So, if you don't know Marvel is about to have their own Flashpoint-style event called Secret Wars. The implication is that this will result in a soft reboot and will combine elements from both the main 616 and the Ultimate Universe (namely, Miles Morales). So what do you guys think? What do you think should stay, and what should go?
Merge from Ultimate Universe
- Sam Jackson Nick Fury (not just Nick Fury Jr)
- Miles Morales as Ultimate Spider-man (Maybe with Peter Parker as a Mentor)
Stay
- Superior Spider-man as recent history
- Superior Iron Man,'Good' Sabretooth,
- Wolverine is Dead
- Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel
- Gwen Stacy is Dead
- Cyclops as a revolutionary
Go
- Cindy Moon as Silk, half the Spider-People out there
- One More Day/Brand New Day Deal with Mephisto (of which there was zero point now)
- Past X-Men stuck in the present (it was good while it lasted, but there is little point to it)
I don't have a lot of positive opinions of comic book writing in general, so I'm all for a reboot to take things in a new direction. But that also makes me not great to talk about this topic. But, I felt like commenting on two things:
Because of the aforementioned opinion, I'm not really emotionally attached to any characters in comic books (which is actually on purpose for my own sanity.) For Wolverine, I feel like if they are rebooting via a plot, Wolverine coming back will probably be undone during it. His death was nothing but a publicity stunt to get more readers. "The big wigs said, we need to shock people in such a way that they couldn't have seen it coming. Who should we kill? How about the guy who is practically unkillable because of his regeneration." So first they remove his regeneration and then they kill him. It all seems like a set up to me. I don't think they will/should leave him dead because they killed him for a dumb reason, in my opinion. I don't think he will stay dead because he's one of the most iconic and popular characters. But I've been wrong before. (I'm looking at you, Archie comics.)
As far as Gwen Stacey is concerned, I don't think she should remain dead( or die AGAIN.) I haven't thoroughly researched it, but I'm pretty sure that every single version/incarncation of her has died. To be honest, my opinions on character death aside, that's just dumb. What's the point of writing alternate universes and doing reboots if you are just going to tread the same stories and plot points over and over again? It just seems pointless to me.
Though if there is one thing I'd like to see its Jubilee going back to being less gritty. I love that 90s bubblegum punk.
Yeah, this would be their first continuity-wide reboot. They've been unbroken (with the exception of retcons) since the 1960s.
Yeah, I'm (obviously) a DC man, but it was my understanding that this was one of Marvel's big selling points: "We don't keep screwing up our universe! Everything that happens, stays happened!" So I'm really surprised by this announcement.
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Yeah, this would be their first continuity-wide reboot. They've been unbroken (with the exception of retcons) since the 1960s.
Yeah, I'm (obviously) a DC man, but it was my understanding that this was one of Marvel's big selling points: "We don't keep screwing up our universe! Everything that happens, stays happened!" So I'm really surprised by this announcement.
Me too, honestly. But honestly, I don't know what they're really going to change. I think this is just a gimmick to move Miles Morales to the main Marvel Universe, and to make Black Nick Fury canon.
I also hope they do a better job than DC did after Flashpoint in establish what is continuity and what isn't (it's part of what drove me off from the few DC comics I was reading).
I just can't get on board with any of the decisions Marvel have been making over the last year or so.
I am one of the people who just hated the whole Superior Spider-Man thing.
I am apparently in the minority of people who want Daredevil to be dark, like the Bendis run rather than bright pop-art featuring ridiculous bad guys (Mark Ward run).
As far as the recent shift to Thor, Captain America and Iron Man go, that is just painfully bad.
Worst of all was the shift in focus from character driven storytelling to huge intergalactic event comics featuring so many characters that nobody gets enough screen(page) time (Hickman's run on the Avengers).
The one exception to this is Matt Fraction's Hawkeye series, which has been awesome.
I am glad that Miles Morales is getting the bump into the real Marvel Universe, since Ultimatum and Cataclysm have left the Ultimate U in such a sorry state.
I also hope they do a better job than DC did after Flashpoint in establish what is continuity and what isn't (it's part of what drove me off from the few DC comics I was reading).
They maybe could have done a big FAQ or something on the website (side note: the DC website sucks), and they definitely at least should have done more to work out what was and was not canon internally. But I think it was absolutely the right call not to immediately start continuity-wanking in the books. That would have been diving headfirst into exactly the trouble that these reboots are trying to correct. And the "New 52" was even more targeted at drawing in new readers than most. Just give the readers a recognizable Superman story, and don't bother them with the question of whether that "New Krypton" thing happened or not at some point in the past.
The smart money is that what Marvel is mostly trying to do is bring the comic universe more in line with the movies. I mean, Samuel L. Jackson Nick Fury. 'Nuff said. The question I'm seeing among commentators is whether they're just looking to comfort new readers a la DC, or whether they're almost going in the opposite direction: using the books to support the (far more lucrative) film franchise. In short, it sounds like if the former, they'll continue to support X-Men and Fantastic Four books because they it lets them capitalize indirectly off the Fox films; but if the latter, they'll strongly deemphasize those properties because they want to put the squeeze on the Fox films.
(In related news, the Fantastic Four teaser is out, and it looks... utterly generic.)
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They maybe could have done a big FAQ or something on the website (side note: the DC website sucks), and they definitely at least should have done more to work out what was and was not canon internally. But I think it was absolutely the right call not to immediately start continuity-wanking in the books.
Agreed. It would have been nice to know, for instance, that Action Comics was taking place 5 years in the past of Justice League and behind Superman.
The issue is that the comics did make major continuity mistakes early on - things like every Robin coming and going happened in the 5 years they established from Batman first putting on the cowl. Trying to shoehorn stuff like that just doesn't work.
What I hope happens is that things are just slightly different, but everyone is still already established. Maybe at some point in the future we'll know what happened differently, but I'd much rather things just be changed and we get acquainted to the new status quo, rather than trying to establish the new timeline (it's also a convenient excuse to age up the backstories, which they've already started doing). That's something the can be explored in the future if necessary.
What I really hope they don't do, which they did around Brand New Day, and say they'll explain what happened and then never do. Just change the status quo and leave it, and we can completely forget about a lot of the crappy stuff in Marvel's history.
The smart money is that what Marvel is mostly trying to do is bring the comic universe more in line with the movies. I mean, Samuel L. Jackson Nick Fury. 'Nuff said. The question I'm seeing among commentators is whether they're just looking to comfort new readers a la DC, or whether they're almost going in the opposite direction: using the books to support the (far more lucrative) film franchise.
Probably, but only to a point. The Cinematic Universe is basically 616 + the Ultimate Universe anyway. So combining the two would already bring them more or less in line.
In short, it sounds like if the former, they'll continue to support X-Men and Fantastic Four books because they it lets them capitalize indirectly off the Fox films; but if the latter, they'll strongly deemphasize those properties because they want to put the squeeze on the Fox films.
I've heard that, but comics revenue and fan base is only a fraction of the film's. It's not really worth tanking a strong franchise just to 'get back' at Fox. A lot of these theories spring up, but the reality is that the Fantastic Four have never been popular enough to support more than one book, and even then only with great writing.
And X-Men, well... they're rarely worth reading. Wolverine and the X-Men and All-New X-Men have really been the only two books I've looked at. The issue with the X-Men is there are simply too many of them now. The fact that you can populate 8 X-Men teams doesn't mean you should.
(In related news, the Fantastic Four teaser is out, and it looks... utterly generic.)
It looks like Chronicle mashed up with the Ultimate Fantastic Four, which followed that story. It looks so much better than I was expecting that I'm actually interested, when before I was sure it was trash.
Agreed. It would have been nice to know, for instance, that Action Comics was taking place 5 years in the past of Justice League and behind Superman.
That they actually did establish clearly. Action Comics was "Five Years Ago". Said so right in the narration boxes. (It has since caught up with the "present", but I stopped reading it after Grant Morrison's run.)
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Agreed. It would have been nice to know, for instance, that Action Comics was taking place 5 years in the past of Justice League and behind Superman.
That they actually did establish clearly. Action Comics was "Five Years Ago". Said so right in the narration boxes. (It has since caught up with the "present", but I stopped reading it after Grant Morrison's run.)
Whoops. I realized that later on, but in the first few issues I was really confused, having read both Action and Superman at the time.
Unless i missed something there is a lot of talk about Spider-Gwen being included as a 'stay' due to the whole Spider-verse event, which is already supposed to pre-tie the whole spiderman books closer for the Secret wars event (unless she recently died in some comic i didnt know about...). Same goes for Silk since it seems both of those are getting their own solo comic runs.
And while i dont keep up with this im going to say:
Stay
-Femme Thor
-Space Thor
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Unless i missed something there is a lot of talk about Spider-Gwen being included as a 'stay' due to the whole Spider-verse event, which is already supposed to pre-tie the whole spiderman books closer for the Secret wars event (unless she recently died in some comic i didnt know about...). Same goes for Silk since it seems both of those are getting their own solo comic runs.
I hope Spider-Gwen gets a run in her own Universe, though. She wouldn't work in the 616, I think, and I also think it's really interesting for her Peter Parker to become a villain.
Unless i missed something there is a lot of talk about Spider-Gwen being included as a 'stay' due to the whole Spider-verse event, which is already supposed to pre-tie the whole spiderman books closer for the Secret wars event (unless she recently died in some comic i didnt know about...). Same goes for Silk since it seems both of those are getting their own solo comic runs.
And while i dont keep up with this im going to say:
Stay
-Femme Thor
-Space Thor
How interesting! I'm surprised no one mentioned Spider-Gwen in response to my earlier comment about Gwen Stacey always dying. So there is at least one version that she doesn't die and she is even the super hero? That's pretty cool. Based on my cursury glance just now, I think I would really like her. Perhaps more than I like Peter, but noble strong female characters are an easy sell to me.
Also, I dunno about them keeping both of really any version of a superhero. It gets kind of ridiculous when you have multiple versions of the same super powered individual running around as the norm. They even called themselves out on it once. I don't remember who, but Peter Parker had to train some new super heroine and she said "I'm not going to be called spiderwoman." to which he replied "That's fine, there have been like 6 of those." The exchange was something like that.
Quote from Jay13x »
I hope Spider-Gwen gets a run in her own Universe, though. She wouldn't work in the 616, I think, and I also think it's really interesting for her Peter Parker to become a villain.
As much as I'd like to see her be mainstream instead of side story/alternate universe, I think you are probably right. She'd be better off overall in her own universe.
The peter parker in Spider-Gwen's universe is dead actually, it is to Gwen what Uncle Ben is to the mainstream Spiderman (actually its a bit cooler since Peter becomes the Lizard in that universe).
And while it is true that there's a lot of spider powered heroes already in the main universe i find it kind of hilarious that you guys are saying Spider-Gwen shouldn't be part of the main universe because of over saturation but at the same time you call for Miles Morales because Peter is retiring (Spider Inc. saga incoming people!!! j/k :p)
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Yeah, this would be their first continuity-wide reboot. They've been unbroken (with the exception of retcons) since the 1960s.
Yeah, I'm (obviously) a DC man, but it was my understanding that this was one of Marvel's big selling points: "We don't keep screwing up our universe! Everything that happens, stays happened!" So I'm really surprised by this announcement.
That's why I haven't read marvel since the 80s. The amount of backstory I have to go through is staggering.
For people just picking up marvel now, it must be even more daunting.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
That's why I haven't read marvel since the 80s. The amount of backstory I have to go through is staggering.
For people just picking up marvel now, it must be even more daunting.
It's really not as bad as that. It's only ever really the last few years that matter. They basically reboot everyone every once in a while so outside of some rare events you don't need to read all of Marvel to catch up. If you want to know what is going on in the current Marvel Universe, you'd basically only need to read one of the Marvel Wikis for an hour. I mean, I used to say start with House of M and Civil War, but we're so far past those events that they don't really even matter anymore. Just start at Marvel NOW, which was pretty close to a reboot.
The major difference between Marvel and DC has been that while DC just reboots it's continuity, Marvel just stops caring about things that happened more than 5 years except in the most broad sense, and even then only rarely.
Merge from Ultimate Universe
- Sam Jackson Nick Fury (not just Nick Fury Jr)
- Miles Morales as Ultimate Spider-man (Maybe with Peter Parker as a Mentor)
Stay
- Superior Spider-man as recent history
- Superior Iron Man,'Good' Sabretooth,
- Wolverine is Dead
- Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel
- Gwen Stacy is Dead
- Cyclops as a revolutionary
Go
- Cindy Moon as Silk, half the Spider-People out there
- One More Day/Brand New Day Deal with Mephisto (of which there was zero point now)
- Past X-Men stuck in the present (it was good while it lasted, but there is little point to it)
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Yeah, this would be their first continuity-wide reboot. They've been unbroken (with the exception of retcons) since the 1960s.
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Because of the aforementioned opinion, I'm not really emotionally attached to any characters in comic books (which is actually on purpose for my own sanity.) For Wolverine, I feel like if they are rebooting via a plot, Wolverine coming back will probably be undone during it. His death was nothing but a publicity stunt to get more readers. "The big wigs said, we need to shock people in such a way that they couldn't have seen it coming. Who should we kill? How about the guy who is practically unkillable because of his regeneration." So first they remove his regeneration and then they kill him. It all seems like a set up to me. I don't think they will/should leave him dead because they killed him for a dumb reason, in my opinion. I don't think he will stay dead because he's one of the most iconic and popular characters. But I've been wrong before. (I'm looking at you, Archie comics.)
As far as Gwen Stacey is concerned, I don't think she should remain dead( or die AGAIN.) I haven't thoroughly researched it, but I'm pretty sure that every single version/incarncation of her has died. To be honest, my opinions on character death aside, that's just dumb. What's the point of writing alternate universes and doing reboots if you are just going to tread the same stories and plot points over and over again? It just seems pointless to me.
Though if there is one thing I'd like to see its Jubilee going back to being less gritty. I love that 90s bubblegum punk.
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Me too, honestly. But honestly, I don't know what they're really going to change. I think this is just a gimmick to move Miles Morales to the main Marvel Universe, and to make Black Nick Fury canon.
I also hope they do a better job than DC did after Flashpoint in establish what is continuity and what isn't (it's part of what drove me off from the few DC comics I was reading).
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Do you mean the female character designs or is that a typo?
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I am one of the people who just hated the whole Superior Spider-Man thing.
I am apparently in the minority of people who want Daredevil to be dark, like the Bendis run rather than bright pop-art featuring ridiculous bad guys (Mark Ward run).
As far as the recent shift to Thor, Captain America and Iron Man go, that is just painfully bad.
Worst of all was the shift in focus from character driven storytelling to huge intergalactic event comics featuring so many characters that nobody gets enough screen(page) time (Hickman's run on the Avengers).
The one exception to this is Matt Fraction's Hawkeye series, which has been awesome.
I am glad that Miles Morales is getting the bump into the real Marvel Universe, since Ultimatum and Cataclysm have left the Ultimate U in such a sorry state.
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My one confusion is post reboot, are they not going to have alternative universes or are we just starting over?
I imagine there will still be multiple universes, but they'll be more consolidated then they are now. Right now, there are a ton.
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The smart money is that what Marvel is mostly trying to do is bring the comic universe more in line with the movies. I mean, Samuel L. Jackson Nick Fury. 'Nuff said. The question I'm seeing among commentators is whether they're just looking to comfort new readers a la DC, or whether they're almost going in the opposite direction: using the books to support the (far more lucrative) film franchise. In short, it sounds like if the former, they'll continue to support X-Men and Fantastic Four books because they it lets them capitalize indirectly off the Fox films; but if the latter, they'll strongly deemphasize those properties because they want to put the squeeze on the Fox films.
(In related news, the Fantastic Four teaser is out, and it looks... utterly generic.)
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Agreed. It would have been nice to know, for instance, that Action Comics was taking place 5 years in the past of Justice League and behind Superman.
The issue is that the comics did make major continuity mistakes early on - things like every Robin coming and going happened in the 5 years they established from Batman first putting on the cowl. Trying to shoehorn stuff like that just doesn't work.
What I hope happens is that things are just slightly different, but everyone is still already established. Maybe at some point in the future we'll know what happened differently, but I'd much rather things just be changed and we get acquainted to the new status quo, rather than trying to establish the new timeline (it's also a convenient excuse to age up the backstories, which they've already started doing). That's something the can be explored in the future if necessary.
What I really hope they don't do, which they did around Brand New Day, and say they'll explain what happened and then never do. Just change the status quo and leave it, and we can completely forget about a lot of the crappy stuff in Marvel's history.
Probably, but only to a point. The Cinematic Universe is basically 616 + the Ultimate Universe anyway. So combining the two would already bring them more or less in line.
I've heard that, but comics revenue and fan base is only a fraction of the film's. It's not really worth tanking a strong franchise just to 'get back' at Fox. A lot of these theories spring up, but the reality is that the Fantastic Four have never been popular enough to support more than one book, and even then only with great writing.
And X-Men, well... they're rarely worth reading. Wolverine and the X-Men and All-New X-Men have really been the only two books I've looked at. The issue with the X-Men is there are simply too many of them now. The fact that you can populate 8 X-Men teams doesn't mean you should.
It looks like Chronicle mashed up with the Ultimate Fantastic Four, which followed that story. It looks so much better than I was expecting that I'm actually interested, when before I was sure it was trash.
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Whoops. I realized that later on, but in the first few issues I was really confused, having read both Action and Superman at the time.
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And while i dont keep up with this im going to say:
Stay
-Femme Thor
-Space Thor
I hope Spider-Gwen gets a run in her own Universe, though. She wouldn't work in the 616, I think, and I also think it's really interesting for her Peter Parker to become a villain.
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How interesting! I'm surprised no one mentioned Spider-Gwen in response to my earlier comment about Gwen Stacey always dying. So there is at least one version that she doesn't die and she is even the super hero? That's pretty cool. Based on my cursury glance just now, I think I would really like her. Perhaps more than I like Peter, but noble strong female characters are an easy sell to me.
Also, I dunno about them keeping both of really any version of a superhero. It gets kind of ridiculous when you have multiple versions of the same super powered individual running around as the norm. They even called themselves out on it once. I don't remember who, but Peter Parker had to train some new super heroine and she said "I'm not going to be called spiderwoman." to which he replied "That's fine, there have been like 6 of those." The exchange was something like that.
As much as I'd like to see her be mainstream instead of side story/alternate universe, I think you are probably right. She'd be better off overall in her own universe.
And while it is true that there's a lot of spider powered heroes already in the main universe i find it kind of hilarious that you guys are saying Spider-Gwen shouldn't be part of the main universe because of over saturation but at the same time you call for Miles Morales because Peter is retiring (Spider Inc. saga incoming people!!! j/k :p)
That's why I haven't read marvel since the 80s. The amount of backstory I have to go through is staggering.
For people just picking up marvel now, it must be even more daunting.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
The major difference between Marvel and DC has been that while DC just reboots it's continuity, Marvel just stops caring about things that happened more than 5 years except in the most broad sense, and even then only rarely.
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You only really get in trouble with Bendis, since he writes like half of Marvel's important books, or Slott's ASM on the Marvel side.
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