If you think Jesus "probably" existed, then why do you still believe the Bible is a fairy tale?
You realize that when you pick up a bible and begin reading form page 1 you will spend hours and hours not reading about Jesus as you drudge your way through the OT. That entire book is a horror show. Child abuse, incest, rape, gang rape, murder, genocide, infanticide, and all manner of ideas that outrage the mind of a reasonable person. I'm still amazed that the vast majority of people that call themselves christians have never read the bible cover to cover.
I think Jesus, or someone like him, probably existed. But as I said, with the massive number of alterations, mistranslations, omissions, and additions we don't even know what the orginal versions of the bible actually said. But let’s assume we had the original text, would it matter?
I say no, it doesn't. The original text was written at best decades after the events of Jesus’ life are said to have taken place. Paul never met Jesus. He supposedly came to know Jesus from divine revelation. He never mentions the virgin birth...or the flight from Jerusalem... Since we, the human race, have learned how to document events with a skeptic eye, and since we have developed the tools to actually describe the world around us, miracles of an explicit nature have stopped happening. By this I mean no one is turning water into wine. The dead are not brought back to life with nothing more than a prayer. No supernatural event has been observed in a lab.
I believe this is because no miracle has ever happened. I believe miracles of the past were either stories or bad explanations for events that were mystifying to our ancestors. That being the case, there is also a great deal of mumbo jumbo in the NT as well.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Cleopatra doesn't have stories where she flies through the air punching lions in the face.
This. To make this argument I have to assume you have not read most of the bible, and hence you do not understand how insane most of it is when viewed from the perspective of a rational mind.
Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
I have not read the rest of the forum as a quick note.
I am an Atheist because i dont see a need for religion imo religious beliefs have caused more deaths than drunk driving ever dared to. The second reason is because im not closed minded and dont want to make others feel alienated bye beliefs. Because honestly no matter how hard you believe something it wont always come true any kid ever lied to about Santa could tell you that. My point is that Religion is another form of baggage that others use to push people around and make them feel bad for living there life the way they want to.
Religion causes a lot of fights and disagreements because peoples views are drastically different. Christians are quick to put homosexuals on the chopping block but when a Muslim following there beliefs kills an infidel it is an act of terror. Its actually more terrifying to think that one is thought to be different because its more peaceful than the other. Its still wrong to bully people because your God says to do so.
I try to get people to change there minds because they dont always know what they are getting into. Religion to me is nothing more than cleverly dressed brain washing with a message of hope. Do x and y you will succeed in all things because your God is on your side. That to me is silly its just a crutch for people who have no faith in themselves and dont want to feel the responsibility of failure so they have something convenient to point to when things dont go there way Aka the antagonist of the religious tale.
Whats wrong with wanting people to learn to be responsible for there own lives, to be self aware and know who they are not who there religion tells them they are. If you have a solid plausible reason to believe thats fine but having a belief for the sake of one or just because its traditional in the family is silly and reinforces my idea of brainwashing. Im willing to go so far as to say i will have a lot of people angry at me for no reason other than the fact im not religious and refuse to believe in something they do.
What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly — that is the first law of nature.- Voltaire
You realize that when you pick up a bible and begin reading form page 1 you will spend hours and hours not reading about Jesus as you drudge your way through the OT. That entire book is a horror show. Child abuse, incest, rape, gang rape, murder, genocide, infanticide, and all manner of ideas that outrage the mind of a reasonable person. I'm still amazed that the vast majority of people that call themselves christians have never read the bible cover to cover.
I think Jesus, or someone like him, probably existed. But as I said, with the massive number of alterations, mistranslations, omissions, and additions we don't even know what the orginal versions of the bible actually said. But let’s assume we had the original text, would it matter?
I say no, it doesn't. The original text was written at best decades after the events of Jesus’ life are said to have taken place. Paul never met Jesus. He supposedly came to know Jesus from divine revelation. He never mentions the virgin birth...or the flight from Jerusalem... Since we, the human race, have learned how to document events with a skeptic eye, and since we have developed the tools to actually describe the world around us, miracles of an explicit nature have stopped happening. By this I mean no one is turning water into wine. The dead are not brought back to life with nothing more than a prayer. No supernatural event has been observed in a lab.
I believe this is because no miracle has ever happened. I believe miracles of the past were either stories or bad explanations for events that were mystifying to our ancestors. That being the case, there is also a great deal of mumbo jumbo in the NT as well.
This. To make this argument I have to assume you have not read most of the bible, and hence you do not understand how insane most of it is when viewed from the perspective of a rational mind.
I've read the Bible, and just because bad things happen in it doesn't mean it's a bad book or that God condones those kinds of things. The Bible's purpose is to be a history book that covers the past. The reason why you see so much genealogy is because it's important to Jewish people.
I have not read the rest of the forum as a quick note.
I am an Atheist because i dont see a need for religion imo religious beliefs have caused more deaths than drunk driving ever dared to. The second reason is because im not closed minded and dont want to make others feel alienated bye beliefs. Because honestly no matter how hard you believe something it wont always come true any kid ever lied to about Santa could tell you that. My point is that Religion is another form of baggage that others use to push people around and make them feel bad for living there life the way they want to.
Religion causes a lot of fights and disagreements because peoples views are drastically different. Christians are quick to put homosexuals on the chopping block but when a Muslim following there beliefs kills an infidel it is an act of terror. Its actually more terrifying to think that one is thought to be different because its more peaceful than the other. Its still wrong to bully people because your God says to do so.
I try to get people to change there minds because they dont always know what they are getting into. Religion to me is nothing more than cleverly dressed brain washing with a message of hope. Do x and y you will succeed in all things because your God is on your side. That to me is silly its just a crutch for people who have no faith in themselves and dont want to feel the responsibility of failure so they have something convenient to point to when things dont go there way Aka the antagonist of the religious tale.
Whats wrong with wanting people to learn to be responsible for there own lives, to be self aware and know who they are not who there religion tells them they are. If you have a solid plausible reason to believe thats fine but having a belief for the sake of one or just because its traditional in the family is silly and reinforces my idea of brainwashing. Im willing to go so far as to say i will have a lot of people angry at me for no reason other than the fact im not religious and refuse to believe in something they do.
Not all Christians are like that. I'm a Christian and I approve of gay marriage. Christians who hate on gay people or any people for that matter, are hypocritical. Jesus told us to love one another. But a lot of Christians have mistreated gay people, and that's something that needs to be changed.
Im not just talking about Christians in general here im talking about all religions they all have some harmful text in them somewhere that inspires people to do horrible things because of interpretation of a scripture from a holy book. I was just saying that i dont see any difference in the lines crossed when persecuting others for not agreeing with what others believe.
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What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly — that is the first law of nature.- Voltaire
The way I see it, Jesus is as necessary as a necktie. He's not necessary to idolize or even believe exist to hold yourself to a proper, kind, generous, or any form of benevolent moral conduct, but he's a nice guy to have your faith in. However, that leads to another subject of having a necktie. Why wear it if you don't need to? If you don't want to wear it, you won't. You might not even have one. But people who do wear it because they believe it serves a purpose, people who believe in Jesus believe they have a purpose or that Jesus has a purpose which isn't at all a bad thing.
Now to me, when religion tries to convert people it is like taking that necktie and trying to tighten it around someone who doesn't want or need that necktie. The necktie is not necessary for that person to live a prosperous or happy or benevolent life, some people will live their entire life without even knowing what a necktie is, or not putting a necktie on, or want one. But when atheists, and we'll say they're the people that don't wear neckties, try to "convert" theists into disproving their religion as false and they should move away from its ideals, its like atheists trying to tear the necktie off of the people who like to wear them.
It should all boil down to the simple concept of "whatever floats your boat." If you like Jesus and believe that his existence is a fact, and his moral standards lead you to live a good life that doesnt harm others, good for you. If you don't believe in Jesus, but you still live a good life that doesn't harm others, good for you.
But people aren't like that. People want other people to think the way they think so that one of those people will be "right." But why should anyone give a Ravenous Rats' ass about what they believe in if it affects you in no way, shape, or form. Dio is proud to be faithful, and if he's living a life as the good Christian he claims to be, then why does it matter if he believes in Jesus or not? Why does it matter that you need to prove someone like Oldaughd that you are right? Why does Oldaughd need to prove Dio wrong? Why can't the two, and the whole rest of the world, just agree to believe in what they want and live their lives?
Because people naturally fear and despise differences. Comfort comes through agreement, that peace of mind that so and so is a believer in this and that so I can trust him. But if he and him don't believe in what I believe in, they are wrong, they're a threat to my ideological integrity, and I need to do my best to keep them from believing the wrong thing. But that's all it is, everything, theism and atheism, they're just beliefs. No one should be seen as person less of a person because of what they do or don't believe in. And personally, whether you do it in the name of God, Buddha, Allah, or for no one in particular, as long as you aren't hurting anyone in any way and contributing to the betterment of humanity, it doesn't matter what you believe.
I've read the Bible, and just because bad things happen in it doesn't mean it's a bad book or that God condones those kinds of things. The Bible's purpose is to be a history book that covers the past. The reason why you see so much genealogy is because it's important to Jewish people.
If you think the bible is a history book, how can you ignore the OT and state that it's just for Jews?
Do you think the whole bible is an accurate depiction of history or just some parts? What evidence can you produce that supports your claims? If only some parts, Which parts of the bible are historically accurate? How do you know which are accurate which are not accurate? What evidence can you produce that supports your claims?
Quote from Dio »
Not all Christians are like that. I'm a Christian and I approve of gay marriage. Christians who hate on gay people or any people for that matter, are hypocritical. Jesus told us to love one another. But a lot of Christians have mistreated gay people, and that's something that needs to be changed.
If you think the bible is a history book, how can you ignore the OT and state that it's just for Jews?
Do you think the whole bible is an accurate depiction of history or just some parts? What evidence can you produce that supports your claims? If only some parts, Which parts of the bible are historically accurate? How do you know which are accurate which are not accurate? What evidence can you produce that supports your claims?
That does nothing to dispel that your god is unchanging, unless you are stating that your god did change - in which case he lied.
I would say that you are just cherry picking what you like and glossing over what you don't like.
For example, here are some of the teaching of Jesus I'm sure you don't follow or believe:
• If you do something wrong with your eye or hand, cut/pluck it off (Matthew 5:29-30, in a sexual context).
• Marrying a divorced woman is adultery. (Matthew 5:32)
• Don't plan for the future. (Matthew 6:34)
• Don't save money. (Matthew 6:19-20)
• Don't become wealthy. (Mark 10:21-25)
• Sell everything and give it to the poor. (Luke 12:33)
• Don't work to obtain food. (John 6:27)
• Don't have sexual urges. (Matthew 5:28)
• Make people want to persecute you. (Matthew 5:11)
• Let everyone know you are better than the rest. (Matthew 5:13-16)
• Take money from those who have no savings and give it to rich investors. (Luke 19:23-26)
• If someone steals from you, don't try to get it back. (Luke 6:30)
• If someone hits you, invite them to do it again. (Matthew 5:39)
• If you lose a lawsuit, give more than the judgment. (Matthew 5:40)
• If someone forces you to walk a mile, walk two miles. (Matthew 5:41)
• If anyone asks you for anything, give it to them without question. (Matthew 5:42)
Secondly, you didn't address my other question, do you think the bible is an accurate depiction of history?
The Bible isn't a fully accurate source of history. One could argue that it's a mix of Theological writing and some bits and pieces of history in it. Not to mention the Bible has been rewritten and re-edited so many times it's hard to point out who got it right first.
Would you seriously believe, word for word that Genesis happened?
Also, a lot of things in the Bible aren't meant to be taken literally. If you were to take, Matthew 5:28 means, hold your dick, so to speak. Don't let sex and sexual urges run your life. Mark 10:21-25, means you don't become attached to worldly posessions. heck, if Christians who take the Bible literally would take it litersally, they should already be dead by virtue of what's based on Leviticus and what Jesus said.
Heck, Inspired word of God means influenced people to write this, not literally God saying "HEY WRITE THIS DOWN." or God handing a book to humanity.
To add my own spin to the OP's guestion, I don't bother to convert anyone "no more."
I would consider myself to be well versed in Biology and Cosmology. ( Although, another thread here kindly reminded me I should delve more into Physics and Chemistry. ) A few years ago I engaged in many online debates versus Creationist/Intelligent Design advocates. Although I tend to leave normal "theists" with their own personal believes, since they don't pose a threat to teaching actual science in the class rooms, oppose to repackaged theistic dogma.
After spending a good amount of my free time over the years, I came to the conclusion that arguing with a staunch Creationist is similar to playing chess with a pigeon. It will walk across the board knocking over pieces, eventually taking a crap and fly off to its flock to proclaim victory. You can bring them all the evidence they ask and write pages upon pages of well constructed replies, they will still keep to their stubborn beliefs.
Humans are naturally afraid of the unknown. That is always going to be true no matter how advanced and knowledgable we become of the universe. There is also a sense of order and justice that people want to believe in. Like there is purpose to their lives and those who are evil ( in their beliefs ) to them are punished.
Not all Christians are like that. I'm a Christian and I approve of gay marriage. Christians who hate on gay people or any people for that matter, are hypocritical. Jesus told us to love one another. But a lot of Christians have mistreated gay people, and that's something that needs to be changed.
But people wrote about them, what makes the authors of the gospel any less credible than the ones that wrote about Cleopatra?
People who have a vested interest writing about a superhero with magical powers versus more diverse, objective, and disinterested parties writing about a realistic person. Hmmm.... was that a serious question?
You might call it lucky, but I and many other people of my faith believe it was a miracle.
I experience the exact same miracle every time I drink a beer. That's what the liver does. Constantly.
When you see someone cut an ocean in half to allow people to pass through - that's a miracle. Your experience was about as much a miracle as getting dressed in the morning would be. The other people of your faith will believe anything is a miracle because they need to in order to maintain their shoddy beliefs. If you need a miracle and you aren't seeing any, you change the definition so that common, natural events are now miracles. Its one of many examples of the kind of lies that people tell themselves in order to maintain their beliefs.
I've read the Bible, and just because bad things happen in it doesn't mean it's a bad book or that God condones those kinds of things. The Bible's purpose is to be a history book that covers the past. The reason why you see so much genealogy is because it's important to Jewish people.
I don't believe you. You wouldn't make this statement if you had read the OT. Many of the horrid acts are performed by God, or because he demanded them to be done, or under his watchful and approving eye. I never mentioned the genealogies because that's not what I was talking about. Those are merely annoying.
And no, you can't ignore the OT. Jesus himself refers to the OT as the ultimate word of God.
You might call it lucky, but I and many other people of my faith believe it was a miracle.
Obviously I don't think that was a miracle. You took a bunch of pills and your body's survival mechanisms took over and rejected the intake of poison. If you told me that a bus hit you going to 50 miles an hour and bounced off causing you no harm what so ever, THAT would be a miracle. You didn't even experience a rare statistical anomaly. People try to kill themselves every day with poison and fail.
People who try to kill themselves with guns or by jumping from tall buildings though... "Miracles" saving their lives happen MUCT less often.
What is happening here is the tendency to give credit to God every time anything good happens, while ignoring the people that died during Sandy. Did your God not have a hand in that mess?
Not all Christians are like that. I'm a Christian and I approve of gay marriage. Christians who hate on gay people or any people for that matter, are hypocritical. Jesus told us to love one another. But a lot of Christians have mistreated gay people, and that's something that needs to be changed.
This only tells me you don't derive your morality from the Bible (a good thing I might add). If you did you would be obligated to condemn homosexual people to death.
The Bible isn't a fully accurate source of history. One could argue that it's a mix of Theological writing and some bits and pieces of history in it. Not to mention the Bible has been rewritten and re-edited so many times it's hard to point out who got it right first.
Would you seriously believe, word for word that Genesis happened?
There are MILLIONS of people in the united states the believe Genesis is an accurate depiction of the beginning of the universe. Not in a metaphorical sense, but in a literal sense.
Also, a lot of things in the Bible aren't meant to be taken literally. If you were to take, Matthew 5:28 means, hold your dick, so to speak. Don't let sex and sexual urges run your life. Mark 10:21-25, means you don't become attached to worldly posessions. heck, if Christians who take the Bible literally would take it litersally, they should already be dead by virtue of what's based on Leviticus and what Jesus said.
At this point in human culture the bible can't typically be taken literally because of it's ridiculous nature. But when it was written it was meant to be taken literally. People were burned alive for trying to liken the bible to metaphor.
I experience the exact same miracle every time I drink a beer. That's what the liver does. Constantly.
When you see someone cut an ocean in half to allow people to pass through - that's a miracle. Your experience was about as much a miracle as getting dressed in the morning would be. The other people of your faith will believe anything is a miracle because they need to in order to maintain their shoddy beliefs. If you need a miracle and you aren't seeing any, you change the definition so that common, natural events are now miracles. Its one of many examples of the kind of lies that people tell themselves in order to maintain their beliefs.
Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
But when it was written it was meant to be taken literally.
Uh, not necessarily. For instance, Paul was writing letters to churches. He had no intention of his letters becoming equated with the "word of God". Similarly, Luke was written as "accounts" and collections of eyewitness testimonies. Visions are often metaphors as the visions God grants are often in the form of metaphors (for instance, Zechariah). Etc.
That does nothing to dispel that your god is unchanging, unless you are stating that your god did change - in which case he lied.
I would say that you are just cherry picking what you like and glossing over what you don't like.
For example, here are some of the teaching of Jesus I'm sure you don't follow or believe:
• If you do something wrong with your eye or hand, cut/pluck it off (Matthew 5:29-30, in a sexual context).
• Marrying a divorced woman is adultery. (Matthew 5:32)
• Don't plan for the future. (Matthew 6:34)
• Don't save money. (Matthew 6:19-20)
• Don't become wealthy. (Mark 10:21-25)
• Sell everything and give it to the poor. (Luke 12:33)
• Don't work to obtain food. (John 6:27)
• Don't have sexual urges. (Matthew 5:28)
• Make people want to persecute you. (Matthew 5:11)
• Let everyone know you are better than the rest. (Matthew 5:13-16)
• Take money from those who have no savings and give it to rich investors. (Luke 19:23-26)
• If someone steals from you, don't try to get it back. (Luke 6:30)
• If someone hits you, invite them to do it again. (Matthew 5:39)
• If you lose a lawsuit, give more than the judgment. (Matthew 5:40)
• If someone forces you to walk a mile, walk two miles. (Matthew 5:41)
• If anyone asks you for anything, give it to them without question. (Matthew 5:42)
Secondly, you didn't address my other question, do you think the bible is an accurate depiction of history?
God doesn't change, but the Old Testament laws only applies to the Jews because most Christians are gentiles.
The same reason theists try to convert other atheist.
When two people believe in contradicting things, it means one of them is wrong. No one likes to be wrong. So they try to surround themselves with other people that believe the same thing. makes them feel better
God doesn't change, but the Old Testament laws only applies to the Jews because most Christians are gentiles.
Okay, so lemme get this straight:
1. So your god gave a bunch of laws/commandments to his chosen people that he wanted them (the Jews) to follow but no one else.
2. Jesus is the son of God, basically just tells his followers, "Hey my dad made all these laws/commandments, but you don't have to follow them because you're not Jews"
Is that right?
Okay, I guess that's one way to interpret the passages. Funny thing about the bible though, it's not very clear or consistent. So you'll find Christians who say the exact opposite of what you're saying.
How do you feel about the 10 commandments? Should Christians follow those or should they toss them out?
There are MILLIONS of people in the united states the believe Genesis is an accurate depiction of the beginning of the universe. Not in a metaphorical sense, but in a literal sense.
Again, there are millions of people the believe the Bible is the literal and unalterable word of God.
Unfortunately it also depends on the Christian denomination as well.
As far as I know, most of the Protestant groups out there take the Bible as is, as in final, no interpretation. (Which is the majority in the USA I believe.)
Other groups like Catholics (well, at least those who were educated about the word of god.) say you have to read between the lines and take to consideration that it isn't literal.
All and all, you could blame the group or the person for their own version of religious zealotry and idiocy.
2. Jesus is the son of God, basically just tells his followers, "Hey my dad made all these laws/commandments, but you don't have to follow them because you're not Jews"
His followers were Jews. It wasn't until they started spreading the religion beyond Judea that the issue came up, and this Jewish Old Covenant vs. universal New Covenant idea was formalized.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I've read the Bible, and just because bad things happen in it doesn't mean it's a bad book or that God condones those kinds of things. The Bible's purpose is to be a history book that covers the past. The reason why you see so much genealogy is because it's important to Jewish people.
I don't believe you. You wouldn't make this statement if you had read the OT. Many of the horrid acts are performed by God, or because he demanded them to be done, or under his watchful and approving eye. I never mentioned the genealogies because that's not what I was talking about. Those are merely annoying.
And no, you can't ignore the OT. Jesus himself refers to the OT as the ultimate word of God.
You might call it lucky, but I and many other people of my faith believe it was a miracle.
Obviously I don't think that was a miracle. You took a bunch of pills and your body's survival mechanisms took over and rejected the intake of poison. If you told me that a bus hit you going to 50 miles an hour and bounced off causing you no harm what so ever, THAT would be a miracle. You didn't even experience a rare statistical anomaly. People try to kill themselves every day with poison and fail.
People who try to kill themselves with guns or by jumping from tall buildings though... "Miracles" saving their lives happen MUCT less often.
What is happening here is the tendency to give credit to God every time anything good happens, while ignoring the people that died during Sandy. Did your God not have a hand in that mess?
Not all Christians are like that. I'm a Christian and I approve of gay marriage. Christians who hate on gay people or any people for that matter, are hypocritical. Jesus told us to love one another. But a lot of Christians have mistreated gay people, and that's something that needs to be changed.
This only tells me you don't derive your morality from the Bible (a good thing I might add). If you did you would be obligated to condemn homosexual people to death.
The Bible isn't a fully accurate source of history. One could argue that it's a mix of Theological writing and some bits and pieces of history in it. Not to mention the Bible has been rewritten and re-edited so many times it's hard to point out who got it right first.
Would you seriously believe, word for word that Genesis happened?
There are MILLIONS of people in the united states the believe Genesis is an accurate depiction of the beginning of the universe. Not in a metaphorical sense, but in a literal sense.
Also, a lot of things in the Bible aren't meant to be taken literally. If you were to take, Matthew 5:28 means, hold your dick, so to speak. Don't let sex and sexual urges run your life. Mark 10:21-25, means you don't become attached to worldly posessions. heck, if Christians who take the Bible literally would take it litersally, they should already be dead by virtue of what's based on Leviticus and what Jesus said.
At this point in human culture the bible can't typically be taken literally because of it's ridiculous nature. But when it was written it was meant to be taken literally. People were burned alive for trying to liken the bible to metaphor.
I experience the exact same miracle every time I drink a beer. That's what the liver does. Constantly.
When you see someone cut an ocean in half to allow people to pass through - that's a miracle. Your experience was about as much a miracle as getting dressed in the morning would be. The other people of your faith will believe anything is a miracle because they need to in order to maintain their shoddy beliefs. If you need a miracle and you aren't seeing any, you change the definition so that common, natural events are now miracles. Its one of many examples of the kind of lies that people tell themselves in order to maintain their beliefs.
Tru dat.
I read the OT, but I don't remember everything. My memory became very faulty after I overdosed on my medication.
Not all Christians are like that. I'm a Christian and I approve of gay marriage. Christians who hate on gay people or any people for that matter, are hypocritical. Jesus told us to love one another. But a lot of Christians have mistreated gay people, and that's something that needs to be changed.
But people wrote about them, what makes the authors of the gospel any less credible than the ones that wrote about Cleopatra?
People who have a vested interest writing about a superhero with magical powers versus more diverse, objective, and disinterested parties writing about a realistic person. Hmmm.... was that a serious question?
You might call it lucky, but I and many other people of my faith believe it was a miracle.
I experience the exact same miracle every time I drink a beer. That's what the liver does. Constantly.
When you see someone cut an ocean in half to allow people to pass through - that's a miracle. Your experience was about as much a miracle as getting dressed in the morning would be. The other people of your faith will believe anything is a miracle because they need to in order to maintain their shoddy beliefs. If you need a miracle and you aren't seeing any, you change the definition so that common, natural events are now miracles. Its one of many examples of the kind of lies that people tell themselves in order to maintain their beliefs.
To both of you: Also, if you think taking 20 200mg pills of Seroquel is the same as taking a drink of alcohol, then by all means overdose on Seroquel and see where it gets you.
Obviously I don't think that was a miracle. You took a bunch of pills and your body's survival mechanisms took over and rejected the intake of poison. If you told me that a bus hit you going to 50 miles an hour and bounced off causing you no harm what so ever, THAT would be a miracle. You didn't even experience a rare statistical anomaly. People try to kill themselves every day with poison and fail.
People who try to kill themselves with guns or by jumping from tall buildings though... "Miracles" saving their lives happen MUCT less often.
Getting hit by oncoming traffic is no fun. I certainly considered it a miracle that I've survived and only had to deal with a slight limp in my walk for the past few years.
But let's be honest here folks. Personal experiences aren't going to sway believers and non-believers one way or the other. So they don't really serve debates any more than the believers side to go "I hear your arguments, but my personal experience says otherwise so I choose to step off this discussion".
You might call it lucky, but I and many other people of my faith believe it was a miracle.
This kind of argument always kind bothers me. So we should a situation where you got lucky and survived as a miracle and evidence of god.
So then, should we take situations where people are not lucky and didn't survive as evidence that there aren't miracles and evidence of god's nonexistence?
To both of you: Also, if you think taking 20 200mg pills of Seroquel is the same as taking a drink of alcohol, then by all means overdose on Seroquel and see where it gets you.
It doesn't matter how many you take. It matters how much your body absorbs before rejecting it. You can't change the statistical fact that consuming pills is one of the more unreliable ways to commit suicide. If you had picked a more reliable way of committing suicide the chances of an anomaly which saves your life is much less likely to happen.
Here is my "miracle story":
I was in college and driving to to my job where I was an intern. I had to take a lot of deserted county roads (rural area) and I would routinely zone out. One way I zoned completely out, on the verge of sleeping with the cruse control on. As I approached a major intersection I simply didn't register the stop sign and went through it going 60-65mph. The road I was approaching was bowed and I became airborne for a moment before landing on a gravel road on the other side, slamming on the breaks and spinning 180 degrees just in time to see two semi truck pass from both directions missing me by a mere second or two. Had I taken just 2-5 seconds longer to leave the house I would have died.
Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
It's also missing the fact that, no matter how unlikely something is, that's not evidence of anything other than that rare things happen. Heck, if it were something thought to be literally impossible, all that means is that we were wrong about what we thought was possible. You can't get from "strange" or even "impossible" event to "god did it."
To both of you: Also, if you think taking 20 200mg pills of Seroquel is the same as taking a drink of alcohol, then by all means overdose on Seroquel and see where it gets you.
It might get me a little somnolence, dizziness, and faster heartbeat, and that's about it.
My drug guide tells me that an adult has died as low as 10.8 grams of quetiapine, but other patients have survived overdoses of 36 grams. That 4 gram dose that you took was not a suicide attempt, it was and apparently still is attention seeking behaviour. If you really intended to commit suicide, well, I'm sure there's tall buildings where you live. If you jumped off one and God intervened to give you a safe landing, that would be a miracle. What you experienced was normal organ function - your liver broke it down and your kidneys (mostly) excreted it out.
You realize that when you pick up a bible and begin reading form page 1 you will spend hours and hours not reading about Jesus as you drudge your way through the OT. That entire book is a horror show. Child abuse, incest, rape, gang rape, murder, genocide, infanticide, and all manner of ideas that outrage the mind of a reasonable person. I'm still amazed that the vast majority of people that call themselves christians have never read the bible cover to cover.
I think Jesus, or someone like him, probably existed. But as I said, with the massive number of alterations, mistranslations, omissions, and additions we don't even know what the orginal versions of the bible actually said. But let’s assume we had the original text, would it matter?
I say no, it doesn't. The original text was written at best decades after the events of Jesus’ life are said to have taken place. Paul never met Jesus. He supposedly came to know Jesus from divine revelation. He never mentions the virgin birth...or the flight from Jerusalem... Since we, the human race, have learned how to document events with a skeptic eye, and since we have developed the tools to actually describe the world around us, miracles of an explicit nature have stopped happening. By this I mean no one is turning water into wine. The dead are not brought back to life with nothing more than a prayer. No supernatural event has been observed in a lab.
I believe this is because no miracle has ever happened. I believe miracles of the past were either stories or bad explanations for events that were mystifying to our ancestors. That being the case, there is also a great deal of mumbo jumbo in the NT as well.
This. To make this argument I have to assume you have not read most of the bible, and hence you do not understand how insane most of it is when viewed from the perspective of a rational mind.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
I am an Atheist because i dont see a need for religion imo religious beliefs have caused more deaths than drunk driving ever dared to. The second reason is because im not closed minded and dont want to make others feel alienated bye beliefs. Because honestly no matter how hard you believe something it wont always come true any kid ever lied to about Santa could tell you that. My point is that Religion is another form of baggage that others use to push people around and make them feel bad for living there life the way they want to.
Religion causes a lot of fights and disagreements because peoples views are drastically different. Christians are quick to put homosexuals on the chopping block but when a Muslim following there beliefs kills an infidel it is an act of terror. Its actually more terrifying to think that one is thought to be different because its more peaceful than the other. Its still wrong to bully people because your God says to do so.
I try to get people to change there minds because they dont always know what they are getting into. Religion to me is nothing more than cleverly dressed brain washing with a message of hope. Do x and y you will succeed in all things because your God is on your side. That to me is silly its just a crutch for people who have no faith in themselves and dont want to feel the responsibility of failure so they have something convenient to point to when things dont go there way Aka the antagonist of the religious tale.
Whats wrong with wanting people to learn to be responsible for there own lives, to be self aware and know who they are not who there religion tells them they are. If you have a solid plausible reason to believe thats fine but having a belief for the sake of one or just because its traditional in the family is silly and reinforces my idea of brainwashing. Im willing to go so far as to say i will have a lot of people angry at me for no reason other than the fact im not religious and refuse to believe in something they do.
:symu:::symr:UR Facts:symu::symr:
I've read the Bible, and just because bad things happen in it doesn't mean it's a bad book or that God condones those kinds of things. The Bible's purpose is to be a history book that covers the past. The reason why you see so much genealogy is because it's important to Jewish people.
As for miracles, I had one happen to me a few years ago. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157686&postcount=136
You might call it lucky, but I and many other people of my faith believe it was a miracle.
Not all Christians are like that. I'm a Christian and I approve of gay marriage. Christians who hate on gay people or any people for that matter, are hypocritical. Jesus told us to love one another. But a lot of Christians have mistreated gay people, and that's something that needs to be changed.
:symu:::symr:UR Facts:symu::symr:
Now to me, when religion tries to convert people it is like taking that necktie and trying to tighten it around someone who doesn't want or need that necktie. The necktie is not necessary for that person to live a prosperous or happy or benevolent life, some people will live their entire life without even knowing what a necktie is, or not putting a necktie on, or want one. But when atheists, and we'll say they're the people that don't wear neckties, try to "convert" theists into disproving their religion as false and they should move away from its ideals, its like atheists trying to tear the necktie off of the people who like to wear them.
It should all boil down to the simple concept of "whatever floats your boat." If you like Jesus and believe that his existence is a fact, and his moral standards lead you to live a good life that doesnt harm others, good for you. If you don't believe in Jesus, but you still live a good life that doesn't harm others, good for you.
But people aren't like that. People want other people to think the way they think so that one of those people will be "right." But why should anyone give a Ravenous Rats' ass about what they believe in if it affects you in no way, shape, or form. Dio is proud to be faithful, and if he's living a life as the good Christian he claims to be, then why does it matter if he believes in Jesus or not? Why does it matter that you need to prove someone like Oldaughd that you are right? Why does Oldaughd need to prove Dio wrong? Why can't the two, and the whole rest of the world, just agree to believe in what they want and live their lives?
Because people naturally fear and despise differences. Comfort comes through agreement, that peace of mind that so and so is a believer in this and that so I can trust him. But if he and him don't believe in what I believe in, they are wrong, they're a threat to my ideological integrity, and I need to do my best to keep them from believing the wrong thing. But that's all it is, everything, theism and atheism, they're just beliefs. No one should be seen as person less of a person because of what they do or don't believe in. And personally, whether you do it in the name of God, Buddha, Allah, or for no one in particular, as long as you aren't hurting anyone in any way and contributing to the betterment of humanity, it doesn't matter what you believe.
Because you're wrong. Same as I try to convert people into untapping before drawing their card for the turn.
Actually the bible is supposed to be inspired by god and is considered the word of god.
The god of the bible, states that he doesn't change and God does condone genocide and rape, human sacrifice, killing children for disobeying their parents, etc.
If you think the bible is a history book, how can you ignore the OT and state that it's just for Jews?
Do you think the whole bible is an accurate depiction of history or just some parts? What evidence can you produce that supports your claims? If only some parts, Which parts of the bible are historically accurate? How do you know which are accurate which are not accurate? What evidence can you produce that supports your claims?
Yes, but your unchanging god commands that gays should be put to death.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-law.html
That does nothing to dispel that your god is unchanging, unless you are stating that your god did change - in which case he lied.
I would say that you are just cherry picking what you like and glossing over what you don't like.
For example, here are some of the teaching of Jesus I'm sure you don't follow or believe:
• If you do something wrong with your eye or hand, cut/pluck it off (Matthew 5:29-30, in a sexual context).
• Marrying a divorced woman is adultery. (Matthew 5:32)
• Don't plan for the future. (Matthew 6:34)
• Don't save money. (Matthew 6:19-20)
• Don't become wealthy. (Mark 10:21-25)
• Sell everything and give it to the poor. (Luke 12:33)
• Don't work to obtain food. (John 6:27)
• Don't have sexual urges. (Matthew 5:28)
• Make people want to persecute you. (Matthew 5:11)
• Let everyone know you are better than the rest. (Matthew 5:13-16)
• Take money from those who have no savings and give it to rich investors. (Luke 19:23-26)
• If someone steals from you, don't try to get it back. (Luke 6:30)
• If someone hits you, invite them to do it again. (Matthew 5:39)
• If you lose a lawsuit, give more than the judgment. (Matthew 5:40)
• If someone forces you to walk a mile, walk two miles. (Matthew 5:41)
• If anyone asks you for anything, give it to them without question. (Matthew 5:42)
Secondly, you didn't address my other question, do you think the bible is an accurate depiction of history?
Would you seriously believe, word for word that Genesis happened?
Also, a lot of things in the Bible aren't meant to be taken literally. If you were to take, Matthew 5:28 means, hold your dick, so to speak. Don't let sex and sexual urges run your life. Mark 10:21-25, means you don't become attached to worldly posessions. heck, if Christians who take the Bible literally would take it litersally, they should already be dead by virtue of what's based on Leviticus and what Jesus said.
Heck, Inspired word of God means influenced people to write this, not literally God saying "HEY WRITE THIS DOWN." or God handing a book to humanity.
Sasky for the Sig.
I am in your [PACK]. Watching you... do... something.
I would consider myself to be well versed in Biology and Cosmology. ( Although, another thread here kindly reminded me I should delve more into Physics and Chemistry. ) A few years ago I engaged in many online debates versus Creationist/Intelligent Design advocates. Although I tend to leave normal "theists" with their own personal believes, since they don't pose a threat to teaching actual science in the class rooms, oppose to repackaged theistic dogma.
After spending a good amount of my free time over the years, I came to the conclusion that arguing with a staunch Creationist is similar to playing chess with a pigeon. It will walk across the board knocking over pieces, eventually taking a crap and fly off to its flock to proclaim victory. You can bring them all the evidence they ask and write pages upon pages of well constructed replies, they will still keep to their stubborn beliefs.
Humans are naturally afraid of the unknown. That is always going to be true no matter how advanced and knowledgable we become of the universe. There is also a sense of order and justice that people want to believe in. Like there is purpose to their lives and those who are evil ( in their beliefs ) to them are punished.
People who have a vested interest writing about a superhero with magical powers versus more diverse, objective, and disinterested parties writing about a realistic person. Hmmm.... was that a serious question?
I experience the exact same miracle every time I drink a beer. That's what the liver does. Constantly.
When you see someone cut an ocean in half to allow people to pass through - that's a miracle. Your experience was about as much a miracle as getting dressed in the morning would be. The other people of your faith will believe anything is a miracle because they need to in order to maintain their shoddy beliefs. If you need a miracle and you aren't seeing any, you change the definition so that common, natural events are now miracles. Its one of many examples of the kind of lies that people tell themselves in order to maintain their beliefs.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
I don't believe you. You wouldn't make this statement if you had read the OT. Many of the horrid acts are performed by God, or because he demanded them to be done, or under his watchful and approving eye. I never mentioned the genealogies because that's not what I was talking about. Those are merely annoying.
And no, you can't ignore the OT. Jesus himself refers to the OT as the ultimate word of God.
Obviously I don't think that was a miracle. You took a bunch of pills and your body's survival mechanisms took over and rejected the intake of poison. If you told me that a bus hit you going to 50 miles an hour and bounced off causing you no harm what so ever, THAT would be a miracle. You didn't even experience a rare statistical anomaly. People try to kill themselves every day with poison and fail.
People who try to kill themselves with guns or by jumping from tall buildings though... "Miracles" saving their lives happen MUCT less often.
What is happening here is the tendency to give credit to God every time anything good happens, while ignoring the people that died during Sandy. Did your God not have a hand in that mess?
This only tells me you don't derive your morality from the Bible (a good thing I might add). If you did you would be obligated to condemn homosexual people to death.
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There are MILLIONS of people in the united states the believe Genesis is an accurate depiction of the beginning of the universe. Not in a metaphorical sense, but in a literal sense.
At this point in human culture the bible can't typically be taken literally because of it's ridiculous nature. But when it was written it was meant to be taken literally. People were burned alive for trying to liken the bible to metaphor.
Again, there are millions of people the believe the Bible is the literal and unalterable word of God.
Tru dat.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
Uh, not necessarily. For instance, Paul was writing letters to churches. He had no intention of his letters becoming equated with the "word of God". Similarly, Luke was written as "accounts" and collections of eyewitness testimonies. Visions are often metaphors as the visions God grants are often in the form of metaphors (for instance, Zechariah). Etc.
God doesn't change, but the Old Testament laws only applies to the Jews because most Christians are gentiles.
When two people believe in contradicting things, it means one of them is wrong. No one likes to be wrong. So they try to surround themselves with other people that believe the same thing. makes them feel better
Okay, so lemme get this straight:
1. So your god gave a bunch of laws/commandments to his chosen people that he wanted them (the Jews) to follow but no one else.
2. Jesus is the son of God, basically just tells his followers, "Hey my dad made all these laws/commandments, but you don't have to follow them because you're not Jews"
Is that right?
Okay, I guess that's one way to interpret the passages. Funny thing about the bible though, it's not very clear or consistent. So you'll find Christians who say the exact opposite of what you're saying.
How do you feel about the 10 commandments? Should Christians follow those or should they toss them out?
Unfortunately it also depends on the Christian denomination as well.
As far as I know, most of the Protestant groups out there take the Bible as is, as in final, no interpretation. (Which is the majority in the USA I believe.)
Other groups like Catholics (well, at least those who were educated about the word of god.) say you have to read between the lines and take to consideration that it isn't literal.
All and all, you could blame the group or the person for their own version of religious zealotry and idiocy.
Sasky for the Sig.
I am in your [PACK]. Watching you... do... something.
His followers were Jews. It wasn't until they started spreading the religion beyond Judea that the issue came up, and this Jewish Old Covenant vs. universal New Covenant idea was formalized.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I read the OT, but I don't remember everything. My memory became very faulty after I overdosed on my medication.
To both of you: Also, if you think taking 20 200mg pills of Seroquel is the same as taking a drink of alcohol, then by all means overdose on Seroquel and see where it gets you.
Getting hit by oncoming traffic is no fun. I certainly considered it a miracle that I've survived and only had to deal with a slight limp in my walk for the past few years.
But let's be honest here folks. Personal experiences aren't going to sway believers and non-believers one way or the other. So they don't really serve debates any more than the believers side to go "I hear your arguments, but my personal experience says otherwise so I choose to step off this discussion".
This kind of argument always kind bothers me. So we should a situation where you got lucky and survived as a miracle and evidence of god.
So then, should we take situations where people are not lucky and didn't survive as evidence that there aren't miracles and evidence of god's nonexistence?
It doesn't matter how many you take. It matters how much your body absorbs before rejecting it. You can't change the statistical fact that consuming pills is one of the more unreliable ways to commit suicide. If you had picked a more reliable way of committing suicide the chances of an anomaly which saves your life is much less likely to happen.
Here is my "miracle story":
I was in college and driving to to my job where I was an intern. I had to take a lot of deserted county roads (rural area) and I would routinely zone out. One way I zoned completely out, on the verge of sleeping with the cruse control on. As I approached a major intersection I simply didn't register the stop sign and went through it going 60-65mph. The road I was approaching was bowed and I became airborne for a moment before landing on a gravel road on the other side, slamming on the breaks and spinning 180 degrees just in time to see two semi truck pass from both directions missing me by a mere second or two. Had I taken just 2-5 seconds longer to leave the house I would have died.
This was not a miracle. I got lucky.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
My drug guide tells me that an adult has died as low as 10.8 grams of quetiapine, but other patients have survived overdoses of 36 grams. That 4 gram dose that you took was not a suicide attempt, it was and apparently still is attention seeking behaviour. If you really intended to commit suicide, well, I'm sure there's tall buildings where you live. If you jumped off one and God intervened to give you a safe landing, that would be a miracle. What you experienced was normal organ function - your liver broke it down and your kidneys (mostly) excreted it out.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.