I've noticed that all of my friends seem to like shows like Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, video games like Grand Theft Auto, movies with torture porn, etc. In fact, I'm having a hard time finding one that dislikes even a single one of those things, though maybe there's still a holdout or two on torture porn. Having worked with teens and pre-teens for several years now, I'm starting to gather that this is now leaking over into that age group based on the conversations I've been hearing.
I remember when I was a kid in the 90's and there was a huge uproar over Mortal Kombat in the arcades or Beavis & Butthead shouting "fire!" but this obviously goes way beyond that.
I'm not saying that these things are all 100% bad, nor suggesting that they should be restricted in any way. But is no one, no one else in the world even remotely concerned that depictions/roleplay of graphic murder, rape, torture, twerking etc. are basically a mainstream thing now? Does the fact that I would prefer it if edifying entertainment were available somewhere in this landscape make me a born again Christian or something?
Seriously, not trying to take your entertainment away... just sayin.
I'm not saying that these things are all 100% bad, nor suggesting that they should be restricted in any way. But is no one, no one else in the world even remotely concerned that depictions/roleplay of graphic murder, rape, torture, twerking etc. are basically a mainstream thing now?
Oh plenty of people are concerned. There will always be moral guardians outraged at such things. Hell, for a while you couldn't depict such things.
The question is: should we care about their concern? Answer: no.
Does the fact that I would prefer it if edifying entertainment were available somewhere in this landscape make me a born again Christian or something?
There's plenty of edifying entertainment.
This whole thing is a concern you raised before, and I respond the same way I did the last time you raised it in a Grand Theft Auto discussion: why are you on a Magic: the Gathering website if you genuinely have such problems with such things?
I mean, you somehow don't have a problem with a game in which I use occult sorceries to sell my soul to the underworld in a pact that will give me the power to slaughter droves of humans and raise them using blasphemous magics in order to murder another player. Doesn't that discredit your entire position?
Oh plenty of people are concerned. There will always be moral guardians outraged at such things. Hell, for a while you couldn't depict such things.
I take it you're not directly comparing me to those people because as you're no doubt aware, that would fail on multiple levels. Even still, I suppose it goes back to my question, "does this make me a born again Christian?" because they're the only people that seem even remotely apprehensive about phrases like "human centipede" entering our everyday lexicon.
Quote from Highroller »
There's plenty of edifying entertainment.
Recommendations, plz.
This whole thing is a concern you raised before,
True, but that was a slightly different kind of conversation. That's why this thread exists.
and I respond the same way I did the last time you raised it in a Grand Theft Auto discussion: why are you on a Magic: the Gathering website if you genuinely have such problems with such things?
I mean, you somehow don't have a problem with a game in which I use occult sorceries to sell my soul to the underworld in a pact that will give me the power to slaughter droves of humans and raise them using blasphemous magics in order to murder another player. Doesn't that discredit your entire position?
It might, but as I have no problem with stuff like MTG, D&D, etc. then clearly I'm not seeing the connection. It's visual media only in the weakest possible sense, not everyone who plays it even cares about the flavor aspects, but for those that do, it does not impose a relativistic worldview where good and evil/right and wrong are unimportant. I don't see what one has to do with the other.
and I respond the same way I did the last time you raised it in a Grand Theft Auto discussion: why are you on a Magic: the Gathering website if you genuinely have such problems with such things?
I mean, you somehow don't have a problem with a game in which I use occult sorceries to sell my soul to the underworld in a pact that will give me the power to slaughter droves of humans and raise them using blasphemous magics in order to murder another player. Doesn't that discredit your entire position?
It might, but as I have no problem with stuff like MTG, D&D, etc. then clearly I'm not seeing the connection.
... The thing is, I legitimately believe you don't see the connection.
And that's the problem, really.
It's visual media only in the weakest possible sense, not everyone who plays it even cares about the flavor aspects, but for those that do, it does not impose a relativistic worldview where good and evil/right and wrong are unimportant. I don't see what one has to do with the other.
You're objecting to immorality being presented in media when you wholly support a card game in which the goal is murder and WAY WORSE ***** happens.
That's hypocritical to say the least.
Also, dude, for real? You're putting twerking on a list with graphic murder, rape, and torture? How, precisely, are we supposed to take you seriously?
Mortal Kombat was violence for the sake of violence. No, it doesn't go "way beyond that", because even today I can't justify it. It was stupid then, it's stupid now. Same goes true for Beavis and Butthead.
The shows you described have a story element to them. Very good stories.
If anything, entertainment today is better than what it was, relying less on shock value and audacity because people are so used to them. Try to go back in the 60s to 80s and you'll find movies with far more gore than they do today (on average). When was the last slasher fic with random teenagers having sex before they get chopped to pieces that made it big?
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
There is so much media out now, that simple shock value cannot work to drive people to see. Instead it needs an interesting story to draw people in and reviewability/replayability.
Keep in mind, we are comparing some of the best from today to the decent of yesterday. It is not unlike those that compared the musical talent of best of the 50s and 60s to current pop idols.
I also disagree the appeal of Mortal Kombat was purely based on excessive violence. There were a lot bloodier/gross games out that relied on more shock value to carry them, and most of them are collecting dust whereas Mortal Kombat continues to be a name. Mortal Kombat was a fun game that people enjoyed playing.
It might, but as I have no problem with stuff like MTG, D&D, etc. then clearly I'm not seeing the connection. It's visual media only in the weakest possible sense, not everyone who plays it even cares about the flavor aspects, but for those that do, it does not impose a relativistic worldview where good and evil/right and wrong are unimportant. I don't see what one has to do with the other.
Lolita can be considered one of the vilest ever written. Heck, for a time it was considered one of the vilest books ever written.
It was published in the 50s.
People enjoy good stories. Game of Thrones largely has good stories. Same is apparently said for Breaking Bad (never watched it).
Most people do not like movies with torture porn. Are you talking about movies like Hostel? Well, then you should know that only a small sub-group of people enjoy that *****. It's not like they're mainstream.
I certainly know that the vast majority of my acquaintance and friends do not like those films, and a good number of them enjoy horror films.
I personally don't think there is such as a thing as "edifying" entertainment. Can you derive entertainment from things that "edify"? Sure. Can you call entertainment "edifying"? I'm not sure.
Most people do not like movies with torture porn. Are you talking about movies like Hostel? Well, then you should know that only a small sub-group of people enjoy that *****. It's not like they're mainstream.
I'd consider the Saw franchise mainstream.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Even in the 50s, anyone who non-hyperbolically would've said Lolita was the "vilest" book ever written would not be very thoughtful or even well-read. I seriously doubt there had not a pro-ephebophilia/pro-paedophilia novel from the point of view of the protag before it.
Anyway, there's definitely a contemporary trend in media to shove in as much darkness as possible. For one it's easy drama, and for some reason there's been this recent general equation of darkness with realism. If I have one more person tell me ASOIAF has the most realistic/lifelike characters in fantasy I may have to shout at them.
Edifying entertainment isn't the trend but it definitely exists. If it's any consolation, the perception that contemporary entertainment media shows more immorality than past media is basically an omnipresent thing. People complained about Hitchcock's on-camera depiction of murder, about bawdy 17th century novels, and about plenty of other things in much the same way.
For my part, I'm not very squeamish so none of this really puts me off. I take issue on principle with things that intend to succeed purely on shock value, though. Quality and moral content are quite unrelated. I can enjoy Reanimator for its legitimate merits as much as I can enjoy cheesy 80s slasher schlock for its generally unintended merits or as much as I can dislike Saw for its lack of merits.
Also you might want to be careful in your use of "edifying", because it reaches farther than just morality and some of the very stuff you listed I would say could probably be called edifying in an artistic sense.
I remember when I was a kid in the 90's and there was a huge uproar over Mortal Kombat in the arcades or Beavis & Butthead shouting "fire!" but this obviously goes way beyond that.
I'm not saying that these things are all 100% bad, nor suggesting that they should be restricted in any way. But is no one, no one else in the world even remotely concerned that depictions/roleplay of graphic murder, rape, torture, twerking etc. are basically a mainstream thing now? Does the fact that I would prefer it if edifying entertainment were available somewhere in this landscape make me a born again Christian or something?
Seriously, not trying to take your entertainment away... just sayin.
The question is: should we care about their concern? Answer: no.
There's plenty of edifying entertainment.
This whole thing is a concern you raised before, and I respond the same way I did the last time you raised it in a Grand Theft Auto discussion: why are you on a Magic: the Gathering website if you genuinely have such problems with such things?
I mean, you somehow don't have a problem with a game in which I use occult sorceries to sell my soul to the underworld in a pact that will give me the power to slaughter droves of humans and raise them using blasphemous magics in order to murder another player. Doesn't that discredit your entire position?
I take it you're not directly comparing me to those people because as you're no doubt aware, that would fail on multiple levels. Even still, I suppose it goes back to my question, "does this make me a born again Christian?" because they're the only people that seem even remotely apprehensive about phrases like "human centipede" entering our everyday lexicon.
Recommendations, plz.
True, but that was a slightly different kind of conversation. That's why this thread exists.
It might, but as I have no problem with stuff like MTG, D&D, etc. then clearly I'm not seeing the connection. It's visual media only in the weakest possible sense, not everyone who plays it even cares about the flavor aspects, but for those that do, it does not impose a relativistic worldview where good and evil/right and wrong are unimportant. I don't see what one has to do with the other.
And that's the problem, really.
You're objecting to immorality being presented in media when you wholly support a card game in which the goal is murder and WAY WORSE ***** happens.
That's hypocritical to say the least.
Also, dude, for real? You're putting twerking on a list with graphic murder, rape, and torture? How, precisely, are we supposed to take you seriously?
The shows you described have a story element to them. Very good stories.
If anything, entertainment today is better than what it was, relying less on shock value and audacity because people are so used to them. Try to go back in the 60s to 80s and you'll find movies with far more gore than they do today (on average). When was the last slasher fic with random teenagers having sex before they get chopped to pieces that made it big?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Keep in mind, we are comparing some of the best from today to the decent of yesterday. It is not unlike those that compared the musical talent of best of the 50s and 60s to current pop idols.
I also disagree the appeal of Mortal Kombat was purely based on excessive violence. There were a lot bloodier/gross games out that relied on more shock value to carry them, and most of them are collecting dust whereas Mortal Kombat continues to be a name. Mortal Kombat was a fun game that people enjoyed playing.
Lolita can be considered one of the vilest ever written. Heck, for a time it was considered one of the vilest books ever written.
It was published in the 50s.
People enjoy good stories. Game of Thrones largely has good stories. Same is apparently said for Breaking Bad (never watched it).
Most people do not like movies with torture porn. Are you talking about movies like Hostel? Well, then you should know that only a small sub-group of people enjoy that *****. It's not like they're mainstream.
I certainly know that the vast majority of my acquaintance and friends do not like those films, and a good number of them enjoy horror films.
I personally don't think there is such as a thing as "edifying" entertainment. Can you derive entertainment from things that "edify"? Sure. Can you call entertainment "edifying"? I'm not sure.
I'd consider the Saw franchise mainstream.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Anyway, there's definitely a contemporary trend in media to shove in as much darkness as possible. For one it's easy drama, and for some reason there's been this recent general equation of darkness with realism. If I have one more person tell me ASOIAF has the most realistic/lifelike characters in fantasy I may have to shout at them.
Edifying entertainment isn't the trend but it definitely exists. If it's any consolation, the perception that contemporary entertainment media shows more immorality than past media is basically an omnipresent thing. People complained about Hitchcock's on-camera depiction of murder, about bawdy 17th century novels, and about plenty of other things in much the same way.
For my part, I'm not very squeamish so none of this really puts me off. I take issue on principle with things that intend to succeed purely on shock value, though. Quality and moral content are quite unrelated. I can enjoy Reanimator for its legitimate merits as much as I can enjoy cheesy 80s slasher schlock for its generally unintended merits or as much as I can dislike Saw for its lack of merits.
Also you might want to be careful in your use of "edifying", because it reaches farther than just morality and some of the very stuff you listed I would say could probably be called edifying in an artistic sense.