Real quick, hell in Scripture isn't identified as a real place. The hell of Luke 16 is actually Sheol/Hades, the mysterious "Grave Zone" of Hebrew eschatology. The hell of Judgment is given a number of different nicknames, some of which contradict: An outer darkness, a lake of fire, a second death, and Gehenna. It was almost certainly originally meant figuratively.
That said, the typical Eastern Orthodox view of the eschatological hell of Judgment -- that it is the presence of God felt everlastingly as torment -- is baseless. It has no support from the early Church, which had 3 competing views (when we look at extant writings, especially from the 2nd century onward):
* Annihilationism; either obliteration after lengthy torment (St. Irenaeus) or a simple selective resurrection (Didache).
* Purgatorialism; hell is agonizing and humiliating but remedial and temporary (St. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa). Adherents disputed one another as to the case of Satan and folks like Judas.
* Endless hell; the unsaved are forever cast-out and abandoned to torments. This is the view that became dominant across the Church from the 5th century onward, spurred largely by the campaigning of St. Augustine of Hippo, and later, the unofficial bishops' proclamation at the 5th Ecumenical Council.
Christianity is, broadly, very untidy. In that untidy house there are two very pretty rooms that each claim their room's borders constitute the "true house of Christianity." The rest of us employ the Forest Whitaker eye in response.
Thus, the idea that evil is necessary for good to exist does not hold.
Correct. Such assertions are a byproduct of neoplatonic and neoaristotelian syncretic intrusions into Christianity. Christian philosopher of language R. M. hare showed exhaustively that "goodness" is just "commendability," and as such is not some some sort of substance. Further, the Bible's presentation of morality is not about references to some purely objective "The Good" but rather an economic interest exchange, wherein there are covenants, contracts, debts, debit/credit, owes/oughts, recompense, etc. The justification given by Ecclesiastes to obey God is, "Because he'll chasten you if you don't, and he made you so you kinda owe him anyway."
Real quick, hell in Scripture isn't identified as a real place.
The hell of Luke 16 is actually Sheol/Hades, the mysterious "Grave Zone" of Hebrew eschatology.
To clarify, Sheol/Hades clearly take on a different meaning in a Christian context than in the Old Testament. The Sheol tradition as described in, say, Ecclesiastes is a place much like Hades in Greek mythology, a dark place where everyone who dies goes. There is no judgment in death.
This tradition changes greatly in apocalyptic Judaism, out of which Christianity emerged. Hades is no longer a generic land of the dead, but a place where those who are judged wicked go.
The hell of Judgment is given a number of different nicknames, some of which contradict: An outer darkness, a lake of fire, a second death, and Gehenna. It was almost certainly originally meant figuratively.
Not clear on how you can say this was originally meant figuratively from this.
That said, the typical Eastern Orthodox view of the eschatological hell of Judgment -- that it is the presence of God felt everlastingly as torment -- is baseless. It has no support from the early Church, which had 3 competing views (when we look at extant writings, especially from the 2nd century onward):
* Annihilationism; either obliteration after lengthy torment (St. Irenaeus) or a simple selective resurrection (Didache).
* Purgatorialism; hell is agonizing and humiliating but remedial and temporary (St. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa). Adherents disputed one another as to the case of Satan and folks like Judas.
* Endless hell; the unsaved are forever cast-out and abandoned to torments. This is the view that became dominant across the Church from the 5th century onward, spurred largely by the campaigning of St. Augustine of Hippo, and later, the unofficial bishops' proclamation at the 5th Ecumenical Council.
Christianity is, broadly, very untidy. In that untidy house there are two very pretty rooms that each claim their room's borders constitute the "true house of Christianity." The rest of us employ the Forest Whitaker eye in response.
Interesting. I really need to study the early Church far more.
Real quick, hell in Scripture isn't identified as a real place.
Sorry, let me be more clear. I shouldn't say it isn't identified as a real place, but only that its precise nature is ambiguous. You can't have a literal outer darkness that is also literally a lake of fire that is also literally a second death that is also literally the Valley of Gehinnom. The only elegant interpretation is that these were a variety of symbols to describe the condemnation due those not found in the Book of Life. Whether this condemnation was intended to be understood as a literal place or a spiritual process (like that described in 1 Corinthians 3:11-17) is up for debate.
The hell of Luke 16 is actually Sheol/Hades, the mysterious "Grave Zone" of Hebrew eschatology.
To clarify, Sheol/Hades clearly take on a different meaning in a Christian context than in the Old Testament. The Sheol tradition as described in, say, Ecclesiastes is a place much like Hades in Greek mythology, a dark place where everyone who dies goes. There is no judgment in death.
This tradition changes greatly in apocalyptic Judaism, out of which Christianity emerged. Hades is no longer a generic land of the dead, but a place where those who are judged wicked go.
'Clarification tennis' return shot incoming!
At first, Sheol was just "the grave" or "the pit." The Psalms describe it such that folks are not conscious there. Ecclesiastes is predicated on death being the legit end of a man's life; the vessel-shattering drives much of the existential angst.
Later, however, it was thought that Sheol allowed some sort of consciousness, and folks therein were divided between a place of torment versus "beachfront property" (so to speak) called Abraham's Bosom or Side. This is the imagery Jesus used in his parable in Luke 16, where he employed Sheol as an image for the imminent Kingdom of God under the New Covenant, wherein the Grace-seeking sinners would find their positions swapped with the self-righteous religious elites.
But this is all pre-Judgment. Under both early Christianity and Pharisaic Judaism (from which Christianity came, you correctly point out), Sheol is an interim holding tank before a general resurrection and Judgment (to which, for example, Judas Maccabeus looked forward in 2 Maccabees 12).
The imagery of Gehenna, rather than Sheol, was employed by Pharisaic Judaism as the destination for those Judged unrighteous, just as it was employed by Jesus. Under Pharisaic Judaism, unlike Christianity from the 5th century onward, Gehenna was a temporary purgation for all but the very worst sinners. And, of course, the early purgatorialist Christians followed in this purgatorial interpretation of the hell of Judgment.
We see this Sheol vs. "Gehenna/Second Death/Lake of Fire" distinction most vividly under Christianity in Revelation 20, where Sheol and death itself are thrown into Gehenna to be purged away.
EDIT: Much of the confusion on this issue under Christianity is owed to two influential cofactors. The first was St. Augustine, who mixed-up Sheol and Gehenna into a single concept and was hugely influential, especially in his memetic war against the "great many" purgatorialists in his day. The second was the King James Version of the Bible, which used the same word -- "hell" (underworld) -- to describe both concepts, and was (of course) hugely influential as well, especially in the Protestant world, helping preserve the doctrinal error of endless hell inherited from the Protestants' traditional forebears.
Personally, I believe that if there is indeed a "god" and that they did create everything we know to exist in the universe, then they likely did it out of sheer amusement or for experimentation. If they had any interest in interaction, then I feel like we would have seen some positive effects by now, unless of course, the "god" was actually malevolent or just uncaring.
Public Mod Note
(osieorb18):
Warning for Necroing.
That said, the typical Eastern Orthodox view of the eschatological hell of Judgment -- that it is the presence of God felt everlastingly as torment -- is baseless. It has no support from the early Church, which had 3 competing views (when we look at extant writings, especially from the 2nd century onward):
* Annihilationism; either obliteration after lengthy torment (St. Irenaeus) or a simple selective resurrection (Didache).
* Purgatorialism; hell is agonizing and humiliating but remedial and temporary (St. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa). Adherents disputed one another as to the case of Satan and folks like Judas.
* Endless hell; the unsaved are forever cast-out and abandoned to torments. This is the view that became dominant across the Church from the 5th century onward, spurred largely by the campaigning of St. Augustine of Hippo, and later, the unofficial bishops' proclamation at the 5th Ecumenical Council.
Christianity is, broadly, very untidy. In that untidy house there are two very pretty rooms that each claim their room's borders constitute the "true house of Christianity." The rest of us employ the Forest Whitaker eye in response.
Correct. Such assertions are a byproduct of neoplatonic and neoaristotelian syncretic intrusions into Christianity. Christian philosopher of language R. M. hare showed exhaustively that "goodness" is just "commendability," and as such is not some some sort of substance. Further, the Bible's presentation of morality is not about references to some purely objective "The Good" but rather an economic interest exchange, wherein there are covenants, contracts, debts, debit/credit, owes/oughts, recompense, etc. The justification given by Ecclesiastes to obey God is, "Because he'll chasten you if you don't, and he made you so you kinda owe him anyway."
To clarify, Sheol/Hades clearly take on a different meaning in a Christian context than in the Old Testament. The Sheol tradition as described in, say, Ecclesiastes is a place much like Hades in Greek mythology, a dark place where everyone who dies goes. There is no judgment in death.
This tradition changes greatly in apocalyptic Judaism, out of which Christianity emerged. Hades is no longer a generic land of the dead, but a place where those who are judged wicked go.
Not clear on how you can say this was originally meant figuratively from this.
Interesting. I really need to study the early Church far more.
Sorry, let me be more clear. I shouldn't say it isn't identified as a real place, but only that its precise nature is ambiguous. You can't have a literal outer darkness that is also literally a lake of fire that is also literally a second death that is also literally the Valley of Gehinnom. The only elegant interpretation is that these were a variety of symbols to describe the condemnation due those not found in the Book of Life. Whether this condemnation was intended to be understood as a literal place or a spiritual process (like that described in 1 Corinthians 3:11-17) is up for debate.
'Clarification tennis' return shot incoming!
At first, Sheol was just "the grave" or "the pit." The Psalms describe it such that folks are not conscious there. Ecclesiastes is predicated on death being the legit end of a man's life; the vessel-shattering drives much of the existential angst.
Later, however, it was thought that Sheol allowed some sort of consciousness, and folks therein were divided between a place of torment versus "beachfront property" (so to speak) called Abraham's Bosom or Side. This is the imagery Jesus used in his parable in Luke 16, where he employed Sheol as an image for the imminent Kingdom of God under the New Covenant, wherein the Grace-seeking sinners would find their positions swapped with the self-righteous religious elites.
But this is all pre-Judgment. Under both early Christianity and Pharisaic Judaism (from which Christianity came, you correctly point out), Sheol is an interim holding tank before a general resurrection and Judgment (to which, for example, Judas Maccabeus looked forward in 2 Maccabees 12).
The imagery of Gehenna, rather than Sheol, was employed by Pharisaic Judaism as the destination for those Judged unrighteous, just as it was employed by Jesus. Under Pharisaic Judaism, unlike Christianity from the 5th century onward, Gehenna was a temporary purgation for all but the very worst sinners. And, of course, the early purgatorialist Christians followed in this purgatorial interpretation of the hell of Judgment.
We see this Sheol vs. "Gehenna/Second Death/Lake of Fire" distinction most vividly under Christianity in Revelation 20, where Sheol and death itself are thrown into Gehenna to be purged away.
EDIT: Much of the confusion on this issue under Christianity is owed to two influential cofactors. The first was St. Augustine, who mixed-up Sheol and Gehenna into a single concept and was hugely influential, especially in his memetic war against the "great many" purgatorialists in his day. The second was the King James Version of the Bible, which used the same word -- "hell" (underworld) -- to describe both concepts, and was (of course) hugely influential as well, especially in the Protestant world, helping preserve the doctrinal error of endless hell inherited from the Protestants' traditional forebears.