I'm going to stick with the bi-weekly vote/play plan for now if it works for everyone else. Does anyone have ideas for the next format? I'm still excited about the random card auction from last week.
The format this week:
7 Card Backbuild: Submit 7 cards that begin the game in your hand. You don't lose due to drawing from an empty library. Your deck must beat the test deck (below), but attempt to lose to every other deck. Good luck!
*Note: I'm going through a lot now and probably will only be popping in now and then. I'll still moderate, just don't expect a consistently high level of quality or attention for the next few weeks.
The plan is to use Rhystic Cave to charge Fungal Reaches until it can cast Prototype Portal. From there, the Portal will eventually create a bunch of North Stars, until I can cast 19 Whispers of the Muse, and storm out with Grapeshot.
Ignore my previous two decks Dwarven Hold gets 18 counters on turn 19. Turn 20, cast Talara's Bane with Wizard School, hitting Sanctum Plowbeast (26 life, 15 counters). Turn 21, cast Panoptic Mirror with Hold and School (11 counters). Turn 22, imprint Chaotic Backlash with hold and school (7 counters). Turn 23, cast Roar of Reclamation with the remaining counters, Wizard's School, and Rainbow Vale. Kill on turn 33 upkeep.
Card Blind Labratory (LabCB) is a weekly Magic tournament, run entirely within this forum. To compete, players submit decks which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
Unlike other Card Blind formats, LabCB does not have a consistent format that players always use. Instead, each round is different, with changing rules and card counts.
1. Game Rules
1.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules for a normal game of Magic.
1.2. Players' decks contain exactly X cards, where X is equal to the round's format card count, which begin the game in hand. Players do not mulligan or sideboard.
1.3. A player does not lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.4. A random effect produces the result that least benefits the owner of the source of the effect.
1.5. Each player plays two games (one match) against each other player.
1.5a. Each player is the starting player once per match.
1.5b. If no player can win, then the game is a draw.
1.5c. Games are played with perfect information.
1.5d. Games are played optimally; players attempt to win, draw, or extend the game – in that order.
1.6 If any rules specific to the week's format conflict with the rules listed here, these rules are overridden.
1.7 If any rules disputes occur between players during a weekly format, the format's creator has the final word over the interpretation of his or her format. If the creator is not available before the beginning of the next round, the moderator has the final word.
2. Tournament Rules
2.1. Players submit their decks to the 2CB moderator.
2.1a. Players submit their decks by private message (pm).
2.1b. A player may submit multiple decks, but only the most recent deck is counted.
2.1c. An illegal deck is not counted. At the moderator’s discretion, an illegal deck may be replaced by a similar deck – in which any offending cards have been removed or replaced.
2.1d. The moderator determines the result of each match. Players may challenge results, but not after the results of the first round belonging to a new month have been posted (see Rule 2.4a).
2.1e. A player may name his or her deck. If a player does not, then the moderator may name it.
2.2. Decks are subject to some restrictions.
2.2a. A player may not submit a deck that can't win both games of a match against at least one deck satisfying all rules.
2.2b. A deck may include any number of any card that will become legal in Vintage upon release of a set that has been revealed fully and officially since the start of the round.
2.2c. A deck may include any number of any card legal in Vintage (Type 1).
2.2d. A deck may not include any cards listed on the banned list, which changes and is posted with the format of the round.
2.3. Points determine tournament standings.
2.3a. Players are ranked – first to last – in order of decreasing number of points.
2.3b. For each match, a player earns 3 points per game win and 1 point per drawn game. However, a player earns only 2 points for a split match (a win and a loss).
2.3c. The combined result of both games in a match is called a "match result". Possible match results are: 6 – two game wins, 4 – a win and a draw, 3 or 2 or S – a win and a loss, 2 – two draws, and 1 – a draw and a loss.
2.3d. A table of match results is posted each round. Its rows represent players and its columns represent opponents. A player's points are listed at the end of his or her row.
2.4. The player with the most Player of the Month (POTM) points over the course of a month is the Player of the Month.
2.4a. A month includes all rounds for which decks are due during that month.
2.4b. Each round, each player receives POTM points equal to his or her average match result for that round multiplied by 100, rounded to the nearest integer. For example, a player scoring 6-6-6-6-X-0-0-0 in a round with 8 decks receives 343 POTM points (24 / 7 x 100 = 342.8 Rounded to 343).
2.4c. Each round, for one week after the submitted decks have been posted, 50 POTM points will be awarded to the first player to post a deck that scores 6 points against each submitted deck.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
My deck should work like this (when it works at all, which is distressingly often):
-Put 4 counters on land (T1-5)
-Cast North Star (T6)
-Put 7 counters on land (T7-13)
-Cast a North Star-enabled Time Elemental (T14)
-Put 6 counters on land (T15-20)
-Cast Gnaw to the Bone, saccing Time Elemental (T21)
-Put 7 counters on land (T22-28)
-Cast Altar of Bone, gain 2 life (T29)
-Put 8 counters on land (T30-37)
-Cast Celestial Convergence (T38)
Win in my upkeep on T45.
I can gain 2 more life at the cost of waiting 8 more turns by flashing back Altar of Bone. I think that's the only other line of play that this deck has.
vs ajfirecracker:
I can always force a draw by thwarting your Rhystic Cave, but then I can't do anything either that turn. So it's a wash except that it means I can't 6-0.
You only need to cast 3 Whispers of the Muse and one Grapeshot on one turn to force the draw, which takes 31 mana (3 whispers + 2 buybacks + 1 grapeshot + 4 North Star activations). You get your mirror on T6 and your 4th North Star on T26. So your 31st counter goes on the land on T57 and you go off on T58, far too late to matter.
0-6.
vs. Casual Johnny:
Your wincon is way slower than mine. Again you only need to gain 4 life to force the draw, but even that means the Naked Singularity needs to stick around for 7 turns, which requires 28*3=84 counters.
0-6
vs error1:
I have no 1-casting-cost creature which auto-sacrifices when put into play. You have no way of disrupting me.
0-6
vs Reyemile:
You can get Chaotic Backlash imprinted on Panoptic Mirror before I can profitably cast Celestial Convergence. Once you do, I have no wincon. As I have no green or white artifact creatures, you also have no wincon.
2-2
vs Shogun17:
Blah blah Rhystic Cave I can't win.
2 Inquisitions suffice to disrupt my wincon, and you can get them long before I've assembled everything.
2-2
vs Antonia:
I think I just plain outrace you, and we don't interact.
0-6
vs. WhammeWhamme
You have no wincon against me.
0-6
vs Parsley
I outrace you.
0-6
vs fnord:
You can use your Rejuvenation Chamber an extra few times to ensure that you always have more than 24 life, negating my wincon.
6-0
vs Tane:
If you ever cast the soldier, I can delay a turn to kill it before it gets to attack. If you never cast the soldier, I win.
5 v 4: I can't interact with him in any way; his combo kills me. 6-0
As long as I have Celestial Convergence out, you can ping me for 2/turn, which is enough that you'll win when the last counter comes off. So I can't cast it, and we draw.
wow. Fnord's deck gives me a headache, AND seasickness. all that sacrificing and recursion, life gain and life loss. I think I'd need some more calculus classes to figure out what's going on.
love the joke deck ben. turn 2 13/13 flying infect man-land is beasty.
man, not even whamme's deck can beat it!
I think whamme might have messed up his submission. I don't think he meant for lotus+ channel to let him cast one of his chancellors.--maybe he thought it's ability exiled it?
anyway, my grid
deck no2: 2 x 0 6 2 2 0 2 6 2 0 6 total: 28
I did fairly well considering I was less concerned with specific matchups than with finding the slowest possible win condition.:cool: My alternate name for this deck was OVER 9000!
My deck wins (0) against decks with no win condition vs me (and TANE's deck, which amounts to the same thing)
draws (2) against decks that could use my win con against me or require aborting my wincon to stop, and loses (6) to non interactive decks with quicker win conditions.
@carolingian if you can force a draw, then you do so, this changes some of your posted results. Edit: nevermind, since you can win those matches you win instead of drawing. brain fart made me see 0-6 as a loss instead of a win. d'oh.
My brain explodes from even trying to think about these decks... can someone help with my grid?
I think my matchups go like this:
Faster opponent who can actually win: I lose, gaining 6 points.
Slower/can't actually win, but stops Rhystic Cave: We draw 2-2
Slower/can't actually win, can't stop Cave: I win, gaining 0 points
With some exceptions, like Warp Artifact -> draw (since I'd never play out any of my artifacts)
My main issue is sorting out which falls into which category. I'm honestly not certain which decks are faster than mine (except in very obvious cases) and which ones can/can't win (in some cases).
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I am the author of the "Resource Advantage in Magic" series over on EternalCentral.com
That's too bad feyd. Does anyone have any ideas for the next format? Do you guys want to try this one again? I need to put up a poll on friday.
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Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
This was fun...once. But I think it's clear that it just ends up with a lot of 2-2s. I'm ready to pass on it.
How about a stepping-stone card blind format? You submits a 1CB deck, then add a card to make a 2cb deck, then add a card to make a 3cb deck? So, for example:
Hm, that's an idea. I guess you'd average the scores from each of the three? Or 3 grids, then average the scores? Is there any way to make the backbuild result in less draws? Maybe eliminate the test deck, have an opponent with no hand, and have a rule:
"If a card requires information about any opponents' zones, that information is assumed such that the card does the least that it can. This only applies during deck construction."
It doesn't sound right, but it makes Nyxathid a 0/0 at the same time as eliminating the cards like Chaotic Backlash that can only abuse the test deck. I'm sure there's a better wording.
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Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Is there any way to make the backbuild result in less draws? Maybe eliminate the test deck, have an opponent with no hand, and have a rule:
"If a card requires information about any opponents' zones, that information is assumed such that the card does the least that it can. This only applies during deck construction."
It doesn't sound right, but it makes Nyxathid a 0/0 at the same time as eliminating the cards like Chaotic Backlash that can only abuse the test deck. I'm sure there's a better wording.
It might help to require that each entry beats both the test deck and an empty deck.
Or each deck must beat any deck generated by taking the test deck and replacing any number of cards (including 0) with either any basic land or nothing.
Hm, that's an idea. I guess you'd average the scores from each of the three? Or 3 grids, then average the scores?
Probably the second; the reason this format goes in the lab it to test if it's worth all the trouble of calculating a LOT of matchups. I think it would be, but then, I invented it
It might help to require that each entry beats both the test deck and an empty deck.
Or each deck must beat any deck generated by taking the test deck and replacing any number of cards (including 0) with either any basic land or nothing.
A gauntlet of test decks makes life interesting. Particularly if some of the test decks are capable of winning (not necessarily good at it, but capable)
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The format this week:
7 Card Backbuild: Submit 7 cards that begin the game in your hand. You don't lose due to drawing from an empty library. Your deck must beat the test deck (below), but attempt to lose to every other deck. Good luck!
Test deck: Evermind + Circling vultures + Darksteel relic + Brutal suppression + Adventurer's guildhouse + Sanctum plowbeast + Land Grant
*Note: I'm going through a lot now and probably will only be popping in now and then. I'll still moderate, just don't expect a consistently high level of quality or attention for the next few weeks.
1 ajfirecracker
2 casual Johnny :: Naked Endurance*
3 Error1
Rhystic Cave / Jeweled Amulet / Mycosynth Lattice / Channel / Wild Evocation / Agadeem Occultist / Minion Reflector
4 Carolingian Tortoise
5 Reyemile :: Third Time's a charm
6 Shogun17
7 Antonia :: A Crisis of Infinite Norins*
8 WhammeWhamme :: A Warped Sense of Humour*
9 Parsley
10 fnord
11 Tane :: Because Reyemile said so*
12 benbuzz790 :: Kicking Puppies*
*Self Named
Grid in progress
X | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2
1 | X 2 2 6 2 2 0 2 6 0 0 6 | 28 |
2 | 2 X 0 6 2 2 0 2 6 2 0 6 | 28 |
3 | 2 6 X 6 2 _ 2 6 _ _ _ 6 |
4 | 0 0 0 X 2 2 0 0 0 6 0 6 | 16 |
5 | 2 2 2 2 X 2 2 2 0 6 0 6 | 26 |
6 | 2 2 _ 2 2 X 6 6 _ _ _ 6 |
7 | 6 0 2 2 2 0 X 0 0 _ 0 6 |
8 | 6 2 0 2 2 0 6 X 0 6 2 6 | 30 |
9 | 0 0 _ 6 6 _ 6 6 X _ _ 6 | at least 30 !
0 | 6 2 _ 0 0 _ _ 0 _ X _ 6 |
1 | 6 6 _ 6 6 _ 6 2 _ _ X 6 | at least 32 !
2 | 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 | 0
Looks like I lost this round.
Card Blind Labratory (LabCB) is a weekly Magic tournament, run entirely within this forum. To compete, players submit decks which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
Unlike other Card Blind formats, LabCB does not have a consistent format that players always use. Instead, each round is different, with changing rules and card counts.
1. Game Rules
1.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules for a normal game of Magic.
1.2. Players' decks contain exactly X cards, where X is equal to the round's format card count, which begin the game in hand. Players do not mulligan or sideboard.
1.3. A player does not lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.4. A random effect produces the result that least benefits the owner of the source of the effect.
1.5. Each player plays two games (one match) against each other player.
1.6 If any rules specific to the week's format conflict with the rules listed here, these rules are overridden.
1.7 If any rules disputes occur between players during a weekly format, the format's creator has the final word over the interpretation of his or her format. If the creator is not available before the beginning of the next round, the moderator has the final word.
2. Tournament Rules
2.1. Players submit their decks to the 2CB moderator. 2.2. Decks are subject to some restrictions. 2.3. Points determine tournament standings. 2.4. The player with the most Player of the Month (POTM) points over the course of a month is the Player of the Month.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
4|0 0 0 X 2 2 0 0 0 6 0 6| 16
Detailed notes follow.
My deck should work like this (when it works at all, which is distressingly often):
-Put 4 counters on land (T1-5)
-Cast North Star (T6)
-Put 7 counters on land (T7-13)
-Cast a North Star-enabled Time Elemental (T14)
-Put 6 counters on land (T15-20)
-Cast Gnaw to the Bone, saccing Time Elemental (T21)
-Put 7 counters on land (T22-28)
-Cast Altar of Bone, gain 2 life (T29)
-Put 8 counters on land (T30-37)
-Cast Celestial Convergence (T38)
Win in my upkeep on T45.
I can gain 2 more life at the cost of waiting 8 more turns by flashing back Altar of Bone. I think that's the only other line of play that this deck has.
vs ajfirecracker:
I can always force a draw by thwarting your Rhystic Cave, but then I can't do anything either that turn. So it's a wash except that it means I can't 6-0.
You only need to cast 3 Whispers of the Muse and one Grapeshot on one turn to force the draw, which takes 31 mana (3 whispers + 2 buybacks + 1 grapeshot + 4 North Star activations). You get your mirror on T6 and your 4th North Star on T26. So your 31st counter goes on the land on T57 and you go off on T58, far too late to matter.
0-6.
vs. Casual Johnny:
Your wincon is way slower than mine. Again you only need to gain 4 life to force the draw, but even that means the Naked Singularity needs to stick around for 7 turns, which requires 28*3=84 counters.
0-6
vs error1:
I have no 1-casting-cost creature which auto-sacrifices when put into play. You have no way of disrupting me.
0-6
vs Reyemile:
You can get Chaotic Backlash imprinted on Panoptic Mirror before I can profitably cast Celestial Convergence. Once you do, I have no wincon. As I have no green or white artifact creatures, you also have no wincon.
2-2
vs Shogun17:
Blah blah Rhystic Cave I can't win.
2 Inquisitions suffice to disrupt my wincon, and you can get them long before I've assembled everything.
2-2
vs Antonia:
I think I just plain outrace you, and we don't interact.
0-6
vs. WhammeWhamme
You have no wincon against me.
0-6
vs Parsley
I outrace you.
0-6
vs fnord:
You can use your Rejuvenation Chamber an extra few times to ensure that you always have more than 24 life, negating my wincon.
6-0
vs Tane:
If you ever cast the soldier, I can delay a turn to kill it before it gets to attack. If you never cast the soldier, I win.
0-6
vs. benbuzz790:
You outrace me.
6-0
5 v 2:
I can't interact with him at all, and lose to Farmstead.His combo is a white permanent, so he can't play it. We draw 2-25 v 3: Neither of us have any creatures, therefore neither of us can interact. 2-2
5 v 4: I can't interact with him in any way; his combo kills me. 6-0
5 v 6: We can't interact with one another. 2-2
5 v 7: I can't interact with him. He combos me out on turn 100 something. 6-0
5 v 8: We don't interact. 2-2
5 v 9: He has a Sanctum Plowbeast. My combo kills him long before he wins with Helix. 0-6
5 v 10: I can't interact with him. He helixes me out. 6-0
5 v 11: Plowbeast is the only card I lose to. 0-6
5 v 12: Thanks for the free points! 60-
5 | 2 2 2 6 X 2 6 2 0 6 0 6 | 34
You (and others) can interact with me, since Damping Engine only works as a sac outlet while I have more permanents.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
As long as I have Celestial Convergence out, you can ping me for 2/turn, which is enough that you'll win when the last counter comes off. So I can't cast it, and we draw.
love the joke deck ben. turn 2 13/13 flying infect man-land is beasty.
man, not even whamme's deck can beat it!
I think whamme might have messed up his submission. I don't think he meant for lotus+ channel to let him cast one of his chancellors.--maybe he thought it's ability exiled it?
anyway, my grid
deck no2: 2 x 0 6 2 2 0 2 6 2 0 6 total: 28
I did fairly well considering I was less concerned with specific matchups than with finding the slowest possible win condition.:cool: My alternate name for this deck was OVER 9000!
My deck wins (0) against decks with no win condition vs me (and TANE's deck, which amounts to the same thing)
draws (2) against decks that could use my win con against me or require aborting my wincon to stop, and loses (6) to non interactive decks with quicker win conditions.
@carolingian if you can force a draw, then you do so, this changes some of your posted results. Edit: nevermind, since you can win those matches you win instead of drawing. brain fart made me see 0-6 as a loss instead of a win. d'oh.
I think my matchups go like this:
Faster opponent who can actually win: I lose, gaining 6 points.
Slower/can't actually win, but stops Rhystic Cave: We draw 2-2
Slower/can't actually win, can't stop Cave: I win, gaining 0 points
With some exceptions, like Warp Artifact -> draw (since I'd never play out any of my artifacts)
My main issue is sorting out which falls into which category. I'm honestly not certain which decks are faster than mine (except in very obvious cases) and which ones can/can't win (in some cases).
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
rechecking our match: battery comes out too slow for you to slave it out, play or draw, so I never cast it. 2-2. will change my results.
With everything I had going on, I forgot to enter my own format.
..and it would have done quite awesome. (46 points)
I'll save it for when/if we ever do it again.
No longer staff here.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
How about a stepping-stone card blind format? You submits a 1CB deck, then add a card to make a 2cb deck, then add a card to make a 3cb deck? So, for example:
Invisble Stalker/Path to Exile/Negate vs. Leatherback Baloth/Rolling Earthquake/Path to Exile
for 1cb, Stalker loses to Baloth 0-6
For 2cb, Stalker gets Clasm'd, Baloth gets Pathed. 2-2
For 3cb, Baloth gets Exiled, but the second player's Path is a blank and his Pyroclasm gets negated. 6-0.
"If a card requires information about any opponents' zones, that information is assumed such that the card does the least that it can. This only applies during deck construction."
It doesn't sound right, but it makes Nyxathid a 0/0 at the same time as eliminating the cards like Chaotic Backlash that can only abuse the test deck. I'm sure there's a better wording.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
It might help to require that each entry beats both the test deck and an empty deck.
Or each deck must beat any deck generated by taking the test deck and replacing any number of cards (including 0) with either any basic land or nothing.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
A gauntlet of test decks makes life interesting. Particularly if some of the test decks are capable of winning (not necessarily good at it, but capable)