Can 5 cast Ulamog on T11? Molten Slagheap is a pay-to-store land. It can't get a storage counter on T1 (barring another nonland mana source). If it gets its storage counters on turns 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, then it can be 'tapped' for 9 mana on T11 (I know it technically doesn't tap to discharge, but it does cost 1, and that 1 is usually paid via tapping the land), Urborg makes 1... that's a total of 10, still 1 shy of the 11-drop. As I see it, Ulamog lands on T12. I think that earns you the 2-2, as 5 has to deal with your Nexus which means you will be able to Charm away the redrawn Smallpox play or draw.
Uhm, but if you're charming away the Smallpox, you're letting the sacced land get recycled and replayed, which means 5 will eventually be able to cast Ulamog. You could charm away the sacced land as it gets drawn, but 5 probably sacced Urborg after charging up a few counters on the 'heap (5 could afford to let Inky swat several times as it worked up a few storage counters), allowing a smallpox play even after discarding Urborg. Hmm. I'm back to thinking the 6-0 was right. You don't even have the same 1-point Funeral Charm play as Rush and I have on the play because you don't have a threat that you can make use of while still being able to respond to Smallpox with Funeral Charm. If you don't attack with inky 5 just stores up for Ulamog; if you do you're not in position to respond to Smallpox with Funeral Charm to force 5 to permanently lose a land.
If it has 10 counters, it taps for 10; you tap it and pay 1 mana to get 10 mana, plus Urborg = 11.
Round 3
We're gonna try one more without bans. Charm came out with a fury, and Smallpox put up another good showing. Are there good ways to be them and the field? Decks due Wednesday, Nov. 5th, at 5pm PST.
Been a busy week. All the scores have been updated and I've finally locked in my deck. Time to go see what y'all submitted. Deadline for submission and changes is a bit over 24 hours.
Yes, I can, because your Leylines boost my tokens as well as yours. When I'm on the play you can only slip 9 points of damage past my faerie(s) before I have an equal then superior force. I'll take several points of damage from Bitterblossom but I can Sundering Vitae it myself if it becomes a life-threatening problem after I've established creature superiority.
On the draw I'm sunk because you get 9 in before my first faerie, 18 before I could stabilize, and Bitterblossom deals me a few points before then too.
I'll post my playdown too. Wouldve this morning but was sick in bed most of the day.
I'm deck6
v1: 6-0. With 1 on the play it plays Lotus Blooms on T1, they get cast on T4 as does Barren Glory, and that wins upkeep of T5. I play Bitterblossom on my T1, and even after the first faerie I get on T2 gets gutshotted, the faeries I get on T3 and T4 allow me to convoke out the Sundering Vitae and pop Barren Glory.
v2: 3-3. As covered above, the Leylines make my faeries bigger too, which allows me to stabilize and overcome on the play, but not on the draw.
v3: 3-3. With 3 on the play, 3 plays Liquimetal Coating on T2, and can Grudge my Bitterblossom on 3's T3, while I only have one faerie. I can never cast Sundering Vitae, and Mutavault wrecks me. With me on the play, I can SVitae the Liquimetal Coating after it gets cast but before it can get used-with-grudge (because I get my second Faerie on my T3), then I keep two Faeries at home (including the summoning sick one) to scare off Mutavault while I attack with the rest ... dealing 1-2-3-4-5-6 turns 4-5-6-7-8-9, taking 8 points of damage from Bitterblossom and 2 from the Mutavault that atatcks the turn after I SVitae.
V4: 6-0. Just like V2, Leyline of the Meek helps my tokens keep pace with goblins. With 4 on the play it attacks for 4 on T1, OI cast bitterblossom, it attacks for 4 on T2, I lose life and get a faerie, it attacks for 2 on t3 as we trade, I lose a life and get another faerie, and 2 turns later I sunder my Bitterblossom and go all victory through air power (leaving one faerie at home if there's still a goblin alive).
V5: 3-3. If 5 plays first I'm just wrecked by the shoal. If I play first a faerie is in place to block the inkmoth on its intended T2 death swing (and from then on my summoning-sick faerie is always in place for that). The earliest 5 can cast Blasphemous act is on T6 (I have 5 faeries in place and the slagheap has 4 counters on it, (one turn earlier 4 faeries + 3 slagheap + Nexus would be one shy). Even still 5 has taken 1+2+3+4 damage on turns 3-4-5-6, and will take another 1+2+3+4 on turns 8-9-10-11, well becfore Bitterblossom kills me.
v7: 3-3. Meddling Mage meddles on the play and wrecks me. On the draw I let the Student whack me a few times while I work up an air force, then I start chumping the student every turn with my new faerie while the rest of my force flies over and wreaks havoc.
v8: 6-0. I play Bitterblossom on T1, and am in position to respond to one of Elixir activations with SVitae then eventually overwhelm with faeries (either keeping 3 back to threaten to kill beast, or just keeping 1 back to chump, either way I overwhelm long before getting in danger).
v9: 6-0. Funeral charm is ineffective at discard because I can always toss the Chancellor. So it's just a Faerie-killer. I will be able to SVitae the opposing Bitterblossom and then overwhelm thereafter.
2. WhammeWhamme Leyline of the Meek / Leyline of the Meek / Great Furnace / Kuldotha Rebirth
listed 0-6, should be 3-3
on the play, whamme gets one attack in for 9 before i get a 5/5 beast. the beast can block one 3/3 and i take another 6. then i gain 5, up to 10. 2 tokens can attack and i still have a blocker. youre too fast when im on the draw though.
6. thatmarkguy Gemstone Mine / Chancellor of the Tangle / Bitterblossom / Sundering Vitae
listed 0-6, should be 6-0
sundering vitae cant actually get rid of elixir unless i dont have mana up to activate it because if you kill it in response to activation, it just shuffles into my library from the graveyard. so i cast and activate the same turn always.
results for:
6. thatmarkguy Gemstone Mine / Chancellor of the Tangle / Bitterblossom / Sundering Vitae
listed 0-6, should be 6-0
sundering vitae cant actually get rid of elixir unless i dont have mana up to activate it because if you kill it in response to activation, it just shuffles into my library from the graveyard. so i cast and activate the same turn always.
(face_palm)
Hadn't considered that, but indeed that is how Elixir works. Needed an exile effect. Doh.
Why *is* it "Clasic" rather than "Classic", anyway?
I applied tom's correction on the match v me; tom's correction v whamme isn't applied nor noted on the table; neither is door's correction v mqj (as described at NGA). If those changes apply and stand, there'll be a grand total of one point separating 1st from 4th (2 31s and 2 30s).
Three rounds in and the format is shaping up. Blazing Shoal has won twice now and looks prime for banning, so it's officially on the watch list. Funeral Charm (and by association, Piracy Charm) are also being given the watchful eye, though neither did much this round.
Round 4
Decks due by Wednesday, November 12th, 5pm PST.
Now seems as good a time as any to start banning things. So, make your voice heard about what you'd like to see banned, and from here on out, we'll start adding things to the list. (Maybe even set up a concrete system that forces bans. Or not. We'll see.)
I find the problem to be less ban list and more first/second turn discard.
vs 1 - RushClasic: Cast Mentor. If it gets Missstepped, Funeral Charm self to reshuffle and replay. 6-0
vs 2 - door (dooooooooor): Cast Mentor. If it gets cracked, opponent loses either land, or creature. If land, plenty of time to reshuffle and redraw. If creature, can do it again too soon, so draw. On the play, get a token too soon. 4-1
vs 3 - tomsloger: Can't stop the Mentor. Ulamog wins. 6-0
vs 5 - Sand_Crab: Funeral Charm kills Mayor. Tokens block Thrun and swing back, or accumulate to Ulamog. 6-0
vs 6 - Dark_Drac0: Funeral Charm kills Rhys, Eldrazi Mentor wins. 6-0
vs 7 - Heinsun: Ulamog comes down too fast! 6-0
vs 8 - mqj: Funeral Charm stops him cold. 6-0
Amendment (made on grid): RushClasic seems to have assumed countering my Mentor is enough for a tie; it is not. I can reshuffle it back in. So 6-0, not 2-2.
7. Heinsun Swamp / Lotus Bloom / Duress / Windborn Muse
6-0 on the play, all goes to plan. on the draw duress can take elixir but my creature is bigger and i can pay to attack.
Hrm. I could be wrong... I misremembered Beast Within's text. I think I do get a lot of damage in if you Beast away Mentor, though, and I can reshuffle into it by using Funeral Charm. I officially think that "I have no idea" is the right answer for the matchup.
I find the problem to be less ban list and more first/second turn discard.
I'd be willing to move to a no first turn discard rule if people seem to want it. I think the problem is more that the Charms are good removal on top of being discard, making them useful on the play and draw.
Hrm. I could be wrong... I misremembered Beast Within's text. I think I do get a lot of damage in if you Beast away Mentor, though, and I can reshuffle into it by using Funeral Charm. I officially think that "I have no idea" is the right answer for the matchup.
I think the match-up actually plays out in tom's favor without too many decision trees to focus on. Playing the Charm as early as possible allows for the least amount of damage to get in from Beast tokens, so we start there. Let's put Whamme's deck on the play.
And from here WhammeWhamme has to start chump blocking. Attacking back doesn't work because of the lifegain. Chumping earlier doesn't work because it never allows you to get to critical mass of elves. Gang blocking doesn't work because tom gets two Beast tokens every five turns (oddly enough), which overwhelms the tokens. I can't find a way that tom doesn't win this.
I find the problem to be less ban list and more first/second turn discard.
I'd be willing to move to a no first turn discard rule if people seem to want it. I think the problem is more that the Charms are good removal on top of being discard, making them useful on the play and draw.
Hrm. I could be wrong... I misremembered Beast Within's text. I think I do get a lot of damage in if you Beast away Mentor, though, and I can reshuffle into it by using Funeral Charm. I officially think that "I have no idea" is the right answer for the matchup.
I think the match-up actually plays out in tom's favor without too many decision trees to focus on. Playing the Charm as early as possible allows for the least amount of damage to get in from Beast tokens, so we start there. Let's put Whamme's deck on the play.
And from here WhammeWhamme has to start chump blocking. Attacking back doesn't work because of the lifegain. Chumping earlier doesn't work because it never allows you to get to critical mass of elves. Gang blocking doesn't work because tom gets two Beast tokens every five turns (oddly enough), which overwhelms the tokens. I can't find a way that tom doesn't win this.
I'm not sure that particular tree is the best one... Charm is an Instant, and I need tokens, so surely I make Elves *first*? Also, surely I *want* to use Charm in the draw step where he redraws Elixir to stop the recursion? (it's a random order, so obviously it's going to go in my favour if I just sandbag it).
So yeah, if he makes tokens for himself first I win, and if he kills my land I get a lot of beatdown going and reshuffle the land in anyway, so we need to use a tree where he kills Mentor.
As for the discard rule: Smallpox is the other half of the meta. It's not JUST the Charms that are a problem.
I'm not sure that particular tree is the best one... Charm is an Instant, and I need tokens, so surely I make Elves *first*? Also, surely I *want* to use Charm in the draw step where he redraws Elixir to stop the recursion? (it's a random order, so obviously it's going to go in my favour if I just sandbag it).
So yeah, if he makes tokens for himself first I win, and if he kills my land I get a lot of beatdown going and reshuffle the land in anyway, so we need to use a tree where he kills Mentor.
Oh, wow, I totally forgot about discard during the draw step. I'll work on some more trees and see if something definitive exists.
As for the discard rule: Smallpox is the other half of the meta. It's not JUST the Charms that are a problem.
Well, Smallpox is the same "discard that kills threats" issue, but worse since it nabs lands too. I see changing the rule and banning the cards both as viable options. I prefer the latter since it doesn't require an overhaul, it sets the precedent for future bannings, and it hits cards that have been problems in the past.
Things we know about the match-up:
- Tom can Beast the land after Ulamog's trigger resolves. If Tom does so successfully, the eventual 3/3 tokens made from recursion will overwhelm Whamme.
- Whamme can force Elixir to be discarded during the draw step, giving the 1/1s tokens eventuality.
- Whamme can force Ulamog to be discarded to regain any missing piece so long as Tomb remains untapped.
- Beast and Charm are both instants, so a bit of a staring war could ensue.
Let's start with Tom on the play.
1. T: Citadel, Elixir - W: Tomb (20/18), Mentor
2. T: Turf - W: ...
3. T: ... [If Whamme EOT makes a token, Tom Beasts the Tomb after Ulamog triggers) - W: ... [EOT, Beast the Mentor] Charm Ulamog out of hand (deck gets stacked top to bottom Ulamog, Charm, Mentor)
4. T: Upkeep activate Elixir (25/18) draw and cast Elixir - W: Draw Ulamog, attack (22/18)
5. T: Draw and cast Beast on Tomb - W: Attack with two tokens (16/18)
6. T: Upkeep activate Elixir (21/18), draw Beast - W: Attack with two tokens (15/18)
7. T: Draw Elixir, cast Beast on Citadel - W: Attack with two tokens (one gets blocked and traded) (12/18)
8. T: Cast and activate Elixir (17/18) - W: Attack (14/18)
9. T: Draw and cast Elixir - W: Attack (11/18)
10. T: Draw and cast Beast
And from there tom wins. Whamme on the play gets a 1/1 token to help things out, but that only nets an extra 1 damage per turn until Beasts overwhelm, which isn't enough to offset the Elixir life-gain. I think this covers all the routes, though it's a complex match-up, so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something.
Okay after going over the matchups very quickly I think my score is: 5| 6 0 0 0 X 6 6 6 | 24. Again, I do not claim perfection and if that's right I'm surprised my deck did that well!
All you people with your spells, and lines of play. Just play creatures and bash
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If it has 10 counters, it taps for 10; you tap it and pay 1 mana to get 10 mana, plus Urborg = 11.
We're gonna try one more without bans. Charm came out with a fury, and Smallpox put up another good showing. Are there good ways to be them and the field? Decks due Wednesday, Nov. 5th, at 5pm PST.
1) vs. Rush_Clasic: I'm faster. 6-0
3) vs. dor (dooooooooooor): On the play, he can either Liquikill enchantments (too slow) or tokens (leaves me with a 3/3 token to win with). 6-0
4) vs. Dark_Drac0: I have more, and bigger, tokens. 6-0
5) mqj: This deck is simply too awesome. The designer is a genius. 0-6
6) thatmarkguy: Simply can't interact favourably. 6-0
7) BronYAur: On the draw, locked out by MM. On the play, ground stall. 1-4
8) tomsloger: By the time he does anything, he's dead. 6-0
9) Sand_Crab: 3 2/2 tokens is sufficient, so I keep Leyline in hand. 6-0
As always, I am human, may have made mistakes.
Yes, I can, because your Leylines boost my tokens as well as yours. When I'm on the play you can only slip 9 points of damage past my faerie(s) before I have an equal then superior force. I'll take several points of damage from Bitterblossom but I can Sundering Vitae it myself if it becomes a life-threatening problem after I've established creature superiority.
On the draw I'm sunk because you get 9 in before my first faerie, 18 before I could stabilize, and Bitterblossom deals me a few points before then too.
3-3.
I'm deck6
v1: 6-0. With 1 on the play it plays Lotus Blooms on T1, they get cast on T4 as does Barren Glory, and that wins upkeep of T5. I play Bitterblossom on my T1, and even after the first faerie I get on T2 gets gutshotted, the faeries I get on T3 and T4 allow me to convoke out the Sundering Vitae and pop Barren Glory.
v2: 3-3. As covered above, the Leylines make my faeries bigger too, which allows me to stabilize and overcome on the play, but not on the draw.
v3: 3-3. With 3 on the play, 3 plays Liquimetal Coating on T2, and can Grudge my Bitterblossom on 3's T3, while I only have one faerie. I can never cast Sundering Vitae, and Mutavault wrecks me. With me on the play, I can SVitae the Liquimetal Coating after it gets cast but before it can get used-with-grudge (because I get my second Faerie on my T3), then I keep two Faeries at home (including the summoning sick one) to scare off Mutavault while I attack with the rest ... dealing 1-2-3-4-5-6 turns 4-5-6-7-8-9, taking 8 points of damage from Bitterblossom and 2 from the Mutavault that atatcks the turn after I SVitae.
V4: 6-0. Just like V2, Leyline of the Meek helps my tokens keep pace with goblins. With 4 on the play it attacks for 4 on T1, OI cast bitterblossom, it attacks for 4 on T2, I lose life and get a faerie, it attacks for 2 on t3 as we trade, I lose a life and get another faerie, and 2 turns later I sunder my Bitterblossom and go all victory through air power (leaving one faerie at home if there's still a goblin alive).
V5: 3-3. If 5 plays first I'm just wrecked by the shoal. If I play first a faerie is in place to block the inkmoth on its intended T2 death swing (and from then on my summoning-sick faerie is always in place for that). The earliest 5 can cast Blasphemous act is on T6 (I have 5 faeries in place and the slagheap has 4 counters on it, (one turn earlier 4 faeries + 3 slagheap + Nexus would be one shy). Even still 5 has taken 1+2+3+4 damage on turns 3-4-5-6, and will take another 1+2+3+4 on turns 8-9-10-11, well becfore Bitterblossom kills me.
v7: 3-3. Meddling Mage meddles on the play and wrecks me. On the draw I let the Student whack me a few times while I work up an air force, then I start chumping the student every turn with my new faerie while the rest of my force flies over and wreaks havoc.
v8: 6-0. I play Bitterblossom on T1, and am in position to respond to one of Elixir activations with SVitae then eventually overwhelm with faeries (either keeping 3 back to threaten to kill beast, or just keeping 1 back to chump, either way I overwhelm long before getting in danger).
v9: 6-0. Funeral charm is ineffective at discard because I can always toss the Chancellor. So it's just a Faerie-killer. I will be able to SVitae the opposing Bitterblossom and then overwhelm thereafter.
8. tomslogger (should be tomsloger, but meh)
Darksteel Citade / Selesnya Sanctuary / Elixir of Immortality / Beast from Within
1. Rush_Clasic
Lotus Bloom / Lotus Bloom / Gut Shot / Barren Glory
6-0 agreed
2. WhammeWhamme
Leyline of the Meek / Leyline of the Meek / Great Furnace / Kuldotha Rebirth
listed 0-6, should be 3-3
on the play, whamme gets one attack in for 9 before i get a 5/5 beast. the beast can block one 3/3 and i take another 6. then i gain 5, up to 10. 2 tokens can attack and i still have a blocker. youre too fast when im on the draw though.
3. door (dooooooooooor)
Copperline Gorge / Mutavault / Ancient Grudge / Liquidmetal Coating
0-6 lose to destroying sanctuary
4. Dark_Drac0
Chancellor of the Forge / Chancellor of the Forge / Leyline of the Meek / Leyline of the Void
listed 2-2, should be 6-0.
you only do 4 damage per turn, and i can gain 5 per turn even through leyline of the void. once i give myself a huge life cushion, i bw the void first and begin to do my thing.
5. mqj
Inkmoth Nexus / Molten Slagheap / Blazing Shoal / Blasphemous Act
0-6 agreed
6. thatmarkguy
Gemstone Mine / Chancellor of the Tangle / Bitterblossom / Sundering Vitae
listed 0-6, should be 6-0
sundering vitae cant actually get rid of elixir unless i dont have mana up to activate it because if you kill it in response to activation, it just shuffles into my library from the graveyard. so i cast and activate the same turn always.
7. BronYAur
Seachrome Coast / Chrome Mox / Meddling Mage / Student of Warfare
2-2 agreed
9. Sand_Crab
Darkslick Shores / Simian Spirit Guide / Funeral Charm / Bitterblossom
6-0 inevitability.
8 | 6 3 0 6 0 6 2 X 6 | 29
(face_palm)
Hadn't considered that, but indeed that is how Elixir works. Needed an exile effect. Doh.
As someone whose user name is constantly misspelled, I apologize. (And have changed it in the spreadsheet.)
I applied tom's correction on the match v me; tom's correction v whamme isn't applied nor noted on the table; neither is door's correction v mqj (as described at NGA). If those changes apply and stand, there'll be a grand total of one point separating 1st from 4th (2 31s and 2 30s).
Three rounds in and the format is shaping up. Blazing Shoal has won twice now and looks prime for banning, so it's officially on the watch list. Funeral Charm (and by association, Piracy Charm) are also being given the watchful eye, though neither did much this round.
Round 4
Decks due by Wednesday, November 12th, 5pm PST.
Banned List
Blackmail
Chancellor of the Annex
Dark Depths
Ghost Quarter
Inquisition of Kozilek
Laboratory Maniac
Shelldock Isle
Thoughtseize
Now seems as good a time as any to start banning things. So, make your voice heard about what you'd like to see banned, and from here on out, we'll start adding things to the list. (Maybe even set up a concrete system that forces bans. Or not. We'll see.)
vs 1 - RushClasic: Cast Mentor. If it gets Missstepped, Funeral Charm self to reshuffle and replay. 6-0
vs 2 - door (dooooooooor): Cast Mentor. If it gets cracked, opponent loses either land, or creature. If land, plenty of time to reshuffle and redraw. If creature, can do it again too soon, so draw. On the play, get a token too soon. 4-1
vs 3 - tomsloger: Can't stop the Mentor. Ulamog wins. 6-0
vs 5 - Sand_Crab: Funeral Charm kills Mayor. Tokens block Thrun and swing back, or accumulate to Ulamog. 6-0
vs 6 - Dark_Drac0: Funeral Charm kills Rhys, Eldrazi Mentor wins. 6-0
vs 7 - Heinsun: Ulamog comes down too fast! 6-0
vs 8 - mqj: Funeral Charm stops him cold. 6-0
Amendment (made on grid): RushClasic seems to have assumed countering my Mentor is enough for a tie; it is not. I can reshuffle it back in. So 6-0, not 2-2.
3. tomsloger
Darksteel Citadel / Gruul Turf / Elixir of Immortality / Beast Within
Chancellor of the Forge / Mental Misstep / Disrupting Shoal / Snapback
0-6 mental misstep beats elixir
2. door (dooooooooooor)
Copperline Gorge / Utopia Mycon / Crack the Earth / Noxious Revival
0-6 crack the earth beats my karoo
4. WhammeWhamme
Overgrown Tomb / Llanowar Mentor / Funeral Charm / Ulamog the Infinite
6-0 per later post
5. Sand_Crab
Untaidake, the Cloud Keeper / Golgari Rot Farm / Thrun, the Last Troll / Mayor of Avabruck
6-0 destroy rot farm
6. Dark_Drac0
Breeding Pool / Training Grounds / Rhys the Redeemed / Joraga Treespeaker
6-0 destroy rhys
7. Heinsun
Swamp / Lotus Bloom / Duress / Windborn Muse
6-0 on the play, all goes to plan. on the draw duress can take elixir but my creature is bigger and i can pay to attack.
8. mqj
Urza's Tower / Urza's Power Plant / Urza's Mine / Batterskull
6-0 i destroy a land.
3 | 0 0 X 6 6 6 6 6 | 30
edit:
whamme listed our matchup differently. i need to think about it and come back.
I'd be willing to move to a no first turn discard rule if people seem to want it. I think the problem is more that the Charms are good removal on top of being discard, making them useful on the play and draw.
I think the match-up actually plays out in tom's favor without too many decision trees to focus on. Playing the Charm as early as possible allows for the least amount of damage to get in from Beast tokens, so we start there. Let's put Whamme's deck on the play.
W: Tomb (18/20) Charm - T: Citadel, Elixir
W: Mentor T: Turf
W: token T: upkeep activate Elixir (18/25), draw Beast
W: token [2] T: draw Elixir, play Beast, token
W: token [3] T: play and activate Elixir, attack (15/30)
W: token [4] T: draw and play Elixir, attack (12/30)
W: token [5] T: play Beast, token [2] attack (9/30)
W: token [6] T: upkeep activate Elixir, draw Beast, attack (3/35)
And from here WhammeWhamme has to start chump blocking. Attacking back doesn't work because of the lifegain. Chumping earlier doesn't work because it never allows you to get to critical mass of elves. Gang blocking doesn't work because tom gets two Beast tokens every five turns (oddly enough), which overwhelms the tokens. I can't find a way that tom doesn't win this.
I'm not sure that particular tree is the best one... Charm is an Instant, and I need tokens, so surely I make Elves *first*? Also, surely I *want* to use Charm in the draw step where he redraws Elixir to stop the recursion? (it's a random order, so obviously it's going to go in my favour if I just sandbag it).
So yeah, if he makes tokens for himself first I win, and if he kills my land I get a lot of beatdown going and reshuffle the land in anyway, so we need to use a tree where he kills Mentor.
As for the discard rule: Smallpox is the other half of the meta. It's not JUST the Charms that are a problem.
So I can! No idea how I missed that since that's the whole purpose of my deck.
Oh, wow, I totally forgot about discard during the draw step. I'll work on some more trees and see if something definitive exists.
Well, Smallpox is the same "discard that kills threats" issue, but worse since it nabs lands too. I see changing the rule and banning the cards both as viable options. I prefer the latter since it doesn't require an overhaul, it sets the precedent for future bannings, and it hits cards that have been problems in the past.
Things we know about the match-up:
- Tom can Beast the land after Ulamog's trigger resolves. If Tom does so successfully, the eventual 3/3 tokens made from recursion will overwhelm Whamme.
- Whamme can force Elixir to be discarded during the draw step, giving the 1/1s tokens eventuality.
- Whamme can force Ulamog to be discarded to regain any missing piece so long as Tomb remains untapped.
- Beast and Charm are both instants, so a bit of a staring war could ensue.
Let's start with Tom on the play.
1. T: Citadel, Elixir - W: Tomb (20/18), Mentor
2. T: Turf - W: ...
3. T: ... [If Whamme EOT makes a token, Tom Beasts the Tomb after Ulamog triggers) - W: ... [EOT, Beast the Mentor] Charm Ulamog out of hand (deck gets stacked top to bottom Ulamog, Charm, Mentor)
4. T: Upkeep activate Elixir (25/18) draw and cast Elixir - W: Draw Ulamog, attack (22/18)
5. T: Draw and cast Beast on Tomb - W: Attack with two tokens (16/18)
6. T: Upkeep activate Elixir (21/18), draw Beast - W: Attack with two tokens (15/18)
7. T: Draw Elixir, cast Beast on Citadel - W: Attack with two tokens (one gets blocked and traded) (12/18)
8. T: Cast and activate Elixir (17/18) - W: Attack (14/18)
9. T: Draw and cast Elixir - W: Attack (11/18)
10. T: Draw and cast Beast
And from there tom wins. Whamme on the play gets a 1/1 token to help things out, but that only nets an extra 1 damage per turn until Beasts overwhelm, which isn't enough to offset the Elixir life-gain. I think this covers all the routes, though it's a complex match-up, so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something.
All you people with your spells, and lines of play. Just play creatures and bash