Recently, in the final episode of Legend of Korra,
Kuvira, the main villain of the final season, felt remorse for her actions after realizing that she and Korra, the main hero of the series, were very similar to each other.
Some fans did not like that occurrence, comparing it to the numerous instances in Naruto where a villain redeemed themselves after realizing that they were similar to the titular hero, and I am certain that such an act has occurred in other fictional stories, as well.
I wonder why the viewers were upset by that, or why they disliked the occurrence of that redemption in Naruto or other stories. While I do prefer villains who are completely evil and have no chance of redemption, villains who redeem themselves are also nice, because they feel more human and understandable as characters (note that I said "understandable," but not necessarily sympathetic); they help to show that a person can learn from their mistakes and become a better member of society.
What does everyone else say about this? Why do some people here dislike it when a villain redeems themselves after they realize that they are similar to the hero?
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the main reason why some readers/viewers dislike this type of plot resolution is because it runs contrary to their expectations, like it or not when dealing with season enders we prefer clean cut solutions, neat packages of "good/bad/irrelevant" resolutions to which we can all agree with, we expect the redemption arcs to be parts of the finally but not THE finale, certainly not with regards to the villain.
Korra gives us instead a clear cut villain (honestly up to that one point while we can kinda see some of Kuvira's angles the series is still making it quite clear her views and actions are the extreme point where things tend to turn evil), but by giving us that one moment of understanding (i wouldnt quite call it redemption but rather acceptance and surrender) and by making that one moment link both characters together we are no longer seeing a clear white and black scenario, we are seeing grey, maybe a dark grey but the point is its no longer a clear distinction.
Talking about Naruto however... its never that the villain achieves redemption, "Love-Love-Doki-Suki~~~desu-no-jutsu" simply turns them good and then all is good and fine while we wait for the next big bad to show up then rinse/repeat (or villain dies), there is literally zero buildup to the sudden 'redemption' reveals in naruto and zero fallout/rebuilding regarding depth or growth.
Redemption works for me in two flavors:
1) Redemption is achieved prior to the final confrontation, for a videogame example think FFIV where Golbez redeems himself fully before the final battle takes place.
2) Redemption is followed by a sacrifice of some sort, usually self sacrifice as the ultimate form of redemption (do i need to explain further?).
I should probably stop posting at 2am....
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
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That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
It bothered me that Kuvira lacked the conviction to stick by her beliefs and actions and was swayed so easily in a matter of minutes when in the previous episode, she possessed enough conviction to shoot her death star mech laser beam at her fiance's general location.
Usually the problem is when it feels forced, like that it literally came from nowhere, it feels like a cop-out, or there is no emotional investment in the villain. And sometimes, we just want a bad guy who is evil (with good reason, not generic rule/destroy the world) to die/lose. In Naruto, how many villains actually go good? Orochimaru never goes good (as far as I remember), most of the Akatsuki, Madara, and the final villain. Pain, Sasuke, and Tobi were ones who went to being villains but were saved. Couple in mind that the series was based on redemption and salvation.
In my personal opinion, the final villain should rarely be the redeemed villain unless there is a lot of set up for it. Also, just because a villain has a trouble past or realize their goal is wrong, they should not immediately go good.
Reminds me of Game of Thrones...I thought Stannis was a villain, and he turns out to be the only self-styled king that cared to go and assist the Night's Watch. I think a resolution of plot is all that's necessary for a final. Taking an unexpected route to that resolution is usually more entertaining than seeing my personal checklist of "things for the hero/villain to do" checked off one by one.
Don't forget the fact that it's very common. Exacerbates the "cop-out factor".
But yes, it can be a hamfisted way to try to force a character arc. Villians can generally be expected to have strong convictions - not only because it makes them more compelling characters but also because their views naturally tend to run counter to the average character and social system they interact with. So to have them simply be shaken by talking to one character, hearing things they've likely heard before... yea, you need a more full character arc than that.
I don't watch Korra and it can be done well but it often isn't. Darth Vader is an example where I'd say it was done pretty well. The character arc is largely what makes the fight scene and what follows so damn good.
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"Virtue, Jacques, is an excellent thing. Both good people and wicked people speak highly of it..."
Any time a villain changes his tune only ata climax of a story? That's too quick.
2) There are no repercussions to his actions, since he already repented
God, I hate this. Mass murderer that repents and now has the law catching up? "He's not the same person!" and the protagonist rush to his defense. Happens much too often in TV.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Application of this works much better in situations where we are already aware of, or there has been foreshadowing of some bigger threat. It also helps if we know that the villain has some sort of handler or a character is poised to usurp, but this can be revealed after the incident too. If we look at Star Wars, we see quite a bit of setup for this. That is arguably the seminal example of our day.
More often than not though, it is a very poorly used trope. It does not fit well with any format which is serialized as a "case of the week", or as an episodic affair. These lend themselves to the more traditional "good vs evil" affair. The other pitfall that occurs is that plots get too convoluted, and it dulls the conviction of the villain artificially.
This is best used in long, dramatic, stories. The trick is to not let the story drag on too long (like most shows have a tendency to do these days). There also have to be sympathetic elements of the villain revealed throughout the story of varying measure. They do not even have to fully include the villain themselves. This is made more difficult if the Antagonist is an Anti-Hero, since there is little reason for an Anti-Hero to be able to, or even want to change the villain.
I quite like the idea of a villain being redeemed, but it does not fit every story.
If you have watched Agents of Shield, Cal's story line is a good example of a villain being redeemed and saved but still having to face the consequences of their actions.
It is possible resolution that can be quite fulfilling if done well. The problem is too many stories try to cram it in at the very end with no build-up and then they try to make everything happy. Just because the villain is redeemed, doesn't mean they are cleansed of all wrong-doings they have committed.
My favorite characters in Pokemon and Digimon actually did this. Mewtwo, from the first movie, had a heel-face turn in his alignment upon seeing the genetically created Pokemon battling the natural Pokemon. I didn't like how abruptly he had his change of heart, but it felt like an appropriate resolution. BlackWarGreymon (who, let's face it, is basically Mewtwo with a larger destructive streak) performed a similar about-face after his battle with WarGreymon and Paildramon. I liked him as both the tragic villain seeking purpose and then as the ultimate badass that sacrificed himself to prevent Myotismon from achieving his goals (which I guess was somewhat in vain, but it worked out in the end for the Digidestined). I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for villains to redeem themselves - it shows a character that more people can relate to, because when it comes down to it, it was just somebody whose motives got misunderstood by the extremity of their actions, and probably had goals and desires not too far off from other people's. They just got too far carried away.
Now, what I find really interesting is when this trope is flipped on its head, and instead, you'll start with a protagonist that seems to be a regular, decent person and falls down a path of corruption and irredeemable "evil", such as Light Yagami from DeathNote. I was actually discussing DeathNote with a friend, and he mentioned that Ray Pemberton and his fiance's deaths seemed rather underwhelming and not terribly relevant to the overall plot, but I disagreed - I felt that was the point in the story in which Light started making the decision to kill people not because they were criminals or bad people, but because he was addicted to his power of being Kira and did not want to give up his goal. He made the executive decision that he was superior to them, and that by their interference with his plan, they were not worthy of life. It's the turning point of the series where Light's ego triumphs over his sense of justice, and it's all downhill from there for him.
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Now, what I find really interesting is when this trope is flipped on its head, and instead, you'll start with a protagonist that seems to be a regular, decent person and falls down a path of corruption and irredeemable "evil", such as Light Yagami from DeathNote. I was actually discussing DeathNote with a friend, and he mentioned that Ray Pemberton and his fiance's deaths seemed rather underwhelming and not terribly relevant to the overall plot, but I disagreed - I felt that was the point in the story in which Light started making the decision to kill people not because they were criminals or bad people, but because he was addicted to his power of being Kira and did not want to give up his goal. He made the executive decision that he was superior to them, and that by their interference with his plan, they were not worthy of life. It's the turning point of the series where Light's ego triumphs over his sense of justice, and it's all downhill from there for him.
Or the one in Se7en. I really liked that one as well.
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We have laboured long to build a heaven, only to find it populated with horrors.
I liked how Game of Thrones (moreso the books, but somewhat in the show) did this with Stannis. He was skewing into villain territory in the beginning of season four, what with him burning his priests on the beach and all. But, no spoilers, he starts doing the right thing later on.
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I wonder why the viewers were upset by that, or why they disliked the occurrence of that redemption in Naruto or other stories. While I do prefer villains who are completely evil and have no chance of redemption, villains who redeem themselves are also nice, because they feel more human and understandable as characters (note that I said "understandable," but not necessarily sympathetic); they help to show that a person can learn from their mistakes and become a better member of society.
What does everyone else say about this? Why do some people here dislike it when a villain redeems themselves after they realize that they are similar to the hero?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Korra gives us instead a clear cut villain (honestly up to that one point while we can kinda see some of Kuvira's angles the series is still making it quite clear her views and actions are the extreme point where things tend to turn evil), but by giving us that one moment of understanding (i wouldnt quite call it redemption but rather acceptance and surrender) and by making that one moment link both characters together we are no longer seeing a clear white and black scenario, we are seeing grey, maybe a dark grey but the point is its no longer a clear distinction.
Talking about Naruto however... its never that the villain achieves redemption, "Love-Love-Doki-Suki~~~desu-no-jutsu" simply turns them good and then all is good and fine while we wait for the next big bad to show up then rinse/repeat (or villain dies), there is literally zero buildup to the sudden 'redemption' reveals in naruto and zero fallout/rebuilding regarding depth or growth.
Redemption works for me in two flavors:
1) Redemption is achieved prior to the final confrontation, for a videogame example think FFIV where Golbez redeems himself fully before the final battle takes place.
2) Redemption is followed by a sacrifice of some sort, usually self sacrifice as the ultimate form of redemption (do i need to explain further?).
I should probably stop posting at 2am....
In my personal opinion, the final villain should rarely be the redeemed villain unless there is a lot of set up for it. Also, just because a villain has a trouble past or realize their goal is wrong, they should not immediately go good.
But yes, it can be a hamfisted way to try to force a character arc. Villians can generally be expected to have strong convictions - not only because it makes them more compelling characters but also because their views naturally tend to run counter to the average character and social system they interact with. So to have them simply be shaken by talking to one character, hearing things they've likely heard before... yea, you need a more full character arc than that.
I don't watch Korra and it can be done well but it often isn't. Darth Vader is an example where I'd say it was done pretty well. The character arc is largely what makes the fight scene and what follows so damn good.
1) It's too easy, too quick
Any time a villain changes his tune only ata climax of a story? That's too quick.
2) There are no repercussions to his actions, since he already repented
God, I hate this. Mass murderer that repents and now has the law catching up? "He's not the same person!" and the protagonist rush to his defense. Happens much too often in TV.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
More often than not though, it is a very poorly used trope. It does not fit well with any format which is serialized as a "case of the week", or as an episodic affair. These lend themselves to the more traditional "good vs evil" affair. The other pitfall that occurs is that plots get too convoluted, and it dulls the conviction of the villain artificially.
This is best used in long, dramatic, stories. The trick is to not let the story drag on too long (like most shows have a tendency to do these days). There also have to be sympathetic elements of the villain revealed throughout the story of varying measure. They do not even have to fully include the villain themselves. This is made more difficult if the Antagonist is an Anti-Hero, since there is little reason for an Anti-Hero to be able to, or even want to change the villain.
I quite like the idea of a villain being redeemed, but it does not fit every story.
If you have watched Agents of Shield, Cal's story line is a good example of a villain being redeemed and saved but still having to face the consequences of their actions.
It is possible resolution that can be quite fulfilling if done well. The problem is too many stories try to cram it in at the very end with no build-up and then they try to make everything happy. Just because the villain is redeemed, doesn't mean they are cleansed of all wrong-doings they have committed.
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Now, what I find really interesting is when this trope is flipped on its head, and instead, you'll start with a protagonist that seems to be a regular, decent person and falls down a path of corruption and irredeemable "evil", such as Light Yagami from DeathNote. I was actually discussing DeathNote with a friend, and he mentioned that Ray Pemberton and his fiance's deaths seemed rather underwhelming and not terribly relevant to the overall plot, but I disagreed - I felt that was the point in the story in which Light started making the decision to kill people not because they were criminals or bad people, but because he was addicted to his power of being Kira and did not want to give up his goal. He made the executive decision that he was superior to them, and that by their interference with his plan, they were not worthy of life. It's the turning point of the series where Light's ego triumphs over his sense of justice, and it's all downhill from there for him.
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2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
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Or the one in Se7en. I really liked that one as well.