it was still a poor decision, since he would have been better off eliminating someone whom he already mentioned that he was suspicious of, titus. If I were Mafia, do you really think I would have failed to direct kcw in that direction?
3. Elimination of Pibbly. I'm guessing that the reason he was killed off last night was your inadvertent mention of your alternate victory condition. We have 6 players left, and the Mafia needed to eliminate either one of you two in order to prevent you two from winning. From your posting style, you appear to be more of a leader, than a follower, while Pibbly was quite obviously content to 'tag along'. Therefore, the correct target for elimination at night would be you, not Pibbly. In all Mafia games, the Mafia need to target high-profile leaders, not those who boast of powerful abilities or appear to be threats. If I were Mafia, you would not be posting right now; you'd be dead.
Quote from Azrael »
I'm guessing that Hvir doesn't really know how to respond without sounding scummy. He's probably learned the lesson that sometimes the best way to answer accusations before the situation gets serious is to ignore them, or appear calm and disinterested in them. It attracts much less attention.
You're quite correct here. This is a case of damned if I do, and damned if I don't. I hesitate to list my observations of the Mafia's poor performance, in case it leads to a marked improvement in the tactics of what I can only assume is the final Traitor, but since I seem to be the only player with an information gathering ability left, there is no way for me to prove my innocence. I can only give reasons as to why I could not be Mafia, since the Mafia's actions so far do not reflect my playing style.
If I was Mafia, I can assure you that a different set of townspeople would be dead by now. Like you said, I'd like to think that I'm good at this game, and I can already point out multiple mistakes that the Mafia have made.
1. Elimination of 20Bux. You yourself said that it the town were not thoroughly convinced of his loyalty, despite my investigation. So why eliminate him? The correct target would have been either Axelrod, who by displaying his daytime ability, made himself a high-profile target, or you, since you were blatantly pro-Town.
Axel announced that his ability wasn't particularly useful. You may have wanted to investigate him, first. Also, he was on your side, he was defending you, IIRC.
As for me, I'm a vanilla townie now, not a priority one target.
Quote from hvir »
2. The only rational justification for 20Bux's murder would be if kingcobweb wanted to follow up his claim of being a vigilante with a nightkill ability. If so, it was still a poor decision, since he would have been better off eliminating someone whom he already mentioned that he was suspicious of, titus. If I were Mafia, do you really think I would have failed to direct kcw in that direction?
Mafia don't always work together perfectly.
Or, it may have been a gambit. You might have realized that he was already far too exposed, far too likely to be lynched in the course of the next few days, and decided to sacrifice him for the greater good.
Quote from hvir »
3. Elimination of Pibbly. I'm guessing that the reason he was killed off last night was your inadvertent mention of your alternate victory condition. We have 6 players left, and the Mafia needed to eliminate either one of you two in order to prevent you two from winning. From your posting style, you appear to be more of a leader, than a follower, while Pibbly was quite obviously content to 'tag along'. Therefore, the correct target for elimination at night would be you, not Pibbly. In all Mafia games, the Mafia need to target high-profile leaders, not those who boast of powerful abilities or appear to be threats. If I were Mafia, you would not be posting right now; you'd be dead.
Then again, if you had targeted me, it might have called suspicion towards you since I was the only one who had mentioned anything about the possibility of your being scum, the previous day. This way, you could eliminate a vote that would consistently mirror my own, while leaving behind the mason who was an easier target for lynching, and had no useful ability to use against you, without calling additional suspicion to yourself.
BTW, I still haven't heard a rational explanation for why both you and Lt. Ripper would still be alive, unless we're assuming the remaining mafia were COMPLETELY inept.
due to aurorasparrow's intervention, we now know that he was telling the truth about his role. He is or was a neutral, not an ordinary mafioso lying about his role completely. So if he's not mafia, and his townie condition is genuine and has been fulfilled, then we know he's innocent.
Wait, how do we know this? Sparrow said he made a "small" mistake with Safety's role. That's all he said. Frankly, if the mistake was one which shows Safety is innocent, why isn't Safety saying it? On the other hand, if the mistake was something like, I don't know, failing to inform Safety that he had flipped and was now a Traitor before Safety voted for KCW, then it makes sense for Safety to shut up about it.
I'm trying to imagine a "mistake" that would be worth mentioning if Safety were, in fact, a Townie, other than the one I was speculating about, which would have meant that Safety could never have become a Traitor, and therefore it was pointless to make him neutral. So if Sparrow wants to admit he gave Safety an "unflippable" condition, fine. The only other possibility I see is that Safety is lying about it.
I'm also concerned that KCW's role description mentioned "Squealer" by name as a friend of his (along with Tightlips). Safety didn't say anything about being friends with this Hitman.
Hvir., I must say, you are not doing a spectacular job of defending yourself. We've only got one Traitor left (in all probability), why hesitate to state your thinking at this point. Who do you suspect? You still haven't said.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Wait, how do we know this? Sparrow said he made a "small" mistake with Safety's role. That's all he said. Frankly, if the mistake was one which shows Safety is innocent, why isn't Safety saying it? On the other hand, if the mistake was something like, I don't know, failing to inform Safety that he had flipped and was now a Traitor before Safety voted for KCW, then it makes sense for Safety to shut up about it.
I'm trying to imagine a "mistake" that would be worth mentioning if Safety were, in fact, a Townie, other than the one I was speculating about, which would have meant that Safety could never have become a Traitor, and therefore it was pointless to make him neutral. So if Sparrow wants to admit he gave Safety an "unflippable" condition, fine. The only other possibility I see is that Safety is lying about it.
I'm also concerned that KCW's role description mentioned "Squealer" by name as a friend of his (along with Tightlips). Safety didn't say anything about being friends with this Hitman.
Hvir., I must say, you are not doing a spectacular job of defending yourself. We've only got one Traitor left (in all probability), why hesitate to state your thinking at this point. Who do you suspect? You still haven't said.
I don't think aurorasparrow's evidence tells us which way safetydance has flipped. But it DOES tell us that safetydance didn't lie to us about his originally being neutral. He may be lying about what he is now, but we know that he was at least partially telling the truth.
Hvir, I must say, you are not doing a spectacular job of defending yourself. We've only got one Traitor left (in all probability), why hesitate to state your thinking at this point. Who do you suspect? You still haven't said.
I said that I was hesitant to state my thinking, but I did so anyway. I was refering to everything I typed above that statement.
The only people I can be sure are Loyalists beyond reasonable doubt are you and Azrael. You, because I inspected you last night. Azrael, because it makes no sense for the Mafia to have 2 daytime kills.
I am currently suspicious of titus, but only because Pibbly wasn't able to extract a role name out of him.
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Vote: KCW for general stupidity until i can read this gargantuan thread sometime.
lynchallliars
vote KCW
Axelrod serves SafetyDance a tasty meal.
The mafia surround kingcobweb, beat him into submission then kick him to death. Searching among his belngings, you find...
kingcobweb was the Hitman. He was a traitor. If he made the nightkill, his kill couldnt be blocked and he had a 25% chance of not being seen.
It is now night 3, already. =/ Send me your night choices.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
THAT'S RIGHT, YOU'RE DEAD. GOODBYE.
nighttime, btw.
Every night, Pibbly could inspect a piece of a person's clothing to get a hint at their role name. He was also a mason.
It is now Day 3. 4 to lynch.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
ok, i'm going to read back through the posts to find any more suspicious voting styles - we've already got kcw and cm to analyze.
my gut instinct? vote lt. ripper
NOTE: IT IS 4 TO LYNCH. BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT THROWING MORE THAN ONE VOTE ON SOMEONE.
Because I voted for you?
Feh, is it smart to kill the doc? If you truly did have a "list" then you would know that I'm the doctor doy.
I still think you're scum. Prove me wrong.
Vote: Titus
it's a gut thing - the doc is such a solid claim for the mafia.
about my list... i can't say, but it has been said many times. something about the name... (hint)
i think it has been shown pretty clearly that i am in fact town - arguments for the other side are unsound.
of course, the real doc hasn't come forward yet, but in any case, i find you scummy.
anywho, it was a probing vote. you shot off your rocker, and that's does nothing to asuage my fears. if we come to the consensus that you are the doc, then i'll unvote.
I don't really like titus, but he has a decent point here. Also, I'd like to hear more about my dish if someone would. I'm still pretty in the dark on that one.
Also, H-Man, who did you investigate last night?
I investigated you last night, actually, and I got more information than I thought I would. I heard the long and the short of it, and everything in between.
Axelrod is a Loyalist.
Here's something interesting I just found:
Now, my PM has no role names of anyone. No friends or anything like that. Why would KCW have "friends" who were not Traitors? Except I still don't think Titus is a traitor, and Ripper also seems unlikely. What could this mean? At the point when this was posted (around #207), Ripper's "security" name was already out there, so it's possible that KCW slipped that one in with the others to make himself less suspicious. But "tightlips" and "squealer" had never been mentioned. This makes the claim as to those names more believable.
Possibly, KCW was friends with "squealer" (SafetyDance) and by lynching KCW we have now caused Safety to flip to the Traitor side? The same logic could apply to Titus, but KCW and Titus were at each other so much I can't really believe they were working together.
Safety, I'll say it again, please make a complete claim. Your time may be growing short.
COUGH, COUGH, COUGH
depends on your role - apparently, azrael had pibbly mentioned. i don't know about any others. (mine seems fairly self-explanitory)
i don't remember exactly what safteydances role ABILITY was, but if she has indeed switched sides, i say we vote for her. secondly, she seemed quick to bandwagon on our doc - be he doc or not, my vote was tertiary, and her second vote was unneeded. unvote lt. ripper, vote safetydance.
ah, i see. this means that he was ONLY neutral - his vic condition would be to live with his partner within the last 4 people.
this also means that azrael... isn't town.
like safetydance - they're both neutral.
I considered inspecting titus, but after Pibbly failed to get any useful information when he attempted to ping titus, I figured that he had some form of 'cloaking' ability that prevents anyone from getting information on his character.
And that makes him less suspicious to be scum, how?
is there no way to appease you?
No
I never said that it made him any less suspicious. What I said is that Pibbly's failure to obtain any information off titus convinced me to not waste my investigation of him, since there was a good chance that it would have no effect whatsoever.
lt. ripper(1): safetydance
titus(1): lt ripper
safetydance(1): titus
=P
4 to lynch.
And Pibbly was a loyalist. sorry about that.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
What were his abilities etc?
-_-
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
You speak it, so it must be truth
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now. Could you please tell us what particular event triggered the change in loyalty? Or failing that, when exactly you were informed that you were now a Loyalist?
This response does not inspire me with confidence. It is, in fact, pretty much what you would say if you were a traitor. I was hoping, and asking, for something a little more specific. Rolename? Abilities? Win conditions? What was the deal with starting off neutral?
In my opinion you are on the hotseat here, so please, spill it.
What triggered it was the death of two traitors. Since my character is weak, he takes the side of the winning team.
@Axel- My win conditions are to be alive when someone else wins the game basically, although I'm not really sure if it changes now.. I'll ask a mod....*hint hint as in PM me answer because I'm too lazy to write one*
Please explain the damned dish.
No one said you were lying to make yourself "look good." Several people have asked you questions which, interestingly, you still have not answered.
I asked you to confirm your rolename-no answer
I asked you to explain under what conditions your allegience changes, and you have said that you became a loyalist once two traitors were lynched (taking the "winning" side). But under what circumstances would you have become a Traitor? Traitors are, by necessity, "behind" right up until the point when they win. In seems strange that your change in loyalty would be triggered by this. Are you saying you would have become a Traitor if enough Loyalists had been lynched? How many?
Hvir. asked when you were informed of this change (I would clarify and ask if you were informed by PM after the second lynch or if it was in your original role description.)-no answer
I asked if you had any other special abilities (all Loyalists have them so far)- no answer.
I also asked if you had any way to verify your claims-no answer.
That's a lot of questions still unanswered. Considering your position, would you please clarify?
I assure you, I will answer your question once you answer mine.
I'm still not completely confident in Safetydance, especially after the "oh, btw, I'm a townie today" post. His role-claim is somewhat plausible however, so I'm not strongly convinced we should take him first.
One of the people I've been toying around with is Titus. Titus has been becoming progressively scummier, the last couple days. On the first day, everything pointed towards his being townie, including staunch opposition from KCW and a townie-ish role, but on the other hand, his asking to lynch Musashi and his vote for Lt. Ripper, our doc, don't exactly inspire confidence.
If we had a second doc, he would have already come out by now, and exposed Lt. Ripper for a fraud, and we could end the game right here. It would be highly unlikely that Aurorasparrow would put two docs in a game this size, so Lt. Ripper's innocence is firmly established.
The person I'm probably most worried about right now is Hvir. BK seemed to be our cop equivalent role for this game, so the existence of a 2nd townie cop in a game this size is hard to believe. I can believe that the mafia might get an investigator to help them pick out kill targets and gain information about roles, but two cops in a game, for the town...that's stretching it a bit. Hvir has been very deftly avoiding taking sides and attracting notice, (note how he refrained from involving himself much in the KCW vs. Titus decision and allowed us to duke it out), and his investigations have so far failed to hit home on mafia (why would Hvir pick axelrod to investigate, when his ability seemed to point so clearly towards his being townie?).
So, my fear would be that we're dealing with a very slick, highly experienced mafioso, who knows better than to make enemies, and can use his (mafia?) role to be able to partially confirm his role-claim (he knows axelrod's abilities now, for instance, so he can verify that he is a cop/investigator, but not which side he's on).
Also, this is pure conjecture, but I can easily see aurora coming up with a scenario in which the don's son's wife had an affair with the right hand man, decided to try and seize power from the rightful don, and sent the right hand man sends the hitman to do the dirty deed and off the godfather.
It's not so easy for me to believe that "the chef" or "the security" would get it into their heads to take on the don. From a storyline/conceptual standpoint, it just doesn't make too much sense for anybody else to have been in on it.
Also, the amount of investigative and name-seeking roles already present in the game seems to point towards one townie cop, supported by the others(Titus, Pibbly) and an opposing information role for the mafia, and not for the townies to have a huge, powerful monopoly on information: its most likely that the mafia would also have a powerful information role of their own. My guess is that Hvir would be that man.
Based on that thinking, my vote is for Hvir. I can tell he's experienced, I can tell he's a very, very cunning player, but I have serious doubts he's on our side.
Hmm. Interesing points. Answers, safetydance?
Without going back through the entire thread, let me just say this theory seems highly unlikely to me. I agree that the town seems to have too many information roles in this game. It is a concern. But Hvir has just not played in a manner so as to raise suspicion at all. He claimed the cop role first as I recall, before we knew anything about anyone else except Titus. Would a Mafia claim cop on day one? He also gave us his limitation, i.e., investigate only every other night. This is a weakened cop role, so it follows that there could be another weakened cop on the side of the town. Billking's limitation was that he needed to ascertain a players rolename first before he could do an inspection and determine Traitor/Loyalist status. There were also built in several ways for rolenames to be determined.. Titus had the list but couldn't just say it, only hint or confirm. And Pibbly could get one rolename a night. Frankly, Pibbly's ability was completely redudant with billking's, but it was true, so what else can be said.
In addition to claiming cop, he said he investigated 20Bux and that he was a loyalist. Now, 20Bux was a problem for the Traitors. They couldn't win while he was alive, and he was supposed to get stronger every day. Why would a Traitor stick up for him day one, basically guaranteeing no lynch for him. Under your theory, Hvir. could have picked anyone to claim he investigated, why 20Bux, probably the person they would most like lynched.
Hvir. did take a position in the KCW/Titus debate, which was that he wasn't going to vote for Titus. He then voted for billking, whom you agreed was more suspicious (I didn't, but no one ever listens to me :biggrin3: ) The next day, after 20Bux was nightkilled, and KCW admitted responsibility, Hvir was all over him, voting instantly (faster than you did.) Under this theory, the two of them must have agreed KCW was going to sacrifice himself. The problem here is that there was no reason for KCW to sacrifice himself like that. He pretty clearly just screwed up.
Frankly, he probably should have investigated you or SafetyDance last night, but I'm not going to sit here and say that I was so clearly innocent that no reasonable person could possibly have suspected me. The fact is, both dead Traitors have had immunity to inspections while doing kills. The last Traitor (assuming only one more) is therefore pretty much immune to inspections at this point. Hvir's ability may, in fact, be useless now.
He also told me he knows my ability (as well as my role) which seems silly for a Traitor to have done. He didn't have to do that as he was only supposed to get a Traitor/Loyalist result on the first inspection. Why let me know he has this information?
I'm still looking at SafetyDance and awaiting an answer. But please don't vote that way yet because I don't want a lynch happenning during the night while I am asleep.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
:wise:
It has been said twice already that titus cannot be pinged by a cop ability, how the hell does that not make him appear scummy? Why would a loyalist have this ability?
BK + either Titus or Pibbly=1 regular cop.
In a game this size, a regular cop is powerful enough for the town as it is, about twice as much as it would in a normal game due to the halving of our population. Using one and a half cops here would be like having 3 cops in a regular game: it's incredibly overpowered for the town. If we didn't have so many information roles to combo with BK, then it might be plausible, but BK+the information roles would have been slightly overpowered in itself, not to mention the addition of another cop alongside him.
Did you notice how 20bux ended up dead the very next day?
And why would the mafia decide to kill him then, when many of us were somewhat suspicious of him, and believed that he could have had some kind of investigation shield?
They must have picked him for reasons unknown to us, or they picked him because they knew about his ability from Hvir's investigation, and knew that in order to win they HAD to eliminate him.
Don't you think it was a little odd that KCW pretty much offered himself up freely for the lynch, when he had no reason at all to come forward and admit responsibility?
Maybe it wasn't planned out beforehand. But obv, when one of your buddies screws up as badly as that, it's standard operating procedure for the mafia to throw them to the wolves to help save yourself.
To be consistent with his cop roleclaim, he needed to tell us who he was able to clear last night, and what information he found.
If I was a mafioso, I would have found your ability quite intriguing from the events that have taken place, and would have wanted to figure out its workings.
As for telling you that he had your role information as well, why not? What harm would that do? And are you sure that that's what he said initially, that he only got a result of traitor or loyalist from his investigations? If so, then he either lied about this or for some reason chose to conceal the true nature of his abilities. If he was a townie, why wouldn't he have shared that information with us? And if he was a townie cop, why would he need that information?
Also, why do you think it is that our doctor, Lt. Ripper, has been kept alive? If Hvir is not among the traitors, and the traitors had any notion of how to play the game, they would know that in order to take out our Hvir before he investigated them and killed them in short order, they'd need to go through Lt. Ripper first, and deprive him of his doctor shield.
But they didn't. They chose Pibbly instead (probably because he voted the same directions as I did, and was unlikely to become a candidate for lynching).
But if Hvir is mafia, it makes perfect sense to leave Lt. Ripper alive. Lt. Ripper remains an easily influenced voter, and his doctor's ability would be useless to the town as long as Hvir kept it to himself. Lt. Ripper would be nothing more than an easily influenced vanilla townie.
And each day, Hvir could confirm townies, kill them later, and in the meantime allow us to wittle away the more suspicious members ourselves.
I'm holding my fire. I'd urge everyone to talk this over carefully before we make a decision. We're getting too close to the end to slip up and make a mistake now.
In that case, wouldn't you be a Traitor? 3 Loyalists were killed (Musashi, billking and 20Bux) before kingcobweb was lynched.
That's seems more like a hindrance - are you sure you don't have any abilities? Especially with a role name like Squealer?
This is SafetyDance's roleclaim in post #192. Everything he has now said pretty much lines up with this.
There is a problem, however, in that, the way it has been described, Safety could never become a Traitor. As Hvir. said, three Townies died before KCW was lynched so if three deaths was the trigger he would be a Traitor now. If three lynches was the trigger, then it's pointless because after three Townie lynches (assuming an additional nightkill every night) the Mafia win. They just win, regardless of whether Safety switches sides or not. This is true even if the Town gets one lynch right so there are only two traitors left.
So, Aurorasparrow I guess I have to ask this--was that your mistake? The fact that Safety can't flip to become a traitor, because by the time the condition was fulfilled, the Mafia would have already won?
And Safety, I said I would, so here it is: I have several dishes to choose from, but what I gave you are Shortivity Noodles. I wasn't exactly lying, one serving is completely harmless. Two servings, however, quite fatal.
So I am in the position to eliminate you now without the town having to resort to a lynch. This way, if we are wrong, we could still regroup and lynch the next most suspicious. I won't do it yet, however, unless there is some consensus that it should be done. Azrael, I'm still thinking about what you have agrued regarding Hvir. If he's Mafia, he's incredibly slick. The fact that he didn't respond to your allegation at all doesn't help him any, but I still tend to doubt it at this point.
Hmm. That could give us an extra day, if we need to use it. Good play.
However, due to aurorasparrow's intervention, we now know that he was telling the truth about his role. He is or was a neutral, not an ordinary mafioso lying about his role completely. So if he's not mafia, and his townie condition is genuine and has been fulfilled, then we know he's innocent.
So, if Safetydance isn't the man we're looking for, who is?
It can't be the town doc.
I was a mason/vigilante.
It's not you, our chef.
It could be titus, but for all the reasons I listed day one, I really don't think that's it.
So by process of elimination, that leaves only Hvir.
I agree, if he is mafia, he's a very experienced player who almost entirely suceeded in behaving like a townie. The first day, I was completely sold on him. But as more and more information roles started to come out that got me taking a second glance. Then, I started noticing inconsistencies like: why would a minor role like Pibbly be killed while the town doctor and (supposedly) townie cop were let go, when they would be free to investigate all the remaining townies? There had to have been a reason behind it. Either it was blatant stupidity on their part, or there was some reason and cunning to it.
I'd like to believe he's on our side. He's a good player. But good players can be scum just as easily as bad, they're just harder to pick out. KCW and Chrome Moxen were easy targets, but the last man has survived this far by playing it smart.
I'm guessing that Hvir doesn't really know how to respond without sounding scummy. He's probably learned the lesson that sometimes the best way to answer accusations before the situation gets serious is to ignore them, or appear calm and disinterested in them. It attracts much less attention.
If I was Mafia, I can assure you that a different set of townspeople would be dead by now. Like you said, I'd like to think that I'm good at this game, and I can already point out multiple mistakes that the Mafia have made.
1. Elimination of 20Bux. You yourself said that it the town were not thoroughly convinced of his loyalty, despite my investigation. So why eliminate him? The correct target would have been either Axelrod, who by displaying his daytime ability, made himself a high-profile target, or you, since you were blatantly pro-Town.
2. The only rational justification for 20Bux's murder would be if kingcobweb wanted to follow up his claim of being a vigilante with a nightkill ability. If so, it was still a poor decision, since he would have been better off eliminating someone whom he already mentioned that he was suspicious of, titus. If I were Mafia, do you really think I would have failed to direct kcw in that direction?
3. Elimination of Pibbly. I'm guessing that the reason he was killed off last night was your inadvertent mention of your alternate victory condition. We have 6 players left, and the Mafia needed to eliminate either one of you two in order to prevent you two from winning. From your posting style, you appear to be more of a leader, than a follower, while Pibbly was quite obviously content to 'tag along'. Therefore, the correct target for elimination at night would be you, not Pibbly. In all Mafia games, the Mafia need to target high-profile leaders, not those who boast of powerful abilities or appear to be threats. If I were Mafia, you would not be posting right now; you'd be dead.
You're quite correct here. This is a case of damned if I do, and damned if I don't. I hesitate to list my observations of the Mafia's poor performance, in case it leads to a marked improvement in the tactics of what I can only assume is the final Traitor, but since I seem to be the only player with an information gathering ability left, there is no way for me to prove my innocence. I can only give reasons as to why I could not be Mafia, since the Mafia's actions so far do not reflect my playing style.
Axel announced that his ability wasn't particularly useful. You may have wanted to investigate him, first. Also, he was on your side, he was defending you, IIRC.
As for me, I'm a vanilla townie now, not a priority one target.
Mafia don't always work together perfectly.
Or, it may have been a gambit. You might have realized that he was already far too exposed, far too likely to be lynched in the course of the next few days, and decided to sacrifice him for the greater good.
Then again, if you had targeted me, it might have called suspicion towards you since I was the only one who had mentioned anything about the possibility of your being scum, the previous day. This way, you could eliminate a vote that would consistently mirror my own, while leaving behind the mason who was an easier target for lynching, and had no useful ability to use against you, without calling additional suspicion to yourself.
BTW, I still haven't heard a rational explanation for why both you and Lt. Ripper would still be alive, unless we're assuming the remaining mafia were COMPLETELY inept.
Wait, how do we know this? Sparrow said he made a "small" mistake with Safety's role. That's all he said. Frankly, if the mistake was one which shows Safety is innocent, why isn't Safety saying it? On the other hand, if the mistake was something like, I don't know, failing to inform Safety that he had flipped and was now a Traitor before Safety voted for KCW, then it makes sense for Safety to shut up about it.
I'm trying to imagine a "mistake" that would be worth mentioning if Safety were, in fact, a Townie, other than the one I was speculating about, which would have meant that Safety could never have become a Traitor, and therefore it was pointless to make him neutral. So if Sparrow wants to admit he gave Safety an "unflippable" condition, fine. The only other possibility I see is that Safety is lying about it.
I'm also concerned that KCW's role description mentioned "Squealer" by name as a friend of his (along with Tightlips). Safety didn't say anything about being friends with this Hitman.
Hvir., I must say, you are not doing a spectacular job of defending yourself. We've only got one Traitor left (in all probability), why hesitate to state your thinking at this point. Who do you suspect? You still haven't said.
I don't think aurorasparrow's evidence tells us which way safetydance has flipped. But it DOES tell us that safetydance didn't lie to us about his originally being neutral. He may be lying about what he is now, but we know that he was at least partially telling the truth.
I said that I was hesitant to state my thinking, but I did so anyway. I was refering to everything I typed above that statement.
The only people I can be sure are Loyalists beyond reasonable doubt are you and Azrael. You, because I inspected you last night. Azrael, because it makes no sense for the Mafia to have 2 daytime kills.
I am currently suspicious of titus, but only because Pibbly wasn't able to extract a role name out of him.