Hated this movie so much. This isn't Star Wars; this is some deluded fan creating glorified fanfiction. Get George Lucas involved as creative consultant or writer or something. This needs some direction, because all I saw was just a bad version of Episode 4.
Hated this movie so much. This isn't Star Wars; this is some deluded fan creating glorified fanfiction. Get George Lucas involved as creative consultant or writer or something. This needs some direction, because all I saw was just a bad version of Episode 4.
... Well Lucas directed the prequels. What'd you think of those?
Hey, what if the similarity to Episode 4 is because the writers wanted to keep the theme of awakenings and the ties of the force front and center? I mean, the main villain is a Vader Fanboy.
For Rey's use of mind tricks, that was justified by Kylo trying to force interogate her. While she was inexperienced, she could reverse the 'polarity' of the interogation. This infuriates Ren and he leaves. She then has some knowledge of how to use mind tricks, think learning how to control a new muscle. She then tries it on the stormtrooper and eventually succeeds.
It's just a bit too much imo to give her "raw power" in the force and then also have her learn that so quickly. What's the point in even saying her powers are raw if she can pick something up so easily and is so superior to Kylo and his soldiers? It's just not very good writing; the characterization is either unclear or Rey is a protagonist with no known flaws and no big potential for tension.
Luckily, Rey's status as protag of episode 7 is debatable, but I doubt that will be the case for future films.
It's not like luke ever had much training. When he force pulls his sabre he's had, what, half an hour's training from obiwan on the falcon? Up until the point luke meets Yoda, Rei has had roughly as much training. (MAybe more, as their is the implication she had some training as a child that she doesn't recall).
Also, look at the way Rey fights in the final scenes: she runs away and/or uses the saber like a fighting stick, and barely stands up to an already wounded Kylo. So she's strong, sure, but she's obviously not lightsaber trained. I'm hoping for a double-saber staff in episode 8.
And yeah, Luke never got half the grief I've seen Rey get.
Hated this movie so much. This isn't Star Wars; this is some deluded fan creating glorified fanfiction. Get George Lucas involved as creative consultant or writer or something. This needs some direction, because all I saw was just a bad version of Episode 4.
... Well Lucas directed the prequels. What'd you think of those?
The prequels (not counting episode 3, which is still the second best Star Wars movie behind empire) might be bad movies (and really only Episode 2; Episode 1 is merely above average, but that's not good enough for a Star Wars movie), but their narrative is the strongest and most intricate you'll find in a blockbuster movie franchise. That narrative—that plot, with its various themes—were all written and created by George Lucas. While he has failings as a director, he is godly as a writer.
So yes, he directed 3 movies aheadof their time, and I've no doubt he'd make the vapid, manufactured Disney movies actually have substance.
Episode 3 is a bad, bad movie. In fact, if attack of the clones didn't exist, episode 3 would have the joy of being easily the worst of the starwars live action movies.
It opens with a space combat scene that makes literally no sense. If the seperatists can get that much fleet above Coruscant essentially unhindered...the war is over.
The seperatists have the worst ship to ship combat weapons imaginable. If you can launch a cloud of crummy robots onto a fighter, instead of having they cut wires or whatever, consider making them just explode instead.
General grievous and count duuku both have the distinction of being *utterly useless* and also having just awful names.
Palpatine's plan for getting captured is largely incomprehensible. What exactly is his play here?
etc etc etc
Worse is Anakin's motivations are incomprehensible and weird. In the space of a few minutes he goes from 'the dark side is evil and I must get help against this clear sith lord' to 'this guy is BLATANTLY a sith and just murdered three jedi I MUST HELP HIM BECAUSE RAISINS"
And then they make Darth Vader, kick ass tough villian extraordinary into just a useless idiot. He never - in the whole trilogy- wins a fight against a Jedi older that 8 who wasn't told to let him win. That whole NOOOOOOOOOOO scene just makes him look like a whiny idiot.
You spent *six damn films* building up to Anakin falling to the dark side and THIS is how you play it?
Padme and Anakin have less the zero chemistry. He's a weird creepy stalker with the charisma of a cane toad("Sand is rough and awful, unlike you!").
Everything about episode 3 is dreadful - except the fight between Anakin and Obiwan - and that is massively over complicated and pretty dumb.
Hey, what if the similarity to Episode 4 is because the writers wanted to keep the theme of awakenings and the ties of the force front and center? I mean, the main villain is a Vader Fanboy.
Indeed.
Also it was massively successful the first time; so just some tweeks here, some updated things there, and BAM another hugely successful, and generally well received, much welcomed addition to the Star Wars universe.
I have virtually no qualms with this flick and thoroughly enjoyed it. Enough that I've seen it twice in the theater, which is rare for me to do.
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Episode 3 is a bad, bad movie. In fact, if attack of the clones didn't exist, episode 3 would have the joy of being easily the worst of the starwars live action movies.
Off to a good start.
It opens with a space combat scene that makes literally no sense. If the seperatists can get that much fleet above Coruscant essentially unhindered...the war is over.
The seperatists have the worst ship to ship combat weapons imaginable. If you can launch a cloud of crummy robots onto a fighter, instead of having they cut wires or whatever, consider making them just explode instead.
General grievous and count duuku both have the distinction of being *utterly useless* and also having just awful names.
Palpatine's plan for getting captured is largely incomprehensible. What exactly is his play here?
etc etc etc
1. Gee, you mean the same way the rebels were able to get into fighting distance of the death star? You'd think the base would be more protected! Or how the resistance can get into Starkiller Base's atmosphere? Absurd! How the Separatists got there is not a topic worth discussing, but you can see how that happens in the nifty 2003 clone wars cartoon. The movie itself makes it clear that the Separatists are desperate since the war had been going on for 3-4 years. From that context alone, it's clear this is a dangerous move for them.
2. Dude, it's a creative sci-fi weapon. It just is. Jedi could be using blasters and ***** instead of lightsabers. Palpatine could create a massive fleet instead of a moon-sized deathlaser that's just a huge target. It is what it is.
3. Palpatine orchestrated his capture because he knew Anakin and Obi-Wan would rescue him. Worst case scenario: Anakin and Obi-Wan die. If Anakin died, then he simply wasn't a worthy apprentice. Best case scenario: Anakin and Obi-Wan rescue him, in which case Anakin has been brought closer to him. He had Anakin execute Dooku when Dooku couldn't defend himself to pull him closer to the dark side, and wanted Anakin to abandon Obi-Wan on the ship. Only one of those things happened, but it was enough. You need to remember that Anakin is Palpatine's goal, along with becoming emperor.
Worse is Anakin's motivations are incomprehensible and weird. In the space of a few minutes he goes from 'the dark side is evil and I must get help against this clear sith lord' to 'this guy is BLATANTLY a sith and just murdered three jedi I MUST HELP HIM BECAUSE RAISINS"
Maybe they're incomprehensible to you because you've let the typical internet groupthink cloud your judgment.
It's hammered home in THREE movies that Anakin is driven by fear. He was AFRAID Windu would take away the only thing that could save his wife in killing Palpatine. He was AFRAID that if he didn't do what Palpatine ordered, then the secrets he needed to save his wife would never be made his. His motivation makes perfect sense when you pay attention and see the type of person Anakin is. He was afraid to leave his mother in episode 1, and then Episode 2 comes around and his fear becomes reality when she dies. That fear became anger, as Yoda often said, and he slaughtered the Tuskans (they deserved it, really). In Episode 3, he's afraid that what happened to his mother would also happen to Padme. He then goes to Yoda and asks his advice, and what does Yoda tell him? Typical Jedi BS about accepting that people die and be happy they're dead. Not acceptable. Meanwhile, Palpatine is telling him it IS possible.
You make it seem like Anakin gleefully did the things he did at the end of Episode 3. He didn't. The man was crying on Mustafar after he did everything Palpatine had ordered (slaughtered a bunch of children and elderly at the temple, and massacred the defenseless separatists).
And then they make Darth Vader, kick ass tough villian extraordinary into just a useless idiot. He never - in the whole trilogy- wins a fight against a Jedi older that 8 who wasn't told to let him win. That whole NOOOOOOOOOOO scene just makes him look like a whiny idiot.
How dare Lucas make the person that becomes Darth Vader actually vulnerable when the whole point of the character arc is he's ruled by his fear! How dare he!
You spent *six damn films* building up to Anakin falling to the dark side and THIS is how you play it?
Padme and Anakin have less the zero chemistry. He's a weird creepy stalker with the charisma of a cane toad("Sand is rough and awful, unlike you!").
Anakin and Padme are both highly sheltered kids, that got thrown into situations way above their emotional maturity. You think Anakin can be charming when he: 1) Spent 9 years as a slave 2) Spent 13 years as a Jedi? See, the Jedi Order makes you believe emotions are wrong, and will lead to the dark side. Not inherently false, but a bit extreme. Anakin would always come off as creepy because he has no experience dealing with his emotions because he's simply taught not to have them. Padme, meanwhile, is a sheltered senator that knows jack ***** about relationships. Maybe she truly loved him, and maybe she saw a sad, broken person that only she could help. Lucas' characters are nuanced enough to draw multiple interpretations from.
Everything about episode 3 is dreadful - except the fight between Anakin and Obiwan - and that is massively over complicated and pretty dumb.
How dare Lucas show two Jedi at the height of their power doing an impossible-by-normal-human standards sword fight to the death!
I find it hilarious how people say Lucas demystified the force (no, he really didn't), and then complain when he introduces a lot more mysticism to it.
Episode 3 is a bad, bad movie. In fact, if attack of the clones didn't exist, episode 3 would have the joy of being easily the worst of the starwars live action movies.
Off to a good start.
It opens with a space combat scene that makes literally no sense. If the seperatists can get that much fleet above Coruscant essentially unhindered...the war is over.
The seperatists have the worst ship to ship combat weapons imaginable. If you can launch a cloud of crummy robots onto a fighter, instead of having they cut wires or whatever, consider making them just explode instead.
General grievous and count duuku both have the distinction of being *utterly useless* and also having just awful names.
Palpatine's plan for getting captured is largely incomprehensible. What exactly is his play here?
etc etc etc
1. Gee, you mean the same way the rebels were able to get into fighting distance of the death star? You'd think the base would be more protected! Or how the resistance can get into Starkiller Base's atmosphere? Absurd! How the Separatists got there is not a topic worth discussing, but you can see how that happens in the nifty 2003 clone wars cartoon. The movie itself makes it clear that the Separatists are desperate since the war had been going on for 3-4 years. From that context alone, it's clear this is a dangerous move for them.
2. Dude, it's a creative sci-fi weapon. It just is. Jedi could be using blasters and ***** instead of lightsabers. Palpatine could create a massive fleet instead of a moon-sized deathlaser that's just a huge target. It is what it is.
3. Palpatine orchestrated his capture because he knew Anakin and Obi-Wan would rescue him. Worst case scenario: Anakin and Obi-Wan die. If Anakin died, then he simply wasn't a worthy apprentice. Best case scenario: Anakin and Obi-Wan rescue him, in which case Anakin has been brought closer to him. He had Anakin execute Dooku when Dooku couldn't defend himself to pull him closer to the dark side, and wanted Anakin to abandon Obi-Wan on the ship. Only one of those things happened, but it was enough. You need to remember that Anakin is Palpatine's goal, along with becoming emperor.
Worse is Anakin's motivations are incomprehensible and weird. In the space of a few minutes he goes from 'the dark side is evil and I must get help against this clear sith lord' to 'this guy is BLATANTLY a sith and just murdered three jedi I MUST HELP HIM BECAUSE RAISINS"
Maybe they're incomprehensible to you because you've let the typical internet groupthink cloud your judgment.
Curse, you've convinced me that my argument is wrong by telling me other people agree with me!
Also:
Further, Anakin is made witness to the leader of the Jedi, Mace Windu, going against the Jedi code in murdering Palpatine without due process. Anakin stood there and pleaded with him not to become a murderer, but Windu was going to go through with it. It is at that point that Anakin’s disenchantment with the Jedi becomes hate.
Did you even watch the scene? Mace isn't murdering Palpatine without due process - he is literally fighting for his life against someone who just *brutally* murdered 3 Jedi who were there to arrest him for his crimes - crimes that ANAKIN TOLD THEM about. I mean Palpatine is using force lightning against Windu, who is defending himself from it (and causing Palps some agony, no doubt) right up until the point chucklewit cuts his hands off.
Mace and the other Jedi tried to arrest him and take him to some kind of justice but the others got super dead. Newsflash, if you murder the space cops, they will defend themselves with lethal force of necessary.
Curse, you've convinced me that my argument is wrong by telling me other people agree with me!
Heeeeeeelarious. Maybe try to construct an argument rather than appeal to popularity. Because that's a non-argument. A nongument, if you will.
Also:
Did you even watch the scene? Mace isn't murdering Palpatine without due process - he is literally fighting for his life against someone who just *brutally* murdered 3 Jedi who were there to arrest him for his crimes - crimes that ANAKIN TOLD THEM about. I mean Palpatine is using force lightning against Windu, who is defending himself from it (and causing Palps some agony, no doubt) right up until the point chucklewit cuts his hands off.
Lol, uhm, no. I've watched Star Wars more times than most people, and have delved deeper into the Star Wars franchise than most people.
Firstly, what Anakin told him is he suspects Palpatine is the Sith Lord. As far as Anakin thought, that just means they'd arrest him
The scene goes thusly:
1. Windu brings along with him 3 other Jedi masters: Saese Tiin, Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar.
2. Windu says they're arresting him without any proof and without the support of the senate. Palpatine brings this up and then says he is the senate.
3. All four masters make it clear they're gonna kill him. Palpatine fights back and slays three of them in the blink of an eye.
4. Windu gets the better of Palpatine and by the end the old man is desperately using force lightning to try to stave off his attacked. Windu had him beat.
5. Anakin tells Windu that what he's doing isn't the Jedi way, but Windu assures him that Palpatine is too dangerous to be kept alive, as determined by Windu and not through due process.
No, bro, Windu messed up by going against what the Jedi code would dictate, even though his heart was in the right place. We may know Windu's heart is in the right place, but Anakin doesn't. All he sees is the Jedi being corrupt and about to take away from him the only chance he has to save his wife.
Newsflash, if you murder the space cops, they will defend themselves with lethal force of necessary.
If the space cops broke into my home, threatened to kill me and pulled out their weapons, I'd defend myself too. I'd super defend myself if one of them then says they're gonna kill me instead of making me stand trial.
I din't like this movie.It had WAy too many issues that distracted from my enjoyment.Might aswell list them:
CHARACTERS:
Rey
The actress wasn't abd but i have problems with the character.First she's too damm perfect, been good at everything and she was just a scanveger girl from a desert planet.I can udnerstand she has some knowledge of aprts but been able to fly the Millenium Falcon and knowing how to fix it better then Han Solo is very hard to believe.
Her mastery of the force, as lots of people pointed out, is rather BS.Other jedi had mutch more time to learn the arts of the Force.She knew nothing about jedis, thinking they were myths and yet she managed to:
-Counter Kylo Ren's mind reading(Yeah coutner someone more experincced then you, makes sense)
-Use Mind Trick powers to control the Storm trooper(How the hell she knew about this ability?)
-Force bend stronger then Kylo Ren to get the Light Saber
-Actually beat Kylo Ren in a Light Saber Duel becauser she "believes"
Don't give me the crap excuse that Kylo Ren was wounded and Emotionally Unstable that amde him lose because he had FAR more experience and power then both Rey and Finn and could have easilly used the force to kill them.I'll get back to kylo Ren later.
Luke had guidance from jedi Masters and he too mutch more time to learn about the Force.
Her character was also kinda anoying to me.These are minor issues but still bothered me like she had an angry constipated look for most of the movie.Scenes like she getting angry at Finn holding her hand to escape the atatcks in Jakku she got angry and acting like "I'm a strong independent Woman, don't touch me".It felt forced.Her bonding to the litle droid was weird aswell because he's jsut a robot and i would have sold him for food in an instant.Maybe thats just me and im a heartless bastard so this is really nitpicking.
Overral i wasn't sold on her character and she felt way too perfect to make it believeble.
Finn
This character is bafling to me as tow how out of place he is.I actually like the idea of a Storm trooper defecting and showing that they are more human then just fodder for the main characters.The problem is that it wasn't expended on.It had a promosing start with Finn having a breakdown when his friend? died and bleed on him and with the massacre of the villagers.
I assumed the movie would expand on his inner conflict between his loyalty to the First Order and him been agaisnt but NOPE!!!
He just got scared of it and gave a 180 turn and betrayed the organization,wich he grew on and basically spending most of his life serving in a military enviorement bonding with his fellow soldiers and following the Order for years.Afetr leaving the Order he had no qualms in killing his fellow soldies like BACKSTTABING one of them in the back and feeling nothing.He decided to help Poe escape was strange because eh din't knew him and if he was trully scared he would have elft alone without risking everythig for someone he din't knew.Maybe he needed a pilot so i guess he rescued Poe for that so ill give it a pass.
His actions looked more from someone from the Rebels that infiltrated the Order.Actually would make more sense based on his actions like saving Poe, Getting excited for shooting down the Storm Troopers, feeling nothing for STABBING on the back of one one them troopers and basically having no feeling for them.
Also his backstory is confusing in that it was said that he was an Elite Trooper?How can he be one if he worked as Janitor and never had a mission before?I guess Elite Trooper are those that can actually hit someone.
For someone that grew in a military inviroment he had really strange lines like asking Rey if she had a boyfriend?WHAT?!Why would you ask someone you just met that?I understand if it was Han Solo from his younger days but not a SOLDIER.Finn was giving vibes as he was worth comedy relief with silly anticts.
I think Finn shouldn't have been a Storm trooper but a Rebel that infiltrated the Empire, that would have made mroe sense to his character and actions.
Poe
He's alright i guess but he ahd some hicupps like him miraclouslly surviving Jakku and showing up fine in the Rebel's base but thats not really part of his character.I'm jsut wondering what will be the importance of his character in the future.
Kylo Ren
oh boy what a disapointing character.A Darth Vader fanboy will be Rey's rival then.He had a promosing start tough with stoping a Lazer blast with the force and been a scondroul killing the villagers.Good setup for the villain been powerfull and ruthless.But then overtime you saw that he was quite whinny and had anger temptrums.ok ok i cans ee it been part of The Dark Side motife been a young Sith in training.So he captured Rey and he left saying that they din't need the droid?Wasn't he the one obcessed with the droid?I know that he can read mind but i think that someone so desperate for finding Luke he would go after the droid just in case.Maybe the Rebel's coutner atatck was too voerwhelming so it was safer to escape i guess.
Now finally for his face reveal during his interrogation and man was it underwhelming.I guess it was to show that even an everage Joe looking eprson can be a dangerous monster but here it din't work because of the scene.I think it was played for jokes because of rey's reaction.Also whats the point of the mask?So he looks edgy jsut like his grandaddy?He really gave alot of vibes of a whinny Darth Vader fanboy that was going through his edgy phase.
They made it like Kylo Ren was in conflict been draged to the Light Side of the force but kinda hard to believe when brutally mudered an elderlly Man, ordered to kill civilians, Chocking an officer,implied tortured a prisoner and downright been an ********.Agaisnt it was to make hi DEEP or soemthing like that.Forcefully making him have a redemption scene in the future.
Kylo ren should have revealed his face for the first time when confronting his father in the WORLD's MOST OBVIOUS DEATH SCENE.It would have made more impact and would have given less laughs and actually make the scene more impactfull.
It din't help him when the writers made him get screwed by the main characters to make them look good by giving Ren a wound to make an excuse for his loss to Rey.BTW how the hell survived Chebacka's blast shot?That thing sent Troopers flying and yet Ren tanked it?I don't remember The Force giving you resistance to blaster shots.
I'm tired of writing some of the problems of the movie so ill do it later.BTW this is my opinion and why im sayingg the movie's problems.It had way too many flaws stacked that really distracted me from my enjoyment.
Rey is a mary sue. She's as flat and phoned in as everything in this movie. The only triumphs Luke has in the original movies are blowing up the death star and saving Vader (and this last one he accomplishes by LOSING and being at the Emperor's mercy). Luke's a loser, an underdog, and that's what makes him so compelling. Rey just has instant mastery over anything she does, and every character in earshot has to acknowledge how special and great she is.
Finn is the closest to being a relatable character, but the writing wouldn't dare address the elephant in the room as it regards to him (i.e. killing hundreds of troopers when just one trooper dying before messed him up).
Kylo is the character that annoyed me the most during the movie, leading up to the movie and right after seeing the movie. It was only after about a week of thinking about the other characters did Rey and Poe surpass him in annoyance.
Firstly, I’m not making an appeal to popularity. I’m pointing out that you’re making an argumentum ad hipsterum – that your argument is correct because most people don’t agree with you, and that I clearly only hold my views because other people do. Newsflash: I’ve held most of these views from the first time I saw it in the cinema.
1. Windu brings along with him 3 other Jedi masters: Saese Tiin, Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar.
2. Windu says they're arresting him without any proof and without the support of the senate. Palpatine brings this up and then says he is the senate.
3. All four masters make it clear they're gonna kill him. Palpatine fights back and slays three of them in the blink of an eye.
4. Windu gets the better of Palpatine and by the end the old man is desperately using force lightning to try to stave off his attacked. Windu had him beat.
5. Anakin tells Windu that what he's doing isn't the Jedi way, but Windu assures him that Palpatine is too dangerous to be kept alive, as determined by Windu and not through due process.
I just don’t understand why you think that is what happened (as it blatantly isn’t). Wait, that's not true - your first point is correct, or at least those irrelevant apparently Jedi Masters probably have names, and those are probably the names they have.
There is no evidence to support the claim they are doing this with the intention of just murdering palpatine. Or that they don't have evidence.
I don’t mean it’s an odd interpretation: I mean there it is significantly unsupported by the actual movie.
2) Mace says “In the name of the galactic senate of the republic,you're under arrest, Chancellor” and draw their weapons. While moderately hostile, it’s not unreasonable when approaching a suspect believed to be armed and dangerous. (See: Ever cop show ever)
3) "Are you threatening me Master Jedi" says palps. "The senate will decide your fate" says Mace Windu, quite clearly and obviously intending to arrest him and have him tried by the Senate.
3) Palpatine says “I am the senate” in an extremely hostile voice
4) Mace says “Not yet.”
That’s the entire conversation before palpatine declares it treason (which it patently isn't) and attacks. Drawing *any* conclusion other than ‘we’re here to arrest some super dangerous dude’ is irrational.
Then Palps attacks. He murders the hell out of 2 supposed Jedi masters instantly and kit fisto after about a three seconds of combat.
Then, after beating him, Mace swiftly murders him. Oh wait, no...he tries to arrest him some more. Then Sid claims to Anakin, who has just entered the room (in time for that last line of mace's), that the Jedi are taking over. Mace - more than reasonably - responds "The oppression of the sith is over, and you have lost"
Then Darth Sid starts throwing force lightning. As far we can tell from the primary sources (IE the movies) force lightning is SUPER dark side. And everyone knows it. And the emperor isn't "Using for lighting to fend off Windu's attacks" - he's trying to kill him! Granted, he is *awful* at it and should have stopped shooting the lightning bolts that were reflected back into his face before he did, but...come one, be serious.
Anakin does, it's true, tell Mace it's not the Jedi way, but I would describe that as errant bull***** that Anakin knows is errant bull*****.
Remember, they *do* have strong evidence that someone close to Palps is a sith lord, who has been amassing power in an effort take over the galaxy. Said sith has orchestrated that has cost countless millions of lives (and the lives of more than a few Jedi). They’ve got strong evidence this person is *extremely* force-powerful. And they’ve got evidence from an extremely trustworthy witness – a member of the god-damn council – that the sith ******** is so overconfident he damn nearly confessed to being the sith lord! Plus the whole he just murdered three Jedi, and uses force lightning, and is clearly a Sith Lord.
This isn’t necessarily enough evidence to *convict* but it is more than enough evidence to arrest someone.
Yes, at the end of the fight palps pretends to be helpless.
He is, however, clearly not. (witness: he still fires a *****load of force lightning at mace windu as soon as the coast is clear).
At this point, Mace realises that arrest just isn’t a valid option. As Mace states, the emperor is – literally – too dangerous to be allowed to live. You couldn’t imprison him, or put him on trial – he’s probably powerful enough to mind control his way out of either, with anyone less than him or Yoda pretty much. Also, It’s pretty damn obvious that he is Darth Sid, and that he’s orchestrated a straight-up coup against the republic and murdered millions or billions.
What do you think Windu should do?
On Rey: Please. She’s no more over-capable thank luke. Or Anakin.
And the idea he ‘only succeeds twice in the OT’ – get real. He flies an x-wing with literally zero training and is either the best or second best pilot. He mans the Falcon’s gunnery station despite never having *seen* it and is as good as han who owns the damn ship. He’s an incredible shot with a blaster despite having never been in a fight in his life.
More or less literally the only thing he isn’t perfect at on the first attempt in ANH is fighting the tiny robo-droids in the training on the falcon.
Then we have empire in which yea, he gets beat – although it’s the middle act of a story and that is, you know, how stories work – and he still takes down more ATATs than the entire rest of the rebel army.
Then in Jedi, he sets up a super complex plan, beats a rancor while unarmed, beats all of Jabba’s men, landspeeder fights despite never having been on one, and beats Vader in a sabre fight. Among other things.
And during all of this time, the entire duration of his training by Jedi is about 5 minutes in ANH and a couple of days or a week in empire.
Similarly, in Menace, Anakin build C3P0 with no apparent real training (repairing a droid is pretty different to building a brand new one and teaching it six million languages somehow), then wins the big podrace, which no human has ever done before (and I have a recollection that he had either never been in a real one or never finished - I could be wrong). Then he gets in a starfighter - in which he somehow not only takes off, but is the best pilot ever and blows up the droid control ship.
so...that.
Also, red gauntlet:
Quite aside from the fact that it's force pull, not bend, you say
Don't give me the crap excuse that Kylo Ren was wounded and Emotionally Unstable that amde him lose because he had FAR more experience and power then both Rey and Finn and could have easilly used the force to kill them.I'll get back to kylo Ren later.
and then
It din't help him when the writers made him get screwed by the main characters to make them look good by giving Ren a wound to make an excuse for his loss to Rey.BTW how the hell survived Chebacka's blast shot?That thing sent Troopers flying and yet Ren tanked it?I don't remember The Force giving you resistance to blaster shots.
Firstly, I’m not making an appeal to popularity. I’m pointing out that you’re making an argumentum ad hipsterum – that your argument is correct because most people don’t agree with you, and that I clearly only hold my views because other people do. Newsflash: I’ve held most of these views from the first time I saw it in the cinema.
Lol what?
To avoid getting into pointless semantics as it concerns ancient greek debate terms, I'll just get to the point.
Me: "You're making internet groupthink cloud your judgment. Here's why."
You: "EVERYONE AGREES WITH ME DOE!"
See the issue?
I don't care about this though since it doesn't actually have anything to do with the point being made. If you feel like I'm being hipster trash, then so be it. Let's move on to the real discussion, shall we?
I just don’t understand why you think that is what happened (as it blatantly isn’t). Wait, that's not true - your first point is correct, or at least those irrelevant apparently Jedi Masters probably have names, and those are probably the names they have.
What I described is exactly what happened. I've watched Revenge of the Sith four times since The Force Awakens premiered.
There is no evidence to support the claim they are doing this with the intention of just murdering palpatine. Or that they don't have evidence.
I don’t mean it’s an odd interpretation: I mean there it is significantly unsupported by the actual movie.
Uhm, what?
1. "He is too dangerous to be kept alive." Windu has it in his head that they're gonna murder the old man.
2. The Jedi activate their lightsabers BEFORE he even does anything.
3. What possible evidence would they have? Palpatine has never shown himself to be able to do anything with the force, nobody knows he has a lightsaber and the Jedi can't even SENSE him. There is no proof he is a Sith Lord at all in the movies. It's explained time and time again that a shroud has been placed on the force by the sith and that the Jedi, as a result, have lost much of their connection to the force. The only thing Windu's going on is Anakin guessing that Palpatine is Darth Sidious, and that may be motivated by the fact that Palpatine has been in office WAY longer than he should've been.
2) Mace says “In the name of the galactic senate of the republic,you're under arrest, Chancellor” and draw their weapons. While moderately hostile, it’s not unreasonable when approaching a suspect believed to be armed and dangerous. (See: Ever cop show ever)
3) "Are you threatening me Master Jedi" says palps. "The senate will decide your fate" says Mace Windu, quite clearly and obviously intending to arrest him and have him tried by the Senate.
3) Palpatine says “I am the senate” in an extremely hostile voice
4) Mace says “Not yet.”
That’s the entire conversation before palpatine declares it treason (which it patently isn't) and attacks. Drawing *any* conclusion other than ‘we’re here to arrest some super dangerous dude’ is irrational.
Oh good, you have actually watched the movie!
To your point, no, and see why above. Let me add that in said scene Windu says Palpatine controls the courts and the senate. He knew going in that having him stand trial was not gonna achieve what they wanted.
Further, I've been saying since the start that this is how Anakin perceives what is happening. The thing you quoted from my blog, it's about how Anakin views the Jedi.
1. Windu and the three members of the Jedi council hastily go about getting to Palpatine.
2. Windu isn't taking Anakin along for the ride. Shady.
3. Anakin arrives to see Windu have Sidious pinned.
It should be stressed that I'm not saying Sidious ain't an evil bastard, because he is (and that's why I love him), and the Jedi are totally right for trying to murder him, BUT that goes against the Jedi Code and apparently judicial law since Windu's electing to say "Screw the senate" with the whole "He's too dangerous to be kept alive" thing.
Then, after beating him, Mace swiftly murders him. Oh wait, no...he tries to arrest him some more. Then Sid claims to Anakin, who has just entered the room (in time for that last line of mace's), that the Jedi are taking over. Mace - more than reasonably - responds "The oppression of the sith is over, and you have lost"
No, he doesn't try to arrest him. Again, what I said above. He's gonna kill him.
Then Darth Sid starts throwing force lightning. As far we can tell from the primary sources (IE the movies) force lightning is SUPER dark side. And everyone knows it. And the emperor isn't "Using for lighting to fend off Windu's attacks" - he's trying to kill him! Granted, he is *awful* at it and should have stopped shooting the lightning bolts that were reflected back into his face before he did, but...come one, be serious.
No, Windu has him pinned and he has no other course of action available to him. And again, that's how Anakin would perceive it as well (but this time his perception is reality).
Also, yes, Force Lightning is a sith-only ability. Palpatine being a sith isn't a question to Anakin. Palpatine has to live and teach him how to do the thing Darth Plagueis did, and that's why he has to be taken alive. Also, the jedi way is in agreement with him that a tired old man that can no longer defend himself should be taken alive. Windu clearly wants to kill him. That is both in opposition to Anakin's goal of saving Padme and the jedi code that he believes in.
Anakin does, it's true, tell Mace it's not the Jedi way, but I would describe that as errant bull***** that Anakin knows is errant bull*****.
No, Anakin clearly believes in it. Every time he does something not Jedily, he admonishes himself for it. The kid is filled with self-loathing, because that's what the Jedi taught him to do. Even though his slaughter of the Tuskans was justified, he was still torn up over having done it in Episode 2. When he has Dooku pinned in Episode 3, he wanted to kill him, but he resisted until Palpatine prodded him to.
Remember, they *do* have strong evidence that someone close to Palps is a sith lord, who has been amassing power in an effort take over the galaxy. Said sith has orchestrated that has cost countless millions of lives (and the lives of more than a few Jedi). They’ve got strong evidence this person is *extremely* force-powerful. And they’ve got evidence from an extremely trustworthy witness – a member of the god-damn council – that the sith ******** is so overconfident he damn nearly confessed to being the sith lord! Plus the whole he just murdered three Jedi, and uses force lightning, and is clearly a Sith Lord.
This isn’t necessarily enough evidence to *convict* but it is more than enough evidence to arrest someone.
No. The only "evidence" they have comes from Dooku, who is the leader of the Separatists that they've been in a literal war with for 4 years. Next, they have the testimony of a Jedi. Do you see the problem there?
What was Palpatine's most significant talking point when he addressed the senate? That the Jedi were trying to overthrow the senate. We know this is something he's been setting up for literally decades (see: clones on Kamino and the whole Syfo Dias subplot from Episode 2). If they took him into custody, all he has to do is say "The Jedi barged into my office and arrested me! They have no evidence, and they're trying to take over! Order 66!"
Now you may be wondering if that's the case why he didn't just let himself be captured by Windu and the other 3 and the answer is clear there too: he needs Anakin to become his apprentice. If he went with the get captured option, Anakin would probably be killed with the rest of the Jedi.
Yes, at the end of the fight palps pretends to be helpless.
He is, however, clearly not. (witness: he still fires a *****load of force lightning at mace windu as soon as the coast is clear).
Yes, he throws force lightning at Windu while he's distracted by getting his arm cut off and just lost his only defense against force lightning. If Anakin wasn't in the room, he'd be dead.
At this point, Mace realises that arrest just isn’t a valid option. As Mace states, the emperor is – literally – too dangerous to be allowed to live. You couldn’t imprison him, or put him on trial – he’s probably powerful enough to mind control his way out of either, with anyone less than him or Yoda pretty much. Also, It’s pretty damn obvious that he is Darth Sid, and that he’s orchestrated a straight-up coup against the republic and murdered millions or billions.
The "mind trick" only works on the weak-minded, and if Palpatine was to attempt that with actual Jedi presiding over the case, he'd be found out immediately. The real issue is Palpatine has control over the senate and the judicial system. Windu knows this, and knew this going in.
What do you think Windu should do?
Windu was in the right. He did everything right. There is no taking a sith lord alive. BUT as far as Anakin's concerned, he did everything wrong, and that's the important part.
On Rey: Please. She’s no more over-capable thank luke. Or Anakin.
Also, Anakin is supposed to be perfect. He's Force Jesus. At least in Episode 1. By Episodes 2 and 3 he has so many flaws you begin to wonder how he's supposed to be the hero (he isn't; he's the protagonist of "Star Wars Episode _", while Luke is the hero of "Star Wars Episode _").
One of the worst things about Rey is there's nothing left for her to learn. There is no growth left, and when they try to say there is, it will be an outright lie. What the hell can Luke teach her when she's done everything he did in the first 3 movies, but better? She beat his best damn student despite being smaller than him and having had no prior lightsaber knowledge or force training.
And the idea he ‘only succeeds twice in the OT’ – get real. He flies an x-wing with literally zero training and is either the best or second best pilot. He mans the Falcon’s gunnery station despite never having *seen* it and is as good as han who owns the damn ship. He’s an incredible shot with a blaster despite having never been in a fight in his life.
He did well with the gun because all he's doing is pointing and shooting. Heightened reflexes have consistently been something attributed to people particularly gifted with the Force. Rey is unlike Luke in this regard because as far as the movie's concerned she's never flown anything and has TECHNICAL KNOWLEDGE of the ship to a greater degree than the person that owned it for years. Luke can point and click a ship's guns, but I doubt he'd be able to fix them if they broke down. Rey could do that and more.
More or less literally the only thing he isn’t perfect at on the first attempt in ANH is fighting the tiny robo-droids in the training on the falcon.
Then we have empire in which yea, he gets beat – although it’s the middle act of a story and that is, you know, how stories work – and he still takes down more ATATs than the entire rest of the rebel army.
The first chunk of the movie is devoted to Han rescuing him. He spends the middle of the movie failing Yoda's lessons. He spends the last third of the movie getting his ass kicked by daddy.
Then in Jedi, he sets up a super complex plan, beats a rancor while unarmed, beats all of Jabba’s men, landspeeder fights despite never having been on one, and beats Vader in a sabre fight. Among other things.
In RotJ, his plan goes awry and he and everyone else wing it. How is it a victory that he was able to beat up a rancor? He's a fully-trained Jedi and SHOULD be able to do that much. If we're counting useless muggle wins, then Rey beat up those trained First Order soldiers at the start of the movie despite having no training whatsoever, and beats Kylo Ren later despite having absolutely no training.
And during all of this time, the entire duration of his training by Jedi is about 5 minutes in ANH and a couple of days or a week in empire.
Better than no training at all!
Similarly, in Menace, Anakin build C3P0 with no apparent real training (repairing a droid is pretty different to building a brand new one and teaching it six million languages somehow), then wins the big podrace, which no human has ever done before (and I have a recollection that he had either never been in a real one or never finished - I could be wrong). Then he gets in a starfighter - in which he somehow not only takes off, but is the best pilot ever and blows up the droid control ship.
That's because the point of Anakin in ANH is that he's literally force Jesus. Virgin birth, unconditionally good etc. He's infuriating in how perfect he is, and even though that's the point, everyone hated it. Is Rey so awful that you're using ANH Anakin to justify her?
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Finally, this bit doesn't really matter, but I can't leave it unaddressed:
He murders the hell out of 2 supposed Jedi masters instantly and kit fisto after about a three seconds of combat.
They're masters, but Palpatine is just better. Nobody would take issue with this if it was Yoda that took out three Jedi. Palpatine is dark side Yoda, and even stronger since he beat the actual Yoda. He's also at least the strongest sith in a thousand years.
I seriously don't know why you guys are so sure about Rey's past.
She doesn't remember her past. Her past is not showcased in the movie. It's a known in the plot and it has to be treated as such. In fiction when holes are left open they are meant for viewers to speculate until the truth is revealed (or not, in that case people will pass decade speculating). This is part of the fun. But for some reason some SW fans have this strange habit of self-imposed literal understanding of things (only take in consideration what the canon down right shows you and not the possibilities it creates). So there's as much reason to believe she is trained as to believe she isn't (both are just uncertain possibilities).
Despite this utter lack of imagination, there are still some Rey facts that are being missed:
Rey is trained in melee combat. It doesn't matter how it happened, when it happened or why she is trained - she knows how to fight since the beginning of the movie. Any assumptions that she has zero combat training is objectively wrong.
Her combat training and scavenger background does not contradict each other. She lives in a lawless region and move merchandise to survive, it's not uncommon for that kind of people to know how to fight.
It's not impossible according to SW cannon for Force users to be self-taught. It's actually a fact that being self-taught in the ways of the force are easier then in mathematics or learning another language (something that actually happens in the real world all the time). That's because all the force sensitives, even the untrained ones, have inhuman intuition allowing then to perform acts without any previews training or knowledge. This is why Anakin is what he is - and all force sensitives are like this to a smaller degree.
If anything the biggest contradiction of all SW is how Luke is suppose to be the greatest force sensitive of all times while showing no talent at all for the thing - unlike Anakin, Leia and Rey (the three other untrained force sensitives we see in the movies). The explanation for this is probably because GL changed his mind on how the force works between ANH and the later movies. So the elephant in the room is why Luke is such a big underdog and not why Rey isn't.
Rey beating Kylo Ren or using Force Suggestion on a storm trooper is no way less believable then Luke beating Vader. The fact is, Rey knows how to fight and should be close to Anakin in terms of inherent force sensitiveness while fighting a opponent that is trained but not graduated, had been pretty badly injured (twice) and which force sensitiveness we know from the film is smaller then Rey's. Luke beating Vader is absolutely bonkers unbelievable. He just got beaten horribly by Vader in TESB and he did no significant training or progress between the two fights. And Luke in terms of training should be as experienced as a Padawan while Vader is 'force Jesus' with beyond Jedi master level of training. The only possible explanation is that Vader didn't fought seriously and was actually just 'training' Luke.
Similarly, in Menace, Anakin build C3P0 with no apparent real training (repairing a droid is pretty different to building a brand new one and teaching it six million languages somehow), then wins the big podrace, which no human has ever done before (and I have a recollection that he had either never been in a real one or never finished - I could be wrong). Then he gets in a starfighter - in which he somehow not only takes off, but is the best pilot ever and blows up the droid control ship.
That's because the point of Anakin in ANH is that he's literally force Jesus. Virgin birth, unconditionally good etc. He's infuriating in how perfect he is, and even though that's the point, everyone hated it. Is Rey so awful that you're using ANH Anakin to justify her?
It matters not if people liked it or not. Anakin and his infuriating perfection is part of the canon and it sets the stage for what a untrained Jedi is - someone with inhuman intuition.
And imo Rey IS Anakin done right. And It worked fairly well for me.
If you're replying to me, hit the reply button, otherwise I won't see it. This can't be that hard to get.
I won't quote each bit of your post since that'll make this overly lengthy.
1. All of your arguments boil down to "wait for them to explain it," but that's not how movies work. I shouldn't have to wait 2 years and pay $20 more to get BASIC answers to things.
2. I can believe Batman is a Lovecraftian tentacle monster masquerading as a man and you literally cannot prove me wrong. Doesn't mean it's a logical at all belief to hold. Rey is presented as not knowing how to Force, so why should I assume she's some super badass force-user that just forgot?
3. There have been force-sensitives in the EU that have never been trained a day in their life, yes that is true. Most of them go their entire lives without ever using the force, instead getting by on heightened intuition and reflexes (take, for example, Roan Shryne's mother or Granta Omega). Then there's some force-sensitives who can use force pushes and pulls by tapping into raw emotion (take, for example, a young Galen Marek or Savage Opress). Do you know what all these people have in common though? They're no match for actually trained force-users. Kylo Ren is Luke's best student, AND a Skywalker, and he lost to a novice.
4. You're incorrect. Luke left Tatooine at 19 years old. In Return of the Jedi he was 23. He took 4 years to move from not even knowing what the Force was to Master-level skill. Remember that the typical Jedi has to train all their life for that. There is no contradiction.
5. Rey beating Kylo is nothing at all like Luke beating Vader. We know Vader had no intention of killing Luke, we know Luke had to use his anger to triumph over Vader, and most of all, we know Luke had 4 years of training under his belt by the time he fought Vader on the second Death Star. There was ready. Yoda said Luke was ready. Obi-Wan said Luke was ready. Not even comparable to Rey.
6. You clearly misread what I said. Using child Anakin's perfection as a defense for Rey is counterproductive when arguing for a movie's quality. Kid Anakin's perfection was a point of contention for many, EVEN THOUGH IT MADE SENSE BECAUSE HE'S LITERALLY FORCE JESUS.
7. Rey isn't at all Anakin done right. Anakin wasn't done wrong. George Lucas told the story of a kid that was never in control of his destiny—a kid that wanted to help people but got manipulated by others his whole life. Rey, in comparison, is just a perfect, devoid-of-flaws or failures "badass".
So why is it unbelievable that Rey could beat Kylo when he spends the entire fight shot through the chest and also he's not trying to kill her because he wants an apprentice?
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If you're replying to me, hit the reply button, otherwise I won't see it. This can't be that hard to get.
I won't quote each bit of your post since that'll make this overly lengthy.
1. All of your arguments boil down to "wait for them to explain it," but that's not how movies work. I shouldn't have to wait 2 years and pay $20 more to get BASIC answers to things.
I'm not sure why you feel entitled to decide on how movies should work. All I can say is I have no issue with this sort of mystery - it's made pretty obvious that Rey's cloudy past will be explored in the upcoming episodes.
2. I can believe Batman is a Lovecraftian tentacle monster masquerading as a man and you literally cannot prove me wrong. Doesn't mean it's a logical at all belief to hold. Rey is presented as not knowing how to Force, so why should I assume she's some super badass force-user that just forgot?
If batman randomly started to take down people with tentacle powers you would have reasons to.
In Rey's case...
3. There have been force-sensitives in the EU that have never been trained a day in their life, yes that is true. Most of them go their entire lives without ever using the force, instead getting by on heightened intuition and reflexes (take, for example, Roan Shryne's mother or Granta Omega). Then there's some force-sensitives who can use force pushes and pulls by tapping into raw emotion (take, for example, a young Galen Marek or Savage Opress). Do you know what all these people have in common though? They're no match for actually trained force-users. Kylo Ren is Luke's best student, AND a Skywalker, and he lost to a novice.
Except that Kylo Ren is not a fully trained force user. It's said over and over during the movie that his training is not finished yet - which could mean he is not a master but much more likely means, due his little age and the fact that Knights no longer 'train', that his not even a Knight. Even his lightsaber is crude as a means to show case his inexperience (remember how Vader compliments Luke when he see how good the lightsaber he made is). So a incredibly sensitive force wielder with no Jedi training but plenty of martial training beating a severely wounded "Padawan" that was not fighting for real ? Not that unbelievable.
The powers of a untrained force wielder can go beyond that. Just to use a movie example, Leia who has no training sense disturbance in the force during RotJ.
4. You're incorrect. Luke left Tatooine at 19 years old. In Return of the Jedi he was 23. He took 4 years to move from not even knowing what the Force was to Master-level skill. Remember that the typical Jedi has to train all their life for that. There is no contradiction.
The contradiction is if Luke is so talented in order to become a Jedi master in so little time and with so little exposure to Jedi discipline (he actually passed relatively little time with Obi Wan and Yoda) why is that he shows no particular force powers before his training - like all the other untrained force sensitive characters in the movie ? And I'm not even using stuff from the EU here.
5. Rey beating Kylo is nothing at all like Luke beating Vader. We know Vader had no intention of killing Luke, we know Luke had to use his anger to triumph over Vader, and most of all, we know Luke had 4 years of training under his belt by the time he fought Vader on the second Death Star. There was ready. Yoda said Luke was ready. Obi-Wan said Luke was ready. Not even comparable to Rey.
Kylo has no intention of killing Rey either.
Rey uses her superior connection to the force to beat him (which is far more fitting for a Jedi).
Luke's 4 years of training pales in comparison to the height of Vader's power during that time. He could force grasp people from different systems. Rey has a unknown amount of training, some certain known training in melee combat and Kylo Ren is nothing but a novice as well.
And he was severely wounded.
6. You clearly misread what I said. Using child Anakin's perfection as a defense for Rey is counterproductive when arguing for a movie's quality. Kid Anakin's perfection was a point of contention for many, EVEN THOUGH IT MADE SENSE BECAUSE HE'S LITERALLY FORCE JESUS.
A lot of hate towards Anakin was more due his age. The problem is not that he is too talented at everything but that he is too young to be so unbelievably good at piloting AND robotics. You put a kid doing stuff that grow ups pass decades learning, it's obvious people will hate it. Specially the robotics part which should not be tied to force sensitiveness and should require tremendous training in formal sciences.
Rey does not have this issue because she's a adult. She had plenty of time to learn what she learnt: how to fix and mess around ships (100% different from creating a droid) and how to fight with a stick. Force powers simply doesn't count because people don't relate with those. And you don't have to appeal to JESUS-like figure to explain her.
1. Lol what? Do you not see the road your logic leads down? "Don't judge the movie! Future ones will clear things up!" Okay, I guess Fant4stic is above judging because Fox was gonna do a sequel. You know, I don't think we can say John Carter is a bad movie. A possible sequel in the future could totally make it better!!!!111!!eleven!!
2. No, that logic doesn't hold up. The point of the comparison is we can assume anything, but unless presented to us, those assumptions are pointless. Batman's feats are hilariously superhuman, but it's beaten into our heads that he's just a human. He could be a badass tentacle monster that uses invisible tentacle monster powers. I mean, nothing says he can't be. The movie NEVER told us Rey was some uber forcer. That's fan theory, that's speculation. I don't care for your hypotheses that may or may not be right. I care about what the movie showed, or rather, what it didn't show.
3. No. No. It's said Kylo Ren was trained by Luke. Then he was trained by Snoke. Here's a not-secret that you should know. In Episode 3, Anakin wasn't fully trained, but he's incredible, isn't he? Well, the thing is, he wasn't fully trained in the ways of the Sith, but he was a fully-trained and competent Jedi. With the stuff Kylo Ren did in the movie, and what we're told there, Kylo's at least competent. Whatever training left for him is dark side-specific stuff.
Disregarding all of that, however, he's trained. That's a fact. Rey isn't. That's a fact.
Finally, I said force-sensitives that aren't trained still have heightened intuition. That's Leia's. Leia is as strong with the force as Luke, but you don't see her using badass force powers even when in extreme duress. Because these are things you have to be taught. These are things you have to hone. These aren't things you can just do.
4. It's established in A New Hope by Biggs Darklighter that Luke is the best pilot in the outer rim. We also see that when he's in the battle with the death star. Force-users make for far better pilots than your average Joe because of that aforementioned intuition and reflexes. Luke had both, but because he never received formal Jedi training he couldn't do any cool force moves. It was only after getting instructed did he finally start picking up these powers, and did so faster than anyone.
How is this at all a contradiction. In 4 years Luke became a master. Most Jedi train most of their lives to get to that level. Let's not forget that Obi-Wan in Episode 1 was still a Padawan.
5. Kylo was trying to kill Rey. He offered the invitation to join him when he wasn't able to put her down. After she refused, he still was unable to put her down and was at her mercy at the end. No, don't give me that "he wasn't trying" crud. With Vader it's established that the whole point of the fight was to get Luke to the dark side, but this movie just has Kylo Ren randomly offer her the chance to join him because that's what Episode 5 did. That's all this movie is.
And I have no idea what you're talking about. Yoda and Obi-Wan thought Luke was ready to kill Vader and Palpatine, so I'll take their word for it. We then see that Luke was able to stalemate Vader, whereas in Episode 5 he never stood a chance. That's growth and progression. Rey's triumph over Kylo Ren comes out of nowhere, but Luke's "triumph" over Vader had 3 whole movies building up to it.
6. Wut. How can you not see that what you "explained" is exactly what I said? Kid Anakin is unbelievable even though it makes sense in the context of the movie. Rey is cut from the same cloth, especially since the movie establishes she's never flown a ship before. At least Kid Anakin was a podracer, and according to Qui-Gon that took more skill than flying spaceships. See, that's the difference between George Lucas' storywriting and what these guys did: everything that happens at the movie's climax is foreshadowed at some earlier point.
You can't use Kid Anakin's perfection to justify Rey's perfection. George Lucas wanted to show that the kid was force Jesus, but this movie wants us to see Rey as an underdog. You can't be perfect and be an underdog. That's not a character, that's John Cena.
So why is it unbelievable that Rey could beat Kylo when he spends the entire fight shot through the chest and also he's not trying to kill her because he wants an apprentice?
The problem is he's a trained force-user. If the writers wanted his injury to be playing such a big role in the fight, have him nearly pass out a few times, or maybe fall to a knee and shake it off. If not, have him get into a real fight earlier in the movie, so we can see that his fighting abilities have been hampered by the end. It's just bad writing that a trained force-user loses to someone he's both bigger than, more powerful than and has more experience than.
1. Lol what? Do you not see the road your logic leads down? "Don't judge the movie! Future ones will clear things up!" Okay, I guess Fant4stic is above judging because Fox was gonna do a sequel. You know, I don't think we can say John Carter is a bad movie. A possible sequel in the future could totally make it better!!!!111!!eleven!!
If Fantastic 4 was a bad movie because details were left to imagination or to be explained in a later I wouldn't judge it a bad movie. But that's not the case.
For example, I won't judge 2001 a bad movie because a lot of things are left to imagination. Or answered in 2010. Or not explained at all.
2. No, that logic doesn't hold up. The point of the comparison is we can assume anything, but unless presented to us, those assumptions are pointless. Batman's feats are hilariously superhuman, but it's beaten into our heads that he's just a human. He could be a badass tentacle monster that uses invisible tentacle monster powers. I mean, nothing says he can't be. The movie NEVER told us Rey was some uber forcer. That's fan theory, that's speculation. I don't care for your hypotheses that may or may not be right. I care about what the movie showed, or rather, what it didn't show.
Batman is never shown using invisible tentacle powers. If you want to believe that, good for you, but you will have a hard time backing up your belief.
Rey is shown using powers only seen in trained force users AND her past is cloudy. And the cloudiness of her past is something most characters in the movie actually spend scenes on. Kylo Ren downright says Rey is powerful with the force. If you didn't raise this possibility, even after the visions of Yoda and Obi Wan talking to her (who could be past or a future visions), I don't know what to say.
3. No. No. It's said Kylo Ren was trained by Luke. Then he was trained by Snoke. Here's a not-secret that you should know. In Episode 3, Anakin wasn't fully trained, but he's incredible, isn't he? Well, the thing is, he wasn't fully trained in the ways of the Sith, but he was a fully-trained and competent Jedi. With the stuff Kylo Ren did in the movie, and what we're told there, Kylo's at least competent. Whatever training left for him is dark side-specific stuff.
Disregarding all of that, however, he's trained. That's a fact. Rey isn't. That's a fact.
Finally, I said force-sensitives that aren't trained still have heightened intuition. That's Leia's. Leia is as strong with the force as Luke, but you don't see her using badass force powers even when in extreme duress. Because these are things you have to be taught. These are things you have to hone. These aren't things you can just do.
Not really sure what you're trying to imply with this post. I'm not sure why you think 'to finish' Kylo Ren training involves exclusively dark side disciplines. All Jedi and Sith training involves increasing the atonement to the force so when a character refers to other as untrained it means there are still things to learn. As far as the movie shows, Kylo Ren is nothing but a force wielder still under training.
Rey on the other hand is a force wielder as well and one who knows how to fight very well. Why is that so against the establishment that a more talented force wielder and very competent fighter beats a injured padawan ?
If you bring me any canonical source that says a force wielder trained in combat (but untrained by Jedi/Sith) will always loose against a severely injured padawan I concede.
And untrained Jedi powers goes far beyond intuition. Leia sense disturbances in the force without training. There are character who have used force pull/push as well without any training. There are also cases of fully self-taught force users like independent force adepts.
4. It's established in A New Hope by Biggs Darklighter that Luke is the best pilot in the outer rim. We also see that when he's in the battle with the death star. Force-users make for far better pilots than your average Joe because of that aforementioned intuition and reflexes. Luke had both, but because he never received formal Jedi training he couldn't do any cool force moves. It was only after getting instructed did he finally start picking up these powers, and did so faster than anyone.
How is this at all a contradiction. In 4 years Luke became a master. Most Jedi train most of their lives to get to that level. Let's not forget that Obi-Wan in Episode 1 was still a Padawan.
It's a contradiction because if Luke is talented enough to beat Vader with only 4 years of practice under his belt* it means his in the very top of the force sensitiveness rank. And in that case one would expect he would develop more powers earlier - like Anakyn, Leia and Rey. For example, he does not sense anything when his uncles are murdered by imperials.
* Mind you Luke didn't passed 4 years training with Yoda either, just something between days and weeks. Luke is pretty much self taught, through he had time to hone his abilities by himself.
5. Kylo was trying to kill Rey. He offered the invitation to join him when he wasn't able to put her down. After she refused, he still was unable to put her down and was at her mercy at the end. No, don't give me that "he wasn't trying" crud. With Vader it's established that the whole point of the fight was to get Luke to the dark side, but this movie just has Kylo Ren randomly offer her the chance to join him because that's what Episode 5 did. That's all this movie is.
And I have no idea what you're talking about. Yoda and Obi-Wan thought Luke was ready to kill Vader and Palpatine, so I'll take their word for it. We then see that Luke was able to stalemate Vader, whereas in Episode 5 he never stood a chance. That's growth and progression. Rey's triumph over Kylo Ren comes out of nowhere, but Luke's "triumph" over Vader had 3 whole movies building up to it.
Supreme Leader Snoke says to Kylo Ren that he should try to bring Rey to him and that's what he tries to do. He should only kill her as last resort. In no moment of the fight it shows Kylo actually trying to finish her.
Darth Vader is so crazy overpower that no amount of growth or progression will fully explain his defeat.
There's progression in Rey character as well. The thing is, no one knows what she is capable of, not even herself, and the whole movie is about she's discovering it. She's progress as she discover her inherent atonement to the force.
About Luke being ready to kill Vader, that's obvious as he did in fact win that fight. What's unbelievable is how is Luke that talented if his not like Anakyn during his youth.
6. Wut. How can you not see that what you "explained" is exactly what I said? Kid Anakin is unbelievable even though it makes sense in the context of the movie. Rey is cut from the same cloth, especially since the movie establishes she's never flown a ship before. At least Kid Anakin was a podracer, and according to Qui-Gon that took more skill than flying spaceships. See, that's the difference between George Lucas' storywriting and what these guys did: everything that happens at the movie's climax is foreshadowed at some earlier point.
You can't use Kid Anakin's perfection to justify Rey's perfection. George Lucas wanted to show that the kid was force Jesus, but this movie wants us to see Rey as an underdog. You can't be perfect and be an underdog. That's not a character, that's John Cena.
Rey a underdog ? What ???
Her very first scene already shows her as not a underdog - intimidating the guy who wanted to keep BB-8 and using force language to understand the droid. Then she beats people up. Run faster then the guy who was telling her to run. Pilot a ship like a boss. And so on.
She's not a underdog not even for 1 second. Rey is a classic "hero discovers his powers".
Hey, what if the similarity to Episode 4 is because the writers wanted to keep the theme of awakenings and the ties of the force front and center? I mean, the main villain is a Vader Fanboy.
It's still a rehash. Saying, "No, a rehash is what they were going for," doesn't change the problem.
I saw the movie after keeping myself away from forums and FB so I could go in fresh. I only saw the trailers. Old enough to have grown up on the original trilogy and while I understand that the sequels are a bastardization of Star Wars for many fans, for some reason, despite their flaws, I find them "part of the story" and enjoy them for what they are.
Episode 7,
I came away underwhelmed! Most my friends/peers, the media etc, seemed to fall in love with the film, either that or there were a lot of censored critics out there.
It's a reboot that doesn't stand alone like the film it's more or less trying to emulate. What made ANH so good IMO is that it could have been 1 and done and it still wouild have been a great film.
I felt like I was watching Guardians of the Galaxy wrapped up in Star Wars merchandaising.
I really liked the Star Trek reboot, it felt like Star Trek but in many ways it was even better. I can't say the same thing for Star Wars.
Now, I plan to see it again, perhaps it will grow on me. I had high expectations because all my friends loved it, maybe now that I have much lower expectations I can see it again and get a fairer perspective.
This movie was garbage. Nothing made sense and characters were shallow with no real motivation behind them. The prequels, while completely mediocre, were miles ahead of this in every way.
This movie was garbage. Nothing made sense and characters were shallow with no real motivation behind them. The prequels, while completely mediocre, were miles ahead of this in every way.
You've just proven that you know absolutely nothing about storytelling, dialogue, or even narrative for that matter.
"Nothing made sense" in an of itself doesn't make any sense. You weren't watching an experimental non-narrative film. That criticism is absolutely baseless. If you aren't a troll I feel really bad for you.
This movie was garbage. Nothing made sense and characters were shallow with no real motivation behind them. The prequels, while completely mediocre, were miles ahead of this in every way.
But the prequels have quite possibly the shallowest, weakest characters I've experienced in any media.
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Your mods are terrified of me.
And yeah, Luke never got half the grief I've seen Rey get.
Art is life itself.
The prequels (not counting episode 3, which is still the second best Star Wars movie behind empire) might be bad movies (and really only Episode 2; Episode 1 is merely above average, but that's not good enough for a Star Wars movie), but their narrative is the strongest and most intricate you'll find in a blockbuster movie franchise. That narrative—that plot, with its various themes—were all written and created by George Lucas. While he has failings as a director, he is godly as a writer.
So yes, he directed 3 movies ahead of their time, and I've no doubt he'd make the vapid, manufactured Disney movies actually have substance.
Your mods are terrified of me.
It opens with a space combat scene that makes literally no sense. If the seperatists can get that much fleet above Coruscant essentially unhindered...the war is over.
The seperatists have the worst ship to ship combat weapons imaginable. If you can launch a cloud of crummy robots onto a fighter, instead of having they cut wires or whatever, consider making them just explode instead.
General grievous and count duuku both have the distinction of being *utterly useless* and also having just awful names.
Palpatine's plan for getting captured is largely incomprehensible. What exactly is his play here?
etc etc etc
Worse is Anakin's motivations are incomprehensible and weird. In the space of a few minutes he goes from 'the dark side is evil and I must get help against this clear sith lord' to 'this guy is BLATANTLY a sith and just murdered three jedi I MUST HELP HIM BECAUSE RAISINS"
And then they make Darth Vader, kick ass tough villian extraordinary into just a useless idiot. He never - in the whole trilogy- wins a fight against a Jedi older that 8 who wasn't told to let him win. That whole NOOOOOOOOOOO scene just makes him look like a whiny idiot.
You spent *six damn films* building up to Anakin falling to the dark side and THIS is how you play it?
Padme and Anakin have less the zero chemistry. He's a weird creepy stalker with the charisma of a cane toad("Sand is rough and awful, unlike you!").
Everything about episode 3 is dreadful - except the fight between Anakin and Obiwan - and that is massively over complicated and pretty dumb.
Indeed.
Also it was massively successful the first time; so just some tweeks here, some updated things there, and BAM another hugely successful, and generally well received, much welcomed addition to the Star Wars universe.
I have virtually no qualms with this flick and thoroughly enjoyed it. Enough that I've seen it twice in the theater, which is rare for me to do.
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Off to a good start.
1. Gee, you mean the same way the rebels were able to get into fighting distance of the death star? You'd think the base would be more protected! Or how the resistance can get into Starkiller Base's atmosphere? Absurd! How the Separatists got there is not a topic worth discussing, but you can see how that happens in the nifty 2003 clone wars cartoon. The movie itself makes it clear that the Separatists are desperate since the war had been going on for 3-4 years. From that context alone, it's clear this is a dangerous move for them.
2. Dude, it's a creative sci-fi weapon. It just is. Jedi could be using blasters and ***** instead of lightsabers. Palpatine could create a massive fleet instead of a moon-sized deathlaser that's just a huge target. It is what it is.
3. Palpatine orchestrated his capture because he knew Anakin and Obi-Wan would rescue him. Worst case scenario: Anakin and Obi-Wan die. If Anakin died, then he simply wasn't a worthy apprentice. Best case scenario: Anakin and Obi-Wan rescue him, in which case Anakin has been brought closer to him. He had Anakin execute Dooku when Dooku couldn't defend himself to pull him closer to the dark side, and wanted Anakin to abandon Obi-Wan on the ship. Only one of those things happened, but it was enough. You need to remember that Anakin is Palpatine's goal, along with becoming emperor.
Maybe they're incomprehensible to you because you've let the typical internet groupthink cloud your judgment.
It's hammered home in THREE movies that Anakin is driven by fear. He was AFRAID Windu would take away the only thing that could save his wife in killing Palpatine. He was AFRAID that if he didn't do what Palpatine ordered, then the secrets he needed to save his wife would never be made his. His motivation makes perfect sense when you pay attention and see the type of person Anakin is. He was afraid to leave his mother in episode 1, and then Episode 2 comes around and his fear becomes reality when she dies. That fear became anger, as Yoda often said, and he slaughtered the Tuskans (they deserved it, really). In Episode 3, he's afraid that what happened to his mother would also happen to Padme. He then goes to Yoda and asks his advice, and what does Yoda tell him? Typical Jedi BS about accepting that people die and be happy they're dead. Not acceptable. Meanwhile, Palpatine is telling him it IS possible.
You make it seem like Anakin gleefully did the things he did at the end of Episode 3. He didn't. The man was crying on Mustafar after he did everything Palpatine had ordered (slaughtered a bunch of children and elderly at the temple, and massacred the defenseless separatists).
How dare Lucas make the person that becomes Darth Vader actually vulnerable when the whole point of the character arc is he's ruled by his fear! How dare he!
Anakin and Padme are both highly sheltered kids, that got thrown into situations way above their emotional maturity. You think Anakin can be charming when he: 1) Spent 9 years as a slave 2) Spent 13 years as a Jedi? See, the Jedi Order makes you believe emotions are wrong, and will lead to the dark side. Not inherently false, but a bit extreme. Anakin would always come off as creepy because he has no experience dealing with his emotions because he's simply taught not to have them. Padme, meanwhile, is a sheltered senator that knows jack ***** about relationships. Maybe she truly loved him, and maybe she saw a sad, broken person that only she could help. Lucas' characters are nuanced enough to draw multiple interpretations from.
How dare Lucas show two Jedi at the height of their power doing an impossible-by-normal-human standards sword fight to the death!
I find it hilarious how people say Lucas demystified the force (no, he really didn't), and then complain when he introduces a lot more mysticism to it.
Before you reply, I wrote a piece on this.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Curse, you've convinced me that my argument is wrong by telling me other people agree with me!
Also:
Did you even watch the scene? Mace isn't murdering Palpatine without due process - he is literally fighting for his life against someone who just *brutally* murdered 3 Jedi who were there to arrest him for his crimes - crimes that ANAKIN TOLD THEM about. I mean Palpatine is using force lightning against Windu, who is defending himself from it (and causing Palps some agony, no doubt) right up until the point chucklewit cuts his hands off.
Mace and the other Jedi tried to arrest him and take him to some kind of justice but the others got super dead. Newsflash, if you murder the space cops, they will defend themselves with lethal force of necessary.
Heeeeeeelarious. Maybe try to construct an argument rather than appeal to popularity. Because that's a non-argument. A nongument, if you will.
Also:
Lol, uhm, no. I've watched Star Wars more times than most people, and have delved deeper into the Star Wars franchise than most people.
Firstly, what Anakin told him is he suspects Palpatine is the Sith Lord. As far as Anakin thought, that just means they'd arrest him
The scene goes thusly:
1. Windu brings along with him 3 other Jedi masters: Saese Tiin, Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar.
2. Windu says they're arresting him without any proof and without the support of the senate. Palpatine brings this up and then says he is the senate.
3. All four masters make it clear they're gonna kill him. Palpatine fights back and slays three of them in the blink of an eye.
4. Windu gets the better of Palpatine and by the end the old man is desperately using force lightning to try to stave off his attacked. Windu had him beat.
5. Anakin tells Windu that what he's doing isn't the Jedi way, but Windu assures him that Palpatine is too dangerous to be kept alive, as determined by Windu and not through due process.
No, bro, Windu messed up by going against what the Jedi code would dictate, even though his heart was in the right place. We may know Windu's heart is in the right place, but Anakin doesn't. All he sees is the Jedi being corrupt and about to take away from him the only chance he has to save his wife.
If the space cops broke into my home, threatened to kill me and pulled out their weapons, I'd defend myself too. I'd super defend myself if one of them then says they're gonna kill me instead of making me stand trial.
Your mods are terrified of me.
CHARACTERS:
Rey
The actress wasn't abd but i have problems with the character.First she's too damm perfect, been good at everything and she was just a scanveger girl from a desert planet.I can udnerstand she has some knowledge of aprts but been able to fly the Millenium Falcon and knowing how to fix it better then Han Solo is very hard to believe.
Her mastery of the force, as lots of people pointed out, is rather BS.Other jedi had mutch more time to learn the arts of the Force.She knew nothing about jedis, thinking they were myths and yet she managed to:
-Counter Kylo Ren's mind reading(Yeah coutner someone more experincced then you, makes sense)
-Use Mind Trick powers to control the Storm trooper(How the hell she knew about this ability?)
-Force bend stronger then Kylo Ren to get the Light Saber
-Actually beat Kylo Ren in a Light Saber Duel becauser she "believes"
Don't give me the crap excuse that Kylo Ren was wounded and Emotionally Unstable that amde him lose because he had FAR more experience and power then both Rey and Finn and could have easilly used the force to kill them.I'll get back to kylo Ren later.
Luke had guidance from jedi Masters and he too mutch more time to learn about the Force.
Her character was also kinda anoying to me.These are minor issues but still bothered me like she had an angry constipated look for most of the movie.Scenes like she getting angry at Finn holding her hand to escape the atatcks in Jakku she got angry and acting like "I'm a strong independent Woman, don't touch me".It felt forced.Her bonding to the litle droid was weird aswell because he's jsut a robot and i would have sold him for food in an instant.Maybe thats just me and im a heartless bastard so this is really nitpicking.
Overral i wasn't sold on her character and she felt way too perfect to make it believeble.
Finn
This character is bafling to me as tow how out of place he is.I actually like the idea of a Storm trooper defecting and showing that they are more human then just fodder for the main characters.The problem is that it wasn't expended on.It had a promosing start with Finn having a breakdown when his friend? died and bleed on him and with the massacre of the villagers.
I assumed the movie would expand on his inner conflict between his loyalty to the First Order and him been agaisnt but NOPE!!!
He just got scared of it and gave a 180 turn and betrayed the organization,wich he grew on and basically spending most of his life serving in a military enviorement bonding with his fellow soldiers and following the Order for years.Afetr leaving the Order he had no qualms in killing his fellow soldies like BACKSTTABING one of them in the back and feeling nothing.He decided to help Poe escape was strange because eh din't knew him and if he was trully scared he would have elft alone without risking everythig for someone he din't knew.Maybe he needed a pilot so i guess he rescued Poe for that so ill give it a pass.
His actions looked more from someone from the Rebels that infiltrated the Order.Actually would make more sense based on his actions like saving Poe, Getting excited for shooting down the Storm Troopers, feeling nothing for STABBING on the back of one one them troopers and basically having no feeling for them.
Also his backstory is confusing in that it was said that he was an Elite Trooper?How can he be one if he worked as Janitor and never had a mission before?I guess Elite Trooper are those that can actually hit someone.
For someone that grew in a military inviroment he had really strange lines like asking Rey if she had a boyfriend?WHAT?!Why would you ask someone you just met that?I understand if it was Han Solo from his younger days but not a SOLDIER.Finn was giving vibes as he was worth comedy relief with silly anticts.
I think Finn shouldn't have been a Storm trooper but a Rebel that infiltrated the Empire, that would have made mroe sense to his character and actions.
Poe
He's alright i guess but he ahd some hicupps like him miraclouslly surviving Jakku and showing up fine in the Rebel's base but thats not really part of his character.I'm jsut wondering what will be the importance of his character in the future.
Kylo Ren
oh boy what a disapointing character.A Darth Vader fanboy will be Rey's rival then.He had a promosing start tough with stoping a Lazer blast with the force and been a scondroul killing the villagers.Good setup for the villain been powerfull and ruthless.But then overtime you saw that he was quite whinny and had anger temptrums.ok ok i cans ee it been part of The Dark Side motife been a young Sith in training.So he captured Rey and he left saying that they din't need the droid?Wasn't he the one obcessed with the droid?I know that he can read mind but i think that someone so desperate for finding Luke he would go after the droid just in case.Maybe the Rebel's coutner atatck was too voerwhelming so it was safer to escape i guess.
Now finally for his face reveal during his interrogation and man was it underwhelming.I guess it was to show that even an everage Joe looking eprson can be a dangerous monster but here it din't work because of the scene.I think it was played for jokes because of rey's reaction.Also whats the point of the mask?So he looks edgy jsut like his grandaddy?He really gave alot of vibes of a whinny Darth Vader fanboy that was going through his edgy phase.
They made it like Kylo Ren was in conflict been draged to the Light Side of the force but kinda hard to believe when brutally mudered an elderlly Man, ordered to kill civilians, Chocking an officer,implied tortured a prisoner and downright been an ********.Agaisnt it was to make hi DEEP or soemthing like that.Forcefully making him have a redemption scene in the future.
Kylo ren should have revealed his face for the first time when confronting his father in the WORLD's MOST OBVIOUS DEATH SCENE.It would have made more impact and would have given less laughs and actually make the scene more impactfull.
It din't help him when the writers made him get screwed by the main characters to make them look good by giving Ren a wound to make an excuse for his loss to Rey.BTW how the hell survived Chebacka's blast shot?That thing sent Troopers flying and yet Ren tanked it?I don't remember The Force giving you resistance to blaster shots.
I'm tired of writing some of the problems of the movie so ill do it later.BTW this is my opinion and why im sayingg the movie's problems.It had way too many flaws stacked that really distracted me from my enjoyment.
Finn is the closest to being a relatable character, but the writing wouldn't dare address the elephant in the room as it regards to him (i.e. killing hundreds of troopers when just one trooper dying before messed him up).
Kylo is the character that annoyed me the most during the movie, leading up to the movie and right after seeing the movie. It was only after about a week of thinking about the other characters did Rey and Poe surpass him in annoyance.
I get you, bro.
Here's my unabridged thoughts on the movie from a month ago. I've since found a lot more things that gnaw away at any enjoyment I could get out of it.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Firstly, I’m not making an appeal to popularity. I’m pointing out that you’re making an argumentum ad hipsterum – that your argument is correct because most people don’t agree with you, and that I clearly only hold my views because other people do. Newsflash: I’ve held most of these views from the first time I saw it in the cinema.
I just don’t understand why you think that is what happened (as it blatantly isn’t). Wait, that's not true - your first point is correct, or at least those irrelevant apparently Jedi Masters probably have names, and those are probably the names they have.
There is no evidence to support the claim they are doing this with the intention of just murdering palpatine. Or that they don't have evidence.
I don’t mean it’s an odd interpretation: I mean there it is significantly unsupported by the actual movie.
For reference, this is the entire scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBLcxXR1PMw
1) The Jedi enter the room and palpatine waffles.
2) Mace says “In the name of the galactic senate of the republic,you're under arrest, Chancellor” and draw their weapons. While moderately hostile, it’s not unreasonable when approaching a suspect believed to be armed and dangerous. (See: Ever cop show ever)
3) "Are you threatening me Master Jedi" says palps. "The senate will decide your fate" says Mace Windu, quite clearly and obviously intending to arrest him and have him tried by the Senate.
3) Palpatine says “I am the senate” in an extremely hostile voice
4) Mace says “Not yet.”
That’s the entire conversation before palpatine declares it treason (which it patently isn't) and attacks. Drawing *any* conclusion other than ‘we’re here to arrest some super dangerous dude’ is irrational.
Then Palps attacks. He murders the hell out of 2 supposed Jedi masters instantly and kit fisto after about a three seconds of combat.
Then, after beating him, Mace swiftly murders him. Oh wait, no...he tries to arrest him some more. Then Sid claims to Anakin, who has just entered the room (in time for that last line of mace's), that the Jedi are taking over. Mace - more than reasonably - responds "The oppression of the sith is over, and you have lost"
Then Darth Sid starts throwing force lightning. As far we can tell from the primary sources (IE the movies) force lightning is SUPER dark side. And everyone knows it. And the emperor isn't "Using for lighting to fend off Windu's attacks" - he's trying to kill him! Granted, he is *awful* at it and should have stopped shooting the lightning bolts that were reflected back into his face before he did, but...come one, be serious.
Anakin does, it's true, tell Mace it's not the Jedi way, but I would describe that as errant bull***** that Anakin knows is errant bull*****.
Remember, they *do* have strong evidence that someone close to Palps is a sith lord, who has been amassing power in an effort take over the galaxy. Said sith has orchestrated that has cost countless millions of lives (and the lives of more than a few Jedi). They’ve got strong evidence this person is *extremely* force-powerful. And they’ve got evidence from an extremely trustworthy witness – a member of the god-damn council – that the sith ******** is so overconfident he damn nearly confessed to being the sith lord! Plus the whole he just murdered three Jedi, and uses force lightning, and is clearly a Sith Lord.
This isn’t necessarily enough evidence to *convict* but it is more than enough evidence to arrest someone.
Yes, at the end of the fight palps pretends to be helpless.
He is, however, clearly not. (witness: he still fires a *****load of force lightning at mace windu as soon as the coast is clear).
At this point, Mace realises that arrest just isn’t a valid option. As Mace states, the emperor is – literally – too dangerous to be allowed to live. You couldn’t imprison him, or put him on trial – he’s probably powerful enough to mind control his way out of either, with anyone less than him or Yoda pretty much. Also, It’s pretty damn obvious that he is Darth Sid, and that he’s orchestrated a straight-up coup against the republic and murdered millions or billions.
What do you think Windu should do?
On Rey: Please. She’s no more over-capable thank luke. Or Anakin.
And the idea he ‘only succeeds twice in the OT’ – get real. He flies an x-wing with literally zero training and is either the best or second best pilot. He mans the Falcon’s gunnery station despite never having *seen* it and is as good as han who owns the damn ship. He’s an incredible shot with a blaster despite having never been in a fight in his life.
More or less literally the only thing he isn’t perfect at on the first attempt in ANH is fighting the tiny robo-droids in the training on the falcon.
Then we have empire in which yea, he gets beat – although it’s the middle act of a story and that is, you know, how stories work – and he still takes down more ATATs than the entire rest of the rebel army.
Then in Jedi, he sets up a super complex plan, beats a rancor while unarmed, beats all of Jabba’s men, landspeeder fights despite never having been on one, and beats Vader in a sabre fight. Among other things.
And during all of this time, the entire duration of his training by Jedi is about 5 minutes in ANH and a couple of days or a week in empire.
Similarly, in Menace, Anakin build C3P0 with no apparent real training (repairing a droid is pretty different to building a brand new one and teaching it six million languages somehow), then wins the big podrace, which no human has ever done before (and I have a recollection that he had either never been in a real one or never finished - I could be wrong). Then he gets in a starfighter - in which he somehow not only takes off, but is the best pilot ever and blows up the droid control ship.
so...that.
Also, red gauntlet:
Quite aside from the fact that it's force pull, not bend, you say
and then
It din't help him when the writers made him get screwed by the main characters to make them look good by giving Ren a wound to make an excuse for his loss to Rey.BTW how the hell survived Chebacka's blast shot?That thing sent Troopers flying and yet Ren tanked it?I don't remember The Force giving you resistance to blaster shots.
ummmm...feels contradictory?
Lol what?
To avoid getting into pointless semantics as it concerns ancient greek debate terms, I'll just get to the point.
Me: "You're making internet groupthink cloud your judgment. Here's why."
You: "EVERYONE AGREES WITH ME DOE!"
See the issue?
I don't care about this though since it doesn't actually have anything to do with the point being made. If you feel like I'm being hipster trash, then so be it. Let's move on to the real discussion, shall we?
Edumacate yourself, dawg.
What I described is exactly what happened. I've watched Revenge of the Sith four times since The Force Awakens premiered.
Uhm, what?
1. "He is too dangerous to be kept alive." Windu has it in his head that they're gonna murder the old man.
2. The Jedi activate their lightsabers BEFORE he even does anything.
3. What possible evidence would they have? Palpatine has never shown himself to be able to do anything with the force, nobody knows he has a lightsaber and the Jedi can't even SENSE him. There is no proof he is a Sith Lord at all in the movies. It's explained time and time again that a shroud has been placed on the force by the sith and that the Jedi, as a result, have lost much of their connection to the force. The only thing Windu's going on is Anakin guessing that Palpatine is Darth Sidious, and that may be motivated by the fact that Palpatine has been in office WAY longer than he should've been.
Oh good, you have actually watched the movie!
To your point, no, and see why above. Let me add that in said scene Windu says Palpatine controls the courts and the senate. He knew going in that having him stand trial was not gonna achieve what they wanted.
Further, I've been saying since the start that this is how Anakin perceives what is happening. The thing you quoted from my blog, it's about how Anakin views the Jedi.
1. Windu and the three members of the Jedi council hastily go about getting to Palpatine.
2. Windu isn't taking Anakin along for the ride. Shady.
3. Anakin arrives to see Windu have Sidious pinned.
It should be stressed that I'm not saying Sidious ain't an evil bastard, because he is (and that's why I love him), and the Jedi are totally right for trying to murder him, BUT that goes against the Jedi Code and apparently judicial law since Windu's electing to say "Screw the senate" with the whole "He's too dangerous to be kept alive" thing.
No, he doesn't try to arrest him. Again, what I said above. He's gonna kill him.
No, Windu has him pinned and he has no other course of action available to him. And again, that's how Anakin would perceive it as well (but this time his perception is reality).
Also, yes, Force Lightning is a sith-only ability. Palpatine being a sith isn't a question to Anakin. Palpatine has to live and teach him how to do the thing Darth Plagueis did, and that's why he has to be taken alive. Also, the jedi way is in agreement with him that a tired old man that can no longer defend himself should be taken alive. Windu clearly wants to kill him. That is both in opposition to Anakin's goal of saving Padme and the jedi code that he believes in.
No, Anakin clearly believes in it. Every time he does something not Jedily, he admonishes himself for it. The kid is filled with self-loathing, because that's what the Jedi taught him to do. Even though his slaughter of the Tuskans was justified, he was still torn up over having done it in Episode 2. When he has Dooku pinned in Episode 3, he wanted to kill him, but he resisted until Palpatine prodded him to.
No. The only "evidence" they have comes from Dooku, who is the leader of the Separatists that they've been in a literal war with for 4 years. Next, they have the testimony of a Jedi. Do you see the problem there?
What was Palpatine's most significant talking point when he addressed the senate? That the Jedi were trying to overthrow the senate. We know this is something he's been setting up for literally decades (see: clones on Kamino and the whole Syfo Dias subplot from Episode 2). If they took him into custody, all he has to do is say "The Jedi barged into my office and arrested me! They have no evidence, and they're trying to take over! Order 66!"
Now you may be wondering if that's the case why he didn't just let himself be captured by Windu and the other 3 and the answer is clear there too: he needs Anakin to become his apprentice. If he went with the get captured option, Anakin would probably be killed with the rest of the Jedi.
Yes, he throws force lightning at Windu while he's distracted by getting his arm cut off and just lost his only defense against force lightning. If Anakin wasn't in the room, he'd be dead.
The "mind trick" only works on the weak-minded, and if Palpatine was to attempt that with actual Jedi presiding over the case, he'd be found out immediately. The real issue is Palpatine has control over the senate and the judicial system. Windu knows this, and knew this going in.
Windu was in the right. He did everything right. There is no taking a sith lord alive. BUT as far as Anakin's concerned, he did everything wrong, and that's the important part.
Here's a handy little image for you.
Also, Anakin is supposed to be perfect. He's Force Jesus. At least in Episode 1. By Episodes 2 and 3 he has so many flaws you begin to wonder how he's supposed to be the hero (he isn't; he's the protagonist of "Star Wars Episode _", while Luke is the hero of "Star Wars Episode _").
One of the worst things about Rey is there's nothing left for her to learn. There is no growth left, and when they try to say there is, it will be an outright lie. What the hell can Luke teach her when she's done everything he did in the first 3 movies, but better? She beat his best damn student despite being smaller than him and having had no prior lightsaber knowledge or force training.
Biggs Darklighter says Luke's one of the best pilots in the outer rim.
He did well with the gun because all he's doing is pointing and shooting. Heightened reflexes have consistently been something attributed to people particularly gifted with the Force. Rey is unlike Luke in this regard because as far as the movie's concerned she's never flown anything and has TECHNICAL KNOWLEDGE of the ship to a greater degree than the person that owned it for years. Luke can point and click a ship's guns, but I doubt he'd be able to fix them if they broke down. Rey could do that and more.
This isn't an appeal to authority. Here's a vid explaining the difference between Rey and Luke.
The first chunk of the movie is devoted to Han rescuing him. He spends the middle of the movie failing Yoda's lessons. He spends the last third of the movie getting his ass kicked by daddy.
In RotJ, his plan goes awry and he and everyone else wing it. How is it a victory that he was able to beat up a rancor? He's a fully-trained Jedi and SHOULD be able to do that much. If we're counting useless muggle wins, then Rey beat up those trained First Order soldiers at the start of the movie despite having no training whatsoever, and beats Kylo Ren later despite having absolutely no training.
Better than no training at all!
That's because the point of Anakin in ANH is that he's literally force Jesus. Virgin birth, unconditionally good etc. He's infuriating in how perfect he is, and even though that's the point, everyone hated it. Is Rey so awful that you're using ANH Anakin to justify her?
Finally, this bit doesn't really matter, but I can't leave it unaddressed:
They're masters, but Palpatine is just better. Nobody would take issue with this if it was Yoda that took out three Jedi. Palpatine is dark side Yoda, and even stronger since he beat the actual Yoda. He's also at least the strongest sith in a thousand years.
Your mods are terrified of me.
She doesn't remember her past. Her past is not showcased in the movie. It's a known in the plot and it has to be treated as such. In fiction when holes are left open they are meant for viewers to speculate until the truth is revealed (or not, in that case people will pass decade speculating). This is part of the fun. But for some reason some SW fans have this strange habit of self-imposed literal understanding of things (only take in consideration what the canon down right shows you and not the possibilities it creates). So there's as much reason to believe she is trained as to believe she isn't (both are just uncertain possibilities).
Despite this utter lack of imagination, there are still some Rey facts that are being missed:
It matters not if people liked it or not. Anakin and his infuriating perfection is part of the canon and it sets the stage for what a untrained Jedi is - someone with inhuman intuition.
And imo Rey IS Anakin done right. And It worked fairly well for me.
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I won't quote each bit of your post since that'll make this overly lengthy.
1. All of your arguments boil down to "wait for them to explain it," but that's not how movies work. I shouldn't have to wait 2 years and pay $20 more to get BASIC answers to things.
2. I can believe Batman is a Lovecraftian tentacle monster masquerading as a man and you literally cannot prove me wrong. Doesn't mean it's a logical at all belief to hold. Rey is presented as not knowing how to Force, so why should I assume she's some super badass force-user that just forgot?
3. There have been force-sensitives in the EU that have never been trained a day in their life, yes that is true. Most of them go their entire lives without ever using the force, instead getting by on heightened intuition and reflexes (take, for example, Roan Shryne's mother or Granta Omega). Then there's some force-sensitives who can use force pushes and pulls by tapping into raw emotion (take, for example, a young Galen Marek or Savage Opress). Do you know what all these people have in common though? They're no match for actually trained force-users. Kylo Ren is Luke's best student, AND a Skywalker, and he lost to a novice.
4. You're incorrect. Luke left Tatooine at 19 years old. In Return of the Jedi he was 23. He took 4 years to move from not even knowing what the Force was to Master-level skill. Remember that the typical Jedi has to train all their life for that. There is no contradiction.
5. Rey beating Kylo is nothing at all like Luke beating Vader. We know Vader had no intention of killing Luke, we know Luke had to use his anger to triumph over Vader, and most of all, we know Luke had 4 years of training under his belt by the time he fought Vader on the second Death Star. There was ready. Yoda said Luke was ready. Obi-Wan said Luke was ready. Not even comparable to Rey.
6. You clearly misread what I said. Using child Anakin's perfection as a defense for Rey is counterproductive when arguing for a movie's quality. Kid Anakin's perfection was a point of contention for many, EVEN THOUGH IT MADE SENSE BECAUSE HE'S LITERALLY FORCE JESUS.
7. Rey isn't at all Anakin done right. Anakin wasn't done wrong. George Lucas told the story of a kid that was never in control of his destiny—a kid that wanted to help people but got manipulated by others his whole life. Rey, in comparison, is just a perfect, devoid-of-flaws or failures "badass".
Your mods are terrified of me.
Art is life itself.
I'm not sure why you feel entitled to decide on how movies should work. All I can say is I have no issue with this sort of mystery - it's made pretty obvious that Rey's cloudy past will be explored in the upcoming episodes.
If batman randomly started to take down people with tentacle powers you would have reasons to.
In Rey's case...
Except that Kylo Ren is not a fully trained force user. It's said over and over during the movie that his training is not finished yet - which could mean he is not a master but much more likely means, due his little age and the fact that Knights no longer 'train', that his not even a Knight. Even his lightsaber is crude as a means to show case his inexperience (remember how Vader compliments Luke when he see how good the lightsaber he made is). So a incredibly sensitive force wielder with no Jedi training but plenty of martial training beating a severely wounded "Padawan" that was not fighting for real ? Not that unbelievable.
The powers of a untrained force wielder can go beyond that. Just to use a movie example, Leia who has no training sense disturbance in the force during RotJ.
The contradiction is if Luke is so talented in order to become a Jedi master in so little time and with so little exposure to Jedi discipline (he actually passed relatively little time with Obi Wan and Yoda) why is that he shows no particular force powers before his training - like all the other untrained force sensitive characters in the movie ? And I'm not even using stuff from the EU here.
Kylo has no intention of killing Rey either.
Rey uses her superior connection to the force to beat him (which is far more fitting for a Jedi).
Luke's 4 years of training pales in comparison to the height of Vader's power during that time. He could force grasp people from different systems. Rey has a unknown amount of training, some certain known training in melee combat and Kylo Ren is nothing but a novice as well.
And he was severely wounded.
A lot of hate towards Anakin was more due his age. The problem is not that he is too talented at everything but that he is too young to be so unbelievably good at piloting AND robotics. You put a kid doing stuff that grow ups pass decades learning, it's obvious people will hate it. Specially the robotics part which should not be tied to force sensitiveness and should require tremendous training in formal sciences.
Rey does not have this issue because she's a adult. She had plenty of time to learn what she learnt: how to fix and mess around ships (100% different from creating a droid) and how to fight with a stick. Force powers simply doesn't count because people don't relate with those. And you don't have to appeal to JESUS-like figure to explain her.
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2. No, that logic doesn't hold up. The point of the comparison is we can assume anything, but unless presented to us, those assumptions are pointless. Batman's feats are hilariously superhuman, but it's beaten into our heads that he's just a human. He could be a badass tentacle monster that uses invisible tentacle monster powers. I mean, nothing says he can't be. The movie NEVER told us Rey was some uber forcer. That's fan theory, that's speculation. I don't care for your hypotheses that may or may not be right. I care about what the movie showed, or rather, what it didn't show.
3. No. No. It's said Kylo Ren was trained by Luke. Then he was trained by Snoke. Here's a not-secret that you should know. In Episode 3, Anakin wasn't fully trained, but he's incredible, isn't he? Well, the thing is, he wasn't fully trained in the ways of the Sith, but he was a fully-trained and competent Jedi. With the stuff Kylo Ren did in the movie, and what we're told there, Kylo's at least competent. Whatever training left for him is dark side-specific stuff.
Disregarding all of that, however, he's trained. That's a fact. Rey isn't. That's a fact.
Finally, I said force-sensitives that aren't trained still have heightened intuition. That's Leia's. Leia is as strong with the force as Luke, but you don't see her using badass force powers even when in extreme duress. Because these are things you have to be taught. These are things you have to hone. These aren't things you can just do.
4. It's established in A New Hope by Biggs Darklighter that Luke is the best pilot in the outer rim. We also see that when he's in the battle with the death star. Force-users make for far better pilots than your average Joe because of that aforementioned intuition and reflexes. Luke had both, but because he never received formal Jedi training he couldn't do any cool force moves. It was only after getting instructed did he finally start picking up these powers, and did so faster than anyone.
How is this at all a contradiction. In 4 years Luke became a master. Most Jedi train most of their lives to get to that level. Let's not forget that Obi-Wan in Episode 1 was still a Padawan.
5. Kylo was trying to kill Rey. He offered the invitation to join him when he wasn't able to put her down. After she refused, he still was unable to put her down and was at her mercy at the end. No, don't give me that "he wasn't trying" crud. With Vader it's established that the whole point of the fight was to get Luke to the dark side, but this movie just has Kylo Ren randomly offer her the chance to join him because that's what Episode 5 did. That's all this movie is.
And I have no idea what you're talking about. Yoda and Obi-Wan thought Luke was ready to kill Vader and Palpatine, so I'll take their word for it. We then see that Luke was able to stalemate Vader, whereas in Episode 5 he never stood a chance. That's growth and progression. Rey's triumph over Kylo Ren comes out of nowhere, but Luke's "triumph" over Vader had 3 whole movies building up to it.
6. Wut. How can you not see that what you "explained" is exactly what I said? Kid Anakin is unbelievable even though it makes sense in the context of the movie. Rey is cut from the same cloth, especially since the movie establishes she's never flown a ship before. At least Kid Anakin was a podracer, and according to Qui-Gon that took more skill than flying spaceships. See, that's the difference between George Lucas' storywriting and what these guys did: everything that happens at the movie's climax is foreshadowed at some earlier point.
You can't use Kid Anakin's perfection to justify Rey's perfection. George Lucas wanted to show that the kid was force Jesus, but this movie wants us to see Rey as an underdog. You can't be perfect and be an underdog. That's not a character, that's John Cena.
The problem is he's a trained force-user. If the writers wanted his injury to be playing such a big role in the fight, have him nearly pass out a few times, or maybe fall to a knee and shake it off. If not, have him get into a real fight earlier in the movie, so we can see that his fighting abilities have been hampered by the end. It's just bad writing that a trained force-user loses to someone he's both bigger than, more powerful than and has more experience than.
Much better version of Kylo Ren by a much better writer than JJ. No, it's not Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus or Darth Revan.
Your mods are terrified of me.
If Fantastic 4 was a bad movie because details were left to imagination or to be explained in a later I wouldn't judge it a bad movie. But that's not the case.
For example, I won't judge 2001 a bad movie because a lot of things are left to imagination. Or answered in 2010. Or not explained at all.
Batman is never shown using invisible tentacle powers. If you want to believe that, good for you, but you will have a hard time backing up your belief.
Rey is shown using powers only seen in trained force users AND her past is cloudy. And the cloudiness of her past is something most characters in the movie actually spend scenes on. Kylo Ren downright says Rey is powerful with the force. If you didn't raise this possibility, even after the visions of Yoda and Obi Wan talking to her (who could be past or a future visions), I don't know what to say.
Not really sure what you're trying to imply with this post. I'm not sure why you think 'to finish' Kylo Ren training involves exclusively dark side disciplines. All Jedi and Sith training involves increasing the atonement to the force so when a character refers to other as untrained it means there are still things to learn. As far as the movie shows, Kylo Ren is nothing but a force wielder still under training.
Rey on the other hand is a force wielder as well and one who knows how to fight very well. Why is that so against the establishment that a more talented force wielder and very competent fighter beats a injured padawan ?
If you bring me any canonical source that says a force wielder trained in combat (but untrained by Jedi/Sith) will always loose against a severely injured padawan I concede.
And untrained Jedi powers goes far beyond intuition. Leia sense disturbances in the force without training. There are character who have used force pull/push as well without any training. There are also cases of fully self-taught force users like independent force adepts.
It's a contradiction because if Luke is talented enough to beat Vader with only 4 years of practice under his belt* it means his in the very top of the force sensitiveness rank. And in that case one would expect he would develop more powers earlier - like Anakyn, Leia and Rey. For example, he does not sense anything when his uncles are murdered by imperials.
* Mind you Luke didn't passed 4 years training with Yoda either, just something between days and weeks. Luke is pretty much self taught, through he had time to hone his abilities by himself.
Supreme Leader Snoke says to Kylo Ren that he should try to bring Rey to him and that's what he tries to do. He should only kill her as last resort. In no moment of the fight it shows Kylo actually trying to finish her.
Darth Vader is so crazy overpower that no amount of growth or progression will fully explain his defeat.
There's progression in Rey character as well. The thing is, no one knows what she is capable of, not even herself, and the whole movie is about she's discovering it. She's progress as she discover her inherent atonement to the force.
About Luke being ready to kill Vader, that's obvious as he did in fact win that fight. What's unbelievable is how is Luke that talented if his not like Anakyn during his youth.
Rey a underdog ? What ???
Her very first scene already shows her as not a underdog - intimidating the guy who wanted to keep BB-8 and using force language to understand the droid. Then she beats people up. Run faster then the guy who was telling her to run. Pilot a ship like a boss. And so on.
She's not a underdog not even for 1 second. Rey is a classic "hero discovers his powers".
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Episode 7,
I came away underwhelmed! Most my friends/peers, the media etc, seemed to fall in love with the film, either that or there were a lot of censored critics out there.
It's a reboot that doesn't stand alone like the film it's more or less trying to emulate. What made ANH so good IMO is that it could have been 1 and done and it still wouild have been a great film.
I felt like I was watching Guardians of the Galaxy wrapped up in Star Wars merchandaising.
I really liked the Star Trek reboot, it felt like Star Trek but in many ways it was even better. I can't say the same thing for Star Wars.
Now, I plan to see it again, perhaps it will grow on me. I had high expectations because all my friends loved it, maybe now that I have much lower expectations I can see it again and get a fairer perspective.
You've just proven that you know absolutely nothing about storytelling, dialogue, or even narrative for that matter.
"Nothing made sense" in an of itself doesn't make any sense. You weren't watching an experimental non-narrative film. That criticism is absolutely baseless. If you aren't a troll I feel really bad for you.
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