Was Obi-wan Kenobi a "background character" in Episode 4?
No, but he was pretty clearly a supporting character who existed to say some wise things and then die.
Now, this was fine, because we'd only just been introduced to him that film. If, however, we'd spent three films with him as a central character and grown attached to him, we'd all have been pissed off by the treatment of his character in A New Hope.
Put simply, there's no way in hell you'd get away with treating Han Solo the way you treated Obi Wan in A New Hope. Not only is Han Solo someone the audience is too attached to, but seeing what has happened since Return of the Jedi to Luke, Leia, and Han Solo - characters we know and love - is the whole appeal of a sequel trilogy to Star Wars.
So Han needs to be a bigger character than Obi Wan in A New Hope, and this necessitates a character arc. And if Han's going to have a son who went to the Dark Side, then he should have an arc, especially if he's going to die. You don't just kill Han Solo without giving him a round in the spotlight, he's damn sure earned it.
And yes, they could have had Han just say wise things, but Han... I mean, he could have been the whole General Solo bit and not been a scoundrel, but would we have really wanted that? Don't you want Han Solo to be the space cowboy? I know I do.
Highroller's fault for using a double negative, not yours.
You're not wrong.
I'll give you the hand-holding,
To be fair, if Rey were a guy, and his hand were held by strange man as proportionately larger than him as Finn was to Rey, he'd probably freak out more. That's regardless of skin color.
Was Obi-wan Kenobi a "background character" in Episode 4?
No, but he was pretty clearly a supporting character who existed to say some wise things and then die.
Now, this was fine, because we'd only just been introduced to him that film. If, however, we'd spent three films with him as a central character and grown attached to him, we'd all have been pissed off by the treatment of his character in A New Hope.
Put simply, there's no way in hell you'd get away with treating Han Solo the way you treated Obi Wan in A New Hope. Not only is Han Solo someone the audience is too attached to, but seeing what has happened since Return of the Jedi to Luke, Leia, and Han Solo - characters we know and love - is the whole appeal of a sequel trilogy to Star Wars.
So Han needs to be a bigger character than Obi Wan in A New Hope, and this necessitates a character arc. And if Han's going to have a son who went to the Dark Side, then he should have an arc, especially if he's going to die. You don't just kill Han Solo without giving him a round in the spotlight, he's damn sure earned it.
And yes, they could have had Han just say wise things, but Han... I mean, he could have been the whole General Solo bit and not been a scoundrel, but would we have really wanted that? Don't you want Han Solo to be the space cowboy? I know I do.
Actually, I think people would have been fine with Han Solo getting the Obi-wan treatment since he already has a larger place in the Star Wars universe. Agree to disagree.
That said, I'm not the only one who feels his arc in Episode 7 is stupid. The guys at the Cracked podcast said the same thing. So, maybe you would feel cheated of Han Solo character moments had they taken a different route with him, but my guess is that you'd be in the minority.
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Actually, I think people would have been fine with Han Solo getting the Obi-wan treatment since he already has a larger place in the Star Wars universe. Agree to disagree.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Obi-Wan treatment." Are you talking about Han being made to be less prominent, or Han not getting a character arc? Because Obi-Wan has a character arc in A New Hope.
That said, I'm not the only one who feels his arc in Episode 7 is stupid. The guys at the Cracked podcast said the same thing. So, maybe you would feel cheated of Han Solo character moments had they taken a different route with him, but my guess is that you'd be in the minority.
Whether or not the quality of the Han Solo arc is up to par doesn't have any bearing on whether or not Han Solo needed to have an arc.
And the direction of the Han Solo arc was fine. Han is bitter and cynical over the loss of his son, he is motivated to seek him out after seeing him again with First Order soldiers, he meets with Leia, he pursues his son, he tries his best to redeem him, he dies failing to.
That could have been an extremely moving story. It would have been reminiscent of Obi-Wan at the end of Episode III. But like Obi-Wan at the end of Episode III, it's poorly executed. Also there's a pointless space monster sequence, which is also like Episode III.
Actually, I think people would have been fine with Han Solo getting the Obi-wan treatment since he already has a larger place in the Star Wars universe. Agree to disagree.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Obi-Wan treatment." Are you talking about Han being made to be less prominent, or Han not getting a character arc? Because Obi-Wan has a character arc in A New Hope.
What?!!?
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Elaborate because I think you're waaaay off base with this.
I'm not. Is Obi-Wan the same character at the start of A New Hope as he is at the end of A New Hope? He is not. Indeed, is Obi-Wan the same character from the start of the fight between him and Darth Vader A New Hope as he is at the end of that fight when he decides to sacrifice himself? He is not.
Therefore, he has an arc.
Now, I'm not saying it's a Walter White-level arc (sidenote: there really need to be more Breaking Bad-Star Wars mashups), but it is a character arc.
Elaborate because I think you're waaaay off base with this.
I'm not. Is Obi-Wan the same character at the start of A New Hope as he is at the end of A New Hope? He is not. Indeed, is Obi-Wan the same character from the start of the fight between him and Darth Vader A New Hope as he is at the end of that fight when he decides to sacrifice himself? He is not.
Therefore, he has an arc.
Now, I'm not saying it's a Walter White-level arc (sidenote: there really need to be more Breaking Bad-Star Wars mashups), but it is a character arc.
Elaborate better.
Describe, in a least a little detail, his character before and after his "arc" and tell me what about him changed. Just asking me if he's the same person before and after he dies isn't telling me anything. For the record, I don't think he's a different person at the end of the film than he is at the beginning. If you're referring to him being willing to sacrifice himself for the rebellion (and if that's the case why not just say that instead of being vague?), he's already sacrificed his life to live on the backwoods planet of Tattooine. I'm pretty sure he's been a martyr his whole life.
EDIT: Do some work before you post a response to this, please. Just saying "he is a different person at the end of the film than the beginning" isn't describing his character arc. I don't know what you're trying to communicate to me.
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Describe, in a least a little detail, his character before and after his "arc" and tell me what about him changed. Just asking me if he's the same person before and after he dies isn't telling me anything. For the record, I don't think he's a different person at the end of the film than he is at the beginning. If you're referring to him being willing to sacrifice himself for the rebellion (and if that's the case why not just say that instead of being vague?), he's already sacrificed his life to live on the backwoods planet of Tattooine. I'm pretty sure he's been a martyr his whole life.
What's the title of the film? "A New Hope."
Is Obi-Wan a man of hope when we meet him? We see him living as a hermit in a hovel in what is basically the ass-end of the galaxy. He's crazy Old Ben, the strange wizard who lives in what even the people of Tatooine consider to be in the middle of nowhere.
We later learn that this man was once a great knight and hero of the Clone Wars. That he was once a great Jedi Knight. But something happened. He trained a student named Darth Vader, who lead to the extinction of the Jedi. Since then he's seen the Old Republic die off and the Empire usher in a dark time.
So no, he's not a man of hope. He's a man who has nothing to look forward to but the past.
Then he meets Luke, the son of Anakin Skywalker, and old friend and fellow Jedi. He also meets R2-D2, who comes bearing with him a message from Princess Leia who begs for his assistance. He is needed once again. He asks Luke to accompany him, but Luke refuses until his aunt and uncle are brutally murdered, in which case he agrees to join.
So he trains Luke. He grows to bond with him on the road to Alderaan and thinks he might make a promising knight. Then the Millennium Falcon gets to Alderaan, and Alderaan is not there anymore. The Death Star blew it up. The Death Star is also pulling them in.
Obi-Wan splits off from the rest of the party to assist them in getting escaping. Then he meets Vader, his pupil who betrayed the Jedi and lead to their extinction. The two square off. He and Vader duel for a time, neither gaining the greater ground.
Then Obi-Wan sees Luke. And something changes. Obi-Wan voluntarily sacrifices himself that he may help and advise Luke. Because the fight now is no longer about Vader and Obi-Wan. It's not about who wins this lightsaber duel. It's about Luke, his new pupil. His "new hope." He has gone from a man with no hope to a man who willingly sacrifices himself for the last hope of the Jedi.
Describe, in a least a little detail, his character before and after his "arc" and tell me what about him changed. Just asking me if he's the same person before and after he dies isn't telling me anything. For the record, I don't think he's a different person at the end of the film than he is at the beginning. If you're referring to him being willing to sacrifice himself for the rebellion (and if that's the case why not just say that instead of being vague?), he's already sacrificed his life to live on the backwoods planet of Tattooine. I'm pretty sure he's been a martyr his whole life.
What's the title of the film? "A New Hope."
Is Obi-Wan a man of hope when we meet him? We see him living as a hermit in a hovel in what is basically the ass-end of the galaxy. He's crazy Old Ben, the strange wizard who lives in what even the people of Tatooine consider to be in the middle of nowhere.
We later learn that this man was once a great knight and hero of the Clone Wars. That he was once a great Jedi Knight. But something happened. He trained a student named Darth Vader, who lead to the extinction of the Jedi. Since then he's seen the Old Republic die off and the Empire usher in a dark time.
So no, he's not a man of hope. He's a man who has nothing to look forward to but the past.
Literally none of this is expressed in the film. We don't know that he was a "great Jedi knight". We know that he knew Luke's father and that he fought in a war, but we don't know anything about his character prior to what we see in the film. You are inventing things that aren't there.
Obi-wan is Luke's mentor from the first moment he steps into the frame until even after his death. The first thing Obi-wan does with Luke is give him a lightsaber! Do you think he would have done that if he wasn't planning on teaching him the ways of the Force?! That's it. He's a supporting character. He is little more than a plot device.
We are told by Leia both directly and indirectly that he was a warrior of significance during the Clone Wars.
We know that he knew Luke's father and that he fought in a war, but we don't know anything about his character prior to what we see in the film. You are inventing things that aren't there.
I am not inventing anything.
Obi-wan is Luke's mentor from the first moment he steps into the frame until even after his death.
He's not Luke's mentor when Luke is unconscious, no.
Do you think he would have done that if he wasn't planning on teaching him the ways of the Force?!
Do you think he foresaw sacrificing himself in a duel with Darth Vader? Having a vague plan to teach Luke to become a Jedi at some point doesn't equate to Obi-Wan not changing.
Was Obi-wan Kenobi a "background character" in Episode 4?
No, but he was pretty clearly a supporting character who existed to say some wise things and then die.
Now, this was fine, because we'd only just been introduced to him that film. If, however, we'd spent three films with him as a central character and grown attached to him, we'd all have been pissed off by the treatment of his character in A New Hope.
to trying to tell me that Obi-wan has a character arc that doesn't exist.
This conversation is dumb. I feel like I'm being trolled.
We are agreeing to disagree that Han Solo was (mis)handled by Episode 7. Period.
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So I figured i'd kickstart the movie discussion post release because i've been thinking about the movie for a full day now. Spoiler alerts obviously.
Honestly I have nothing but praise for this movie. I wasn't expecting much since it was a spin-off type movie but this blew me away. Not only was it entertaining (as all SW films generally go) but it was actually well directed for the most part in my eyes. Obviously there are nitpicks here and there but generally speaking, everything was right where it should've been.
Despite the team not being nearly roguish as the title might imply, the rag tag team of misfits and weirdos was everything the movie Suicide Squad wanted to be but couldn't pull off smoothly. The nitpick that I have and apparently a lot of people shared was that the first act was a little off where they tried to introduce half of the R1 team via jumping from planet to planet but felt choppy. Either way, not a huge problem in a movie of this nature. Aside from that, the things I enjoyed
The cheese was kept to a minimal which I liked and the grittiness of R1 was a nice addition to the franchise that generally doesn't welcome it with open arms. People died, villains and heroes alike, I was absolutely floored that the whole R1 team died in a Saving Private Ryan esque fashion. I knew for sure someone would die but I didn't know GRRM was feeding the screenwriters hypnotic suggestions. A wonderful touch to show how weak the rebels were in comparison and gave me flashbacks to Saving Private Ryan and Halo: Reach.
The stakes were high and there was a lot of uncertainty. The force was a huge plot armor in previous titles that kept the good guys safe whereas in this movie, the only semblance of the force making an appearance was through Chirrut (Donnie Yen) who was force sensitive but did not have access to the full range of abilities that Jedi's have.
It actually felt like Star Wars. In the third act especially, it just felt right with two warring factions armed with good ol spaceships and blasters and both sides could actually aim them correctly.
Easter egg galore. So many that I found myself in awe and laughing at times. Callbacks to A New Hope with Jyn bumping into two familiar faces in the Jedha streets who will eventually bump into Luke in Mos Eisley. The other was the rebel pilots who did their comm check ins with red 5 conveniently dying in the battle
Franchise casting was on point. Genevieve O'Reilly as Mon Mothma finally got her chance to shine in this movie and familiar faces like Jimmy Smits as Bail Organa. James Earl Jones as Vader's voice. Swoons
Some people didn't like the CGI Tarkins and Leia but I thought they were incredibly realistic (Tarkins slightly less) but it was nuts and I did a double take when they first appeared as I wondered if they actually managed to find someone that looks strikingly as young Carrie Fisher and Peter Cushing.
The Vader fanservice was real. I thought his cameo in the middle of movie was all we're going to get but he came back in the end and really delivered the scene that showcased why the galaxy should be afraid of him. A beautiful, haunting, and brutal slaughterfest but was much needed. Plus his dad joke when choking Krennic made me laugh especially considering he actually is a father during that time.
Speaking of humor, I liked that Gareth Edwards didn't abuse it or completely leave it out but found a good middleground. K2SO was a standout and did what Jar Jar could never do: be endearing. I really enjoyed the delivery of the jokes especially in the case of Donnie Yen as he exclaims that he is already blind when they go to blindfold him.
Despite being vastly inferior to the Starkiller base in TFA, the Death Star had a much bigger impact and actually struck fear. The test fire on Jedha and the Scarif shot both showed the raw power of the weapon from the point of view of those who it was fired on and drove the narrative and the characters as the R1 team definitely felt the urgency of stopping the weapon after witnessing and experiencing firsthand its destructive capabilities
Whew, that was a lot of disjointed thoughts but that about covers it all. Thinking on it, I felt like I really enjoyed the tone and style of this movie and Gareth Edwards definitely deserves accolades for this despite being a standalone film. In all honesty, when compared to TFA, I would take R1 over that in a heartbeat.
So I figured i'd kickstart the movie discussion post release because i've been thinking about the movie for a full day now. Spoiler alerts obviously.
Honestly I have nothing but praise for this movie. I wasn't expecting much since it was a spin-off type movie but this blew me away. Not only was it entertaining (as all SW films generally go) but it was actually well directed for the most part in my eyes. Obviously there are nitpicks here and there but generally speaking, everything was right where it should've been.
Despite the team not being nearly roguish as the title might imply, the rag tag team of misfits and weirdos was everything the movie Suicide Squad wanted to be but couldn't pull off smoothly. The nitpick that I have and apparently a lot of people shared was that the first act was a little off where they tried to introduce half of the R1 team via jumping from planet to planet but felt choppy. Either way, not a huge problem in a movie of this nature. Aside from that, the things I enjoyed
The cheese was kept to a minimal which I liked and the grittiness of R1 was a nice addition to the franchise that generally doesn't welcome it with open arms. People died, villains and heroes alike, I was absolutely floored that the whole R1 team died in a Saving Private Ryan esque fashion. I knew for sure someone would die but I didn't know GRRM was feeding the screenwriters hypnotic suggestions. A wonderful touch to show how weak the rebels were in comparison and gave me flashbacks to Saving Private Ryan and Halo: Reach.
The stakes were high and there was a lot of uncertainty. The force was a huge plot armor in previous titles that kept the good guys safe whereas in this movie, the only semblance of the force making an appearance was through Chirrut (Donnie Yen) who was force sensitive but did not have access to the full range of abilities that Jedi's have.
It actually felt like Star Wars. In the third act especially, it just felt right with two warring factions armed with good ol spaceships and blasters and both sides could actually aim them correctly.
Easter egg galore. So many that I found myself in awe and laughing at times. Callbacks to A New Hope with Jyn bumping into two familiar faces in the Jedha streets who will eventually bump into Luke in Mos Eisley. The other was the rebel pilots who did their comm check ins with red 5 conveniently dying in the battle
Franchise casting was on point. Genevieve O'Reilly as Mon Mothma finally got her chance to shine in this movie and familiar faces like Jimmy Smits as Bail Organa. James Earl Jones as Vader's voice. Swoons
Some people didn't like the CGI Tarkins and Leia but I thought they were incredibly realistic (Tarkins slightly less) but it was nuts and I did a double take when they first appeared as I wondered if they actually managed to find someone that looks strikingly as young Carrie Fisher and Peter Cushing.
The Vader fanservice was real. I thought his cameo in the middle of movie was all we're going to get but he came back in the end and really delivered the scene that showcased why the galaxy should be afraid of him. A beautiful, haunting, and brutal slaughterfest but was much needed. Plus his dad joke when choking Krennic made me laugh especially considering he actually is a father during that time.
Speaking of humor, I liked that Gareth Edwards didn't abuse it or completely leave it out but found a good middleground. K2SO was a standout and did what Jar Jar could never do: be endearing. I really enjoyed the delivery of the jokes especially in the case of Donnie Yen as he exclaims that he is already blind when they go to blindfold him.
Despite being vastly inferior to the Starkiller base in TFA, the Death Star had a much bigger impact and actually struck fear. The test fire on Jedha and the Scarif shot both showed the raw power of the weapon from the point of view of those who it was fired on and drove the narrative and the characters as the R1 team definitely felt the urgency of stopping the weapon after witnessing and experiencing firsthand its destructive capabilities
Whew, that was a lot of disjointed thoughts but that about covers it all. Thinking on it, I felt like I really enjoyed the tone and style of this movie and Gareth Edwards definitely deserves accolades for this despite being a standalone film. In all honesty, when compared to TFA, I would take R1 over that in a heartbeat.
I agree with most of this. I really liked the movie. That said:
Krennic doesn't really feel like the 'bad guy' in this film. He seems to only get yelled at, and I'm not entirely sure what he's doing on Scarif at the end, other than having a confrontation with the rebels.
Tarkin and Leia were too uncanny valley for me. They should have kept those faces off-screen as much as possible, and we didn't need nearly as much Tarkin as we got (for instance, have him facing the window and just have the face as a reflection). Similarly, the archival footage they used for some pilots was a bit jarring, as the video/audio quality wasn't as good.
Would rather have spent more time with Krennic being a legitimate threat than constantly getting berated by his superiors.
EVERYONE dying kind of sucked. I mean, it was kind-of expected, given any survivors would have been getting medals, too, but still.
I liked the Rebels cameos, at least we know that Hera (or maybe her father?) survive, as does Chopper. I completely missed Chopper's Cameo, though.
The two angry cantina patrons whose names escape at the moment were a bit much. Like, they would have had to just barely survive Jedha, then go to Tatooine and happen to meet up with the Death Star plans again?
I don't understand why the Empire destroyed Scarif. Aren't there a lot of plans there that they need? Over a few rebels, whose fleet they're already taking care of?
Tantive IV in the Rebel Flagship was a cool scene that didn't make much sense. There were other Corellian Corvettes in the fleet fighting, they just had it hiding? Once the high of that amazing third act wore off, this one fridge logic'd me.
Jimmy Smits as Bail Organa was great.
Overall I'd say it was a fantastic movie, hampered by some dodgy effects and a some narrative bending to get it to fit into A New Hope nicely.
Krennic doesn't really feel like the 'bad guy' in this film. He seems to only get yelled at, and I'm not entirely sure what he's doing on Scarif at the end, other than having a confrontation with the rebels.
Krennic was just a relatively small cog in the machine. That's what I enjoyed is that both sides felt real despite it being very much sci-fi, Krennic felt like that guy in upper management who isn't quite the CEO so he was still susceptible to being reprimanded by his superiors. Despite that, I have a modicum of respect for his character as he actually makes an effort to solve problems himself instead of delegating to someone below him. He goes to Galen's research facility personally to find the traitor and then upon learning Galen himself was the traitor made the trip to Scarif where archive of transmissions was held to review Galen's comms. It just so happens that the archives contains blueprints and other sensitive materials which the R1 team was after.
Tarkin and Leia were too uncanny valley for me. They should have kept those faces off-screen as much as possible, and we didn't need nearly as much Tarkin as we got (for instance, have him facing the window and just have the face as a reflection). Similarly, the archival footage they used for some pilots was a bit jarring, as the video/audio quality wasn't as good.
I get that perspective, but I personally liked them fully embracing the characters instead of doing more cameoesque appearances. I suppose it's a stylistic preference.
EVERYONE dying kind of sucked. I mean, it was kind-of expected, given any survivors would have been getting medals, too, but still.
Another stylistic choice I suppose. I really do enjoy that grittiness in my narratives.
I don't understand why the Empire destroyed Scarif. Aren't there a lot of plans there that they need? Over a few rebels, whose fleet they're already taking care of?
If I recall correctly, Tarkins ordered it because it killed two birds with one stone. He could wipe out the compromised base and kill Krennic to take over the Death Star because he learned Krennic was on the Scarif base at that time.
Tantive IV in the Rebel Flagship was a cool scene that didn't make much sense. There were other Corellian Corvettes in the fleet fighting, they just had it hiding? Once the high of that amazing third act wore off, this one fridge logic'd me.
Yeah I remember reading some uproar over how they handled that particular transition to New Hope. The best that I saw in attempting to explain it was that the ship was carrying diplomats (like Leia) and so that ship was kept as a dead man's switch of sorts where if the Empire destroyed that ship, it would cause an uproar and turn people against the Empire even more.
Krennic doesn't really feel like the 'bad guy' in this film. He seems to only get yelled at, and I'm not entirely sure what he's doing on Scarif at the end, other than having a confrontation with the rebels.
Krennic was just a relatively small cog in the machine. That's what I enjoyed is that both sides felt real despite it being very much sci-fi, Krennic felt like that guy in upper management who isn't quite the CEO so he was still susceptible to being reprimanded by his superiors. Despite that, I have a modicum of respect for his character as he actually makes an effort to solve problems himself instead of delegating to someone below him. He goes to Galen's research facility personally to find the traitor and then upon learning Galen himself was the traitor made the trip to Scarif where archive of transmissions was held to review Galen's comms. It just so happens that the archives contains blueprints and other sensitive materials which the R1 team was after.
Tarkin and Leia were too uncanny valley for me. They should have kept those faces off-screen as much as possible, and we didn't need nearly as much Tarkin as we got (for instance, have him facing the window and just have the face as a reflection). Similarly, the archival footage they used for some pilots was a bit jarring, as the video/audio quality wasn't as good.
I get that perspective, but I personally liked them fully embracing the characters instead of doing more cameoesque appearances. I suppose it's a stylistic preference.
EVERYONE dying kind of sucked. I mean, it was kind-of expected, given any survivors would have been getting medals, too, but still.
Another stylistic choice I suppose. I really do enjoy that grittiness in my narratives.
I don't understand why the Empire destroyed Scarif. Aren't there a lot of plans there that they need? Over a few rebels, whose fleet they're already taking care of?
If I recall correctly, Tarkins ordered it because it killed two birds with one stone. He could wipe out the compromised base and kill Krennic to take over the Death Star because he learned Krennic was on the Scarif base at that time.
Tantive IV in the Rebel Flagship was a cool scene that didn't make much sense. There were other Corellian Corvettes in the fleet fighting, they just had it hiding? Once the high of that amazing third act wore off, this one fridge logic'd me.
Yeah I remember reading some uproar over how they handled that particular transition to New Hope. The best that I saw in attempting to explain it was that the ship was carrying diplomats (like Leia) and so that ship was kept as a dead man's switch of sorts where if the Empire destroyed that ship, it would cause an uproar and turn people against the Empire even more.
The Tantive bugged the hell out of me. You can achive the same narative end (the handoff of the plans) by having someone jump into an escape ship of whatever kind and jump to intercept Leia.
because otherwise them being above tatooine makes no sense. SW FTL doesn't require dropping out of hyperspace, so why are they above tatooine at all? Whereas if someone intercepted Leia while she was on her way to contact Kenobi, that kinda works. Plus claiming it as a diplmoatic mission when they damn well know you've just come from a massive space battle is...dumb at best.
Similarly bumping into 'death sentence in 12 systems' was kinda dumb, if they were meant to be the same two guys, because they have to leave Jedah more-or-less immediately and go to tatooine as well for...more or less no apparent reason...to be killed by obi like 4 days later.
Krennic doesn't really feel like the 'bad guy' in this film. He seems to only get yelled at, and I'm not entirely sure what he's doing on Scarif at the end, other than having a confrontation with the rebels.
Krennic was just a relatively small cog in the machine. That's what I enjoyed is that both sides felt real despite it being very much sci-fi, Krennic felt like that guy in upper management who isn't quite the CEO so he was still susceptible to being reprimanded by his superiors. Despite that, I have a modicum of respect for his character as he actually makes an effort to solve problems himself instead of delegating to someone below him. He goes to Galen's research facility personally to find the traitor and then upon learning Galen himself was the traitor made the trip to Scarif where archive of transmissions was held to review Galen's comms. It just so happens that the archives contains blueprints and other sensitive materials which the R1 team was after.
Tarkin and Leia were too uncanny valley for me. They should have kept those faces off-screen as much as possible, and we didn't need nearly as much Tarkin as we got (for instance, have him facing the window and just have the face as a reflection). Similarly, the archival footage they used for some pilots was a bit jarring, as the video/audio quality wasn't as good.
I get that perspective, but I personally liked them fully embracing the characters instead of doing more cameoesque appearances. I suppose it's a stylistic preference.
EVERYONE dying kind of sucked. I mean, it was kind-of expected, given any survivors would have been getting medals, too, but still.
Another stylistic choice I suppose. I really do enjoy that grittiness in my narratives.
I don't understand why the Empire destroyed Scarif. Aren't there a lot of plans there that they need? Over a few rebels, whose fleet they're already taking care of?
If I recall correctly, Tarkins ordered it because it killed two birds with one stone. He could wipe out the compromised base and kill Krennic to take over the Death Star because he learned Krennic was on the Scarif base at that time.
Tantive IV in the Rebel Flagship was a cool scene that didn't make much sense. There were other Corellian Corvettes in the fleet fighting, they just had it hiding? Once the high of that amazing third act wore off, this one fridge logic'd me.
Yeah I remember reading some uproar over how they handled that particular transition to New Hope. The best that I saw in attempting to explain it was that the ship was carrying diplomats (like Leia) and so that ship was kept as a dead man's switch of sorts where if the Empire destroyed that ship, it would cause an uproar and turn people against the Empire even more.
The Tantive bugged the hell out of me. You can achive the same narative end (the handoff of the plans) by having someone jump into an escape ship of whatever kind and jump to intercept Leia.
because otherwise them being above tatooine makes no sense. SW FTL doesn't require dropping out of hyperspace, so why are they above tatooine at all? Whereas if someone intercepted Leia while she was on her way to contact Kenobi, that kinda works. Plus claiming it as a diplmoatic mission when they damn well know you've just come from a massive space battle is...dumb at best.
Similarly bumping into 'death sentence in 12 systems' was kinda dumb, if they were meant to be the same two guys, because they have to leave Jedah more-or-less immediately and go to tatooine as well for...more or less no apparent reason...to be killed by obi like 4 days later.
They're above Tatooine because part 2 of the plan is to get Ben Kenobi's help.
Good movie. Some disjointed plot points, maybe could use a little more character development for the supporting cast, but it ends very strong. The first Star Wars movie that's really been a war movie. Recalls the classic WW2 commando films especially (and very deliberately, of course).
Vader should not have appeared in the middle of the film. His appearance at the end would have had more impact if it's the first we see of him. That said, Vader's discussion with Krennic confirming that he's kind of "meh" on the Death Star is some nice attention to character detail. That's his attitude in A New Hope, but a lot of writers would have just written him as being pro-Death-Star because it's easier. The Death Star is Tarkin's baby.
The CGI Tarkin and Leia weren't perfect, but you kind of had to have them. Tarkin especially. Like I said, the Death Star is his baby.
Did anyone else think that the Vader costume didn't fit the actor right? The mask looked loose around the neck to me.
R2-D2 and C-3PO don't make sense showing up where they do. They're at the rebel base when the fleet has already left? How are they on the Tantive IV in ANH?
But overall, in sharp contrast to the prequel trilogy, this movie actually feels like it makes sense leading into ANH. I didn't catch a line or bit of character knowledge that's out of place. The one thing I can think if is how many people saw the Death Star in action. Almost all of them die, but it's now canonical that Leia has seen it prior to the events of ANH, so maybe the destruction of Alderaan scene is changed in significance somewhat.
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WHY THE HELL DO YOU DO THAT??? You KNOW Vader is likely right on your tail; go somewhere indirect to your actual goal.
Look, you can kinda sorta work your way around it, but it works *much better* if the tantive isn't at Skariff. Send a ship, have it dock with the tantive and have the ESD whatever show up immediately after. At least preserves a vague notion that 'we're on a diplomatic mission' might be a semi-plausible lie.
Also, Blinking spirit: Agree.
Vader in the middle of the film was a gross error, particular given the low quality of his dialogue. And R2 and 3P0 appearing there makes no sense.
sorry all - didn't notice a rogue full stop despoilering that stuff for a while there.
The CGI Tarkin and Leia weren't perfect, but you kind of had to have them. Tarkin especially. Like I said, the Death Star is his baby.
That's true, but there was another way to do it.
Namely, what they did with Mon Mothma - just take two actors who look enough like Peter Cushing and young Carrie Fisher, and film them normally, maybe with heavy make up or prosthetics for Tarkin, but no CGI. Done!
Namely, what they did with Mon Mothma - just take two actors who look enough like Peter Cushing and young Carrie Fisher, and film them normally, maybe with heavy make up or prosthetics for Tarkin, but no CGI. Done!
They did that at the end of Revenge of the Sith, you might remember. That didn't look great either. With Mon Mothma, they happened to luck out and find a dead ringer for Caroline Blakiston.
Of course, we've got young Han Solo and Lando Calrissian coming up.
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Now, this was fine, because we'd only just been introduced to him that film. If, however, we'd spent three films with him as a central character and grown attached to him, we'd all have been pissed off by the treatment of his character in A New Hope.
Put simply, there's no way in hell you'd get away with treating Han Solo the way you treated Obi Wan in A New Hope. Not only is Han Solo someone the audience is too attached to, but seeing what has happened since Return of the Jedi to Luke, Leia, and Han Solo - characters we know and love - is the whole appeal of a sequel trilogy to Star Wars.
So Han needs to be a bigger character than Obi Wan in A New Hope, and this necessitates a character arc. And if Han's going to have a son who went to the Dark Side, then he should have an arc, especially if he's going to die. You don't just kill Han Solo without giving him a round in the spotlight, he's damn sure earned it.
And yes, they could have had Han just say wise things, but Han... I mean, he could have been the whole General Solo bit and not been a scoundrel, but would we have really wanted that? Don't you want Han Solo to be the space cowboy? I know I do.
You're not wrong.
To be fair, if Rey were a guy, and his hand were held by strange man as proportionately larger than him as Finn was to Rey, he'd probably freak out more. That's regardless of skin color.
Actually, I think people would have been fine with Han Solo getting the Obi-wan treatment since he already has a larger place in the Star Wars universe. Agree to disagree.
That said, I'm not the only one who feels his arc in Episode 7 is stupid. The guys at the Cracked podcast said the same thing. So, maybe you would feel cheated of Han Solo character moments had they taken a different route with him, but my guess is that you'd be in the minority.
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Whether or not the quality of the Han Solo arc is up to par doesn't have any bearing on whether or not Han Solo needed to have an arc.
And the direction of the Han Solo arc was fine. Han is bitter and cynical over the loss of his son, he is motivated to seek him out after seeing him again with First Order soldiers, he meets with Leia, he pursues his son, he tries his best to redeem him, he dies failing to.
That could have been an extremely moving story. It would have been reminiscent of Obi-Wan at the end of Episode III. But like Obi-Wan at the end of Episode III, it's poorly executed. Also there's a pointless space monster sequence, which is also like Episode III.
What?!!?
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Elaborate because I think you're waaaay off base with this.
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Therefore, he has an arc.
Now, I'm not saying it's a Walter White-level arc (sidenote: there really need to be more Breaking Bad-Star Wars mashups), but it is a character arc.
Elaborate better.
Describe, in a least a little detail, his character before and after his "arc" and tell me what about him changed. Just asking me if he's the same person before and after he dies isn't telling me anything. For the record, I don't think he's a different person at the end of the film than he is at the beginning. If you're referring to him being willing to sacrifice himself for the rebellion (and if that's the case why not just say that instead of being vague?), he's already sacrificed his life to live on the backwoods planet of Tattooine. I'm pretty sure he's been a martyr his whole life.
EDIT: Do some work before you post a response to this, please. Just saying "he is a different person at the end of the film than the beginning" isn't describing his character arc. I don't know what you're trying to communicate to me.
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Is Obi-Wan a man of hope when we meet him? We see him living as a hermit in a hovel in what is basically the ass-end of the galaxy. He's crazy Old Ben, the strange wizard who lives in what even the people of Tatooine consider to be in the middle of nowhere.
We later learn that this man was once a great knight and hero of the Clone Wars. That he was once a great Jedi Knight. But something happened. He trained a student named Darth Vader, who lead to the extinction of the Jedi. Since then he's seen the Old Republic die off and the Empire usher in a dark time.
So no, he's not a man of hope. He's a man who has nothing to look forward to but the past.
Then he meets Luke, the son of Anakin Skywalker, and old friend and fellow Jedi. He also meets R2-D2, who comes bearing with him a message from Princess Leia who begs for his assistance. He is needed once again. He asks Luke to accompany him, but Luke refuses until his aunt and uncle are brutally murdered, in which case he agrees to join.
So he trains Luke. He grows to bond with him on the road to Alderaan and thinks he might make a promising knight. Then the Millennium Falcon gets to Alderaan, and Alderaan is not there anymore. The Death Star blew it up. The Death Star is also pulling them in.
Obi-Wan splits off from the rest of the party to assist them in getting escaping. Then he meets Vader, his pupil who betrayed the Jedi and lead to their extinction. The two square off. He and Vader duel for a time, neither gaining the greater ground.
Then Obi-Wan sees Luke. And something changes. Obi-Wan voluntarily sacrifices himself that he may help and advise Luke. Because the fight now is no longer about Vader and Obi-Wan. It's not about who wins this lightsaber duel. It's about Luke, his new pupil. His "new hope." He has gone from a man with no hope to a man who willingly sacrifices himself for the last hope of the Jedi.
Arc.
Literally none of this is expressed in the film. We don't know that he was a "great Jedi knight". We know that he knew Luke's father and that he fought in a war, but we don't know anything about his character prior to what we see in the film. You are inventing things that aren't there.
Obi-wan is Luke's mentor from the first moment he steps into the frame until even after his death. The first thing Obi-wan does with Luke is give him a lightsaber! Do you think he would have done that if he wasn't planning on teaching him the ways of the Force?! That's it. He's a supporting character. He is little more than a plot device.
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We are told by Leia both directly and indirectly that he was a warrior of significance during the Clone Wars.
I am not inventing anything.
He's not Luke's mentor when Luke is unconscious, no.
Do you think he foresaw sacrificing himself in a duel with Darth Vader? Having a vague plan to teach Luke to become a Jedi at some point doesn't equate to Obi-Wan not changing.
Which does not mean he does not have an arc.
to trying to tell me that Obi-wan has a character arc that doesn't exist.
This conversation is dumb. I feel like I'm being trolled.
We are agreeing to disagree that Han Solo was (mis)handled by Episode 7. Period.
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Despite the team not being nearly roguish as the title might imply, the rag tag team of misfits and weirdos was everything the movie Suicide Squad wanted to be but couldn't pull off smoothly. The nitpick that I have and apparently a lot of people shared was that the first act was a little off where they tried to introduce half of the R1 team via jumping from planet to planet but felt choppy. Either way, not a huge problem in a movie of this nature. Aside from that, the things I enjoyed
Whew, that was a lot of disjointed thoughts but that about covers it all. Thinking on it, I felt like I really enjoyed the tone and style of this movie and Gareth Edwards definitely deserves accolades for this despite being a standalone film. In all honesty, when compared to TFA, I would take R1 over that in a heartbeat.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Krennic was just a relatively small cog in the machine. That's what I enjoyed is that both sides felt real despite it being very much sci-fi, Krennic felt like that guy in upper management who isn't quite the CEO so he was still susceptible to being reprimanded by his superiors. Despite that, I have a modicum of respect for his character as he actually makes an effort to solve problems himself instead of delegating to someone below him. He goes to Galen's research facility personally to find the traitor and then upon learning Galen himself was the traitor made the trip to Scarif where archive of transmissions was held to review Galen's comms. It just so happens that the archives contains blueprints and other sensitive materials which the R1 team was after.
I get that perspective, but I personally liked them fully embracing the characters instead of doing more cameoesque appearances. I suppose it's a stylistic preference.
Another stylistic choice I suppose. I really do enjoy that grittiness in my narratives.
If I recall correctly, Tarkins ordered it because it killed two birds with one stone. He could wipe out the compromised base and kill Krennic to take over the Death Star because he learned Krennic was on the Scarif base at that time.
Yeah I remember reading some uproar over how they handled that particular transition to New Hope. The best that I saw in attempting to explain it was that the ship was carrying diplomats (like Leia) and so that ship was kept as a dead man's switch of sorts where if the Empire destroyed that ship, it would cause an uproar and turn people against the Empire even more.
The Tantive bugged the hell out of me. You can achive the same narative end (the handoff of the plans) by having someone jump into an escape ship of whatever kind and jump to intercept Leia.
because otherwise them being above tatooine makes no sense. SW FTL doesn't require dropping out of hyperspace, so why are they above tatooine at all? Whereas if someone intercepted Leia while she was on her way to contact Kenobi, that kinda works. Plus claiming it as a diplmoatic mission when they damn well know you've just come from a massive space battle is...dumb at best.
Similarly bumping into 'death sentence in 12 systems' was kinda dumb, if they were meant to be the same two guys, because they have to leave Jedah more-or-less immediately and go to tatooine as well for...more or less no apparent reason...to be killed by obi like 4 days later.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Look, you can kinda sorta work your way around it, but it works *much better* if the tantive isn't at Skariff. Send a ship, have it dock with the tantive and have the ESD whatever show up immediately after. At least preserves a vague notion that 'we're on a diplomatic mission' might be a semi-plausible lie.
Also, Blinking spirit: Agree.
sorry all - didn't notice a rogue full stop despoilering that stuff for a while there.
That's true, but there was another way to do it.
Of course, we've got young Han Solo and Lando Calrissian coming up.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.