Things we know about the match-up:
- Tom can Beast the land after Ulamog's trigger resolves. If Tom does so successfully, the eventual 3/3 tokens made from recursion will overwhelm Whamme
Not strictly accurate; if Mentor is around, the Llanowar Elf tokens can discard a redrawn Ulamog.
- Whamme can force Elixir to be discarded during the draw step, giving the 1/1s tokens eventuality.
- Whamme can force Ulamog to be discarded to regain any missing piece so long as Tomb remains untapped.
- Beast and Charm are both instants, so a bit of a staring war could ensue.
Let's start with Tom on the play.
1. T: Citadel, Elixir - W: Tomb (20/18), Mentor
2. T: Turf - W: ...
3. T: ... [If Whamme EOT makes a token, Tom Beasts the Tomb after Ulamog triggers) - W: ... [EOT, Beast the Mentor] Charm Ulamog out of hand (deck gets stacked top to bottom Ulamog, Charm, Mentor)
I make the token, and then in my turn (if he beasts) I reshuffle the land and Ulamog back in, tapping Llanowar Elf token for mana. And get my beat on.
4. T: Upkeep activate Elixir (25/18) draw and cast Elixir - W: Draw Ulamog, attack (22/18)
5. T: Draw and cast Beast on Tomb - W: Attack with two tokens (16/18)
6. T: Upkeep activate Elixir (21/18), draw Beast - W: Attack with two tokens (15/18)
7. T: Draw Elixir, cast Beast on Citadel - W: Attack with two tokens (one gets blocked and traded) (12/18)
8. T: Cast and activate Elixir (17/18) - W: Attack (14/18)
9. T: Draw and cast Elixir - W: Attack (11/18)
10. T: Draw and cast Beast
And from there tom wins. Whamme on the play gets a 1/1 token to help things out, but that only nets an extra 1 damage per turn until Beasts overwhelm, which isn't enough to offset the Elixir life-gain. I think this covers all the routes, though it's a complex match-up, so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something.
I'm *pretty* sure I win 6-0. He can't win by killing my stuff (we've examined those lines; I recur stuff too well) and he can't win by making beasts (I can stop his recursion)
Congrats (I think) to WhammeWhamme on yet another win. A bit of dominance in the air, for sure. With a full cycle under our collective belts, we'll start losing the points from the oldest round. And since we're moving into that new era, it's time for some bans: Funeral Charm, Piracy Charm, Smallpox, and Blazing Shoal are all now added to the banned list.
Round 5
Decks due by Wednesday, November 19th, 5pm PST.
Yeah, you're missing that Lush Growth makes the land plainsforestmountain *instead of what it was*, not in addition to. When I lush growth your rot farm, it's now a land that can only produce one mana per turn and that's not black nor blue. So you can't cast maelstrom and you can't usefully activate the treetop village. Needling my inkmoth makes it a 2-2 draw.
v1: 6-0. I Lush Growth a Cloudpost and d1 never has the 4 mana for Eater.
v2: 0-6. D2 Lush Growths my Inkmoth denying my wincon; I can only lush out either Burnwillows lifegain punishing fire recursion or inkmoth, but not both, and the one I don't shut down kills me.
v3: 2-2. I lush out the Rot Farm, d3 Needles out my Inkmoth, neither of us has a wincon anymore.
v4: 6-0. I Lush the slagheap on T3 and attack for 2-3-3-3 poison on turns 3-4-5-6 and win on my T6. Without Slagheap gaining counters, the best d4 can do is cast Braid on T2, then start casting upkeep Beacons from T6. But being forced to spend that Braid mana in upkeep ensures inability to kill my Inkmoth.
v5: 6-0. D5 casts Form on T4 and theoretically would kill on T8. I can deal lethal poison on my T6.
v6: 0-6. D6 plays T1 Blinkmoth, T2 Dimir Aqueduct, T3 Scepter imprinted, then from T4 is ready to Geth every turn. Whether I Lush the Nexus or the Aqueduct doesn't really help me, and I only get to deal 6 poison (on the play) before I can no longer afford to activate Inky, and Geth's eventually kills me anyway.
v7: 6-0. Ratchet Bomb's nonland clause keeps my land threat safe (too bad Powder Keg isn't modern legal). Inky romps.
v9: 6-0. As above, Inky deals lethal poison on T6. The best overseers can do by T6 is 16 points damage.
Well it looks a dissapointing score of 0 0 0 0 x 6 6 0 6 for me. I didn't expect so many Inkmoth Nexus. Seems like my first idea to put Avacyn into play with the Bloom/Sunrise combo would have been a lot better
Congratulations to Heinsun on edging out the round 5 victory!
Round 6
No new bans for this round. The new meta is still shaping up! As my schedule has been atrocious this week and because I'm so late in getting this up, the deadline for entries is being moved to Monday, December 1st, 5pm PST. The week after will also have an extension to get us back on the every Wednesday schedule. My apologies for the tardiness.
10. NemataGG Watery Grave / Sea's Claim / Duress / Slippery Bogle
1-4 on the draw, duress takes my elixir. on the play, i life gain forever but seas claim stops me from doing anything to win.
11. thatmarkguy Swamp / Horrifying Revelation / Simian Spirit Guide / Ravenous Rats
6-0 i think. i see a line of play where mark can get rid of elixir, but i get a 3/3 to his 1/1. there may be another line of play, but i dont see it
I post reasoning because otherwise I'd delete it and need to recreate it if challenged.
vs. Rush_Clasic: Am Faster. 6-0.
vs. Me: Me. X
vs. DarkDrac0: Am slower. 0-6.
vs. Heinsun: Am faster. 6-0.
vs. Pharmalade: Lose to counterspell. 0-6.
vs. door (doooooooor): I don't need lands, am faster. 6-0
vs. Sand_Crab: Am slower. 0-6
vs. tomsloger: need a permanent to win. 0-6
vs. keyboardmash: Lose to Thalia. 0-6
vs. NemataGG: Can win through Duress (thanks to my 4th card) and no lands. 6-0
vs. thatmarkguy: Can win through double discard, thanks to my 4th card. 6-0
(pitch my wincon, then respond to second discard spell by putting it back in... or if he doesn't do that, do it in the upkeep of my win turn)
11. thatmarkguy Swamp / Horrifying Revelation / Simian Spirit Guide / Ravenous Rats
6-0 i think. i see a line of play where mark can get rid of elixir, but i get a 3/3 to his 1/1. there may be another line of play, but i dont see it
I've got it as 3-3. When I'm on the play, I'll cast Ravenous Rats on T1. You have to pitch something. Assuming you want to fire elixir at some point you probably want to hold your lands and the elixir so you pitch beast within. On your turn you play... Darksteel Citadel and Elixir, likely. Then on my T2 I play my other discard spell and away goes your Simic Growth Chamber.
Elixir costs 2 to activate. There's no way your Simic Growth Chamber lands (permanently) when I'm on the play and I can make you discard twice before your second turn. Unless all you play is lands and you pitch your Elixir, which is also a win for me.
When you're on the play you've got me. The best I can do is getting rid of your elixir after one Beast Within firing (1. Citadel Elixir - Rats cause you to discard Beast; 2. SGT bounce Citadel - I do nothing; 3. You fire elixir and shuffle, I choose the 'random' result of Beast on top, you draw and cast Beast - I HorrifyRev the Elixir off your deck into grave), as your 3/3 beast overwhelms my 1/1 rat.
vs. thatmarkguy: Can win through double discard, thanks to my 4th card. 6-0
(pitch my wincon, then respond to second discard spell by putting it back in... or if he doesn't do that, do it in the upkeep of my win turn)
That's how I thought it too but some kind soul pointed out in a spreadsheet note how it works for me - as long as I do Rats first on my T1 (and you discard Barren Glory), then on my T2 I cast Horrifying Revelation. That mill clause of HR makes it so that even if you put the Barren Glory atop your library in response, HR will just mill it back into your grave when it resolves. Making me quite glad I went with Horrifying Revelation over other 1-cost discards like Cry of Contrition, Raven's Crime, or Mire's Toll.
it never occurred to me that i could or should update the spreadsheet. is that how you want it done?
Ah! Well, the spreadsheet is made public so that everyone can enter their own scores and comment in cells as to what changes they believe are necessary. All unfilled cells I eventually go through and fill in, so it isn't a requirement. But you can if you like.
3. Dark_Drac0: Path on the Quillspike leaves him with no wincon and I can beat down, 6-0
4. Heinsun: See #2, 6-0
5. Pharmalade: I can never cast Thalia into tithe or activate Mutavault without getting it pathed, but I can path his giant through tithe. 2-2
6. dooooooooooor: Once I play Thalia he can't cast punishing fire, and I can path the inkmoth once he tries to activate it. 6-0
7. Sand_Crab: Path deals with the heavyweights, 6-0
8. tomsloger: Thalia locks out beast within from being cast. He can continue to gain 5 life with Elixer every 2 turns, but I'm dealing 4 damage a turn so I can outrace it. 6-0
10. NemataGG: I can let him Sea's Claim the Mutavault and play Thalia the next turn. Duress only hits Path which is a dead card anyway. 6-0
11. thatmarkguy: I can discard Thalia and Path to his two discard effects and then beat down with Mutavault. 6-0
1. vs Rush_Classic
I suspect I lose in all outcomes. I will never be able to outrace the Red Sun even if I am able to shrink the damage output with Mana Tithe. Five turns worth of suspend gives a heck of a head start.
00
2. vs WhammeWhamme
Mana Tithe wins countering a Lotus. Giant beats.
33
3. vs DarkDrac0
Mana Tithe the Elf. Giant Beats.
33
4. vs Heinsun
Mana Tithe the Lotus. Giant Beats.
33
5. Mirror Match!
Always a draw game.
XX
6. door (:||)
Always win. 4 toughness on the Giant is too much for the Fire, and Path will nuke the manland should ever it animate.
33
8. tomsloger
I knew this was my bad match going in. Always lose.
00
9. keyboardmash
TRICKY!
I'm fairly sure this is always a draw. If Mutavault animates it gets exiled. Mana can always be open for mana tithe to counter the legend. The only correct option is not to play.
11
10. NemataGG
I can always suspend my giant which gets there faster than the boggle.
33
11. Thatmarkguy
I can always suspend my giant. A 3/4 with suspend 5 is still faster than a 1/1. Discard spells cannot touch my win condition as I choose whether or not I discard it.
33
0666X660266
Correct? That seems dern good for my first attempt.
Not strictly accurate; if Mentor is around, the Llanowar Elf tokens can discard a redrawn Ulamog.
I make the token, and then in my turn (if he beasts) I reshuffle the land and Ulamog back in, tapping Llanowar Elf token for mana. And get my beat on.
Round 5
Decks due by Wednesday, November 19th, 5pm PST.
Banned List
Blackmail
Blazing Shoal
Chancellor of the Annex
Dark Depths
Funeral Charm
Ghost Quarter
Inquisition of Kozilek
Laboratory Maniac
Piracy Charm
Shelldock Isle
Smallpox
Thoughtseize
v1: 6-0. I Lush Growth a Cloudpost and d1 never has the 4 mana for Eater.
v2: 0-6. D2 Lush Growths my Inkmoth denying my wincon; I can only lush out either Burnwillows lifegain punishing fire recursion or inkmoth, but not both, and the one I don't shut down kills me.
v3: 2-2. I lush out the Rot Farm, d3 Needles out my Inkmoth, neither of us has a wincon anymore.
v4: 6-0. I Lush the slagheap on T3 and attack for 2-3-3-3 poison on turns 3-4-5-6 and win on my T6. Without Slagheap gaining counters, the best d4 can do is cast Braid on T2, then start casting upkeep Beacons from T6. But being forced to spend that Braid mana in upkeep ensures inability to kill my Inkmoth.
v5: 6-0. D5 casts Form on T4 and theoretically would kill on T8. I can deal lethal poison on my T6.
v6: 0-6. D6 plays T1 Blinkmoth, T2 Dimir Aqueduct, T3 Scepter imprinted, then from T4 is ready to Geth every turn. Whether I Lush the Nexus or the Aqueduct doesn't really help me, and I only get to deal 6 poison (on the play) before I can no longer afford to activate Inky, and Geth's eventually kills me anyway.
v7: 6-0. Ratchet Bomb's nonland clause keeps my land threat safe (too bad Powder Keg isn't modern legal). Inky romps.
v9: 6-0. As above, Inky deals lethal poison on T6. The best overseers can do by T6 is 16 points damage.
Pithing Needle can't hit Lotus Bloom; suspend is not an activated ability, and the mana ability... is a mana ability, which Needle can't prevent.
But you do 6-0 anyway because you are in fact able to Maelstrom Pulse the Form of the Dragon.
Round 6
No new bans for this round. The new meta is still shaping up! As my schedule has been atrocious this week and because I'm so late in getting this up, the deadline for entries is being moved to Monday, December 1st, 5pm PST. The week after will also have an extension to get us back on the every Wednesday schedule. My apologies for the tardiness.
Again, sorry for all of the delays. We'll get back onto the normal schedule this upcoming week.
Cloudpost / Cloudpost / Mountain / Red Sun's Zenith
6-0 beast kills mountain. win at leisurely pace.
2. WhammeWhamme
Lotus Bloom / Lotus Bloom / Barren Glory / Noxious Revival
6-0 needing a permanent to win is bad news against recurring beast
3. Dark_Drac0
Hall of the Bandit Lord / Forest / Devoted Druid / Quillspike
3-3 on the play, you get the win before i can beast. on the draw, not so much.
4. Heinsun
Lotus Bloom / Lotus Bloom / Frost Titan / Gut Shot
6-0 beast a lotus bloom before you can cast titan.
5. Pharmalade
Plains / Ivory Giant / Mana Tithe / Path to Exile
6-0 mana tithe slows me down, but not by enough.
6. door (dooooooooooor)
Grove of the Burnwillows / Inkmoth Nexus / Lush Growth / Punishing Fire
0-6 lush growth totally beats me. can gain infinite life, but poison counters win.
7. Sand_Crab
Mountain / Rite of Flame / Rite of Flame / Boldwyr Heavyweights
6-0 turn 4 kill leaves me time to beast even on the draw
8. tomsloger
Darksteel Citadel / Simic Growth Chamber / Elixir of Immortality / Beast Within
x this is me
9. keyboardmash
Plains / Mutavault / Thalia, Guardian of Thraben / Path to Exile
0-6 thalia stops me. (thought i could tie it by gaining 5 a turn, but with thalia out i can only activate every other turn)
10. NemataGG
Watery Grave / Sea's Claim / Duress / Slippery Bogle
1-4 on the draw, duress takes my elixir. on the play, i life gain forever but seas claim stops me from doing anything to win.
11. thatmarkguy
Swamp / Horrifying Revelation / Simian Spirit Guide / Ravenous Rats
6-0 i think. i see a line of play where mark can get rid of elixir, but i get a 3/3 to his 1/1. there may be another line of play, but i dont see it
8 | 6 6 3 6 6 0 6 X 0 1 6 |
What tomsloger said
vs. Rush_Clasic: Am Faster. 6-0.
vs. Me: Me. X
vs. DarkDrac0: Am slower. 0-6.
vs. Heinsun: Am faster. 6-0.
vs. Pharmalade: Lose to counterspell. 0-6.
vs. door (doooooooor): I don't need lands, am faster. 6-0
vs. Sand_Crab: Am slower. 0-6
vs. tomsloger: need a permanent to win. 0-6
vs. keyboardmash: Lose to Thalia. 0-6
vs. NemataGG: Can win through Duress (thanks to my 4th card) and no lands. 6-0
vs. thatmarkguy: Can win through double discard, thanks to my 4th card. 6-0
(pitch my wincon, then respond to second discard spell by putting it back in... or if he doesn't do that, do it in the upkeep of my win turn)
I've got it as 3-3. When I'm on the play, I'll cast Ravenous Rats on T1. You have to pitch something. Assuming you want to fire elixir at some point you probably want to hold your lands and the elixir so you pitch beast within. On your turn you play... Darksteel Citadel and Elixir, likely. Then on my T2 I play my other discard spell and away goes your Simic Growth Chamber.
Elixir costs 2 to activate. There's no way your Simic Growth Chamber lands (permanently) when I'm on the play and I can make you discard twice before your second turn. Unless all you play is lands and you pitch your Elixir, which is also a win for me.
When you're on the play you've got me. The best I can do is getting rid of your elixir after one Beast Within firing (1. Citadel Elixir - Rats cause you to discard Beast; 2. SGT bounce Citadel - I do nothing; 3. You fire elixir and shuffle, I choose the 'random' result of Beast on top, you draw and cast Beast - I HorrifyRev the Elixir off your deck into grave), as your 3/3 beast overwhelms my 1/1 rat.
That's how I thought it too but some kind soul pointed out in a spreadsheet note how it works for me - as long as I do Rats first on my T1 (and you discard Barren Glory), then on my T2 I cast Horrifying Revelation. That mill clause of HR makes it so that even if you put the Barren Glory atop your library in response, HR will just mill it back into your grave when it resolves. Making me quite glad I went with Horrifying Revelation over other 1-cost discards like Cry of Contrition, Raven's Crime, or Mire's Toll.
Ah! Well, the spreadsheet is made public so that everyone can enter their own scores and comment in cells as to what changes they believe are necessary. All unfilled cells I eventually go through and fill in, so it isn't a requirement. But you can if you like.
1. Rush_Clasic: Can't ever beat RSZ, 0-6
2. WhammeWhamme: Thalia locks out Lotuses, 6-0
3. Dark_Drac0: Path on the Quillspike leaves him with no wincon and I can beat down, 6-0
4. Heinsun: See #2, 6-0
5. Pharmalade: I can never cast Thalia into tithe or activate Mutavault without getting it pathed, but I can path his giant through tithe. 2-2
6. dooooooooooor: Once I play Thalia he can't cast punishing fire, and I can path the inkmoth once he tries to activate it. 6-0
7. Sand_Crab: Path deals with the heavyweights, 6-0
8. tomsloger: Thalia locks out beast within from being cast. He can continue to gain 5 life with Elixer every 2 turns, but I'm dealing 4 damage a turn so I can outrace it. 6-0
10. NemataGG: I can let him Sea's Claim the Mutavault and play Thalia the next turn. Duress only hits Path which is a dead card anyway. 6-0
11. thatmarkguy: I can discard Thalia and Path to his two discard effects and then beat down with Mutavault. 6-0
Edit: 12. mqj: Can't beat 3 3/3s on turn 1. 0-6
monoplainscontrol.dec : Plains, Path to Exile, Ivory Giant, Mana Tithe
1. vs Rush_Classic
I suspect I lose in all outcomes. I will never be able to outrace the Red Sun even if I am able to shrink the damage output with Mana Tithe. Five turns worth of suspend gives a heck of a head start.
00
2. vs WhammeWhamme
Mana Tithe wins countering a Lotus. Giant beats.
33
3. vs DarkDrac0
Mana Tithe the Elf. Giant Beats.
33
4. vs Heinsun
Mana Tithe the Lotus. Giant Beats.
33
5. Mirror Match!
Always a draw game.
XX
6. door (:||)
Always win. 4 toughness on the Giant is too much for the Fire, and Path will nuke the manland should ever it animate.
33
7. Sand_Crab
Always win. Path to Exile removes threat. Ivory Giant wins.
33
8. tomsloger
I knew this was my bad match going in. Always lose.
00
9. keyboardmash
TRICKY!
I'm fairly sure this is always a draw. If Mutavault animates it gets exiled. Mana can always be open for mana tithe to counter the legend. The only correct option is not to play.
11
10. NemataGG
I can always suspend my giant which gets there faster than the boggle.
33
11. Thatmarkguy
I can always suspend my giant. A 3/4 with suspend 5 is still faster than a 1/1. Discard spells cannot touch my win condition as I choose whether or not I discard it.
33
0666X660266
Correct? That seems dern good for my first attempt.
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