The problem i have with the argument over Morales taking over as Spidey is that Bucky does the same in comics (and speculation being that will do the same in the MCU) for Capt.
What's more Morales has much more depth as to WHY he takes over the mantle than Bucky does, Bucky is all "well i can do everything he did and i have a badass metal arm so give me the star spangled shield/uniform".
@Blink: Actually Miles doesn't have the same power suit as Peter, he has similar attributes but the Strength/Agility is different, he also has the paralyzing sting and camouflage to compensate for lower str./agi. comparatively.
He doesnt get the webbing if i recall correctly unlike the Ultimate Spidey who had natural webbing and is dependent of the one he makes (like the old Spidey... but i cant recall if the fluid formula is something he knows how to make or was given to him...)
And yes i totally agree with you regarding barriers and identification...
Didn't see this mentioned but one of the reasons Samuel L Jackson plays Nick Fury is that ultimate universe Fury is blqck and said in one of the comics that if they made a movie he'd want Samuel L Jackson to play him.
Not really true, Marvel originally modeled Ultimate Nick AFTER SLJ, and then during one of the first comic issues have him pool a Deadpool by stating he would like Samuel L. Jackson to play him if they ever made a movie.
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I have deep reservations about the underlying premise here that people can only identify with characters of their own race/gender/etc. I want to see more diversity in the protagonist pool for exactly the opposite reason: to get white readers identifying with black characters, black readers identifying with white characters, men identifying with women, women identifying with men, and everybody starting to realize how freaking stupid these identity barriers are.
At no point did I said people can only identify with their own race. They all love Spider-man and the Avengers. I'm saying it's nice when they can point to a mainstream American black superhero that isn't a sidekick and has never been to prison.
Although, to be honest, my buddies fiancee (who is Nigerian) put it best when she told me that's an easy thing to say (identifying with heroes of other races) when you're in the majority.
But that's a much bigger issue. On the subject of superheroes, I think you're being a little overly pessimistic on the inability of new characters to break into the Silver Age White Boys' Club. You yourself mention Captain Marvel - she's technically a legacy character, but she's got basically bugger-all to do with the previous holders of the name, and I really don't think her rise to popularity would have been significantly hampered had they never existed. And most of the popular X-Men are products of the 70s or later - all with original and not legacy identities, many of them women and minorities. Storm didn't have to be Thor-Woman or whatever; she's Storm. Finally, everybody's said it a billion times now, but it bears repeating: Guardians of the Galaxy proves that Marvel can turn complete unknowns into household names.
We don't have to give up on new superheroes.
I don't think we do either. Kamala Khan is a great example of new character with new Powers, and even though she's only kind-of a Legacy (Ms. Marvel), it's because she idolizes the older character, not that she is replacing her. Outside of the name she's a completely new character. Off the top of my head, I can think of Blue Marvel, Power Man (another Legacy character, but one that fuses Iron Fist and Luke Cage) or Sun Girl (who, amusingly and in a clever misdirection for most people's assumptions is the daughter of a white supervillain), and I like them all.
But that doesn't mean that we can't have interesting Legacy characters either. That's my issue here, that there is such pushback to a black character take over the role of Spider-man. The same thing happened with Sam Wilson taking over as Cap, despite Bucky doing the same thing like 5-6 years ago.
From a story standpoint, it's sometimes kind of dumb for them to acquire the same powers. Obviously this doesn't apply to the badass normals, but what are the odds that irradiated spiders bite two young men in New York City with alliterative names? And from a broader standpoint, is it really the right message to send that female and minority characters can only succeed through imitation of the successes of white men? An original black Avenger who can stand on his own image and accomplishments means far more than a black Spider-Man who will always be riding Peter Parker's coattails.
Out of curiosity, have you read the Miles Morales Ultimate Spider-man? He's definitely his own character which is why people like him. Maybe if he was just a 'black' Peter Parker I'd feel differently, but he stands up on his own. I'm always for giving them a chance before dismissing them. And they have a pretty good story reason for his Spider-bite. And as Sepirel said, he has a different power set with a similar spider-theme.
Agreed, but even Falcon suffers from backlash when he's moved to the forefront or takes over being Cap, despite numerous other characters having done so.
Morales, on the other hand, is a completely different character invented to take on the mantle of Spiderman instead of Peter Parker. Which is dumb. Spiderman is Peter Parker. Why not just make the new character the protagonist in a new series? Why make him Spiderman?
You answered your own question. Morales was invented for Spiderman. It isn't about how to make a popular non-white superhero, with one of the options being to make him Spiderman. It's about what is best for the Spiderman brand, with one of the options being to replace Peter Parker with someone else (who in this case happens to be not white).
Parker or Morales, we're not getting another origin story. Civil War has got enough on its narrative plate already.
In fact, some of the cleverer speculation I'm hearing is that they leave the mask on for most of the movie, leaving it a delicious mystery to the fanboys who's under there.
That would not surprise me at all. They could certainly use it to play into the whole "revealing your secret identity" aspect of Civil War by letting Spiderman keep his identity secret from even the audience. It's also possible they could go with Spiderman as Peter Parker in his initial appearances, and then at some point (maybe post-Civil War) have Morales take over.
Parker or Morales, we're not getting another origin story. Civil War has got enough on its narrative plate already.
In fact, some of the cleverer speculation I'm hearing is that they leave the mask on for most of the movie, leaving it a delicious mystery to the fanboys who's under there.
That would not surprise me at all. They could certainly use it to play into the whole "revealing your secret identity" aspect of Civil War by letting Spiderman keep his identity secret from even the audience. It's also possible they could go with Spiderman as Peter Parker in his initial appearances, and then at some point (maybe post-Civil War) have Morales take over.[/quote]
Oh, absolutely. I would much prefer they didn't reveal his identity in Civil War, just be the centerpoint of the debate on whether or not he should.
At no point did I said people can only identify with their own race.
You may not have meant it, but you actually did kind of say it: "my friends who struggle to find characters they can easily identify with outside of certain stereotypes". You're clearly stating that race eases identification. And of course I'm not going to deny that that's true for most people in America - but I am going to insist that it's at the heart of the problem.
Although, to be honest, my buddies fiancee (who is Nigerian) put it best when she told me that's an easy thing to say (identifying with heroes of other races) when you're in the majority.
That's not putting it best - that's dismissive and unilluminating. (It also appears to be a reversal of the more common complaint that the majority can't understand what it's like to be a minority.) But she's not here to speak for herself, so maybe we're being unfair to her.
In my experience, a funny thing happens with kids when you add diversity to a cast of characters they watch. With an all-white cast, nonwhite kids can get the impression, "White is normal and I'm not white, so I can't identify with these characters because I'm not normal." But with a diverse cast, it seems to become something like "White and nonwhite are both normal, so I'm normal, so I can identify with any and all of these characters." Black kids happily pretend to be Wolverine and white kids happily pretend to be Storm. (Even the "Storm is a girl" thing, which would have been an utterly impassable barrier when I was that age, wayyy worse than race, seems to be starting to come down.) It's about normalization far more than identification.
Kamala Khan is a great example of new character with new Powers, and even though she's only kind-of a Legacy (Ms. Marvel), it's because she idolizes the older character, not that she is replacing her. Outside of the name she's a completely new character.
I agree completely - I just decided that she hasn't yet stood the test of time enough to serve as an example here.
But that doesn't mean that we can't have interesting Legacy characters either. That's my issue here, that there is such pushback to a black character take over the role of Spider-man. The same thing happened with Sam Wilson taking over as Cap, despite Bucky doing the same thing like 5-6 years ago.
I mean, yeah, part of that is just gonna be racism, or whatever you call it when people get upset about "political correctness gone mad". But you do get pushback whenever a new character replaces an old one in the same identity. My own gut reaction to Dick Grayson or Terry McGinnis putting on the cowl is "They're cool in they're own right, but that's not Batman." I imagine if I was a Spidey or Cap fan I'd feel the same way about Bucky, Sam Wilson, and Miles Morales.
Out of curiosity, have you read the Miles Morales Ultimate Spider-man? He's definitely his own character which is why people like him. Maybe if he was just a 'black' Peter Parker I'd feel differently, but he stands up on his own. I'm always for giving them a chance before dismissing them. And they have a pretty good story reason for his Spider-bite. And as Sepirel said, he has a different power set with a similar spider-theme.
I haven't read any Miles Morales - and I haven't read much Peter Parker. I've been trying to restrict my comments to general issues of character identity. I will happily stipulate that Miles Morales qua Miles Morales is a unique and interesting character in his own right, just like Dick Grayson is a unique and interesting character in his own right. But he's using the Spider-Man name and wearing the Spider-Man costume in a comic with "Spider-Man" in the title. Marvel is selling him as Spider-Man. Why? Why not give him his own identity? (Rhetorical question - we both know the answer. I'm just saying they can do better.)
Agreed, but even Falcon suffers from backlash when he's moved to the forefront or takes over being Cap, despite numerous other characters having done so.
And why should he have to be Captain America? He's already Falcon! In my mind, giving up your own identity to take over someone else's is a demotion. (Superman: Future's End #1 explores this theme really well, with Billy Batson deciding whether to be Superman or Captain Marvel. Actually one of the best issues in the New 52, IMO.)
Honestly, what superhero would they make now that isn't just a different incarnation of a previous one?
... Am I supposed to take this question seriously?
Is there a non-infinite number of superheroes? Yes. Therefore, you can make a new one. Not that difficult. People do it all the time.
I think they've literally exhausted all possible superpower options for heroes that aren't (A) Completely overpowered to the point that a story isn't even worth telling. (B) Completely underpowered that any attempts to craft a story will seem completely farfetched.
Or, we could, y'know, recognize that superheroes are characters and not powersets and create a character.
Because they'll still have Spider-man. Same basic pattern, but with a fresh take.
... No, they won't. Spiderman was Peter Parker. Taking a totally separate character and having him put on the Spiderman suit does not make him the same Spiderman. You even say he's not the same Spiderman later in your post. You can't have it both ways.
At no point did I said people can only identify with their own race. They all love Spider-man and the Avengers. I'm saying it's nice when they can point to a mainstream American black superhero that isn't a sidekick and has never been to prison.
Although, to be honest, my buddies fiancee (who is Nigerian) put it best when she told me that's an easy thing to say (identifying with heroes of other races) when you're in the majority.
I am not in the majority and identify with heroes of other races all the time. So you're going to have to select another condescending platitude.
Moreover, what really bothers me about this attitude is it's an attitude that shuts minorities out of roles. There is a long-standing tradition of producers in Hollywood refusing minority actors on the grounds that audiences might not identify with or — I love this one — "be ready for" a minority leading man. I'm reading about how Bruce Lee constantly struggled against this, to the point of being turned down for the role of a Chinese kung fu expert because they weren't sure about how audiences would identify with a star of Chinese race. For a comic book-movie example, the movie Blade, as I understand it, had producers wary because there was question as to whether a black protagonist would have mainstream appeal. Hell, prior to Barack Obama's election, news media outlets clamored over whether or not America was ready for a black president.
Audiences have consistently demonstrated that they are more than capable of identifying with, and even welcoming, people of races other than themselves in the spotlight. Hell, foreign markets don't seem to have a problem with American protagonists judging by box office records.
Yet somehow this idea persists. Despite the reason for the lack of diversity that people are taking issue with largely stemming from people taking that very idea seriously and then applying it to the majority white male audience that is the consumer base of entertainment media. Ooops!
Out of curiosity, have you read the Miles Morales Ultimate Spider-man? He's definitely his own character which is why people like him.
Ok, twice now this has happened. You made a post responding to mine defending the Spiderman switch on the grounds that people really don't like change, and then you proceed to say, "Here are a bunch of changes they've made, and I really like them!" Your logic is baffling to me, Jay13x.
Maybe if he was just a 'black' Peter Parker I'd feel differently, but he stands up on his own. I'm always for giving them a chance before dismissing them. And they have a pretty good story reason for his Spider-bite. And as Sepirel said, he has a different power set with a similar spider-theme.
But then why even bother with the similar spider theme? Why not just say, "Ok, here's this brand new character that's interesting, don't you want to read about him?"
Why make him Affirmative Action Spiderman instead of just having the character on his own merits?
@Blink: Actually Miles doesn't have the same power suit as Peter, he has similar attributes but the Strength/Agility is different, he also has the paralyzing sting and camouflage to compensate for lower str./agi. comparatively.
He doesnt get the webbing if i recall correctly unlike the Ultimate Spidey who had natural webbing and is dependent of the one he makes (like the old Spidey... but i cant recall if the fluid formula is something he knows how to make or was given to him...)
Like I said to raver, powers aren't critical to identity. Hell, Superman gains and loses powers every couple of months, and is always indisputably Superman.
Not really true, Marvel originally modeled Ultimate Nick AFTER SLJ, and then during one of the first comic issues have him pool a Deadpool by stating he would like Samuel L. Jackson to play him if they ever made a movie.
It goes beyond that - when Marvel initially negotiated for likeness rights from Jackson, one of his terms was right of first refusal for any future appearances of Nick Fury in Marvel movies. Contractually, they had to let him be Fury, even if for some reason they'd want to have cast a white actor. And I'm not complaining about this - Jackson is the best Nick Fury imaginable, and they absolutely should have cast him contract or no contract. It just illustrates that this is something he wanted enough to fight for, hard and smart.
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Ok, twice now this has happened. You made a post responding to mine defending the Spiderman switch on the grounds that people really don't like change, and then you proceed to say, "Here are a bunch of changes they've made, and I really like them!" Your logic is baffling to me, Jay13x.
Highroller, you keep confusing my subjective likes with the more conceptual idea of what 'the audience' likes, which is why you're so baffled. As for the rest, see below.
And why should he have to be Captain America? He's already Falcon! In my mind, giving up your own identity to take over someone else's is a demotion.
So, we're pretty clearly not going to agree on the other front, and that's okay. I'm really not the right person to explain it to you either. My point with the (Nigerian) Fiance is that I simply don't know what the experience is like (and I assume, neither do you), so when I made the same kinds of comments you have, it's because I don't get why it would be emotionally relevant to have one of your favorite characters be represented by someone who is more similar to you. For instance, I really like Luke Cage, but I'm never going to identify with the character in the same way I would Bruce Banner or Peter Parker, who've both got a lot more similarities to my life.
As for the Falcon, Captain America is more of a title. I know you're a big DC fan, but at Marvel the title isn't nearly as important as the person underneath. There have been like half a dozen Captain Americas, four or five Spider-men (a clone, a future guy, Doc Ock in Pete's Body, Miles and various others in different media), three or four Ant-men, three Thor's (with the actual name of Thor), etc. The superhero identity is considered to be more of a title than the individual's actual identity. And many heroes have taken on different identities and titles at various points, including Steve Rogers, Peter Parker, Hank Pym, Clint Barton (Hawkeye), etc. It's a big honor to be considered worth of being Captain America, or taking over for a storied character.
So, we're pretty clearly not going to agree on the other front, and that's okay. I'm really not the right person to explain it to you either. My point with the (Nigerian) Fiance is that I simply don't know what the experience is like (and I assume, neither do you), so when I made the same kinds of comments you have, it's because I don't get why it would be emotionally relevant to have one of your favorite characters be represented by someone who is more similar to you. For instance, I really like Luke Cage, but I'm never going to identify with the character in the same way I would Bruce Banner or Peter Parker, who've both got a lot more similarities to my life.
... What?
I've never been a vampire, an alien, a Achaean warrior, an immortal fairy tale character, a 13th century Italian, a god, a doctor, or a man whose parents were brutally murdered before his eyes as a child, yet I'm still able to identify with those characters.
And as I posted, probably editing it in while you were typing your post, this very attitude is what actually blocks minorities from roles in the first place.
I've never been a vampire, an alien, a Achaean warrior, an immortal fairy tale character, a 13th century Italian, a god, a doctor, or a man whose parents were brutally murdered before his eyes as a child, yet I'm still able to identify with those characters.
And as I posted, probably editing it in while you were typing your post, this very attitude is what actually blocks minorities from roles in the first place.
I think we're talking about two different things here. As I said, there is a difference between enjoying something and really identifying with something. Maybe I'm just not using the right words here. It isn't just a racial issue - I identify with classic Samurai movie characters and not with someone like Stallone (despite a similar background), but I still love some Stallone. The idea that the audience won't watch because of a minority lead or a minority cast has been pretty much proven as untrue in more recent years, it's old fossils in charge of the major studios that refuse to believe that those successes are more than flukes. But that also doesn't mean that people wouldn't like to non-WASPy experiences in their characters. Ms. Marvel proves that pretty resoundingly, and I really hope she sticks around. My wife loves it, because even though she isn't Muslim, the rest of the cultural experiences Kamala has could pretty much be her childhood.
But honestly, we're off on a couple different tangents, so why don't we just keep it to the specific idea of Miles Morales as a cinematic Spider-man, rather than Miles Morales worth as a character rather than these vague, general discussions where I feel like we're talking about two different things. I'm clearly really bad at getting my points across to you, Highroller, and I really don't want to start off a long weekend continuing to argue about this.
I think they've literally exhausted all possible superpower options for heroes that aren't (A) Completely overpowered to the point that a story isn't even worth telling. (B) Completely underpowered that any attempts to craft a story will seem completely farfetched.
Or, we could, y'know, recognize that superheroes are characters and not powersets and create a character.
No. They threw a Spiderman costume at him and went, "Look! Spiderman!" as though it were the only thing that made him Spiderman, and the whole "Not Peter Parker" thing were a trivial detail.
Which is absurd. If someone who isn't Clark Kent (or four people who aren't Clark Kent...) were to wear the Superman suit, even if he had the exact same kinds of powers, would it still be Superman? Or would the fundamental point of Superman be totally lost?
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But that also doesn't mean that people wouldn't like to non-WASPy experiences in their characters.
No, you're correct. And it's fine that people want that.
But I object to the idea that people cannot identify with people who are different from them. That's why Disney and Pixar are ******* amazing. I am neither female, nor blonde, nor Scandinavian, nor royalty, nor a sorceress. No one on this earth fits all of those categories, and many people don't fit any of them. Yet, there's a reason why Elsa is so compelling as a character. We can't relate to having magic, but we can relate to being afraid of showing who we are, because we don't believe we could ever be accepted. That's something universal.
Likewise, I've never been a children's toy, but I know what it's like to love someone to the point where I would never give up on them, even for the world, and so I can identify with Woody in Toy Story.
And we can go back to the list above. I don't know what it's like to be a vampire, but I know what it feels like to be fighting an uphill battle, to feel myself getting cynical and overwhelmed by the odds, like I'm against the world, but still believe that the fight is worth fighting for, and so I can relate to Blade and Angel.
I don't know what it's like to be an alien, but I know what it's like to not know who I am or where I belong. I know what it's like to love the world and the people in it, yet at the same time feel separated from them, apart, like even though I am among six billion people, I am truly alone in the world, and so I can relate to Superman.
But I object to the idea that people cannot identify with people who are different from them.
I apologize, I think this is our fundamental miscommunication. I never meant to say that (clearly I was trying to use identify in the wrong way - blame a long week and a lot of lack of sleep), only that sometimes it's easier to identify with someone who has a similar background. I more easily identify with Peter Parker and Bruce Banner because they both have elements of their backstory that strongly reflect my own life, not just because they're white. I don't identify as strongly with Luke Cage not because he's black, but because I've never lived in the city or faced the same kinds of problems he has, but even so I have a strong liking for Luke Cage as a character, even if I don't personally identify with him. Sometimes race IS part of that background, but sometimes that's just because of race as a stand in for cultural dynamics.
I should also note here that I grew up as a token white guy in my group of friends, which has skewed my perspective on this a lot. I have maybe four white friends IRL, and everyone else I hang out with outside of work is black or Middle Eastern/South Asian. And even with them, I'd say about half are interracial couples - so topics like this come up a lot, and even though they may like and even identify with heroes like Spider-man, Captain America and Captain Marvel, it's Falcon/Cap or Miles Morales Spider-man or Kamala Khan they're talking the most excited about.
I'll also say part of the reason I like Miles as a character so much is that he reminds me almost exactly of one of my best friends as a kid, who was himself a huge Spider-man fan - so when you insult Miles you're insulting my buddy, mister
Miles as Spider-Man would confuse the hell out of the average cinema goer. Remember in Dark Knight Rises when Dick/Terry told the secretary/whoever that his name was Robin and not Dick/Terry? Yeah, that was done for a real reason. The average person isn't going to be like "OH ***** HIS NAME IS DICK GREYSON HES ROBIN", it's going to go completely over their heads. I would wager that almost everyone in the seats at the Avenger's launch had no idea Nick Fury was white . If they change Peter Parker to Miles it's going to create a lot of confusion. It's not just a black peter park, it's a completely different character and while I would love to see Miles as Spider-Man I can pretty much guarantee that it is not going to happen.
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Remember in Dark Knight Rises when Dick/Terry told the secretary/whoever that his name was Robin and not Dick/Terry? Yeah, that was done for a real reason.
Yeah, because they didn't actually name him after a real character. In the movie, his name was John Blake. Although, naming him Terry would have been an AWESOME shout out to Batman Beyond.
In any case, it could be done, they'd just have to introduce Miles beforehand. I don't really think it'll happen, but the Sinister Six movie would be kind of perfect. Hell, they could have killed off Andrew Garfield's Spider-man there as well, rather than dropping him entirely.
But again, thinking it'd be neat and thinking it's going to happen are two very different things.
But again, thinking it'd be neat and thinking it's going to happen are two very different things.
This. I think what Miles Morales fans have to hope for is that whoever is cast as Peter Parker pulls an Edward Norton and bails out after a movie or two. (Legacy characters have this practical value in live-action movies that they don't in comics.)
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I like the mile morales black spider man costume its cool looking.
But what did come to mind was why does this Black person who is spider man need to be put in a Black costume?
Is this the artists way of saying "this spider man is black!"?
or, is there a missed miss silver lining of prejudice at work here?
the fact that the costume design is awesome, can only over shadow this so much.
maybe this isn't a discrepancy worthy of notice? just seemed odd to me when I first noticed it.
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But again, thinking it'd be neat and thinking it's going to happen are two very different things.
This. I think what Miles Morales fans have to hope for is that whoever is cast as Peter Parker pulls an Edward Norton and bails out after a movie or two. (Legacy characters have this practical value in live-action movies that they don't in comics.)
I must have forgotten to mention it earlier, but having 'trap door' characters for film franchises is always beneficial. They've already re-cast two major characters (Rhodey and Banner), and there will definitely be more as time goes on. It's clear marvel has this in mind, with what looks to be a rotating Avengers roster.
I like the mile morales black spider man costume its cool looking.
But what did come to mind was why does this Black person who is spider man need to be put in a Black costume?
Is this the artists way of saying "this spider man is black!"?
or, is there a missed miss silver lining of prejudice at work here?
the fact that the costume design is awesome, can only over shadow this so much.
maybe this isn't a discrepancy worthy of notice? just seemed odd to me when I first noticed it.
It's just an inverted Spider-man outfit, with the black lines made red and the red parts made black. It's kind of a cross between the Spider-man 2099 outfit (Miguel O'Hara) and Ben Reilly's Spider-man II outfit (Scroll down on the page, it isn't the one with the T-Shirt). Edit: On second thought, it's pretty clearly an inverted omage to the Ben Reilly Spider-man outfit. down to the 'finger gloves' look.
Miles Morales, at least in the Ultimate universe, was pretty careful to try and pay homage to Peter, but not to be mistaken for him by people in the know, hence the similar costume without being a copy
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What's more Morales has much more depth as to WHY he takes over the mantle than Bucky does, Bucky is all "well i can do everything he did and i have a badass metal arm so give me the star spangled shield/uniform".
@Blink: Actually Miles doesn't have the same power suit as Peter, he has similar attributes but the Strength/Agility is different, he also has the paralyzing sting and camouflage to compensate for lower str./agi. comparatively.
He doesnt get the webbing if i recall correctly unlike the Ultimate Spidey who had natural webbing and is dependent of the one he makes (like the old Spidey... but i cant recall if the fluid formula is something he knows how to make or was given to him...)
And yes i totally agree with you regarding barriers and identification...
Not really true, Marvel originally modeled Ultimate Nick AFTER SLJ, and then during one of the first comic issues have him pool a Deadpool by stating he would like Samuel L. Jackson to play him if they ever made a movie.
At no point did I said people can only identify with their own race. They all love Spider-man and the Avengers. I'm saying it's nice when they can point to a mainstream American black superhero that isn't a sidekick and has never been to prison.
Although, to be honest, my buddies fiancee (who is Nigerian) put it best when she told me that's an easy thing to say (identifying with heroes of other races) when you're in the majority.
I don't think we do either. Kamala Khan is a great example of new character with new Powers, and even though she's only kind-of a Legacy (Ms. Marvel), it's because she idolizes the older character, not that she is replacing her. Outside of the name she's a completely new character. Off the top of my head, I can think of Blue Marvel, Power Man (another Legacy character, but one that fuses Iron Fist and Luke Cage) or Sun Girl (who, amusingly and in a clever misdirection for most people's assumptions is the daughter of a white supervillain), and I like them all.
But that doesn't mean that we can't have interesting Legacy characters either. That's my issue here, that there is such pushback to a black character take over the role of Spider-man. The same thing happened with Sam Wilson taking over as Cap, despite Bucky doing the same thing like 5-6 years ago.
Out of curiosity, have you read the Miles Morales Ultimate Spider-man? He's definitely his own character which is why people like him. Maybe if he was just a 'black' Peter Parker I'd feel differently, but he stands up on his own. I'm always for giving them a chance before dismissing them. And they have a pretty good story reason for his Spider-bite. And as Sepirel said, he has a different power set with a similar spider-theme.
Agreed, but even Falcon suffers from backlash when he's moved to the forefront or takes over being Cap, despite numerous other characters having done so.
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You answered your own question. Morales was invented for Spiderman. It isn't about how to make a popular non-white superhero, with one of the options being to make him Spiderman. It's about what is best for the Spiderman brand, with one of the options being to replace Peter Parker with someone else (who in this case happens to be not white).
That would not surprise me at all. They could certainly use it to play into the whole "revealing your secret identity" aspect of Civil War by letting Spiderman keep his identity secret from even the audience. It's also possible they could go with Spiderman as Peter Parker in his initial appearances, and then at some point (maybe post-Civil War) have Morales take over.
That would not surprise me at all. They could certainly use it to play into the whole "revealing your secret identity" aspect of Civil War by letting Spiderman keep his identity secret from even the audience. It's also possible they could go with Spiderman as Peter Parker in his initial appearances, and then at some point (maybe post-Civil War) have Morales take over.[/quote]
Oh, absolutely. I would much prefer they didn't reveal his identity in Civil War, just be the centerpoint of the debate on whether or not he should.
It also leaves them free to wait on recasting.
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That's not putting it best - that's dismissive and unilluminating. (It also appears to be a reversal of the more common complaint that the majority can't understand what it's like to be a minority.) But she's not here to speak for herself, so maybe we're being unfair to her.
In my experience, a funny thing happens with kids when you add diversity to a cast of characters they watch. With an all-white cast, nonwhite kids can get the impression, "White is normal and I'm not white, so I can't identify with these characters because I'm not normal." But with a diverse cast, it seems to become something like "White and nonwhite are both normal, so I'm normal, so I can identify with any and all of these characters." Black kids happily pretend to be Wolverine and white kids happily pretend to be Storm. (Even the "Storm is a girl" thing, which would have been an utterly impassable barrier when I was that age, wayyy worse than race, seems to be starting to come down.) It's about normalization far more than identification.
I agree completely - I just decided that she hasn't yet stood the test of time enough to serve as an example here.
I mean, yeah, part of that is just gonna be racism, or whatever you call it when people get upset about "political correctness gone mad". But you do get pushback whenever a new character replaces an old one in the same identity. My own gut reaction to Dick Grayson or Terry McGinnis putting on the cowl is "They're cool in they're own right, but that's not Batman." I imagine if I was a Spidey or Cap fan I'd feel the same way about Bucky, Sam Wilson, and Miles Morales.
I haven't read any Miles Morales - and I haven't read much Peter Parker. I've been trying to restrict my comments to general issues of character identity. I will happily stipulate that Miles Morales qua Miles Morales is a unique and interesting character in his own right, just like Dick Grayson is a unique and interesting character in his own right. But he's using the Spider-Man name and wearing the Spider-Man costume in a comic with "Spider-Man" in the title. Marvel is selling him as Spider-Man. Why? Why not give him his own identity? (Rhetorical question - we both know the answer. I'm just saying they can do better.)
And why should he have to be Captain America? He's already Falcon! In my mind, giving up your own identity to take over someone else's is a demotion. (Superman: Future's End #1 explores this theme really well, with Billy Batson deciding whether to be Superman or Captain Marvel. Actually one of the best issues in the New 52, IMO.)
A reverse Iron Man - the twist is that he doesn't reveal where in the comics he did? I like it.
But my money is still on it being Parker in the end.
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Is there a non-infinite number of superheroes? Yes. Therefore, you can make a new one. Not that difficult. People do it all the time.
Or, we could, y'know, recognize that superheroes are characters and not powersets and create a character.
... No, they won't. Spiderman was Peter Parker. Taking a totally separate character and having him put on the Spiderman suit does not make him the same Spiderman. You even say he's not the same Spiderman later in your post. You can't have it both ways.
I am not in the majority and identify with heroes of other races all the time. So you're going to have to select another condescending platitude.
Moreover, what really bothers me about this attitude is it's an attitude that shuts minorities out of roles. There is a long-standing tradition of producers in Hollywood refusing minority actors on the grounds that audiences might not identify with or — I love this one — "be ready for" a minority leading man. I'm reading about how Bruce Lee constantly struggled against this, to the point of being turned down for the role of a Chinese kung fu expert because they weren't sure about how audiences would identify with a star of Chinese race. For a comic book-movie example, the movie Blade, as I understand it, had producers wary because there was question as to whether a black protagonist would have mainstream appeal. Hell, prior to Barack Obama's election, news media outlets clamored over whether or not America was ready for a black president.
Audiences have consistently demonstrated that they are more than capable of identifying with, and even welcoming, people of races other than themselves in the spotlight. Hell, foreign markets don't seem to have a problem with American protagonists judging by box office records.
Yet somehow this idea persists. Despite the reason for the lack of diversity that people are taking issue with largely stemming from people taking that very idea seriously and then applying it to the majority white male audience that is the consumer base of entertainment media. Ooops!
Ok, twice now this has happened. You made a post responding to mine defending the Spiderman switch on the grounds that people really don't like change, and then you proceed to say, "Here are a bunch of changes they've made, and I really like them!" Your logic is baffling to me, Jay13x.
But then why even bother with the similar spider theme? Why not just say, "Ok, here's this brand new character that's interesting, don't you want to read about him?"
Why make him Affirmative Action Spiderman instead of just having the character on his own merits?
It goes beyond that - when Marvel initially negotiated for likeness rights from Jackson, one of his terms was right of first refusal for any future appearances of Nick Fury in Marvel movies. Contractually, they had to let him be Fury, even if for some reason they'd want to have cast a white actor. And I'm not complaining about this - Jackson is the best Nick Fury imaginable, and they absolutely should have cast him contract or no contract. It just illustrates that this is something he wanted enough to fight for, hard and smart.
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So, we're pretty clearly not going to agree on the other front, and that's okay. I'm really not the right person to explain it to you either. My point with the (Nigerian) Fiance is that I simply don't know what the experience is like (and I assume, neither do you), so when I made the same kinds of comments you have, it's because I don't get why it would be emotionally relevant to have one of your favorite characters be represented by someone who is more similar to you. For instance, I really like Luke Cage, but I'm never going to identify with the character in the same way I would Bruce Banner or Peter Parker, who've both got a lot more similarities to my life.
As for the Falcon, Captain America is more of a title. I know you're a big DC fan, but at Marvel the title isn't nearly as important as the person underneath. There have been like half a dozen Captain Americas, four or five Spider-men (a clone, a future guy, Doc Ock in Pete's Body, Miles and various others in different media), three or four Ant-men, three Thor's (with the actual name of Thor), etc. The superhero identity is considered to be more of a title than the individual's actual identity. And many heroes have taken on different identities and titles at various points, including Steve Rogers, Peter Parker, Hank Pym, Clint Barton (Hawkeye), etc. It's a big honor to be considered worth of being Captain America, or taking over for a storied character.
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I've never been a vampire, an alien, a Achaean warrior, an immortal fairy tale character, a 13th century Italian, a god, a doctor, or a man whose parents were brutally murdered before his eyes as a child, yet I'm still able to identify with those characters.
And as I posted, probably editing it in while you were typing your post, this very attitude is what actually blocks minorities from roles in the first place.
But honestly, we're off on a couple different tangents, so why don't we just keep it to the specific idea of Miles Morales as a cinematic Spider-man, rather than Miles Morales worth as a character rather than these vague, general discussions where I feel like we're talking about two different things. I'm clearly really bad at getting my points across to you, Highroller, and I really don't want to start off a long weekend continuing to argue about this.
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...Isn't that what they did for Miles Morales?
Which is absurd. If someone who isn't Clark Kent (or four people who aren't Clark Kent...) were to wear the Superman suit, even if he had the exact same kinds of powers, would it still be Superman? Or would the fundamental point of Superman be totally lost?
No, you're correct. And it's fine that people want that.
But I object to the idea that people cannot identify with people who are different from them. That's why Disney and Pixar are ******* amazing. I am neither female, nor blonde, nor Scandinavian, nor royalty, nor a sorceress. No one on this earth fits all of those categories, and many people don't fit any of them. Yet, there's a reason why Elsa is so compelling as a character. We can't relate to having magic, but we can relate to being afraid of showing who we are, because we don't believe we could ever be accepted. That's something universal.
Likewise, I've never been a children's toy, but I know what it's like to love someone to the point where I would never give up on them, even for the world, and so I can identify with Woody in Toy Story.
And we can go back to the list above. I don't know what it's like to be a vampire, but I know what it feels like to be fighting an uphill battle, to feel myself getting cynical and overwhelmed by the odds, like I'm against the world, but still believe that the fight is worth fighting for, and so I can relate to Blade and Angel.
I don't know what it's like to be an alien, but I know what it's like to not know who I am or where I belong. I know what it's like to love the world and the people in it, yet at the same time feel separated from them, apart, like even though I am among six billion people, I am truly alone in the world, and so I can relate to Superman.
I could go on and on.
I should also note here that I grew up as a token white guy in my group of friends, which has skewed my perspective on this a lot. I have maybe four white friends IRL, and everyone else I hang out with outside of work is black or Middle Eastern/South Asian. And even with them, I'd say about half are interracial couples - so topics like this come up a lot, and even though they may like and even identify with heroes like Spider-man, Captain America and Captain Marvel, it's Falcon/Cap or Miles Morales Spider-man or Kamala Khan they're talking the most excited about.
I'll also say part of the reason I like Miles as a character so much is that he reminds me almost exactly of one of my best friends as a kid, who was himself a huge Spider-man fan - so when you insult Miles you're insulting my buddy, mister
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In any case, it could be done, they'd just have to introduce Miles beforehand. I don't really think it'll happen, but the Sinister Six movie would be kind of perfect. Hell, they could have killed off Andrew Garfield's Spider-man there as well, rather than dropping him entirely.
But again, thinking it'd be neat and thinking it's going to happen are two very different things.
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I like the mile morales black spider man costume its cool looking.
But what did come to mind was why does this Black person who is spider man need to be put in a Black costume?
Is this the artists way of saying "this spider man is black!"?
or, is there a missed miss silver lining of prejudice at work here?
the fact that the costume design is awesome, can only over shadow this so much.
maybe this isn't a discrepancy worthy of notice? just seemed odd to me when I first noticed it.
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It's just an inverted Spider-man outfit, with the black lines made red and the red parts made black. It's kind of a cross between the Spider-man 2099 outfit (Miguel O'Hara) and Ben Reilly's Spider-man II outfit (Scroll down on the page, it isn't the one with the T-Shirt). Edit: On second thought, it's pretty clearly an inverted omage to the Ben Reilly Spider-man outfit. down to the 'finger gloves' look.
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Miles Morales, at least in the Ultimate universe, was pretty careful to try and pay homage to Peter, but not to be mistaken for him by people in the know, hence the similar costume without being a copy