Also Mogg, if Whammwhamme plays Anvil, he can no longer win any subgames because Blightsteel will be in his deck. Then, on your turn 4, you discard your last card and on your end step you play a subgame that ends in a draw. Should be 4-1 you
When you are OTP and can resolve wheel in the main game you beat me.
Don't forget my arcane denial draws you cards on the next upkeep if I cast it. So on t3 when you cast helix, if I counter it, it goes back to your hand. Then on t4 you upkeep Helix me, draw helix, play mountain #2 and helix me again, The denial plays out functionally like a remand not a hard counter. Also I lose the first two subgames before I start winning them, putting me at 18 life, which is nicely divisible by 3. I believe you kill me on your T8 with 8 life remaining (11 after the lethal 6th helix resolves) since I can only deal 15 damage with three Beacon and you lost 12 subgames by that point but gained 15 life from helixes.
Even if I wait to denial the lethal helix, on my t8's upkeep you are still at only 7 life to my 3 when we simultaneously draw Beacon and helix on that upkeep.
My guess is you forgot that you won the first two subgames, both the extra two life you gain and the extra two life I lose matter a lot in the race.
From your spoiler, how are you winning the first few subgames against tomsloger before cards start getting discarded in the main game? Even if you discard capsize to the first Pox you must sac a land, putting you 3 turns from casting Beacon. Even in the worst case scenario, tomsloger will draw the pox in two turns and force you to discard the Beacon before you get your 5th land drop.
I'm not sure if this messes with the math for the outcome of the main games, but tomsloger should be winning the first couple subgames, forcing you to lose some early life.
I was thinking of Pox like cards that discard as a cost rather than as an effect (for example, Lightning Axe), and I was missing that Pox actually would be returned by Kozilek.
That said, I believe the outcome of the match is the same, as tomsloger still would be forced to spend too much life conceding subgames to progress the main game. He's forced into playing Anvil so that I can't counter Pox, and so that he can rid me of Beacon.
Partial breakdown:
option 1
m1: 19, 1
t1: 20, 1
m2: 17, 2
t2: 20, 2, Anvil (mana drain)
m3: 15, 3, Beacon
t3: 9, 2, Pox (Tom discards Kozilek and I discard Capsize)
m4: 10, 3
t4: 7, 3, draw Kozilek
m5: 10, 4
t5: 3, 4, draw Pox, cast Pox
m6: 6, 5
tomsloger can't keep conceding subgames; the main game is a draw.
option 2
m1: 19, 1
t1: 20, 1
m2: 17, 2
t2: 20, 2
m3: 15, 3
t3: 19, 3, Pox (Drain)
m4: 15, 4 (tomsloger concedes the Capsize-Kozilek subgame)
t4: 12, 4, Anvil
m5: 15, 5, discard Capsize
t5: 5, 5, discard Kozilek, eot Beacon
m6: 15, cast Beacon in draw step, in response to Anvil trigger
so tomsloger goes with the first route, to force a draw
Also Mogg, if Whammwhamme plays Anvil, he can no longer win any subgames because Blightsteel will be in his deck. Then, on your turn 4, you discard your last card and on your end step you play a subgame that ends in a draw. Should be 4-1 you
2: Even OTD I cast Approach on my second turn, so it's in the library for CalvinSchwa's third turn and Collective Defiance can't hit it. ~ 6-0
3: The subgames almost matter here, but almost isn't enough. ~ 0-6
4: Same story. ~ 0-6
5: Approach is too fast for the creatures. ~ 6-0
6: The impressive array of disruption here doesn't stop Approach. ~ 6-0
7: Nothing to stop Approach. ~ 6-0
8: Anvil stops me even OTP. ~ 0-6
9: Anvil again. ~ 0-6
Discard was very strong in this round since it also lets you win the subgames. Somehow it didn't occur to me to use any.
The subgames meant absolutely nothing for all of my rounds, which was disappointing because being able to cast Approach in the main game and then also keep it for the subgame was the reason I chose it. I think in hindsight I would have been better off with a disruption card in place of Mana Crypt here.
Also Mogg, if Whammwhamme plays Anvil, he can no longer win any subgames because Blightsteel will be in his deck. Then, on your turn 4, you discard your last card and on your end step you play a subgame that ends in a draw. Should be 4-1 you
Do they? I was under the impression that, as per usual PHM, you only had your hand -- which consists of those chosen cards that were currently in your hand in the main game. I'll need to redo the following if that's true.
1) Anachronity 0-6 :: Good point, agreed. (Also: Whee, people are using Approach! I'd been waiting to use it for weeks 'cause it's awesome for PHM but it's always seemed so expensive.)
4) Mogg 6-0 :: Defiance/Pride wins all the subgames vs Beacon/Capsize, and I can start Forecasting 1/1s on T4. If you Beacon T5 or Capsize a land T3, I Defiance you. Together, I think I can outrace you here. (Hey, subgames ended up mattering!)
6) Jantesviker 6-0 :: At best, you cast one creature before getting Defied. Pride wins better.
5) Feyd_Ruin 0-6 :: Honestly, this makes my head hurt a bit to think about in detail, but I think you win. I can kill Pheonix and burn for 3 each turn, and/or make a chump each turn to stop the endless tree horde, but subgames usually go to you -- unless you play one of your threats, in which case I might be able to start winning with Birds. I dunno.
7) knobbodi 0-6 :: I can't deal with Wheel, and you can just keep Helixing my 1/1s until you've got a ton of life, then start Helixing me.
8) tomsloger 6-0 :: I'm pretty sure I always win this. Even OTD, where I lose Defiance permanently, I can still get out Wheel next turn. I lose Pride or Pride/Defiance vs Pox/Kozi, but I win Pride vs Kozi. Furthermore, when you shuffle in with Kozi, that's random, so I can choose order -- meaning that, for instance, if you Pox T3 I can keep you off Pox for the next 2 turns by making you Anvil away Pox then next turn you'll need to discard Kozi to get it back (and on the 2nd, 3rd, etc Poxes, you'll be drawing lands too). These together mean that, if you play Pox when you can (T3 and T6), I race you pretty handily. I'm not sure if there's a way for you to hold Pox to win subgames while still racing Pride tokens, but there ya go. Please tell me if you think I messed something up here! (I can post my map of the turns if you like.)
9) WhammeWhamme 6-0 :: You can do T2 Anvil and I discard Pride. Thereafter, I'm pretty certain that looping Defiance is barely enough to beat the lifeloss to subgames. (OTD, I win subgames until my T2, leaving it 17-19, and thereafter I lose 2 life each turn cycle, versus wheeling you on T4 and starting to loop 3 damage each turn for each turn after that.)
| 0 X 3 6 0 6 0 6 6 | 27
Hey, I missed some good pun opportunities this week:
-I had been expecting more people to play Pride of the Clouds or some other Azorius cards, but turns out my forecast was wrong.
-I almost played Sensei's Divining Top purely for the Inception reference, what with all the subgames and all. (Just watched that movie. It was pretty good!)
-If I had only played a Vehicle, then my deck could have been three different kinds of Wheels!
...anyways. I thought this was fun! I almost played Leyline of the Void over one of the cards, which would have been less fun but a much better meta prediction (possibly not better results, but I'm not gonna take the time to find out). Subgames didn't matter a ton for the fast combo games, but they definitely came up for the more drawn-out racing sorts of matches, which I thought was interesting enough to justify the week.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
There's no indication that that's the case in the rules of this round, and in addition, the actual cards that have you play subgames of Magic explicitly ay that you use your library as your deck.
There's no indication that that's the case in the rules of this round, and in addition, the actual cards that have you play subgames of Magic explicitly ay that you use your library as your deck.
While the format rules don't directly reference the library, Anachronity's analysis is correct.
For anyone who would prefer a short and readily comprehensible comprehensive rules, it may be both surprising and disappointing to learn that close to 1% of said rules (not counting the glossary) are devoted to the effect of a single card, Shahrazad, that's banned in every sanctioned Magic format, but this is true!
Specifically, rule 718 covers subgames. Per CR 718.2 (quoted below, for reference), the subgame library contains all cards in the main game library.
This rule also states that no other cards move from the main game to the subgame; the 1001 Nights format explicitly modifies and overwrites this portion, but it makes no comment with regard to the library.
Following the rules for a subgame, as modified by the 1001 Nights format, libraries in the main game move to the subgame.
The extent of the relevant rules for this round probably is not obvious, but neither is it ambiguous.
Note - I totally missed the library aspect when I was writing the rules for this format. I'd have written them differently otherwise. In general, players will not be required to understand the minutiae of the CR, but the nature of playing a new format every week is that some complexities arise inadvertently.
For reference:
718.2. As the subgame starts, an entirely new set of game zones is created. Each player takes all the cards in his or her main-game library, moves them to his or her subgame library, and shuffles them. No other cards in a main-game zone are moved to their corresponding subgame zone, except as specified in rules 718.2a–d. Randomly determine which player goes first. The subgame proceeds like a normal game, following all other rules in rule 103, “Starting the Game.”
A corner case for this round that was brought to my attention recently involves being placed into a player's library. Specifically, all cards that are in a player's library as a subgame is created are brought into the subgame, per the normal rules for subgames.
However, the method for returning cards to the main game in this format is slightly different from the normal rules of Magic.
Specifically, the rules state: "at the end of a subgame, each player takes all of his or her chosen cards that are in the subgame and puts them into his or her main game hand", superceding CR 718.5.
Per PHM rule 2.9, "cards can't be brought into the game from outside the game", so a non-chosen card that leaves the main game is unable to return to the main game.
This means that if Vindicate is ever in your library when a subgame starts, it will go into the subgame with you. However, since it is not a chosen card, it will be prevented from returning to the main game and be lost to the void. I.E. you won't be able to Wheel your Vindicate back into your hand in the main game.
I think you're the only deck significantly impacted.
I think the newly found rules affect tomsloger a lot (or at least they affect my match with him). Bringing libraries into subgames, then bringing chosen cards back to hand, mean that I can't mess with shuffle order or hide cards in library -- he'll always get Kozi and Pox back in hand at the end of turn. This means he can cast Pox every turn, and so I think I go from 6-0 to 0-6 on the match -- OTD, I never get more than 2 lands, and even OTP I think I lose with the life totals exactly 1 to 0.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Okay so I'm fairly certain that rule means that my match vs tomsloger changes to 6-0 and vs WhammWhamme it becomes 0-6 (so a net gain for me!). I beat tomsloger in the subgame, and if he casts Anvil, since Pox is a sorcery he can't cast it while Kozilek is in his hand. However, WhammWhamme can cast Through the Breach with the Anvil trigger on the stack and I can't loop Vindicate to get a draw because I'd lose via subgames.
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When you are OTP and can resolve wheel in the main game you beat me.
Don't forget my arcane denial draws you cards on the next upkeep if I cast it. So on t3 when you cast helix, if I counter it, it goes back to your hand. Then on t4 you upkeep Helix me, draw helix, play mountain #2 and helix me again, The denial plays out functionally like a remand not a hard counter. Also I lose the first two subgames before I start winning them, putting me at 18 life, which is nicely divisible by 3. I believe you kill me on your T8 with 8 life remaining (11 after the lethal 6th helix resolves) since I can only deal 15 damage with three Beacon and you lost 12 subgames by that point but gained 15 life from helixes.
Even if I wait to denial the lethal helix, on my t8's upkeep you are still at only 7 life to my 3 when we simultaneously draw Beacon and helix on that upkeep.
My guess is you forgot that you won the first two subgames, both the extra two life you gain and the extra two life I lose matter a lot in the race.
I was thinking of Pox like cards that discard as a cost rather than as an effect (for example, Lightning Axe), and I was missing that Pox actually would be returned by Kozilek.
That said, I believe the outcome of the match is the same, as tomsloger still would be forced to spend too much life conceding subgames to progress the main game. He's forced into playing Anvil so that I can't counter Pox, and so that he can rid me of Beacon.
option 1
m1: 19, 1
t1: 20, 1
m2: 17, 2
t2: 20, 2, Anvil (mana drain)
m3: 15, 3, Beacon
t3: 9, 2, Pox (Tom discards Kozilek and I discard Capsize)
m4: 10, 3
t4: 7, 3, draw Kozilek
m5: 10, 4
t5: 3, 4, draw Pox, cast Pox
m6: 6, 5
tomsloger can't keep conceding subgames; the main game is a draw.
option 2
m1: 19, 1
t1: 20, 1
m2: 17, 2
t2: 20, 2
m3: 15, 3
t3: 19, 3, Pox (Drain)
m4: 15, 4 (tomsloger concedes the Capsize-Kozilek subgame)
t4: 12, 4, Anvil
m5: 15, 5, discard Capsize
t5: 5, 5, discard Kozilek, eot Beacon
m6: 15, cast Beacon in draw step, in response to Anvil trigger
so tomsloger goes with the first route, to force a draw
Fair; I've updated my earlier post.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
3: The subgames almost matter here, but almost isn't enough. ~ 0-6
4: Same story. ~ 0-6
5: Approach is too fast for the creatures. ~ 6-0
6: The impressive array of disruption here doesn't stop Approach. ~ 6-0
7: Nothing to stop Approach. ~ 6-0
8: Anvil stops me even OTP. ~ 0-6
9: Anvil again. ~ 0-6
X| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 |
4| X 6 0 0 6 6 6 0 0 | 24 | 300
Discard was very strong in this round since it also lets you win the subgames. Somehow it didn't occur to me to use any.
The subgames meant absolutely nothing for all of my rounds, which was disappointing because being able to cast Approach in the main game and then also keep it for the subgame was the reason I chose it. I think in hindsight I would have been better off with a disruption card in place of Mana Crypt here.
Also,
Decks come with you into the subgame.
- Rabid Wombat
Do they? I was under the impression that, as per usual PHM, you only had your hand -- which consists of those chosen cards that were currently in your hand in the main game. I'll need to redo the following if that's true.
2) CalvinSchwa N/A :: Scientific progress goes 'boink'?
3) CzarBomba 3-3 :: T2 Wheel vs T2 Denial.
4) Mogg 6-0 :: Defiance/Pride wins all the subgames vs Beacon/Capsize, and I can start Forecasting 1/1s on T4. If you Beacon T5 or Capsize a land T3, I Defiance you. Together, I think I can outrace you here. (Hey, subgames ended up mattering!)
6) Jantesviker 6-0 :: At best, you cast one creature before getting Defied. Pride wins better.
5) Feyd_Ruin 0-6 :: Honestly, this makes my head hurt a bit to think about in detail, but I think you win. I can kill Pheonix and burn for 3 each turn, and/or make a chump each turn to stop the endless tree horde, but subgames usually go to you -- unless you play one of your threats, in which case I might be able to start winning with Birds. I dunno.
7) knobbodi 0-6 :: I can't deal with Wheel, and you can just keep Helixing my 1/1s until you've got a ton of life, then start Helixing me.
8) tomsloger 6-0 :: I'm pretty sure I always win this. Even OTD, where I lose Defiance permanently, I can still get out Wheel next turn. I lose Pride or Pride/Defiance vs Pox/Kozi, but I win Pride vs Kozi. Furthermore, when you shuffle in with Kozi, that's random, so I can choose order -- meaning that, for instance, if you Pox T3 I can keep you off Pox for the next 2 turns by making you Anvil away Pox then next turn you'll need to discard Kozi to get it back (and on the 2nd, 3rd, etc Poxes, you'll be drawing lands too). These together mean that, if you play Pox when you can (T3 and T6), I race you pretty handily. I'm not sure if there's a way for you to hold Pox to win subgames while still racing Pride tokens, but there ya go. Please tell me if you think I messed something up here! (I can post my map of the turns if you like.)
9) WhammeWhamme 6-0 :: You can do T2 Anvil and I discard Pride. Thereafter, I'm pretty certain that looping Defiance is barely enough to beat the lifeloss to subgames. (OTD, I win subgames until my T2, leaving it 17-19, and thereafter I lose 2 life each turn cycle, versus wheeling you on T4 and starting to loop 3 damage each turn for each turn after that.)
| 0 X 3 6 0 6 0 6 6 | 27
Hey, I missed some good pun opportunities this week:
-I had been expecting more people to play Pride of the Clouds or some other Azorius cards, but turns out my forecast was wrong.
-I almost played Sensei's Divining Top purely for the Inception reference, what with all the subgames and all. (Just watched that movie. It was pretty good!)
-If I had only played a Vehicle, then my deck could have been three different kinds of Wheels!
...anyways. I thought this was fun! I almost played Leyline of the Void over one of the cards, which would have been less fun but a much better meta prediction (possibly not better results, but I'm not gonna take the time to find out). Subgames didn't matter a ton for the fast combo games, but they definitely came up for the more drawn-out racing sorts of matches, which I thought was interesting enough to justify the week.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
There's no indication that that's the case in the rules of this round, and in addition, the actual cards that have you play subgames of Magic explicitly ay that you use your library as your deck.
While the format rules don't directly reference the library, Anachronity's analysis is correct.
For anyone who would prefer a short and readily comprehensible comprehensive rules, it may be both surprising and disappointing to learn that close to 1% of said rules (not counting the glossary) are devoted to the effect of a single card, Shahrazad, that's banned in every sanctioned Magic format, but this is true!
Specifically, rule 718 covers subgames. Per CR 718.2 (quoted below, for reference), the subgame library contains all cards in the main game library.
This rule also states that no other cards move from the main game to the subgame; the 1001 Nights format explicitly modifies and overwrites this portion, but it makes no comment with regard to the library.
Following the rules for a subgame, as modified by the 1001 Nights format, libraries in the main game move to the subgame.
The extent of the relevant rules for this round probably is not obvious, but neither is it ambiguous.
Note - I totally missed the library aspect when I was writing the rules for this format. I'd have written them differently otherwise. In general, players will not be required to understand the minutiae of the CR, but the nature of playing a new format every week is that some complexities arise inadvertently.
For reference:
718.2. As the subgame starts, an entirely new set of game zones is created. Each player takes all the cards in his or her main-game library, moves them to his or her subgame library, and shuffles them. No other cards in a main-game zone are moved to their corresponding subgame zone, except as specified in rules 718.2a–d. Randomly determine which player goes first. The subgame proceeds like a normal game, following all other rules in rule 103, “Starting the Game.”
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This means that if Vindicate is ever in your library when a subgame starts, it will go into the subgame with you. However, since it is not a chosen card, it will be prevented from returning to the main game and be lost to the void. I.E. you won't be able to Wheel your Vindicate back into your hand in the main game.
I think you're the only deck significantly impacted.
- Rabid Wombat
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.