Not sure this is the exact best spot for this, but it seems apropriate.
Alright, I'm gonna start with the feeling that I had when coming out of the movie: disappointment. See, I like to write and I'm a huge DC comics fan. I write for a hobby, and I try to get better at it while I'm doing so, but I'm not paid to do it. When I see the DC logo on a movie made by a megastudio like Warner Brothers, I'm hopeful they will get the best people to do this job. So it boggles the hell out of me how such an important movie got such a mediocre script from people that actually get paid to write stories.
The movie has good things going for it. I'm gonna address them first, because they would be the ingredients for an excellent movie if properly exploited:
- The movie recognizes the events from Man of Steel and makes use of these events in a very interesting way. There are sites in the world where the kryptonian technology lays abandoned for people to scavenge it, and there are places where they built a whole military base around the fallen ships. There is media repercussion about the behavior of Superman and there is the recognition that A LOT of innocent people died. This is excellent, the movie should recognize that. We get glimpses of the implications of Supes' deeds via interviews in the media, where people are asking the hard questions: should superman be held accountable for his actions? Should people treat him as a God or Messiah? Is he an alien or a normal guy trying to do the right thing? These are such HUGE and important questions, and it would have been awesome if the movie ACTUALLY addressed them. But no, they just ask the questions and forget about them later. When superman is going to be interviewed, when we would have the opportunity to see him defend himself and his behavior, we get nothing because it was all a plot point to set up a terrorist attack from lex luthor. The movie knew what questions to ask, it just never bothered answering them.
- Ben Affleck looked decent as old/battered batman. I won't say he is the best Batman I've ever seen because I feel like he had a lot of cheesy lines and he didn't represent well the detective aspect of Batman, but he did made a good impersonation of the menacing aspect of him. I think he was alright as Bruce Wayne, and his fight scenes and accessories as Batman were really, really nice. His suit to take on superman was amazing, and the voice distortion added to the movie, instead of looking like a Christian Bale rip-off. I think the script of the conversations between Alfred and Bruce could have been tinkered a little to look better.
- Gal Gadot actually looked good as Wonder Woman. I don't have much to add here. I will say I liked her figthing style, even though it looked a tad bit CGI-ish. Her Diana Prince impersonation was excellent.
Alright, these were the highlights of the movie for me. Unfortunately they don't even come close to compensate the downsides:
- The movie script was a mess. Multiple things were happening and they looked patched together and rushed. We had to be introduced to Bruce Wayne and to Lex Luthor, and to the repercussion of Superman's actions on the last movie. That took around an hour or so, and the pace was very slow and messy. Then we have a quick fight between Batman vs Supes, and a rushed fight against Doomsday that ends with Superman having to use a spear of kryptonite to kill him. I would lose hours explaining why trying to cram all these things together just doesn't work in a 2 and half hour long movie. The introduction from the other members of the league themselves also felt very pushed and lazy.
- Jesse Eisenberg was a terrible Lex Luthor. If you read comics and you understand the character of Lex Luthor you will understand what I'm saying. Luthor is a genius, magalomaniac, psycopath and above all an adversary of superman. He is vain, but he is very serious and often sarcastic. In the screen, I would say the Lex Luthor from the Justice League cartoon was one of the best Luthors I've ever seen. He is not a clown, and he has no difficulty to deliver good speeches, he also does not talk like he has some sort of OCD and he has tremendous self-confidence in him being the one with all solutions for the problems of mankind. This was not the Lex Luthor portrayed by Jesse Eisenberg. He portrayed and OCD, childish Lex Luthor. He was barely able to communicate with others and had a somewhat Joker-like behavior. I do not excuse this for the fact that he was supposed to be Lex Luthor's son or any bullsh** like that.
Please, take a look at these videos and understand what Lex Luthor is about:
- The fight between Batman and superman was interesting, but the motivation was a joke, and so was the resolution. It felt rushed, and I feel like Batman would have prepared much better to face a being as powerful as superman. In the beggining of the fight, if Superman had taken him all-in, he would have died on the spot. On the spot. The real batman would not allow that to happen. Superman going after Batman just because Lex Luthor kidnapped his mother is the most lazy, half-assed part of the script in the entire movie, even more than Doomsday. For crying out loud, this was TERRIBLE. In the original Dark Knight Returns, there is a political reason behind Superman going after Batman, and one that makes much more sense: Superman is ordered to go after Batman because he is considered a criminal, but the real reason is because Batman had made Gotham better than the rest of the country with his vigilante justice.
Bear this in mind: this movie could have done that. It was simple - you need Superman to go to that interview and say that he is willing to help, to compesate for all the damage that he has done. The american government says that they will need him to keep his word to attest that he is not just an alien, but an ally of humantiy. Meanwhile Batman is back in Gotham (because of Superman destruction) and is running rampant tackling the criminals all on his own. This causes a massive outcry where people all around the country are divided between siding with Batman's philosophy of 'justice with your own hands' and the need to 'follow the laws, no matter who you are'. People start to copycat Batman and they start to die, which brings the issue to such a great political sphere that the president comes to Superman and tells him: "you said you were willing to help, now it is your time. Stop Batman." BAM! That would be the movie, no Lex Luthor, no Wonder Woman, no Doomsday, just the classical issue of vigilante justice, Superman trying to do what is right and Batman confronting him due to the consequences of his actions.
Also, I don't understand how the movie didn't deliver this line:
- Doomsday was terrible. From the beggining to the end. Doomsday's origin was wrong and him being defeated by kryptonite is even 'wronger'. Understand that Doomsday is one the greatest nemesis of Superman, he deserves a movie of his own. He KILLED superman in combat the first time he showed up, and he is an unstoppable brutal killing machine. He is there to remind us that there are things not even Superman can take care easily, he is there to reminds us what it means for Superman to give all that he can, he is there to remind us that people SHOULD be afraid for what will happen if he fails to stop a monster. I didn't feel ANY of this in this movie, despite the fact that superman 'died'. Doomsday comes with a great sense of inevitability, and despite the fact that this movie tried to convey that, it just falls flat on so many levels.
Please, watch this fight scene and tell me if it was not better than the one in the movie:
This one actually makes you scared of Doomsday, it actually makes you feel that Superman is going to lose.
- Finally the last thing I will touch, but certainly not the last problem the movie had: Batman is killing people. WHAT? No, I mean... WHAT? HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THAT? The whole idea of the character of Batman is to thread the line between doing what is right without compromising one self with killing. This conflict in this movie would be perfect: Batman would say how dangerous Superman was and how little regard he had for the lives of those around him when changing jabs with Zod. He would say that every life matter and that you should not kill, no matter what, especially him, a uber-powerful alien being. IF BATMAN KILLS, ALL THAT GOES OUT OF THE WINDOW. Such a missed opportunity for a confrontation, and doing that precisely with Batman, the guy that more often than I can remember acted as a moral compass for Superman and the entire Justice League.
Well guys, that will be it for now, I may revisit this original post to add more things. At the moment, I'm in as much shock as I'm in disappointment. I didn't think Man of Steel was bad, I got the vibe of the movie, I was hopeful for the direction they would take it now, but this was TERRIBLE. I just can't understand it. These pieces of movies/cartoons that I showed you guys were all from THE SAME DC! GOOD PIECES! How can they make such great fight scenes/original material and poop all over themselves with this mess of a movie? How can they lose track of what all their characters mean? How can they allow this movie to hit the big screen? The first big showdown between Batman and Superman is this??? Ah.. I can't even express how sad I am with this outcome.
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- Finally the last thing I will touch, but certainly not the last problem the movie had: Batman is killing people. WHAT? No, I mean... WHAT? HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THAT? The whole idea of the character of Batman is to thread the line between doing what is right without compromising one self with killing. This conflict in this movie would be perfect: Batman would say how dangerous Superman was and how little regard he had for the lives of those around him when changing jabs with Zod. He would say that every life matter and that you should not kill, no matter what, especially him, a uber-powerful alien being. IF BATMAN KILLS, ALL THAT GOES OUT OF THE WINDOW. Such a missed opportunity for a confrontation, and doing that precisely with Batman, the guy that more often than I can remember acted as a moral compass for Superman and the entire Justice League.
I'm not sure where people developed the idea that Batman isn't allowed to kill. Across his several different iterations Batman has killed plenty. Just look at the Tim Burton films, some of those kills aren't even necessary they were just straight up murder. Superman not killing I get. He has been more consistent through the generations but Batman has been through multiple versions some of which have been killers.
That said I have no doubt the movie is terrible. It was starting to look like a train wreck a while ago.
I'm not sure where people developed the idea that Batman isn't allowed to kill. Across his several different iterations Batman has killed plenty. Just look at the Tim Burton films, some of those kills aren't even necessary they were just straight up murder. Superman not killing I get. He has been more consistent through the generations but Batman has been through multiple versions some of which have been killers.
That said I have no doubt the movie is terrible. It was starting to look like a train wreck a while ago.
I'm well aware Batman has killed before. When it comes to cannon, especially looking at new 52 universe, he has either not done so or done in very rare ocasions. Batman DOES NOT kill every mugger/thief he faces, on the contrary, killing for him is abominable, the last of the last of the last resources even.
If a movie is not following that, they should explain why. If they don't, it just looks terrible.
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I'm well aware Batman has killed before. When it comes to cannon, especially looking at new 52 universe, he has either not done so or done in very rare ocassions. Batman DOES NOT kill every mugger/thief he faces, on the contrary, killing for him is abominable, the last of the last of the last resources even.
If a movie is not following that, they should explain why. If they don't, it just looks terrible.
Fair points. I am not familiar with what is the new cannon after the new 52 (aside from Superman's undies gone missing) and I feel comfortable saying that the average movie goer is not familiar either. If they plan on deviating from what the popular consensus of what Batman is (especially what Nolan has shown Batman to be considering the Nolan version is the most known to the current generation of movie goers) then due explanation would be in order. I have a feeling additional backstory was possibly cut from the movie considering how many things it is already trying to do all at once.
I'm not sure where people developed the idea that Batman isn't allowed to kill. Across his several different iterations Batman has killed plenty. Just look at the Tim Burton films, some of those kills aren't even necessary they were just straight up murder. Superman not killing I get. He has been more consistent through the generations but Batman has been through multiple versions some of which have been killers.
Batman's rule against killing was established within the first couple of years of publication. Because he's often been portrayed as "darker and edgier" sometimes he does things to the bad guys which, in the real world, would be lethal or at least extremely dangerous, but within the fiction of the story he never, ever ends a life. That's been a constant feature of his characterization for decades.
EDIT: Found it. Batman #4, 1940: "We will never kill with weapons of any kind."
I'm not sure where people developed the idea that Batman isn't allowed to kill. Across his several different iterations Batman has killed plenty. Just look at the Tim Burton films, some of those kills aren't even necessary they were just straight up murder. Superman not killing I get. He has been more consistent through the generations but Batman has been through multiple versions some of which have been killers.
Batman's rule against killing was established within the first couple of years of publication. Because he's often been portrayed as "darker and edgier" sometimes he does things to the bad guys which, in the real world, would be lethal or at least extremely dangerous, but within the fiction of the story he never, ever ends a life. That's been a constant feature of his characterization for decades.
Batman's characterization has not been consistent throughout his life though. Some iterations of Batman have killed people. In the Tim Burton Films Keaton killed lots of bad guys for example.
But it is an objection people have whenever he does. A totally predictable one.
Yea, in it and similar there are a lot of 'cool action' scenes in which you would certainly expect the hostile to be dead - for example in daredevil 2,
there is a scene in which daredevil is fighting an endless parade of bikers. He wraps a chain around one's neck and pulls him down ~two flights of stairs;
that dude would probably be super-dead but we can live with that because he *might* not die.
Batman is more interesting when he is batman, and not the punisher.
I was almost 90% right in my prediction of the movie from the other thread except it came out as much worse than that.
This was an amalgam of 5-6 different movies stitched together into a doomsday abomination.
We had: Man of steel 2, Batman begins again, Lex luthor's life, Batman v superman, Doomsday, dawn of justice league.
This whole movie could have been broken into 6 movies.
The characters were very bad.
Lex Luthor's character was ruined. The most absolute cringiest character in the whole thing! Stop casting Eisenberg...
Ben Affleck sucks, he just does, he cannot play a good superhero, never has and never will. Stop pushing it, it won't happen. All you saw was the same as in the DD movie: slackjaw, 1 expression and monotone.
Wonder woman was a shoe in at the end just like I said it was: she did nothing the whole time and all of a sudden, she wants to become relevant.
There is also a persistent inconsistency in the characters that simply screams of poor story telling.
Batman hates Superman. A lot. Like a whole lot! He saves an employee at the beginning and the character seems very humane and kind. Nope, red herring, he doesn't give a damn about anyone.
Batman is about to slay the god. Nope, jokes on you, Superman said Martha, they're best buddies now.
Batman branded criminals for death, will he do it to Lex who pretty much did crimes far worse than the criminals he branded? Nah, not worth it. The wall though, better watch out!
I didn't even understand his suit. He got shot in the back of the head twice but was ok. However, he got stabbed... so the suit stops bullets but not knives???
The cops are colluding with the bat. But the cop with the shotgun shoots him...
Superman doesn't have feelings. Except for Lois.
Then he does for everyone else. And then he doesn't. But he loves his mom and Lois. Then he loves Earth more.
Lois is... just... so... useless and annoying...
Wonder Woman has absolutely no reason to be in this movie. She was a fighter, she decided to ditch but now is the time to get back in the game... but not when Zod was destroying the Earth.
She also has expert thief's wits and hacking powers with a never ending bank account.
Alfred warns Batman about killing but doesn't mind killing himself when he controls the jet...
There were parts of the movie where the speeches were inaudible. At the beginning, when Affleck was using his phone, I had no clue who the old man was but I thought I heard "Dad", which makes no sense. At the end also, Lex says a bunch of stuff, I have no idea what it was.
Some parts simply made no sense whatsoever. Like Batman's vision with the dude in the portal...
DC should stick to cartoon movies, they do an excellent job there. Otherwise, they will break that reboot button.
Rotten tomatoes had a spot on score: 29%. It sucks. It just sucks...
The only actor I feel sorry for is Superman's. He did the best job imho.
I wholeheartedly agree with a majority of the assessment made about the film, especially some inconsistencies I've yet to notice that is until reading Ashiok's opening message.
I actually can't believe I've missed those glaring incongruities although -- sarcasm aside -- I left the theater with a headache because of the pacing of the movie and needed to concentrate on something else...
As a movie it was terrible and initial reactions from audiences are comparing it to GL (which I believe is a worse film). The only saving grace -- for me anyway and comic enthusiasts alike -- is the debut of the Trinity and the beginning of the DCEU on the silver-screen; everything will ripple from this film to create the DC universe's foundation.
Given that, I can't grasp why Snyder and Goyer spear-headed this monumental operation: Is it because Snyder has done DC films previously (Watchmen) and that BvS is the sequal to MoS? Goyer co-wrote Nolan's DK Trilogy so is he some sort of big-shot now? Is it because they are both die-hard comic fans and they can speak volumes to the films target audience?
At any rate, it was bittersweet to see first-hand how the film presented itself with such beloved characters handled the way they were.
BvS is doing very well financially and hopefully Warner Bros. doesn't assume we all will just keel over and accept anything mediocre as long as it has Supes, Bats, and CGI accompanied by explosions.
BvS is doing very well financially and hopefully Warner Bros. doesn't assume we all will just keel over and accept anything mediocre as long as it has Supes, Bats, and CGI accompanied by explosions.
A majority of the time the profit is all the studio cars about. Why do you think Micheal Bay keeps getting to make transformers movies? Because he puts butts in seats on opening weekend like its no ones business regardless of the actual quality of the film.
I went to this movie to see Wonder Woman and Batman and it delivered on that front. Robins suit Easter egg makes me super excited to see Suicide Squad. The biggest shocker for me was how much I loved Ben Afflecks version of Batman/Bruce Wayne, I thought it would be meh at best. Doomsday was butchered, and Lois/Clark relationship was really bad.
I give it 2.5 out of 5. They really should made Origin movies before they put them all in the same movie. Too much cluster. The most unforgivable part of the movie was how bad Doomsday was. That was a butchering of a great villain.
BvS is doing very well financially and hopefully Warner Bros. doesn't assume we all will just keel over and accept anything mediocre as long as it has Supes, Bats, and CGI accompanied by explosions.
A majority of the time the profit is all the studio cars about. Why do you think Micheal Bay keeps getting to make transformers movies? Because he puts butts in seats on opening weekend like its no ones business regardless of the actual quality of the film.
Very true.
My hopes are that there will be a drop-off for the second week of release. Basically showing that the property has a great amount of potential but after initial reviews, the excitement that the media and press generated were stemmed by critics.
BvS is doing very well financially and hopefully Warner Bros. doesn't assume we all will just keel over and accept anything mediocre as long as it has Supes, Bats, and CGI accompanied by explosions.
A majority of the time the profit is all the studio cars about. Why do you think Micheal Bay keeps getting to make transformers movies? Because he puts butts in seats on opening weekend like its no ones business regardless of the actual quality of the film.
Very true.
My hopes are that there will be a drop-off for the second week of release. Basically showing that the property has a great amount of potential but after initial reviews, the excitement that the media and press generated were stemmed by critics.
It had a massive (>55%) drop off on the sunday. It's going to make decent money, but I bet way less than they were hoping for.
BvS is doing very well financially and hopefully Warner Bros. doesn't assume we all will just keel over and accept anything mediocre as long as it has Supes, Bats, and CGI accompanied by explosions.
A majority of the time the profit is all the studio cars about. Why do you think Micheal Bay keeps getting to make transformers movies? Because he puts butts in seats on opening weekend like its no ones business regardless of the actual quality of the film.
Very true.
My hopes are that there will be a drop-off for the second week of release. Basically showing that the property has a great amount of potential but after initial reviews, the excitement that the media and press generated were stemmed by critics.
It had a massive (>55%) drop off on the sunday. It's going to make decent money, but I bet way less than they were hoping for.
It made a couple records for Warner Bros. too: highest grossing film and steepest decline in viewers.
Something that has puzzled me for a while (Starting with Watchmen and continuing through this film), does Snyder legitimately not understand the characters he adapts into his films or does he just not respect them?
Batman in this film is NOT the Batman of the comics. Superman is barely even a character and he certainly never acts like a hero. Lex Luthor, as stated in the OP, is not even remotely like the character has ever been in any iteration. Either he doesn't understand the characters or he just doesn't respect them. Is it possible Snyder is so arrogant that he just thinks his version is better?
Fear not, this film will make millions ensuring that he still gets to direct the two Justice league movies! Thanks DC (and Warner Brothers), for putting this tool in charge of so many characters I've loved for years...
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I can honestly say that I didn't see any posters or trailers that made this movie appealing. I just couldn't wrap my head around the plot given the movies we've had and how they've developed batman and superman until now.
I'm glad I didn't break down and see it, I won't support this financially. I wanted to wait for reviews and it's pretty bleak so far even compared to my low expectations.
If what y'all say is true; RIP lex, you used to be a pretty engaging villain with promise...
I can honestly say that I didn't see any posters or trailers that made this movie appealing. I just couldn't wrap my head around the plot given the movies we've had and how they've developed batman and superman until now.
I'm glad I didn't break down and see it, I won't support this financially. I wanted to wait for reviews and it's pretty bleak so far even compared to my low expectations.
If what y'all say is true; RIP lex, you used to be a pretty engaging villain with promise...
So Variety estimates that Batman v. Superman requires about 800 million to break even given the amount of promotion surrounding it.
Keep in mind, Warner Bros. certainly doesn't want to break even with this film. They want it to be a smash success, especially since it is meant to launch a multi-franchise cinematic universe in the same vein that Marvel has done with its films.
The film has apparently thusfar made about $530,430,426 worldwide, according to Box Office Mojo. Now, this is in one weekend, but keep in mind, this film is getting horrible reviews and word of mouth. So if there's a sharp decline in the audience, both domestically and internationally, the movie might not ever make it to the profit margins Warner Bros. hopes for. And since this film is their foundation upon which to launch Justice League, they've got to be looking to make at least a billion.
So the point is, if nobody sees this film, we can defeat Zach Snyder and save the Justice League.
So Variety estimates that Batman v. Superman requires about 800 million to break even given the amount of promotion surrounding it.
Keep in mind, Warner Bros. certainly doesn't want to break even with this film. They want it to be a smash success, especially since it is meant to launch a multi-franchise cinematic universe in the same vein that Marvel has done with its films.
The film has apparently thusfar made about $530,430,426 worldwide, according to Box Office Mojo. Now, this is in one weekend, but keep in mind, this film is getting horrible reviews and word of mouth. So if there's a sharp decline in the audience, both domestically and internationally, the movie might not ever make it to the profit margins Warner Bros. hopes for. And since this film is their foundation upon which to launch Justice League, they've got to be looking to make at least a billion.
So the point is, if nobody sees this film, we can defeat Zach Snyder and save the Justice League.
*FURIOUSLY MASHES LIKE BUTTON*
Can we have someone for whom even the positive reviews don't use phrases like 'grim' 'depressing' or 'utterly joyless'?
I was never much of a reader of comics (my parents weren't super keen on me spending money on them) but I dabbled, and watched a lot of the cartoons available. Batman and Wonderwoman were some of my favorite heroes growing up. I knew about some of the marvel heroes - but by this I mean I'd heard of them but not really seen anything. Hell, TDK was at one point* my easy favorite hero film of all time, and a contender for my favorite film of all time.
But at some point, Marvel worked out the trick to making awesome films (the characters and people making them have fun) and DC decided to give their films to someone who seems to hate the characters and possibly have never heard of them.
I mean who doesn't like that classic bat-branding iron, right? WHo the gibbering hell gives batman a branding iron and some assault rifles?
Hell, TDK was at one point* my easy favorite hero film of all time, and a contender for my favorite film of all time.
See, that was the thing, remember when Batman films were awesome?
But at some point, Marvel worked out the trick to making awesome films (the characters and people making them have fun) and DC decided to give their films to someone who seems to hate the characters and possibly have never heard of them.
I mean, I think the Marvel films are pretty damn overrated. Now, I never saw Winter Soldier, apparently that's really good. And Deadpool is like what an amusement park ride was to me when I was a kid, and when you think about all the ways that movie could have failed to deliver, you also have to recognize it as a legitimate work of craftsmanship.
But like, Avengers 2 was horrid. Iron Man 3 was awful. Guardians of the Galaxy was fun but rather lackluster. Marvel films are by no means exempt from quality problems. It's just that DC's are more pronounced because they're producing a small volume of hero films and they're sucking.
Here's the thing I want to know, though: do we even want a DC cinematic universe?
Like Marvel has this cinematic universe going on, but is that really what we want for DC, or even with Marvel? To clarify, I'm not talking about a bunch of franchises out at the same time. I'm asking do we want what's going on with Marvel, in which all of the franchises become interconnected and there's this shared universe, as displayed with the Marvel films and the heroes of different franchises weaving in and out of each others' movies.
Do we want that for DC? Would this be superior to just having Batman films, Superman films, Wonder Woman films, whoever else's films, and Justice League films as separate entities with minimal crossover?
Here's the thing I want to know, though: do we even want a DC cinematic universe?
If this film is any indication of what would be to come in a DC cinematic universe then no I don't want it. DC has proven it is capable of making an excellent solo film (even if it was the middle child of a trilogy) and has yet to show that it is capable of crossing movies without mucking it up entirely.
Yeah, it was a mess. One of those messes that's all the more disappointing because it showed periodic flashes of promise. Opening sequence of Bruce Wayne in Metropolis? Actually really good; develops his motivation and could have been the foundation for a much better movie. Ben Affleck in general was a good Batman, and it's a shame he's probably going to be considered a terrible Batman because the writers had Batman committing vehicular homicide, outright gunning people down, getting completely played by Lex Luthor, and being the only person in the room who does not know Superman's secret identity.
Superman's first line when he lands by the Bat-Signal, to the effect of "I was wrong, please listen to me"? Yeah, that's exactly what Superman would say in that situation. A pity that's about the only one of his lines or actions to which that description applies. Look, I'm on the record as a defender of Man of Steel. Man of Steel was dark, but I felt like Superman generally reacted to the dark circumstances in a Supermanly way, which made the movie a valid and interesting look at his character. But here? He's just rash, violent, and dumb.
Wonder Woman? Jaw-droppingly awesome to finally see in action. But she doesn't actually have any reason to be in the plot.
And Lex Luthor...? Okay, there were no flashes of promise there whatsoever. The character was completely misconceived from start to finish.
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Alright, I'm gonna start with the feeling that I had when coming out of the movie: disappointment. See, I like to write and I'm a huge DC comics fan. I write for a hobby, and I try to get better at it while I'm doing so, but I'm not paid to do it. When I see the DC logo on a movie made by a megastudio like Warner Brothers, I'm hopeful they will get the best people to do this job. So it boggles the hell out of me how such an important movie got such a mediocre script from people that actually get paid to write stories.
The movie has good things going for it. I'm gonna address them first, because they would be the ingredients for an excellent movie if properly exploited:
- The movie recognizes the events from Man of Steel and makes use of these events in a very interesting way. There are sites in the world where the kryptonian technology lays abandoned for people to scavenge it, and there are places where they built a whole military base around the fallen ships. There is media repercussion about the behavior of Superman and there is the recognition that A LOT of innocent people died. This is excellent, the movie should recognize that. We get glimpses of the implications of Supes' deeds via interviews in the media, where people are asking the hard questions: should superman be held accountable for his actions? Should people treat him as a God or Messiah? Is he an alien or a normal guy trying to do the right thing? These are such HUGE and important questions, and it would have been awesome if the movie ACTUALLY addressed them. But no, they just ask the questions and forget about them later. When superman is going to be interviewed, when we would have the opportunity to see him defend himself and his behavior, we get nothing because it was all a plot point to set up a terrorist attack from lex luthor. The movie knew what questions to ask, it just never bothered answering them.
- Ben Affleck looked decent as old/battered batman. I won't say he is the best Batman I've ever seen because I feel like he had a lot of cheesy lines and he didn't represent well the detective aspect of Batman, but he did made a good impersonation of the menacing aspect of him. I think he was alright as Bruce Wayne, and his fight scenes and accessories as Batman were really, really nice. His suit to take on superman was amazing, and the voice distortion added to the movie, instead of looking like a Christian Bale rip-off. I think the script of the conversations between Alfred and Bruce could have been tinkered a little to look better.
- Gal Gadot actually looked good as Wonder Woman. I don't have much to add here. I will say I liked her figthing style, even though it looked a tad bit CGI-ish. Her Diana Prince impersonation was excellent.
Alright, these were the highlights of the movie for me. Unfortunately they don't even come close to compensate the downsides:
- The movie script was a mess. Multiple things were happening and they looked patched together and rushed. We had to be introduced to Bruce Wayne and to Lex Luthor, and to the repercussion of Superman's actions on the last movie. That took around an hour or so, and the pace was very slow and messy. Then we have a quick fight between Batman vs Supes, and a rushed fight against Doomsday that ends with Superman having to use a spear of kryptonite to kill him. I would lose hours explaining why trying to cram all these things together just doesn't work in a 2 and half hour long movie. The introduction from the other members of the league themselves also felt very pushed and lazy.
- Jesse Eisenberg was a terrible Lex Luthor. If you read comics and you understand the character of Lex Luthor you will understand what I'm saying. Luthor is a genius, magalomaniac, psycopath and above all an adversary of superman. He is vain, but he is very serious and often sarcastic. In the screen, I would say the Lex Luthor from the Justice League cartoon was one of the best Luthors I've ever seen. He is not a clown, and he has no difficulty to deliver good speeches, he also does not talk like he has some sort of OCD and he has tremendous self-confidence in him being the one with all solutions for the problems of mankind. This was not the Lex Luthor portrayed by Jesse Eisenberg. He portrayed and OCD, childish Lex Luthor. He was barely able to communicate with others and had a somewhat Joker-like behavior. I do not excuse this for the fact that he was supposed to be Lex Luthor's son or any bullsh** like that.
Please, take a look at these videos and understand what Lex Luthor is about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4TC1xMyZDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI0vtqxoG1k
- The fight between Batman and superman was interesting, but the motivation was a joke, and so was the resolution. It felt rushed, and I feel like Batman would have prepared much better to face a being as powerful as superman. In the beggining of the fight, if Superman had taken him all-in, he would have died on the spot. On the spot. The real batman would not allow that to happen. Superman going after Batman just because Lex Luthor kidnapped his mother is the most lazy, half-assed part of the script in the entire movie, even more than Doomsday. For crying out loud, this was TERRIBLE. In the original Dark Knight Returns, there is a political reason behind Superman going after Batman, and one that makes much more sense: Superman is ordered to go after Batman because he is considered a criminal, but the real reason is because Batman had made Gotham better than the rest of the country with his vigilante justice.
Bear this in mind: this movie could have done that. It was simple - you need Superman to go to that interview and say that he is willing to help, to compesate for all the damage that he has done. The american government says that they will need him to keep his word to attest that he is not just an alien, but an ally of humantiy. Meanwhile Batman is back in Gotham (because of Superman destruction) and is running rampant tackling the criminals all on his own. This causes a massive outcry where people all around the country are divided between siding with Batman's philosophy of 'justice with your own hands' and the need to 'follow the laws, no matter who you are'. People start to copycat Batman and they start to die, which brings the issue to such a great political sphere that the president comes to Superman and tells him: "you said you were willing to help, now it is your time. Stop Batman." BAM! That would be the movie, no Lex Luthor, no Wonder Woman, no Doomsday, just the classical issue of vigilante justice, Superman trying to do what is right and Batman confronting him due to the consequences of his actions.
Also, I don't understand how the movie didn't deliver this line:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU94I6SjVow
- Doomsday was terrible. From the beggining to the end. Doomsday's origin was wrong and him being defeated by kryptonite is even 'wronger'. Understand that Doomsday is one the greatest nemesis of Superman, he deserves a movie of his own. He KILLED superman in combat the first time he showed up, and he is an unstoppable brutal killing machine. He is there to remind us that there are things not even Superman can take care easily, he is there to reminds us what it means for Superman to give all that he can, he is there to remind us that people SHOULD be afraid for what will happen if he fails to stop a monster. I didn't feel ANY of this in this movie, despite the fact that superman 'died'. Doomsday comes with a great sense of inevitability, and despite the fact that this movie tried to convey that, it just falls flat on so many levels.
Please, watch this fight scene and tell me if it was not better than the one in the movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8q9pzXl_yE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6hqC5Z9was
This one actually makes you scared of Doomsday, it actually makes you feel that Superman is going to lose.
- Finally the last thing I will touch, but certainly not the last problem the movie had: Batman is killing people. WHAT? No, I mean... WHAT? HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THAT? The whole idea of the character of Batman is to thread the line between doing what is right without compromising one self with killing. This conflict in this movie would be perfect: Batman would say how dangerous Superman was and how little regard he had for the lives of those around him when changing jabs with Zod. He would say that every life matter and that you should not kill, no matter what, especially him, a uber-powerful alien being. IF BATMAN KILLS, ALL THAT GOES OUT OF THE WINDOW. Such a missed opportunity for a confrontation, and doing that precisely with Batman, the guy that more often than I can remember acted as a moral compass for Superman and the entire Justice League.
Well guys, that will be it for now, I may revisit this original post to add more things. At the moment, I'm in as much shock as I'm in disappointment. I didn't think Man of Steel was bad, I got the vibe of the movie, I was hopeful for the direction they would take it now, but this was TERRIBLE. I just can't understand it. These pieces of movies/cartoons that I showed you guys were all from THE SAME DC! GOOD PIECES! How can they make such great fight scenes/original material and poop all over themselves with this mess of a movie? How can they lose track of what all their characters mean? How can they allow this movie to hit the big screen? The first big showdown between Batman and Superman is this??? Ah.. I can't even express how sad I am with this outcome.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
That said I have no doubt the movie is terrible. It was starting to look like a train wreck a while ago.
If a movie is not following that, they should explain why. If they don't, it just looks terrible.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Not for me, who has already spoiled the storyline such as it may be, but for those who actually care.
EDIT: Found it. Batman #4, 1940: "We will never kill with weapons of any kind."
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
But it is an objection people have whenever he does. A totally predictable one.
Yea, in it and similar there are a lot of 'cool action' scenes in which you would certainly expect the hostile to be dead - for example in daredevil 2,
Batman is more interesting when he is batman, and not the punisher.
This was an amalgam of 5-6 different movies stitched together into a doomsday abomination.
We had: Man of steel 2, Batman begins again, Lex luthor's life, Batman v superman, Doomsday, dawn of justice league.
This whole movie could have been broken into 6 movies.
The characters were very bad.
Lex Luthor's character was ruined. The most absolute cringiest character in the whole thing! Stop casting Eisenberg...
Ben Affleck sucks, he just does, he cannot play a good superhero, never has and never will. Stop pushing it, it won't happen. All you saw was the same as in the DD movie: slackjaw, 1 expression and monotone.
Wonder woman was a shoe in at the end just like I said it was: she did nothing the whole time and all of a sudden, she wants to become relevant.
There is also a persistent inconsistency in the characters that simply screams of poor story telling.
Batman hates Superman. A lot. Like a whole lot! He saves an employee at the beginning and the character seems very humane and kind. Nope, red herring, he doesn't give a damn about anyone.
Batman is about to slay the god. Nope, jokes on you, Superman said Martha, they're best buddies now.
Batman branded criminals for death, will he do it to Lex who pretty much did crimes far worse than the criminals he branded? Nah, not worth it. The wall though, better watch out!
I didn't even understand his suit. He got shot in the back of the head twice but was ok. However, he got stabbed... so the suit stops bullets but not knives???
The cops are colluding with the bat. But the cop with the shotgun shoots him...
Superman doesn't have feelings. Except for Lois.
Then he does for everyone else. And then he doesn't. But he loves his mom and Lois. Then he loves Earth more.
Lois is... just... so... useless and annoying...
Wonder Woman has absolutely no reason to be in this movie. She was a fighter, she decided to ditch but now is the time to get back in the game... but not when Zod was destroying the Earth.
She also has expert thief's wits and hacking powers with a never ending bank account.
Alfred warns Batman about killing but doesn't mind killing himself when he controls the jet...
There were parts of the movie where the speeches were inaudible. At the beginning, when Affleck was using his phone, I had no clue who the old man was but I thought I heard "Dad", which makes no sense. At the end also, Lex says a bunch of stuff, I have no idea what it was.
Some parts simply made no sense whatsoever. Like Batman's vision with the dude in the portal...
DC should stick to cartoon movies, they do an excellent job there. Otherwise, they will break that reboot button.
Rotten tomatoes had a spot on score: 29%. It sucks. It just sucks...
The only actor I feel sorry for is Superman's. He did the best job imho.
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What I think of MaRo
I actually can't believe I've missed those glaring incongruities although -- sarcasm aside -- I left the theater with a headache because of the pacing of the movie and needed to concentrate on something else...
As a movie it was terrible and initial reactions from audiences are comparing it to GL (which I believe is a worse film). The only saving grace -- for me anyway and comic enthusiasts alike -- is the debut of the Trinity and the beginning of the DCEU on the silver-screen; everything will ripple from this film to create the DC universe's foundation.
Given that, I can't grasp why Snyder and Goyer spear-headed this monumental operation: Is it because Snyder has done DC films previously (Watchmen) and that BvS is the sequal to MoS? Goyer co-wrote Nolan's DK Trilogy so is he some sort of big-shot now? Is it because they are both die-hard comic fans and they can speak volumes to the films target audience?
At any rate, it was bittersweet to see first-hand how the film presented itself with such beloved characters handled the way they were.
BvS is doing very well financially and hopefully Warner Bros. doesn't assume we all will just keel over and accept anything mediocre as long as it has Supes, Bats, and CGI accompanied by explosions.
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I give it 2.5 out of 5. They really should made Origin movies before they put them all in the same movie. Too much cluster. The most unforgivable part of the movie was how bad Doomsday was. That was a butchering of a great villain.
My hopes are that there will be a drop-off for the second week of release. Basically showing that the property has a great amount of potential but after initial reviews, the excitement that the media and press generated were stemmed by critics.
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It had a massive (>55%) drop off on the sunday. It's going to make decent money, but I bet way less than they were hoping for.
Both of these just shy of a week.
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Batman in this film is NOT the Batman of the comics. Superman is barely even a character and he certainly never acts like a hero. Lex Luthor, as stated in the OP, is not even remotely like the character has ever been in any iteration. Either he doesn't understand the characters or he just doesn't respect them. Is it possible Snyder is so arrogant that he just thinks his version is better?
Fear not, this film will make millions ensuring that he still gets to direct the two Justice league movies! Thanks DC (and Warner Brothers), for putting this tool in charge of so many characters I've loved for years...
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I'm glad I didn't break down and see it, I won't support this financially. I wanted to wait for reviews and it's pretty bleak so far even compared to my low expectations.
If what y'all say is true; RIP lex, you used to be a pretty engaging villain with promise...
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Keep in mind, Warner Bros. certainly doesn't want to break even with this film. They want it to be a smash success, especially since it is meant to launch a multi-franchise cinematic universe in the same vein that Marvel has done with its films.
The film has apparently thusfar made about $530,430,426 worldwide, according to Box Office Mojo. Now, this is in one weekend, but keep in mind, this film is getting horrible reviews and word of mouth. So if there's a sharp decline in the audience, both domestically and internationally, the movie might not ever make it to the profit margins Warner Bros. hopes for. And since this film is their foundation upon which to launch Justice League, they've got to be looking to make at least a billion.
So the point is, if nobody sees this film, we can defeat Zach Snyder and save the Justice League.
*FURIOUSLY MASHES LIKE BUTTON*
Can we have someone for whom even the positive reviews don't use phrases like 'grim' 'depressing' or 'utterly joyless'?
I was never much of a reader of comics (my parents weren't super keen on me spending money on them) but I dabbled, and watched a lot of the cartoons available. Batman and Wonderwoman were some of my favorite heroes growing up. I knew about some of the marvel heroes - but by this I mean I'd heard of them but not really seen anything. Hell, TDK was at one point* my easy favorite hero film of all time, and a contender for my favorite film of all time.
But at some point, Marvel worked out the trick to making awesome films (the characters and people making them have fun) and DC decided to give their films to someone who seems to hate the characters and possibly have never heard of them.
I mean who doesn't like that classic bat-branding iron, right? WHo the gibbering hell gives batman a branding iron and some assault rifles?
Last time I checked it was about 3K.
A second one popped up somewhere from India; 1K.
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I mean, I think the Marvel films are pretty damn overrated. Now, I never saw Winter Soldier, apparently that's really good. And Deadpool is like what an amusement park ride was to me when I was a kid, and when you think about all the ways that movie could have failed to deliver, you also have to recognize it as a legitimate work of craftsmanship.
But like, Avengers 2 was horrid. Iron Man 3 was awful. Guardians of the Galaxy was fun but rather lackluster. Marvel films are by no means exempt from quality problems. It's just that DC's are more pronounced because they're producing a small volume of hero films and they're sucking.
Here's the thing I want to know, though: do we even want a DC cinematic universe?
Like Marvel has this cinematic universe going on, but is that really what we want for DC, or even with Marvel? To clarify, I'm not talking about a bunch of franchises out at the same time. I'm asking do we want what's going on with Marvel, in which all of the franchises become interconnected and there's this shared universe, as displayed with the Marvel films and the heroes of different franchises weaving in and out of each others' movies.
Do we want that for DC? Would this be superior to just having Batman films, Superman films, Wonder Woman films, whoever else's films, and Justice League films as separate entities with minimal crossover?
Superman's first line when he lands by the Bat-Signal, to the effect of "I was wrong, please listen to me"? Yeah, that's exactly what Superman would say in that situation. A pity that's about the only one of his lines or actions to which that description applies. Look, I'm on the record as a defender of Man of Steel. Man of Steel was dark, but I felt like Superman generally reacted to the dark circumstances in a Supermanly way, which made the movie a valid and interesting look at his character. But here? He's just rash, violent, and dumb.
Wonder Woman? Jaw-droppingly awesome to finally see in action. But she doesn't actually have any reason to be in the plot.
And Lex Luthor...? Okay, there were no flashes of promise there whatsoever. The character was completely misconceived from start to finish.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.