Also, is it possible that Azrael is Mafia and picked one Mafioso and one Townie to off, thus killing a Townie and solidifying the Town's trust in him? I definately wouldn't put it past him, but in a game this small, doing it this early would be a major hit to the Mafia, because the chance that an SK or lynch will get blindly lucky is too great. But maybe he just wants us to think it would be suicidal. Hmmm...
I considered this also, but I keep coming back to the fact that to give two instant daykills to the Traitor Mafia, on top of the nightly kill, would be absolutely broken. I can't believe that reed (or Sparrow) would do something like that. Assuming there are three Traitors, they start off only needing to kill/lynch 6 of us to win the game. Two daykills brings it down to four. One bad town lynch, one night, and suddenly we have just about lost.
Even if Sparrow did go insane and give them this ability, by killing even one Traitor (if only to divert suspicion) now the remaining two traitors need to kill/lynch eight of us to win. That's not what I call good strategy. Especially when it looked like musashi was getting lynched anyway, and when he came up innocent, Titus would be the next easy target. No, Azrael would never have done what he did if he were a Traitor, it just makes no sense.
By the same token, Titus wouldn't have been calling for musashi's lynch first if he were a Traitor, it's bad strategy.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I considered this also, but I keep coming back to the fact that to give two instant daykills to the Traitor Mafia, on top of the nightly kill, would be absolutely broken. I can't believe that reed (or Sparrow) would do something like that. Assuming there are three Traitors, they start off only needing to kill/lynch 6 of us to win the game. Two daykills brings it down to four. One bad town lynch, one night, and suddenly we have just about lost.
Even if Sparrow did go insane and give them this ability, by killing even one Traitor (if only to divert suspicion) now the remaining two traitors need to kill/lynch eight of us to win. That's not what I call good strategy. Especially when it looked like musashi was getting lynched anyway, and when he came up innocent, Titus would be the next easy target. No, Azrael would never have done what he did if he were a Traitor, it just makes no sense.
By the same token, Titus wouldn't have been calling for musashi's lynch first if he were a Traitor, it's bad strategy.
But is it so bad that the town would never supsect the Mafia was doing it, so they could get away with it?
Granted, I don't think that's the case, but it's possible.
Okay, defending Chrome was a mistake, I admit that now. But if I had the same information about someone in the next game, I would do it again. This is because, like I said repeatedly, he acted the EXACT SAME WAY in Secret Society. He was 3rd on a bandwagon, and gave no reason for his votes. Then he was lynched, and ended up being the Doctor-type role.
I am letting my vote stand on titus for 2 reasons.
1) He lied.
2) That type of information role seems vital to the Mafia- to find out who the Doctor, etc. are! Now, if they want to, they can kill the most important roles easily. Not only that, titus got to get almost everyone to tell their role abilities! How is that possibly bad for the mafia?
Oh, and I welcome an investigation, if you wish to waste one on me.
20Bux: here's a theory you might like. Your wife was having an affair (with, I don't know...the Hitman. Or maybe someone else) The Don found out about it, and he was going to tell you, so they killed him (hiring, I don't know...the Hitman to do it.)
How's that for flavor?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
20Bux: here's a theory you might like. Your wife was having an affair (with, I don't know...the Hitman. Or maybe someone else) The Don found out about it, and he was going to tell you, so they killed him (hiring, I don't know...the Hitman to do it.)
Dementia Blader- The Butler
Axelrod- The Chef
Billking- The Lawyer
Azrael- The Entertainer
20bux- The Don's Son
Lt. Ripper- The Doctor
KCW- The Hitman
Hvir- The Cop/Right Hand Man
I just went over this list again, and something is not fitting in. My PM mentions "lightlips, squealer and security" as friends of mine, and I see none of them on this list. WTF?
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
if people don't want to vote for titus, that's fine
i motion to lynch safetydance for being openly nonloyal
anyone want to second me?
I think I've figured this out... Lt. Ripper = Security. So that makes Safetydance and titus left with Squealer and Tightlips. Apparently, from what she said, she is incapable of lying in this game. (I forget if you or Saferbahamut is a girl, please don't take offense if I got it wrong.) Sounds like possibly a role that can help either side under a certain condition...? Anywho, I'm not as worried about Safer as I am about titus, as I am almost convinced at this point that he is either scum or a liar, or both.
Clearly Titus is "Tightlips"-he can't talk about his role. Likewise Safetydance seems likely for "squealer" since he says he can't lie about it, and also since he can apparantly win with either side.
I still think you are the best target, however, KCW.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Clearly Titus is "Tightlips"-he can't talk about his role. Likewise Safetydance seems likely for "squealer" since he says he can't lie about it, and also since he can apparantly win with either side.
I still think you are the best target, however, KCW.
Like I said, I welcome an investigation from the Cop. Also, I told you my role and my role ability, what else do you want from me to prove I'm not scum? A signed letter in my own blood?
Oh, one more thing: how many mafia are in this game? According to Mafiascum.net, it's standard for either 1 or 2 mafia in a 12-person game. And, seeing as 1 is already dead, do we only have 1 more to kill?
Alright, if he made an educated guess, he wouldn't have so heavily implied that he knew who the scum were, he "confirmed" musashi to be scum.
If you DO consider his ability, if you're saying he has one, then sure it might not be a mafia role, but then why would he lie?
My vote still stands.
He was working off the faulty premise that all members of the don's family were probably scum.
It was a mistake, but not a damning one. He told us what he believed to be the truth.
Quote from billking »
Azrael, you're not convincing me. Frankly, nothing's going to convince me. I know you're golden by killing a scum. Thanks a bunch for that. But defening titus here is wrongheaded. He lied, and we need to lynch all liars.
Everyone is wrong once in a while. He took a gamble that he knew the truth of things, and he turned out to be wrong. I don't believe that he intentionally misled us.
It doesn't make sense that he's lying about his ability, or that he's a traitor. It has been confirmed by the way he told both me and axelrod what our abilities are. Logically, it is NOT a traitor ability: they would have little or no use for that role information. Clearly its designed in order to give the town additional information to better coordinate their lynches.
And I also agree that it's unlikely that he would have come forward so early, and attracted so much attention, if he were mafia. Also, if he was mafia, then he would have fewer or no restrictions about the information he was able to reveal, and he would have had to have been faking that. All that is hard for me to believe, it's too unlikely a scenario.
Quote from billking »
Hold the freaking phone.
You admit you're not a loyalist? Awesome. One less scum to find.
You're not a traitor? Guess what... we don't care. You're either with us or against us, and you're coming out and saying you're not with us.
Guys, I know we have a bandwagon on titus right now, but this is just rediculous. safetydance must die.
That's ludicrous. We have much higher priorities right now then taking out a neutral character. Your logic is flawed. Every non-mafia person we have in the town right now is another barrier to the mafia winning. He clearly has more interest in siding with the town right now than the mafia, who will very shortly become extinct.
By definition, if he is neutral, he is not "against us". We have a chance to slaughter the rest of the mafia in short order here, there should be no need to go after safetydance yet. And if it's only ploy to buy some time, so be it. The mafia shouldn't have much time left, the mass role-claim facilitated by titus has flushed them into the open.
Again, I'd ask you, would titus have wanted to reveal that list, and started us along the route to mass role-claiming, if he was mafia? No. That would be the
last thing he would want to happen. As soon as that information went public, the mafia was doomed. We were able to confirm far too many townies for them to have a chance of survival. If titus was a mafia, revealing the names of everyone in the game would have dealt a deathblow to them, resulting in his two companions being quickly tracked down and slaughtered, and his own eventual demise. Titus CANNOT be mafia, and he did NOT try to lie to us.
Also, you don't see KCW as a threat, given his voting pattern and role? You wouldn't even call for his investigation? Wow. That's a little scary.
Lt. Ripper, I'd ask that you protect Hvir tonight, and Hvir, can you investigate Billking? I'm not sure how much I'm trusting him at the moment. He's been making too many bad moves, using too much false logic, from the very beginning.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
Oh, one more thing: how many mafia are in this game? According to Mafiascum.net, it's standard for either 1 or 2 mafia in a 12-person game. And, seeing as 1 is already dead, do we only have 1 more to kill?
No. 25%, or 3 people, would be the standard number. There should only be 2 left, 3 at most. I think 2 mafia, plus one neutral and several alternate win conditions would be quite balanced.
Again, I'd ask you, would titus have wanted to reveal that list, and started us along the route to mass role-claiming, if he was mafia? No. That would be the
last thing he would want to happen. As soon as that information went public, the mafia was doomed. We were able to confirm far too many townies for them to have a chance of survival. If titus was a mafia, revealing the names of everyone in the game would have dealt a deathblow to them, resulting in his two companions being quickly tracked down and slaughtered, and his own eventual demise. Titus CANNOT be mafia, and he did NOT try to lie to us.
You don't think that this can help the Mafia? Don't you realize that now, not only do they know who the cop is, they know who the doctor is, too. Doesn't that seem in the slightest bit advantageous...ious...ily... whatever to the mafia? You really think they're going to wait even 1 night before Lt. Ripper dies?
You don't think that this can help the Mafia? Don't you realize that now, not only do they know who the cop is, they know who the doctor is, too. Doesn't that seem in the slightest bit advantageous...ious...ily... whatever to the mafia? You really think they're going to wait even 1 night before Lt. Ripper dies?
I don't think it matters much if the cop and/or doctor dies, if the mafia are all dead by the time they accomplish it.
It doesn't make sense that he's lying about his ability, or that he's a traitor. It has been confirmed by the way he told both me and axelrod what our abilities are. Logically, it is NOT a traitor ability: they would have little or no use for that role information. Clearly its designed in order to give the town additional information to better coordinate their lynches.
Actually, it is a very good Mafia role. It allows them to prioritize their kills. For example, they investigate someone who turns out to be a vanilla townie and realize he isn't worth killing so soon. Or they investigate the doc and immediately kill him.
Investigation is a very potent Mafia ability, if not a common one.
Azrael, I am becoming more suspicious of you with every post. That doesn't mean very much, though, as I am infamous for making bad calls, especially regarding you.
I don't think it matters much if the cop and/or doctor dies, if the mafia are all dead by the time they accomplish it.
But do we have any conclusive leads on who the Mafia is? Right now, it seems that fingers are pointing at me and titus, and like I said, I welcome an investigation.
So here's the story. Either a) we kill titus and we've killed a mafia/win the game, b) you kill me without even investigating me, and do the Mafia's job for them, c) we kill titus and 2 of the "confirmed townies" aren't.
I don't think it matters much if the cop and/or doctor dies, if the mafia are all dead by the time they accomplish it.
Exactly, but if they know who the doc/cop is, who are the most important to the townies, it would be logical to kill them first, as they are the MOST THREATENING ROLE.
I will protect Hvir tonight, as he is the cop, but I ask him to inspect titus, although it will be wasted since we should just kill him today.
Oh, and Az, I thought you were suppose to be good in these games considering that this is definitely not your first. You're becoming a little scummy on my radar here in not seeing the importance of lynching titus.
we kill titus and 2 of the "confirmed townies" aren't.
I agree. It's cruel, but once someone claims cop and lays down enough info, the best way to verify it is with a kill. This is particularly true if you already suspect the information due to a miscall.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
I agree. It's cruel, but once someone claims cop and lays down enough info, the best way to verify it is with a kill. This is particularly true if you already suspect the information due to a miscall.
still voting titus
This is what makes me most suspicious of Titus: why would there be 2 cop roles in the game, 1 of them almost strictly inferior to the other? Let's analyze this, shall we: Titus can find out the role names. Hvir can find out role names, AND affiliation. Soooo, what I'm saying is that it would make sense for the Mafia to get a sort of mini-cop of their own, as obviously, they don't need to know people's affiliation.
Also, I've been thinking. How do we know for sure Azrael is a townie? The only information we have is that he put himself in the "confirmed townies" list.
Actually, it is a very good Mafia role. It allows them to prioritize their kills. For example, they investigate someone who turns out to be a vanilla townie and realize he isn't worth killing so soon. Or they investigate the doc and immediately kill him.
Investigation is a very potent Mafia ability, if not a common one.
Azrael, I am becoming more suspicious of you with every post. That doesn't mean very much, though, as I am infamous for making bad calls, especially regarding you.
It only would allow them to prioritize their kills if they have a mafia investigator, a cop of their own. According to the list of claimants, unless that happens to be your ability, there is little or no possibility that they have such an asset. And I think it's pretty safe to say that that is NOT your ability, correct?
Quote from kcw »
But do we have any conclusive leads on who the Mafia is? Right now, it seems that fingers are pointing at me and titus, and like I said, I welcome an investigation.
So here's the story. Either a) we kill titus and we've killed a mafia/win the game, b) you kill me without even investigating me, and do the Mafia's job for them, c) we kill titus and 2 of the "confirmed townies" aren't.
We no longer need conclusive leads of who the mafia IS, because we now know who they AREN'T. Through process of elimination, we know have an excellent idea of who the remaining possibilities are for lynching.
Quote from Lt. Ripper »
Exactly, but if they know who the doc/cop is, who are the most important to the townies, it would be logical to kill them first, as they are the MOST THREATENING ROLE.
Yes, it's true that they would gain the knowledge of who the most important townie roles are. But if they end up all being slaughtered in the process, that doesn't sound like a very good trade, does it?
Quote from Lt. Ripper »
Oh, and Az, I thought you were suppose to be good in these games considering that this is definitely not your first. You're becoming a little scummy on my radar here in not seeing the importance of lynching titus.
*shakes head* You're not looking at the facts objectively. If Titus had any other role, i might be inclined to give some more credence to your point. But he singlehandedly sparked the wave of mass role-claiming which has made it almost impossible for the mafia to succeed, and his ability doesn't fit the profile of a mafia agent's. It fits the profile of a townie perfectly.
Your inexperience is clouding your judgment. You're jumping at shadows, allowing your own vague fears to govern your actions. Don't rely on your emotions and suspicions to outweigh the cold, hard facts. You can lynch titus and learn this lesson the hard way, or you can play it smart and help us end this game quickly and decisively in the town's favor.
The evidence confirms me as innocent, and it does the same for Titus. Think it through, review the situation impartially. If you kill him, you'll be making an embarrassingly stupid mistake: killing the man who facilitated our being able to completely rout the mafia and make their defeat inevitable before even the first night had passed, and whose ability clearly marked him as a townie, simply on the false assumption that one bad play, one false assumption=scum.
So you can either kill him and prove me right, and then we can move on with the business of hunting down the survivors, or you could avoid the embarassment of making a very obvious mistake and we can end this game in record time.
*shakes head* You're not looking at the facts objectively. If Titus had any other role, i might be inclined to give some more credence to your point. But he singlehandedly sparked the wave of mass role-claiming which has made it almost impossible for the mafia to succeed, and his ability doesn't fit the profile of a mafia agent's. It fits the profile of a townie perfectly.
But now, practically everyone's profile is out in the open, they know that hvir has the cop ability, and that I'm the doc, I wouldn't be surprised if they killed me tonight. This helps the mafia does it not?
Quote from Azrael »
So you can either kill him and prove me right, and then we can move on with the business of hunting down the survivors, or you could avoid the embarassment of making a very obvious mistake and we can end this game in record time.
Fine, if you are so sure of yourself, vote for titus then. We're not trying to make any records here.
Also, I've been thinking. How do we know for sure Azrael is a townie? The only information we have is that he put himself in the "confirmed townies" list.
See my post #201. Azrael can't be a Traitor with that ability. It makes no sense. Why are you trying to divert suspicion to Azrael? Someone should vote for you. Oh, that's right, I already am. :biggrin3:
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
We no longer need conclusive leads of who the mafia IS, because we now know who they AREN'T. Through process of elimination, we know have an excellent idea of who the remaining possibilities are for lynching.
This is pure nonsense. We always need conclusive leads on who the mafia is. Suspicion rising...
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
But now, practically everyone's profile is out in the open, they know that hvir has the cop ability, and that I'm the doc, I wouldn't be surprised if they killed me tonight. This helps the mafia does it not?
Overall, it's an incredibly bad trade for them. So no, not really. If they weren't revealed themselves, it would help them, but unless we screw up in a major way we aren't going to lose now.
Quote from lt ripper »
Fine, if you are so sure of yourself, vote for titus then. We're not trying to make any records here.
I'd prefer to be proved right by hunting down scum, not by killing innocents.
Quote from kingcobweb »
This is what makes me most suspicious of Titus: why would there be 2 cop roles in the game, 1 of them almost strictly inferior to the other? Let's analyze this, shall we: Titus can find out the role names. Hvir can find out role names, AND affiliation. Soooo, what I'm saying is that it would make sense for the Mafia to get a sort of mini-cop of their own, as obviously, they don't need to know people's affiliation.
Titus isn't a cop, or a cop variant. He just has a list of knowledge in his role PM, if i'm not mistaken.
If you're looking at why would there be two people with seemingly contradictory abilities, it would be titus and billking. Titus has the entire list, while billking's ability sounds as if it's exactly the sort of thing the mafia could use to establish priority targets: it allows him to find the role-name of a single person, correct? This is exactly the type of thing 20bux was mentioning that it would be useful for the mafia to have: a method of identifiying a person's role so that they could figure out who to hit, and who not to hit.
That would make him obsolete compared to titus, if he was on the same side.
Vote billking. The evidence now points more strongly against him than KCW.
Quote from kingcobweb »
Also, I've been thinking. How do we know for sure Azrael is a townie? The only information we have is that he put himself in the "confirmed townies" list.
RTT:
Quote from 20bux »
Also, is it possible that Azrael is Mafia and picked one Mafioso and one Townie to off, thus killing a Townie and solidifying the Town's trust in him? I definately wouldn't put it past him, but in a game this small, doing it this early would be a major hit to the Mafia, because the chance that an SK or lynch will get blindly lucky is too great. But maybe he just wants us to think it would be suicidal. Hmmm...
Quote from axelrod »
I considered this also, but I keep coming back to the fact that to give two instant daykills to the Traitor Mafia, on top of the nightly kill, would be absolutely broken. I can't believe that reed (or Sparrow) would do something like that. Assuming there are three Traitors, they start off only needing to kill/lynch 6 of us to win the game. Two daykills brings it down to four. One bad town lynch, one night, and suddenly we have just about lost.
Even if Sparrow did go insane and give them this ability, by killing even one Traitor (if only to divert suspicion) now the remaining two traitors need to kill/lynch eight of us to win. That's not what I call good strategy. Especially when it looked like musashi was getting lynched anyway, and when he came up innocent, Titus would be the next easy target. No, Azrael would never have done what he did if he were a Traitor, it just makes no sense.
By the same token, Titus wouldn't have been calling for musashi's lynch first if he were a Traitor, it's bad strategy.
This is what makes me most suspicious of Titus: why would there be 2 cop roles in the game, 1 of them almost strictly inferior to the other? Let's analyze this, shall we: Titus can find out the role names. Hvir can find out role names, AND affiliation. Soooo, what I'm saying is that it would make sense for the Mafia to get a sort of mini-cop of their own, as obviously, they don't need to know people's affiliation.
nope, not it.
Quote from axelrod »
Titus pretty clearly knows the roles in this game. He told me my role (check post#65).
yep. i've told you people what my role is... i just can't say it.
Quote from Hvirfilvindr »
1. I notice that titus hasn't come out and produced a list of townspeople for us (not unreasonable, given that we have some players who have yet to roleclaim). This means that it's possible that titus has no such list, and has been 'confirming' players just to avoid suspicion.
2. titus has yet to provide a role name for himself.
1: nope
2: nope
*can't say*
Quote from kcw »
I think I've figured this out... Lt. Ripper = Security. So that makes Safetydance and titus left with Squealer and Tightlips.
yup. i told you all about lt. ripper's role earlier in the game - post #60.
about my lynching: i made an egregious play error - i incorrectly assumed the don's family would be the traitors. now, i was not completely wrong - CM (family member) was scum, but the low amount of people in this game makes it unlikely that there would be a second familial scum. this is what points my suspicious to kcw - a hitman, 1, with an odd role-claim, 2, that defended chrome moxen, 3. neutrals + alt-win vic conditions in this low bodycount game point to a 2-person mafia, and i'm fairly convinced that kcw is it.
this hysterical bandwagon against me is driven only be a 'lynchallliars' premise; however, i didn't lie, i made a stupid assumption. my ability - as has been mentioned - seems to be totally non-mafia. it doesn't make sense for them to have access to the information that i do.
i think my presupposition of many people's roles pretty much confirms me as a townie.
This is pure nonsense. We always need conclusive leads on who the mafia is. Suspicion rising...
Hardly. Through process of elimination, there are only around 3 or 4 remaining possibilities of people that could be mafia. Everyone else has been positively cleared as innocent by various methods. If you'd like to dispute them, feel free.
Those who have not been proven innocent are: Yourself, KCW, and possibly 20bux or safetydance. I'm leaning much more strongly towards you and KCW atm, since there is additional evidence against you in addition to your each not being cleared.
See my post #201. Azrael can't be a Traitor with that ability. It makes no sense. Why are you trying to divert suspicion to Azrael? Someone should vote for you. Oh, that's right, I already am. :biggrin3:
Also pure nonsense. How is killing people bad for the traitors? I'll grant you that if he is traitor, he has a very powerful ability, almost too powerful, but that doesn't mean it's impossible... and this is an "expert" game, so making things unduly hard on the loyalists is not an impossibility.
I don't see why we're doing this constant jab-and-jab-back of attacks and defenses. The only thing it's doing is linking players to each other, it's not actually proving anything. What we do know is that titus lied. Lynch all liars, damnit. Or lynch safetydance. Whoever. But frankly those should be the only two people under discussion right now. We're simply not going to vote for anyone else. To all the traitors trying to influence this discussion, I have this to say: pick safetydance or titus. You still have a choice and one is better than the other, so let's go.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
I'm leaning much more strongly towards you and KCW atm, since there is additional evidence against you in addition to your each not being cleared.
To clarify: your scummy voting patterns, and behavior like calling for a mass roleclaim before we had titus around to verify them for us, survivor style voting, and defending chrome moxen (in the case of KCW).
Also pure nonsense. How is killing people bad for the traitors? I'll grant you that if he is traitor, he has a very powerful ability, almost too powerful, but that doesn't mean it's impossible... and this is an "expert" game, so making things unduly hard on the loyalists is not an impossibility.
I don't see why we're doing this constant jab-and-jab-back of attacks and defenses. The only thing it's doing is linking players to each other, it's not actually proving anything. What we do know is that titus lied. Lynch all liars, damnit. Or lynch safetydance. Whoever. But frankly those should be the only two people under discussion right now. We're simply not going to vote for anyone else. To all the traitors trying to influence this discussion, I have this to say: pick safetydance or titus. You still have a choice and one is better than the other, so let's go.
billking, you are sounding more and more irrational with every post. I'm beginning to be sorry I served you my dish....:frown:
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
What we do know is that titus lied. Lynch all liars, damnit.
You keep on coming back to this point, basing your entire argument upon it. But it's a false premise. He believed that musashi was guilty based on role-based knowledge, and recommended our killing off the don's family one by one. This still would have led us to hitting at least one scum.
Making a bad decision, or bad assumption is not = being scum. If this were true, then we should have lynched you instantly as soon as you said that we should all mass roleclaim hint in the beginning, because it was clearly a "lie" that that would help us.
You're not going to win, billking. You're putting up a valiant fight, but titus killed you all, and this game is as good as over.
If you're looking at why would there be two people with seemingly contradictory abilities, it would be titus and billking. Titus has the entire list, while billking's ability sounds as if it's exactly the sort of thing the mafia could use to establish priority targets: it allows him to find the role-name of a single person, correct? This is exactly the type of thing 20bux was mentioning that it would be useful for the mafia to have: a method of identifiying a person's role so that they could figure out who to hit, and who not to hit.
Then wouldn't it be more efficient for the mafia to have the ENTIRE list?! Like the ENTIRE LIST THAT TITUS HAS?!
You're seeming way scummier now then ever. Your logic seems broken and your posts contradict eachother...
After titus, I would ask hvir to inspect you next.
It only would allow them to prioritize their kills if they have a mafia investigator, a cop of their own. According to the list of claimants, unless that happens to be your ability, there is little or no possibility that they have such an asset. And I think it's pretty safe to say that that is NOT your ability, correct?
No, that is not my role. I am not Mafia.
You were saying that a cop would be a terrible role for Mafia. I said it was good. I wasn't necessarily takling about this game, but rather the concept in general.
Also, billking seems to be taking the "No guys, don't lynch me. Lynch a claimed cop who's claim has not been disproven." attitude, which makes me seriously question keeping him alive. Vote: billking.
Hey, I'd love to die... providing that, as a martyr, everyone would remember that titus and safetydance must go, and that axelrod and azrael need investigating. You all want to vote for me? Great.
I'm changing my mind about safetydance. Still suspicious but a much lower priority. The reason is that I just had a revelation. Try this theory on for size:
- Titus is utterly full of crap regarding his ability. He knows some roles because they're his Traitor buddies, and they told him themselves. This allows him to bypass the roleclaim; he makes like he has a list, provides a couple rolenames to substantiate, and then everyone leaves him alone about what his REAL role is.
- Azrael and Axelrod are both traitors. This is how Titus knew their rolenames. This is also why Titus had a heart attack when I fingered Azrael (ever-so-subtly, in I think my second post) as the Entertainer.
- Axelrod has poisoned me. I will die if left unchecked.
- Azrael is cunning like a fox and decided to sacrifice Chrome Mox after it became evident we were going to lynch him. He hoped he would clear his own name this way as well.
- Azrael and Axelrod want me lynched because that way the poisoning isn't obvious. They understand they're under a lot of scrutiny right now, and they realize that things would be a lot better for them if I didn't die tonight.
- Safetydance would probably then be telling the truth, because five Traitors sounds like a lot, even for an expert game. Even then, we may have to kill him.
Granted, a lot of that scenario is hypothesis. It may be wrong. But the more I look back on posts — especially those made by Azrael and Axelrod — the more scummy they seem to me. I think it's likely enough now that I want to at least mention it... who knows, I may be dead pretty soon.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
Quite honestly, anyone can be Mafia. We really don't know. Let's go over the list, shall we?
Azrael: couldn't easily offed a townie and the stupid Mafia on purpose.
billking: all we know is that he's a lawyer. Since when are lawyers NOT evil?
titus: obvious
lt. ripper: it's possible he doesn't even have a doctor ability; all we're going on is what he says and that his title is "security."
Axelrod: he's a waiter, and he serves dishes. We have no idea what this does, beyond that it isn't an instant kill.
20bux: the don's son. Hvir says he's a townie, but it could be that $20 has a "godfather" type role, or Hvir is scum/lying.
Hvir: all we know FOR SURE is that he's "the right hand man." Everything else we "know" because we assume he's telling the truth.
Me: well, I'm the hitman, people are voting for me, etc.
Dementia: Azrael says he was mentioned in his PM, so he ASSUMES he's not scum. But wouldn't that be an interesting twist, if scum and a townie had an alt-win together?
Safetydance: claims neutrality.
I'm not accusing anyone, just stating the fact that nobody has been PROVEN Townie.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
I'm changing my mind about safetydance. Still suspicious but a much lower priority. The reason is that I just had a revelation. Try this theory on for size:
- Titus is utterly full of crap regarding his ability. He knows some roles because they're his Traitor buddies, and they told him themselves. This allows him to bypass the roleclaim; he makes like he has a list, provides a couple rolenames to substantiate, and then everyone leaves him alone about what his REAL role is.
how did i know kcw's role then? lt. rippers?
also, DB needs to post something. he has posted... 2, 3 times? if he confirmed himself as azrael's partner, then it would clear azrael. why? there would have to be 4 mafia - me, axelrod, azrael, and dementia blader. that doesn't seem to fit in a 12 person game... with at least 1 neutral.
Personally, I am not withdrawing my vote for titus. As I proved, anybody can be scum- and at worst, we kill an innocent townie whos role ability has outlived its usefulness.
Personally, I am not withdrawing my vote for titus. As I proved, anybody can be scum- and at worst, we kill an innocent townie whos role ability has outlived its usefulness.
how did you prove this?
secondly, i don't think we have any spare townies to sacrafice.
secondly, i don't think we have any spare townies to sacrafice.
I proved it by my above post. Try reading the thread.
And how are we going to move forward if we don't sacrifice any townies? That's part of the game, and the reason you don't go "no lynch" day 1, and the reason the mafia always WANTS the town to go "no lynch" day 1. I just think that you have the highest probability of being scum, and the lowest loss if you aren't. Cost/benefit.
I just think that you have the highest probability of being scum, and the lowest loss if you aren't. Cost/benefit.
I completely agree, I say we lynch off titus, and if we're wrong, it won't make a huge dent in our townie population, but if he turns out to be scum, all the more better because then we know that Az and Axel are scum also.
We just need SD and DB to post more.
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I considered this also, but I keep coming back to the fact that to give two instant daykills to the Traitor Mafia, on top of the nightly kill, would be absolutely broken. I can't believe that reed (or Sparrow) would do something like that. Assuming there are three Traitors, they start off only needing to kill/lynch 6 of us to win the game. Two daykills brings it down to four. One bad town lynch, one night, and suddenly we have just about lost.
Even if Sparrow did go insane and give them this ability, by killing even one Traitor (if only to divert suspicion) now the remaining two traitors need to kill/lynch eight of us to win. That's not what I call good strategy. Especially when it looked like musashi was getting lynched anyway, and when he came up innocent, Titus would be the next easy target. No, Azrael would never have done what he did if he were a Traitor, it just makes no sense.
By the same token, Titus wouldn't have been calling for musashi's lynch first if he were a Traitor, it's bad strategy.
But is it so bad that the town would never supsect the Mafia was doing it, so they could get away with it?
Granted, I don't think that's the case, but it's possible.
I am letting my vote stand on titus for 2 reasons.
1) He lied.
2) That type of information role seems vital to the Mafia- to find out who the Doctor, etc. are! Now, if they want to, they can kill the most important roles easily. Not only that, titus got to get almost everyone to tell their role abilities! How is that possibly bad for the mafia?
Oh, and I welcome an investigation, if you wish to waste one on me.
How's that for flavor?
That makes sense.
I just went over this list again, and something is not fitting in. My PM mentions "lightlips, squealer and security" as friends of mine, and I see none of them on this list. WTF?
i motion to lynch safetydance for being openly nonloyal
anyone want to second me?
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
I still think you are the best target, however, KCW.
Like I said, I welcome an investigation from the Cop. Also, I told you my role and my role ability, what else do you want from me to prove I'm not scum? A signed letter in my own blood?
He was working off the faulty premise that all members of the don's family were probably scum.
It was a mistake, but not a damning one. He told us what he believed to be the truth.
Everyone is wrong once in a while. He took a gamble that he knew the truth of things, and he turned out to be wrong. I don't believe that he intentionally misled us.
It doesn't make sense that he's lying about his ability, or that he's a traitor. It has been confirmed by the way he told both me and axelrod what our abilities are. Logically, it is NOT a traitor ability: they would have little or no use for that role information. Clearly its designed in order to give the town additional information to better coordinate their lynches.
And I also agree that it's unlikely that he would have come forward so early, and attracted so much attention, if he were mafia. Also, if he was mafia, then he would have fewer or no restrictions about the information he was able to reveal, and he would have had to have been faking that. All that is hard for me to believe, it's too unlikely a scenario.
That's ludicrous. We have much higher priorities right now then taking out a neutral character. Your logic is flawed. Every non-mafia person we have in the town right now is another barrier to the mafia winning. He clearly has more interest in siding with the town right now than the mafia, who will very shortly become extinct.
By definition, if he is neutral, he is not "against us". We have a chance to slaughter the rest of the mafia in short order here, there should be no need to go after safetydance yet. And if it's only ploy to buy some time, so be it. The mafia shouldn't have much time left, the mass role-claim facilitated by titus has flushed them into the open.
Again, I'd ask you, would titus have wanted to reveal that list, and started us along the route to mass role-claiming, if he was mafia? No. That would be the
last thing he would want to happen. As soon as that information went public, the mafia was doomed. We were able to confirm far too many townies for them to have a chance of survival. If titus was a mafia, revealing the names of everyone in the game would have dealt a deathblow to them, resulting in his two companions being quickly tracked down and slaughtered, and his own eventual demise. Titus CANNOT be mafia, and he did NOT try to lie to us.
Also, you don't see KCW as a threat, given his voting pattern and role? You wouldn't even call for his investigation? Wow. That's a little scary.
Lt. Ripper, I'd ask that you protect Hvir tonight, and Hvir, can you investigate Billking? I'm not sure how much I'm trusting him at the moment. He's been making too many bad moves, using too much false logic, from the very beginning.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
No. 25%, or 3 people, would be the standard number. There should only be 2 left, 3 at most. I think 2 mafia, plus one neutral and several alternate win conditions would be quite balanced.
I don't think it matters much if the cop and/or doctor dies, if the mafia are all dead by the time they accomplish it.
Actually, it is a very good Mafia role. It allows them to prioritize their kills. For example, they investigate someone who turns out to be a vanilla townie and realize he isn't worth killing so soon. Or they investigate the doc and immediately kill him.
Investigation is a very potent Mafia ability, if not a common one.
Azrael, I am becoming more suspicious of you with every post. That doesn't mean very much, though, as I am infamous for making bad calls, especially regarding you.
So here's the story. Either a) we kill titus and we've killed a mafia/win the game, b) you kill me without even investigating me, and do the Mafia's job for them, c) we kill titus and 2 of the "confirmed townies" aren't.
Exactly, but if they know who the doc/cop is, who are the most important to the townies, it would be logical to kill them first, as they are the MOST THREATENING ROLE.
I will protect Hvir tonight, as he is the cop, but I ask him to inspect titus, although it will be wasted since we should just kill him today.
still voting titus
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
This is what makes me most suspicious of Titus: why would there be 2 cop roles in the game, 1 of them almost strictly inferior to the other? Let's analyze this, shall we: Titus can find out the role names. Hvir can find out role names, AND affiliation. Soooo, what I'm saying is that it would make sense for the Mafia to get a sort of mini-cop of their own, as obviously, they don't need to know people's affiliation.
Oh and kcw, didn't you say you had like a minicop ability as well?
It only would allow them to prioritize their kills if they have a mafia investigator, a cop of their own. According to the list of claimants, unless that happens to be your ability, there is little or no possibility that they have such an asset. And I think it's pretty safe to say that that is NOT your ability, correct?
We no longer need conclusive leads of who the mafia IS, because we now know who they AREN'T. Through process of elimination, we know have an excellent idea of who the remaining possibilities are for lynching.
Yes, it's true that they would gain the knowledge of who the most important townie roles are. But if they end up all being slaughtered in the process, that doesn't sound like a very good trade, does it?
*shakes head* You're not looking at the facts objectively. If Titus had any other role, i might be inclined to give some more credence to your point. But he singlehandedly sparked the wave of mass role-claiming which has made it almost impossible for the mafia to succeed, and his ability doesn't fit the profile of a mafia agent's. It fits the profile of a townie perfectly.
Your inexperience is clouding your judgment. You're jumping at shadows, allowing your own vague fears to govern your actions. Don't rely on your emotions and suspicions to outweigh the cold, hard facts. You can lynch titus and learn this lesson the hard way, or you can play it smart and help us end this game quickly and decisively in the town's favor.
The evidence confirms me as innocent, and it does the same for Titus. Think it through, review the situation impartially. If you kill him, you'll be making an embarrassingly stupid mistake: killing the man who facilitated our being able to completely rout the mafia and make their defeat inevitable before even the first night had passed, and whose ability clearly marked him as a townie, simply on the false assumption that one bad play, one false assumption=scum.
So you can either kill him and prove me right, and then we can move on with the business of hunting down the survivors, or you could avoid the embarassment of making a very obvious mistake and we can end this game in record time.
But now, practically everyone's profile is out in the open, they know that hvir has the cop ability, and that I'm the doc, I wouldn't be surprised if they killed me tonight. This helps the mafia does it not?
Fine, if you are so sure of yourself, vote for titus then. We're not trying to make any records here.
See my post #201. Azrael can't be a Traitor with that ability. It makes no sense. Why are you trying to divert suspicion to Azrael? Someone should vote for you. Oh, that's right, I already am. :biggrin3:
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
Overall, it's an incredibly bad trade for them. So no, not really. If they weren't revealed themselves, it would help them, but unless we screw up in a major way we aren't going to lose now.
I'd prefer to be proved right by hunting down scum, not by killing innocents.
Titus isn't a cop, or a cop variant. He just has a list of knowledge in his role PM, if i'm not mistaken.
If you're looking at why would there be two people with seemingly contradictory abilities, it would be titus and billking. Titus has the entire list, while billking's ability sounds as if it's exactly the sort of thing the mafia could use to establish priority targets: it allows him to find the role-name of a single person, correct? This is exactly the type of thing 20bux was mentioning that it would be useful for the mafia to have: a method of identifiying a person's role so that they could figure out who to hit, and who not to hit.
That would make him obsolete compared to titus, if he was on the same side.
Vote billking. The evidence now points more strongly against him than KCW.
RTT:
nope, not it.
yep. i've told you people what my role is... i just can't say it.
1: nope
2: nope
*can't say*
yup. i told you all about lt. ripper's role earlier in the game - post #60.
about my lynching: i made an egregious play error - i incorrectly assumed the don's family would be the traitors. now, i was not completely wrong - CM (family member) was scum, but the low amount of people in this game makes it unlikely that there would be a second familial scum. this is what points my suspicious to kcw - a hitman, 1, with an odd role-claim, 2, that defended chrome moxen, 3. neutrals + alt-win vic conditions in this low bodycount game point to a 2-person mafia, and i'm fairly convinced that kcw is it.
this hysterical bandwagon against me is driven only be a 'lynchallliars' premise; however, i didn't lie, i made a stupid assumption. my ability - as has been mentioned - seems to be totally non-mafia. it doesn't make sense for them to have access to the information that i do.
i think my presupposition of many people's roles pretty much confirms me as a townie.
Hardly. Through process of elimination, there are only around 3 or 4 remaining possibilities of people that could be mafia. Everyone else has been positively cleared as innocent by various methods. If you'd like to dispute them, feel free.
Those who have not been proven innocent are: Yourself, KCW, and possibly 20bux or safetydance. I'm leaning much more strongly towards you and KCW atm, since there is additional evidence against you in addition to your each not being cleared.
Also pure nonsense. How is killing people bad for the traitors? I'll grant you that if he is traitor, he has a very powerful ability, almost too powerful, but that doesn't mean it's impossible... and this is an "expert" game, so making things unduly hard on the loyalists is not an impossibility.
I don't see why we're doing this constant jab-and-jab-back of attacks and defenses. The only thing it's doing is linking players to each other, it's not actually proving anything. What we do know is that titus lied. Lynch all liars, damnit. Or lynch safetydance. Whoever. But frankly those should be the only two people under discussion right now. We're simply not going to vote for anyone else. To all the traitors trying to influence this discussion, I have this to say: pick safetydance or titus. You still have a choice and one is better than the other, so let's go.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
To clarify: your scummy voting patterns, and behavior like calling for a mass roleclaim before we had titus around to verify them for us, survivor style voting, and defending chrome moxen (in the case of KCW).
billking, you are sounding more and more irrational with every post. I'm beginning to be sorry I served you my dish....:frown:
You keep on coming back to this point, basing your entire argument upon it. But it's a false premise. He believed that musashi was guilty based on role-based knowledge, and recommended our killing off the don's family one by one. This still would have led us to hitting at least one scum.
Making a bad decision, or bad assumption is not = being scum. If this were true, then we should have lynched you instantly as soon as you said that we should all mass roleclaim hint in the beginning, because it was clearly a "lie" that that would help us.
You're not going to win, billking. You're putting up a valiant fight, but titus killed you all, and this game is as good as over.
Then wouldn't it be more efficient for the mafia to have the ENTIRE list?! Like the ENTIRE LIST THAT TITUS HAS?!
You're seeming way scummier now then ever. Your logic seems broken and your posts contradict eachother...
After titus, I would ask hvir to inspect you next.
If titus was mafia, they would already have the entire list, and wouldn't need to share it with the town.
Examine your own logic carefully, before you accuse me of thinking irrationally.
No, that is not my role. I am not Mafia.
You were saying that a cop would be a terrible role for Mafia. I said it was good. I wasn't necessarily takling about this game, but rather the concept in general.
Also, billking seems to be taking the "No guys, don't lynch me. Lynch a claimed cop who's claim has not been disproven." attitude, which makes me seriously question keeping him alive. Vote: billking.
I'm changing my mind about safetydance. Still suspicious but a much lower priority. The reason is that I just had a revelation. Try this theory on for size:
- Titus is utterly full of crap regarding his ability. He knows some roles because they're his Traitor buddies, and they told him themselves. This allows him to bypass the roleclaim; he makes like he has a list, provides a couple rolenames to substantiate, and then everyone leaves him alone about what his REAL role is.
- Azrael and Axelrod are both traitors. This is how Titus knew their rolenames. This is also why Titus had a heart attack when I fingered Azrael (ever-so-subtly, in I think my second post) as the Entertainer.
- Axelrod has poisoned me. I will die if left unchecked.
- Azrael is cunning like a fox and decided to sacrifice Chrome Mox after it became evident we were going to lynch him. He hoped he would clear his own name this way as well.
- Azrael and Axelrod want me lynched because that way the poisoning isn't obvious. They understand they're under a lot of scrutiny right now, and they realize that things would be a lot better for them if I didn't die tonight.
- Safetydance would probably then be telling the truth, because five Traitors sounds like a lot, even for an expert game. Even then, we may have to kill him.
Granted, a lot of that scenario is hypothesis. It may be wrong. But the more I look back on posts — especially those made by Azrael and Axelrod — the more scummy they seem to me. I think it's likely enough now that I want to at least mention it... who knows, I may be dead pretty soon.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
Where has he said this? Titus is NOT the cop, he "supposedly" has a list of all the players and their roles.
Azrael: couldn't easily offed a townie and the stupid Mafia on purpose.
billking: all we know is that he's a lawyer. Since when are lawyers NOT evil?
titus: obvious
lt. ripper: it's possible he doesn't even have a doctor ability; all we're going on is what he says and that his title is "security."
Axelrod: he's a waiter, and he serves dishes. We have no idea what this does, beyond that it isn't an instant kill.
20bux: the don's son. Hvir says he's a townie, but it could be that $20 has a "godfather" type role, or Hvir is scum/lying.
Hvir: all we know FOR SURE is that he's "the right hand man." Everything else we "know" because we assume he's telling the truth.
Me: well, I'm the hitman, people are voting for me, etc.
Dementia: Azrael says he was mentioned in his PM, so he ASSUMES he's not scum. But wouldn't that be an interesting twist, if scum and a townie had an alt-win together?
Safetydance: claims neutrality.
I'm not accusing anyone, just stating the fact that nobody has been PROVEN Townie.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
how did i know kcw's role then? lt. rippers?
also, DB needs to post something. he has posted... 2, 3 times? if he confirmed himself as azrael's partner, then it would clear azrael. why? there would have to be 4 mafia - me, axelrod, azrael, and dementia blader. that doesn't seem to fit in a 12 person game... with at least 1 neutral.
how did you prove this?
secondly, i don't think we have any spare townies to sacrafice.
I proved it by my above post. Try reading the thread.
And how are we going to move forward if we don't sacrifice any townies? That's part of the game, and the reason you don't go "no lynch" day 1, and the reason the mafia always WANTS the town to go "no lynch" day 1. I just think that you have the highest probability of being scum, and the lowest loss if you aren't. Cost/benefit.
I completely agree, I say we lynch off titus, and if we're wrong, it won't make a huge dent in our townie population, but if he turns out to be scum, all the more better because then we know that Az and Axel are scum also.
We just need SD and DB to post more.