Well, here's how the Anglican/Episcopal Catechism defines prayer:
"Prayer is responding to God, by thought and by deeds, with or without words."
So, it defines prayer as a response to God, and that this response to God is not necessary by words, nor is it required to be an action, for it can take place in the form of a thought.
So your question can be reworded as, "What is the point in responding to God?"
The way I see it, the short answer to your question could be worded as connection and relationship with God, but more accurately, it is the fact that we are, by the very nature of our existence, in connection and relationship with God, and prayer is our response to this.
Now, this doesn't answer your question, what is the point, but I feel it's rather like asking, "What is the point of registering the presence of stimuli?" It's not so much about a point as it is a natural outcome of our condition, that is, being connected and in relationship with God.
Well, here's how the Anglican/Episcopal Catechism defines prayer:
"Prayer is responding to God, by thought and by deeds, with or without words."
So, it defines prayer as a response to God, and that this response to God is not necessary by words, nor is it required to be an action, for it can take place in the form of a thought.
So your question can be reworded as, "What is the point in responding to God?"
The way I see it, the short answer to your question could be worded as connection and relationship with God, but more accurately, it is the fact that we are, by the very nature of our existence, in connection and relationship with God, and prayer is our response to this.
Now, this doesn't answer your question, what is the point, but I feel it's rather like asking, "What is the point of registering the presence of stimuli?" It's not so much about a point as it is a natural outcome of our condition, that is, being connected and in relationship with God.
What is the point of actively praying to god if passive action is perfectly sufficient?
Registering the presence of stimuli is not a conscious action, so the two are not comparable. As far I am concerned, there is not a 'point' exactly about registering stimuli, only a why it happens- which is answered by evolution. But a conscious action is by it's nature relates to a point because there is a conscious intention behind it.
So what is the intention? What is the desired result from it?
But why are you actively asking god for something when you believe he already knows you want/need it?
Again, I can apply that same question to every other means of prayer. Adoration: why adore God when he already knows you adore him? Praise: why praise God when he already knows you're going to praise him? Thanksgiving: why thank God when he already knows you're thankful? Penitence: why offer penitence to God when he already knows you're penitent? Oblation: why offer anything to God when he already knows you're going to do so, and everything is his already anyway?
Why are these without problems but petition and intercession problematic?
Feel free to answer the question about the other forms of prayer if you feel like defending them more than I'm attacking them (which is not at all), but could you actually answer the damn question instead of repeatedly dodging it?
What is the point of actively praying to god if passive action is perfectly sufficient?
Registering the presence of stimuli is not a conscious action, so the two are not comparable. As far I am concerned, there is not a 'point' exactly about registering stimuli, only a why it happens- which is answered by evolution. But a conscious action is by it's nature relates to a point because there is a conscious intention behind it.
So what is the intention? What is the desired result from it?
The point about registering stimuli is it is a response. It is responding to something.
Maybe not the best analogy, so let me go a different way, what is the point of conversing with anyone ever? Yes, sometimes there might be distinct reasons, something needs to be said, you need something from that person, there's something that needs to be learned, etc., but in the absence of all of that, you will still converse with people, yes? What is the point of that?
Feel free to answer the question about the other forms of prayer if you feel like defending them more than I'm attacking them (which is not at all), but could you actually answer the damn question instead of repeatedly dodging it?
Is this a joke? You are repeatedly failing to answer a simple question that I've been asking you multiple times now. You've said there's specifically a problem with two forms of prayer that don't exist with the others. I'm asking you what the problem is, and you've just been saying that they're different. Because reasons.
Well what are the reasons? I can't actually answer the question unless you point them out.
What is the point of actively praying to god if passive action is perfectly sufficient?
Registering the presence of stimuli is not a conscious action, so the two are not comparable. As far I am concerned, there is not a 'point' exactly about registering stimuli, only a why it happens- which is answered by evolution. But a conscious action is by it's nature relates to a point because there is a conscious intention behind it.
So what is the intention? What is the desired result from it?
The point about registering stimuli is it is a response. It is responding to something.
Maybe not the best analogy, so let me go a different way, what is the point of conversing with anyone ever? Yes, sometimes there might be distinct reasons, something needs to be said, you need something from that person, there's something that needs to be learned, etc., but in the absence of all of that, you will still converse with people, yes? What is the point of that?
Because other people don't know everything I am thinking and I don't know everything other people are thinking. We share information and experience with each other this way that it is difficult to do otherwise. But god knows everything I am thinking, so why do I need to tell god anything, why is not, if anything, god telling things to me?
The Catechism of the Episcopal Church defines prayer as "responding to God, by thought and deeds, with or without words."
It describes seven different types of prayer:
Adoration, defined as "the lifting up of the heart and mind to God, asking nothing but to enjoy God's presence."
Praise, defined as the act of praising God "not to obtain anything, but because God's Being draws praise from us."
Thanksgiving, "offered to God for all of the blessings of this life, for our redemption, and for whatever draws us closer to God."
Penitence, defined as confessing of sins and making "restitution where possible, with the intention to amend our lives."
Oblation, "an offering of ourselves, our lives and labors, in union with Christ, for the purposes of God"
And Intercession and Petition, in which intercession is defined as bringing "before God the needs of others," and petition defined as presenting "our own needs, that God's will may be done."
And Intercession and Petition, in which intercession is defined as bringing "before God the needs of others," and petition defined as presenting "our own needs, that God's will may be done."
Okay, I don't see any particular issues with the first five; they're not asking god for anything, but rather giving something to him, in a sense. That's fine.
But what about these last two? Can you respond to the OP's question with regard to them?
But what about these last two? Can you respond to the OP's question with regard to them?
What is the problem exactly?
Intercessory/petitionary prayer is asking a being to help out with a problem he already knows about, and is absolutely capable of solving for you without diminishing his ability to do anything else at all. Why are you bringing it to his attention if he already knows?
Intercessory/petitionary prayer is asking a being to help out with a problem he already knows about, and is absolutely capable of solving for you without diminishing his ability to do anything else at all. Why are you bringing it to his attention if he already knows?
How is this any different from the other forms of prayer which you seem to have no issue with?
Intercessory/petitionary prayer is asking a being to help out with a problem he already knows about, and is absolutely capable of solving for you without diminishing his ability to do anything else at all. Why are you bringing it to his attention if he already knows?
How is this any different from the other forms of prayer which you seem to have no issue with?
The other forms you listed are more along the lines of simply saying "thank you" to someone who holds the door open for you at the store, or personal catharsis. God doesn't need it, but it's not really about getting god to do anything; it's being polite, essentially. Intercessory/petitionary prayer is actually asking god to take action... but why bother, if he already knows exactly what you want him to do and is capable of doing it for zero cost?
but it's not really about getting god to do anything; it's being polite, essentially. Intercessory/petitionary prayer is actually asking god to take action... but why bother, if he already knows exactly what you want him to do and is capable of doing it for zero cost?
Again, there's no difference between that and every other form of prayer. The idea that God knows the situation long before you ever existed applies there as well.
but it's not really about getting god to do anything; it's being polite, essentially. Intercessory/petitionary prayer is actually asking god to take action... but why bother, if he already knows exactly what you want him to do and is capable of doing it for zero cost?
Again, there's no difference between that and every other form of prayer. The idea that God knows the situation long before you ever existed applies there as well.
But why are you actively asking god for something when you believe he already knows you want/need it?
But why are you actively asking god for something when you believe he already knows you want/need it?
Again, I can apply that same question to every other means of prayer. Adoration: why adore God when he already knows you adore him? Praise: why praise God when he already knows you're going to praise him? Thanksgiving: why thank God when he already knows you're thankful? Penitence: why offer penitence to God when he already knows you're penitent? Oblation: why offer anything to God when he already knows you're going to do so, and everything is his already anyway?
Why are these without problems but petition and intercession problematic?
But why are you actively asking god for something when you believe he already knows you want/need it?
Again, I can apply that same question to every other means of prayer. Adoration: why adore God when he already knows you adore him? Praise: why praise God when he already knows you're going to praise him? Thanksgiving: why thank God when he already knows you're thankful? Penitence: why offer penitence to God when he already knows you're penitent? Oblation: why offer anything to God when he already knows you're going to do so, and everything is his already anyway?
Why are these without problems but petition and intercession problematic?
Feel free to answer the question about the other forms of prayer if you feel like defending them more than I'm attacking them (which is not at all), but could you actually answer the damn question instead of repeatedly dodging it?
Feel free to answer the question about the other forms of prayer if you feel like defending them more than I'm attacking them (which is not at all), but could you actually answer the damn question instead of repeatedly dodging it?
Is this a joke? You are repeatedly failing to answer a simple question that I've been asking you multiple times now. You've said there's specifically a problem with two forms of prayer that don't exist with the others. I'm asking you what the problem is, and you've just been saying that they're different. Because reasons.
Well what are the reasons? I can't actually answer the question unless you point them out.
If you believe that it's all part of some grand scheme for the universe where everything has to happen a certain way, then you should also accept that your prayers have literally zero impact on any given outcome.
This presumes that your actions have zero effect on the outcome.
In essence (and feel free to correct me if this is wrong, Highroller), it comes back down to oneself. The Episcopalian reasoning amounts to a less explicit version of the Conservative Jewish reasoning in this quote:
The purpose of prayer is for our own sake. The act of praying is an act of externalizing our own desires and hopes in the form of words. We do not need to inform God, or make requests/demands; that is not the nature of our relationship with God. Instead, we give thanks to God and acknowledge the role that he plays. God is the friend that is there for everyone to talk with about their problems. Praying brings the words into your consciousness, making you think about them in a more concrete manner. It is a reminder to yourself of what is important to you, and what your wants and needs are. In a sense, praying is like writing one's goals down. It allows you to look more critically and more seriously at these thoughts. After all, God knows what you will say, but you don't necessarily know what you want to say or will say.
Speaking of Jewish faith, there's a story that is sometimes shared as a joke/lesson during Jewish services. In one version I found online:
It is teeming rain in the flood plain of the Mississippi Valley, and the rising river begins to threaten all manner of private homes, including that of the local Rabbi. With water coming into the ground floor, a rowboat with police comes by, and the officer shouts, "Rabbi, let us evacuate you! The water level is getting dangerous."
The Rabbi replies, "No thank you, I am a righteous man, who trusts in the Almighty, and I am confident he will deliver me." Three hours go by, and the rains intensify, at which point the Rabbi has been forced up to the second floor of his house. A second police rowboat comes by, and the officer shouts, "Rabbi, let us evacuate you! The water level is getting dangerous." The Rabbi replies, "No thank you, I am a righteous man, who trusts in the Almighty, and I am confident he will deliver me." The rain does not stop, and the Rabbi is forced up onto the roof of his house. A helicopter flies over, and the officer shouts down, "Rabbi, grab the rope and we'll pull you up! You're in terrible danger!" The Rabbi replies, "No thank you, I am a righteous man, who trusts in the Almighty, and I am confident he will deliver me." The deluge continues, and the Rabbi is swept off the roof, carried away in the current and drowns. He goes up to heaven, and at the Pearly Gates he is admitted, and comes before the Divine Presence. The Rabbi asks, "Dear Lord, I don't understand. I've been a righteous observant person my whole life, and depended on you to save me in my hour of need. Where were you?"
And the Lord answered, "I sent two boats and a helicopter, what more do you want?"
It amounts to God wanting people to act "of their own volition," even if, on some level, that as well is "controlled by God."
Highroller: Lithl's point of confusion does stand as relevant, though. The question of "Why request something when getting it or not is preordained?" is a very interesting one and effectively comes back to the original question of the thread. And while we can use the argument I've pointed out of it being self-oriented, altruism and selflessness are most often cornerstones of religious belief as well. If it is just a matter of balancing selflessness with introspection, that could be a reasonable point of view, but is that the case? Or is there something else to prayer beyond self-reflection? Communication could also be an answer, but that appears a procedural waste, coming back to the premise of this thread. At which point, many arguments from a religious point of view might say "Don't question God." or "God works in mysterious ways." But that is arguably just deflecting or even pushing one away from God from a perspective of attempting to deepen one's own understanding of one's own relationship with God. So what would you say is the point of prayer that is specifically requesting attention, that is
If you believe that it's all part of some grand scheme for the universe where everything has to happen a certain way, then you should also accept that your prayers have literally zero impact on any given outcome.
This presumes that your actions have zero effect on the outcome.
In essence (and feel free to correct me if this is wrong, Highroller), it comes back down to oneself. The Episcopalian reasoning amounts to a less explicit version of the Conservative Jewish reasoning in this quote:
The purpose of prayer is for our own sake. The act of praying is an act of externalizing our own desires and hopes in the form of words. We do not need to inform God, or make requests/demands; that is not the nature of our relationship with God. Instead, we give thanks to God and acknowledge the role that he plays. God is the friend that is there for everyone to talk with about their problems. Praying brings the words into your consciousness, making you think about them in a more concrete manner. It is a reminder to yourself of what is important to you, and what your wants and needs are. In a sense, praying is like writing one's goals down. It allows you to look more critically and more seriously at these thoughts. After all, God knows what you will say, but you don't necessarily know what you want to say or will say.
It seems to me that Jewish perspective quote encompasses the variants of prayer I'm not pushing Highroller on.
Speaking of Jewish faith, there's a story that is sometimes shared as a joke/lesson during Jewish services. In one version I found online:
It is teeming rain in the flood plain of the Mississippi Valley, and the rising river begins to threaten all manner of private homes, including that of the local Rabbi. With water coming into the ground floor, a rowboat with police comes by, and the officer shouts, "Rabbi, let us evacuate you! The water level is getting dangerous."
The Rabbi replies, "No thank you, I am a righteous man, who trusts in the Almighty, and I am confident he will deliver me." Three hours go by, and the rains intensify, at which point the Rabbi has been forced up to the second floor of his house. A second police rowboat comes by, and the officer shouts, "Rabbi, let us evacuate you! The water level is getting dangerous." The Rabbi replies, "No thank you, I am a righteous man, who trusts in the Almighty, and I am confident he will deliver me." The rain does not stop, and the Rabbi is forced up onto the roof of his house. A helicopter flies over, and the officer shouts down, "Rabbi, grab the rope and we'll pull you up! You're in terrible danger!" The Rabbi replies, "No thank you, I am a righteous man, who trusts in the Almighty, and I am confident he will deliver me." The deluge continues, and the Rabbi is swept off the roof, carried away in the current and drowns. He goes up to heaven, and at the Pearly Gates he is admitted, and comes before the Divine Presence. The Rabbi asks, "Dear Lord, I don't understand. I've been a righteous observant person my whole life, and depended on you to save me in my hour of need. Where were you?"
And the Lord answered, "I sent two boats and a helicopter, what more do you want?"
I've heard that joke many times growing up without specifically Jewish or Mississippian context (generally the man was some generic follower of an unspecified Abrahamic religion in some generic flood situation). Do yo know if there a case for saying it originated with Judaism as the subject?
It seems to me that Jewish perspective quote encompasses the variants of prayer I'm not pushing Highroller on.
I would say it hits intercessionary and petitionary more spot-on, though. Yes, on the surface, they are asking God for something, but in actuality, they are asking oneself what one can do, while reconfirming one's relationship with God. That said, it depends on how you religiously view free will, and whether or not God has an active presence in all events or just in some events.
I've heard that joke many times growing up without specifically Jewish or Mississippian context (generally the man was some generic follower of an unspecified Abrahamic religion in some generic flood situation). Do yo know if there a case for saying it originated with Judaism as the subject?
I'm not actually sure. I've only heard it in Jewish context, since Hurricane Katrina. I didn't have many religiously-contextual situations prior to that, being 12 when Katrina happened.
but it's not really about getting god to do anything; it's being polite, essentially. Intercessory/petitionary prayer is actually asking god to take action... but why bother, if he already knows exactly what you want him to do and is capable of doing it for zero cost?
Again, there's no difference between that and every other form of prayer. The idea that God knows the situation long before you ever existed applies there as well.
But why are you actively asking god for something when you believe he already knows you want/need it?
That's exactly i wanna know. If god know everything then why people pray.
Intercession confuses me because if intercession has power, it seems counter-intuitive that a just God would act differently due to the results of a popularity contest. So for the sake of example, if you take 2 people who are same in almost every respect but one suffers from social anxiety and the other is quite charismatic, then the latter is going to do better with the Almighty?
but it's not really about getting god to do anything; it's being polite, essentially. Intercessory/petitionary prayer is actually asking god to take action... but why bother, if he already knows exactly what you want him to do and is capable of doing it for zero cost?
Again, there's no difference between that and every other form of prayer. The idea that God knows the situation long before you ever existed applies there as well.
If your dog wags it's tail at you when you get home, don't you feel better a bit? You know the dog is "there," you know the dog will wag its tail when you get home and suck up. But you know what? You love the dog, and you enjoy interacting with the dog and then taking off some stress. If you have a child or are close to a child, and they give you a drawing they worked an hour on and give it you and give you a hug. Isn't there something special in that moment?
God "doesn't need" but does have emotions like any other sapient beings. Being appreciated, talked to, and communicated with are a part of a social need for social sapient beings. We know God has anger, God has jealousy and happiness. Contentment, feeling loved and needed are a part of having a sense of self.
Whether that is similar to a dog wagging a tail or a child giving you a picture they worked on. I think, if anything, if it's meant in good faith and meant to show companionship and love then that feeling to God would be from an adult person from prayer as a child saying thank you and giving a picture.
Intercession confuses me because if intercession has power, it seems counter-intuitive that a just God would act differently due to the results of a popularity contest. So for the sake of example, if you take 2 people who are same in almost every respect but one suffers from social anxiety and the other is quite charismatic, then the latter is going to do better with the Almighty?
Need to look at this from a fourth dimensional stand point.
Basically, if two compete and one wins. The question is whether the loser is discouraged or encouraged to work harder and compete better next time and eventually arise to a point to win. I think that's what a libertarian God would go for, and any rational entity would want.
The question is whether the loser is discouraged or encouraged to work harder and compete better next time and eventually arise to a point to win. I think that's what a libertarian God would go for, and any rational entity would want.
You need some kind of feedback in order for "loss" to be encouragement. Or you need to be the biggest optimist on the planet.
"Prayer is responding to God, by thought and by deeds, with or without words."
So, it defines prayer as a response to God, and that this response to God is not necessary by words, nor is it required to be an action, for it can take place in the form of a thought.
So your question can be reworded as, "What is the point in responding to God?"
The way I see it, the short answer to your question could be worded as connection and relationship with God, but more accurately, it is the fact that we are, by the very nature of our existence, in connection and relationship with God, and prayer is our response to this.
Now, this doesn't answer your question, what is the point, but I feel it's rather like asking, "What is the point of registering the presence of stimuli?" It's not so much about a point as it is a natural outcome of our condition, that is, being connected and in relationship with God.
What is the point of actively praying to god if passive action is perfectly sufficient?
Registering the presence of stimuli is not a conscious action, so the two are not comparable. As far I am concerned, there is not a 'point' exactly about registering stimuli, only a why it happens- which is answered by evolution. But a conscious action is by it's nature relates to a point because there is a conscious intention behind it.
So what is the intention? What is the desired result from it?
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Maybe not the best analogy, so let me go a different way, what is the point of conversing with anyone ever? Yes, sometimes there might be distinct reasons, something needs to be said, you need something from that person, there's something that needs to be learned, etc., but in the absence of all of that, you will still converse with people, yes? What is the point of that?
Is this a joke? You are repeatedly failing to answer a simple question that I've been asking you multiple times now. You've said there's specifically a problem with two forms of prayer that don't exist with the others. I'm asking you what the problem is, and you've just been saying that they're different. Because reasons.
Well what are the reasons? I can't actually answer the question unless you point them out.
Because other people don't know everything I am thinking and I don't know everything other people are thinking. We share information and experience with each other this way that it is difficult to do otherwise. But god knows everything I am thinking, so why do I need to tell god anything, why is not, if anything, god telling things to me?
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Towards Lithl: I think Highroller indirectly answered your question in
In essence (and feel free to correct me if this is wrong, Highroller), it comes back down to oneself. The Episcopalian reasoning amounts to a less explicit version of the Conservative Jewish reasoning in this quote:
Speaking of Jewish faith, there's a story that is sometimes shared as a joke/lesson during Jewish services. In one version I found online:
It amounts to God wanting people to act "of their own volition," even if, on some level, that as well is "controlled by God."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Highroller: Lithl's point of confusion does stand as relevant, though. The question of "Why request something when getting it or not is preordained?" is a very interesting one and effectively comes back to the original question of the thread. And while we can use the argument I've pointed out of it being self-oriented, altruism and selflessness are most often cornerstones of religious belief as well. If it is just a matter of balancing selflessness with introspection, that could be a reasonable point of view, but is that the case? Or is there something else to prayer beyond self-reflection? Communication could also be an answer, but that appears a procedural waste, coming back to the premise of this thread. At which point, many arguments from a religious point of view might say "Don't question God." or "God works in mysterious ways." But that is arguably just deflecting or even pushing one away from God from a perspective of attempting to deepen one's own understanding of one's own relationship with God. So what would you say is the point of prayer that is specifically requesting attention, that is
and
I've heard that joke many times growing up without specifically Jewish or Mississippian context (generally the man was some generic follower of an unspecified Abrahamic religion in some generic flood situation). Do yo know if there a case for saying it originated with Judaism as the subject?
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I would say it hits intercessionary and petitionary more spot-on, though. Yes, on the surface, they are asking God for something, but in actuality, they are asking oneself what one can do, while reconfirming one's relationship with God. That said, it depends on how you religiously view free will, and whether or not God has an active presence in all events or just in some events.
I'm not actually sure. I've only heard it in Jewish context, since Hurricane Katrina. I didn't have many religiously-contextual situations prior to that, being 12 when Katrina happened.
I have no idea what you're even asking anymore.
In what ways? What is prayer beyond asking for things?
That's exactly i wanna know. If god know everything then why people pray.
If your dog wags it's tail at you when you get home, don't you feel better a bit? You know the dog is "there," you know the dog will wag its tail when you get home and suck up. But you know what? You love the dog, and you enjoy interacting with the dog and then taking off some stress. If you have a child or are close to a child, and they give you a drawing they worked an hour on and give it you and give you a hug. Isn't there something special in that moment?
God "doesn't need" but does have emotions like any other sapient beings. Being appreciated, talked to, and communicated with are a part of a social need for social sapient beings. We know God has anger, God has jealousy and happiness. Contentment, feeling loved and needed are a part of having a sense of self.
Whether that is similar to a dog wagging a tail or a child giving you a picture they worked on. I think, if anything, if it's meant in good faith and meant to show companionship and love then that feeling to God would be from an adult person from prayer as a child saying thank you and giving a picture.
Need to look at this from a fourth dimensional stand point.
Basically, if two compete and one wins. The question is whether the loser is discouraged or encouraged to work harder and compete better next time and eventually arise to a point to win. I think that's what a libertarian God would go for, and any rational entity would want.
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