Before you start on your spiel, I'll have you know that I am personally an extremely committed atheist.
I did go through a phase in my life where I couldn't stop trying to debate believers and slam them down with my arguments. So, I can understand if you're an angsty teen who needs to rebel a bit and feel superior
However, to the older atheist debaters out there (if there are any), and to lesser extent, the younger atheists, what's the point of debating these issues? Theists aren't going to see the truth if you go around pointing out flaws in their belief system. There are built in defense mechanisms in religion to stop that kind of stuff from getting through to their heads (see "thou shalt not tempt the lord").
But the most important reason why you're not going to convince anyone is that most believers are indoctrinated from childhood, sometimes birth. That's why religion is so hard to get rid of.
So, I ask of you, don't waste your time trying to debate people on an internet forum. It's an absolute waste of time. If you're trying to troll, I mean, go ahead, but don't take it seriously.
However, if you really want to do something about religion, focus on promoting education for kids in religious areas. Try to help kids learn critical thinking and teach them to question everything they're taught, even if it seems really basic.
I'm willing to bet, if every single kid in the world was raised in a separate, educated society until they were 18, and then introduced to religion, they'd toss it out the door like Santa Claus. I guess there's a flaw to that plan, since they might have a lot of religious influence around them (they might live in a religious community or home, or go to a religious school, have religious friends, etc.).
My point is, you can't start with the current believers. You have to change the next generation, not the current one.
Because theists cause widespread misery on the world because of the divine drive to be proven right. They have to save the world because that's what they're religion dictates. But they only save the world by making the world uniform and destroying what's not uniform. That's why we want to 'convert' Theists. Theists cause nothing but widespread mischief from a world-view ased on ignorance.
It depends. There are some open minded theists out there. Then there are the ones where the debate starts and ends with their profession of faith. The former can be fun to have conversation with. The later I tend to avoid.
However, to the older atheist debaters out there (if there are any), and to lesser extent, the younger atheists, what's the point of debating these issues? Theists aren't going to see the truth if you go around pointing out flaws in their belief system. There are built in defense mechanisms in religion to stop that kind of stuff from getting through to their heads (see "thou shalt not tempt the lord").
There are many reasons why one might wish to debate. Sometimes it can be good practice simply for helping you to clarify, refine and strengthen your own position. Debate can be experienced as a worthwhile and even gratifying mental exercise.
Much more than that, however, you paint theists with too broad a brush. There are some, indeed, who are just as heavily indoctrinated as you say. But many others feel skeptical about their beliefs to some degree; and some of those people are able to acknowledge that they might be quite wrong about the nature of things. And a few such people actually do leave their faith on account of having had provocative and stimulating (but above all patient and respectful) dialogue with atheists.
Whether the issue at hand is religion, politics, or something less contentious, you can't approach someone else with the assumption that they'll not listen to what you have to say.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Love. Forgive. Trust. Be willing to be broken that you may be remade.
I personally believe, through my (maybe twisted) view of the world, that man kind will be better off without religion.
I see it as if not my duty then my passion to make the world a better place for all. I want our race to survive and advance. If I only convert one person, then I feel I've made the world a better place for man kind as a whole. And to raise the odds, why not try on as many people as possible. Even if I fail to covert Mr. Already Believer (which is the case more often than not), at least the debate was fun.
Disclaimer: just my opinion... Not trying to offend o.O . You believe what you want and do your thing.
Isn't what you're doing exactly what the theists are doing? Instead of saying "You SHOULD believe in God etc etc", you're saying "You SHOULDN'T believe in God etc etc". I believe in God but I haven't tried to force anyone into believing as well. The least I do is to show them that there IS the option of believing, and if that person chooses to do so, I can help them, but ultimately I believe it has to be a personal decision.
To be fair I also find faults in atheism (and agnosticism for that matter as well).
Because theists cause widespread misery on the world because of the divine drive to be proven right. They have to save the world because that's what they're religion dictates. But they only save the world by making the world uniform and destroying what's not uniform. That's why we want to 'convert' Theists. Theists cause nothing but widespread mischief from a world-view ased on ignorance.
To be close to true, this needs to be edited with numerous qualifiers so you're not actually insinuating that this is what all theists do. As it stands, it is false and quite inflammatory towards reasonable theists.
No, really. It's not going to change their mind instantaneously, but I can point you to a number of people for whom the defining moment in their deconversion was losing a debate, or wondering why they could never seem to win a debate.
Because in a marketplace of ideas, you get exactly nowhere by shutting up and sitting at the back of the bus. If we really think that it is true that theism is an intellectually unsustainable position, not to mention the harm it's doing in the world, why wouldn't we say so?
Isn't what you're doing exactly what the theists are doing? Instead of saying "You SHOULD believe in God etc etc", you're saying "You SHOULDN'T believe in God etc etc". I believe in God but I haven't tried to force anyone into believing as well. The least I do is to show them that there IS the option of believing, and if that person chooses to do so, I can help them, but ultimately I believe it has to be a personal decision.
To be fair I also find faults in atheism (and agnosticism for that matter as well).
Before I continue, I would like to point out that not all theists are this way, but in my experiences, most are.
I feel like if I don't make a effort, than the world would stay crippled. While your cause is noble in some respects, giving people blind happiness and comfort. It doest realy help man kind at all. It gives them a crutch, a place to put blame other than themselves. (And here's the part about 'not all theists, but a lot') religion teaches people to not get along, pretty much. Why can't homosexuals experience marrage? Maybe it will make them happier and more productive in society. "Well, obviously because scripture says so!". And a lot of people try to punish intelligence as blaspheme, take Galileo for example. Sentenced to execution for observing that Jupiter has moons that orbit it? Well he got out of execution, but still had to live under house arrest for the rest of his life. Think of what a great mind like his could have accomplished in his last years but was denied by the church. And think of how many people could have been great, but were afraid of the churchs iron fist. Of couse things like that wouldn't fly today, at least in the US. But I'm sure it happens on a much smaller scale. Religion as a whole doesn't search for answers, because their supreme answer is god. If we never discovered the mystery behind lightning, we might (depending on our heritage) still believe in Thor, or Zeus. Religion also promotes violence and intolerance (some more than others). Which can be seen everywhere all throughout history. We've seen what religion does (dark ages), and that set our advancement back at least 1,000 years.
In my opinion, its a change that needs to happen, for the betterment of man. But if no one ever puts forth effort, it will never happen. In some ways it is very reminiscent of religion... But we have science behind us.
Isn't what you're doing exactly what the theists are doing? Instead of saying "You SHOULD believe in God etc etc", you're saying "You SHOULDN'T believe in God etc etc". I believe in God but I haven't tried to force anyone into believing as well. The least I do is to show them that there IS the option of believing, and if that person chooses to do so, I can help them, but ultimately I believe it has to be a personal decision.
To be fair I also find faults in atheism (and agnosticism for that matter as well).
The point of education is to give people a choice whether to believe- essentially a more informed opinion. If you've been well educated and have valid evidence to support your statements, then go on ahead and believe. I might follow you if your evidence is simply that overwhelming.
@Pandas I do apologize for overgeneralizing. I suppose that there are rather skeptical theists out there who might consider your words more carefully. I imagine that's why a lot of atheists (like dawkins for ex.) are still at it. As for debate being stimulating, I agree, however religious debate tends to be anything but. In my opinion, debating religion is beating a dead bush- I've been around the arguments and counterarguments enough to give me a headache. I've lost interest in it and have gone on to explore further philosophy.
But if anyone ends up having a religious debate, as you said, being respectful is extremely key.
On the whole, I still feel like the best approach is education and more exposure to different ideas as children. I know if I was exposed to atheism and other beliefs more as a child, I wouldn't have had such a difficult time letting go of my beliefs, which were widely accepted by my family and community.
@Everyone else
I also see ridding the world of religion as a sort of moral obligation as well. It's just does so much harm to critical thinking and individualism. But I don't feel like trying to step into every religious person's life is the way to go about it. Posting inflammatory thread titles like "Can God make a rock so big that he can't move it?" isn't going to help anyone. If someone really wants help and input on their religion, I'd imagine they'd come to you.
That's why I feel that education of the next generation is the way to fo about it.
I'm not sure what you condider "older", but I'm 24 and I am an atheist. I actively discuss atheism with anyone who is willing, and I have several reasons for this.
1. I think religion is a negative force in this world, and we would be better off without it.
2. I enjoy a good discussion, and I like to hear other peoples' opinions and understand their perspectives.
3. I really like arguing. It's fun for me. The best is when I'm totally rational and cool and level headed, and somebody feels the need to scream at me to justify their position. I LIVE for that moment. It translates pretty well to internet arguments as well.
I'm willing to bet, if every single kid in the world was raised in a separate, educated society until they were 18, and then introduced to religion, they'd toss it out the door like Santa Claus. I guess there's a flaw to that plan, since they might have a lot of religious influence around them (they might live in a religious community or home, or go to a religious school, have religious friends, etc.).
.
You put a lot of work into sounding respectful and reasonable but throw most of it away with this.
You're making the assumption that a well informed individual would never choose religion and that itself is just insulting.
When people make errors I am happy to correct them. Most of the ones making blatantly false claims happen to be religious.
I'm not trying to convert them. I have no desire to take anyone's beliefs away nor do I desire others to adopt my belief system. I'm simply pointing out BS when I see it.
Sheer boredom or annoyance, and get people out of their little world a bit. That and a part of me really doesn't care what people believe, only when it starts to limit personal liberties of other people or makes laws that actually make the situation worse (total bans on drugs, prostitution, and abortion).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
You put a lot of work into sounding respectful and reasonable but throw most of it away with this.
You're making the assumption that a well informed individual would never choose religion and that itself is just insulting.
From my reading, it seems more that he's pointing out that someone who relies on objective evidence to form his conclusions would never choose religion - unless some evidence shows up. It seems more like he's pointing out that we use reason to determine even things like when we should cross the street. We don't believe there is no traffic because we really want there to be no traffic, we look at the road and see if there are cars. We look at the light and see if it's green. Imagine if we used faith as a mechanism for street-crossing.
If you start from scratch, without trying to justify religion, and simply ask yourself "what method should I use for examining reality and determining what is most likely to be true" - you end up with trusting evidence and not emotional pulls.
However, if you can demonstrate that faith is more likely or as likely to lead you to correct conclusions than reasoning based on evidence - I, of course, will completely change my mind. This should be an easy experiment to set up.
Sheer boredom or annoyance, and get people out of their little world a bit. That and a part of me really doesn't care what people believe, only when it starts to limit personal liberties of other people or makes laws that actually make the situation worse (total bans on drugs, prostitution, and abortion).
That's essentially what most have been saying. It's fun to annoy theists. Well, I think that's quite subjective. But, as I said, if you get a kick out of trolling theists- hey, it floats your boat. That's none of my concern.
My point is that very little good comes out of these kind of arguments most of the time, so if you (not you personally) are looking to make an impact upon religion in general, focusing on education is a better way to go about it.
You mentioned that personal beliefs don't matter to you unless they infringe on personal liberties. I suppose the right to "free thought" is a personal liberty as well. Unfortunately, no matter what religion you're in, there's always some sort of limiting factor on it, so there's really no excuse to ever think that religion is not doing any harm to society.
From my reading, it seems more that he's pointing out that someone who relies on objective evidence to form his conclusions would never choose religion - unless some evidence shows up. It seems more like he's pointing out that we use reason to determine even things like when we should cross the street. We don't believe there is no traffic because we really want there to be no traffic, we look at the road and see if there are cars. We look at the light and see if it's green. Imagine if we used faith as a mechanism for street-crossing.
If you start from scratch, without trying to justify religion, and simply ask yourself "what method should I use for examining reality and determining what is most likely to be true" - you end up with trusting evidence and not emotional pulls.
However, if you can demonstrate that faith is more likely or as likely to lead you to correct conclusions than reasoning based on evidence - I, of course, will completely change my mind. This should be an easy experiment to set up.
Thank you, Stairc. You've summed up my position quite nicely, much better than I could have.
And also, thank you Walrus Enthusiast. I was waiting for someone to point out that I've taken it as a given that rational people don't believe in religion. I'm not trying to be patronizing here, but I bet the next thing you're about to say is "well this one famous scientist is well-informed and religious," etc. etc. or "I know this one really well-informed guy who goes to my church" etc. etc.
I tried to point out that environment is an extremely important factor in religious choice in my original post. The truth is, if you grow up in a Christian home in a Christian community and went to a Christian school where everyone was Christian, you'd probably end up Christian. Similarly if you grow up in an Islamic home in an Islamic community, etc. Jewish etc. you'd end up probably adhering to that particular religion. So, I'm guessing that many of those "well-informed people" were simply raised in religious homes and decided to follow their faith because that's how they've lived their life so far.
Another reason why "well-informed people" would end up converting to religion is due to social pressure. Have you seen the prejudice people receive for standing up to religion? You can see extreme prejudice in the news in the Middle East, but there's a heck of a lot at home as well- it's just not well publicized and it's widely accepted. Prejudice is a major factor in declaring personal beliefs; for example, my father, a chemical engineer, labels himself as a Christian but views Christian ideology with extreme skepticism. But it's simply more convenient to be "Christian" in a religiously dominated society.
Well, what if those "well-informed people" of yours don't fit into either of those categories? For one thing, there are a lot more factors that influence a someone's life that might turn that person towards religion against his or her better judgment. If a person really wasn't influenced by anything in his or her environment to become a theist and became one anyways, then clearly that person wasn't rational in the first place.
Why?
I think Stairc does a great job in pointing out why justifying religion with logic is impossible. You don't have to rational to be well-informed, or vice versa. The whole concept of being rational lies in using evidence to justify your actions and beliefs.
My point about education was that we need to work towards strengthening critical thinking and rationality in children. Knowledge is important too, but it's more important to think through the knowledge than to just know it.
I think the premise of this thread is about silly. You might as well title it "why do people other trying to convince other people of (insert idea here)"
Personally I would be temped to go the "you can lead a horse to water..." angle when it comes to me trying to convince the average theist of also thinking that their theology is just mythology. But it's not something I'd spend a great deal of time doing personally. Partially from what I think would be the rate of success but mostly because my personal life just doesn't have the sort of time for it. I would and so support atheist organizations and related organizations that seek to improve things like the scientific education of people. But my capacity to do so as a singular individual is limited. I can count the number of times I've had a serious conversation with someone on the issue of their theism on one hand.
To the OP? why are you so worried about something that you claim doesn't exist?
I mean to be worried about all these christains who believe in something you claim doesn't exist shouldn't bother you in one little bit.
who cares what someone else believes? why is it so important to you? if you think it doesn't exist then let it be?
I find it funny to a point that all these athiest organization that claim God doesn't exist spend so much time chasing Him around.
Like an article i saw today some athiest organization decided to unbless a road. the question is how do you unbless something they claim doesn't exist?
However, if you can demonstrate that faith is more likely or as likely to lead you to correct conclusions than reasoning based on evidence - I, of course, will completely change my mind. This should be an easy experiment to set up.
Or a combination of both. i mean they are not totally separate. your car analogy is a little off.
sure you can look left and look right and see if the light is green. you still have faith in the other individuals out there that they will obey the traffic laws.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around. Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Firstly my position my parents raised me Anglician, they attended church most weeks but not every week, I was head of the church play, I was exposed to religion during my childhood. I'm an atheist, I stopped attending church around 12 years old when I told mum it wasn't for me, I didn't believe in it, she was dissapointed but accepting.
Personally I think religion has its place in the world, I have seen it do good. It can help people get through differcult times, the community can be great for meeting new people and the community projects that donationation lead to have a positive benefit for all. This is the aspect of religion I like.
I can understand the feeling of dislike towards religion because of some of the reasons listed above but that isn't a feature of religion as a whole but of a certain kind of person who uses religion to justify their actions, a kind of person that is becoming more prevailent. Calling for the end of religion is wrong though
To the debate topic, why athetist try to convert theists, I do find myself in this position sometimes, generally though it is because a theist is attempting to convert me. I find myself making points and counter-points in essense the reason I attempt to "convert" them is not because I want the world to have one less theist but because you attacked my beliefs and I'm just defending them. In the end no-one wins a debate where beliefs are involved so recently I have just tried to sidestep the issue if it comes up.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
To the OP? why are you so worried about something that you claim doesn't exist?
I mean to be worried about all these christains who believe in something you claim doesn't exist shouldn't bother you in one little bit.
who cares what someone else believes? why is it so important to you? if you think it doesn't exist then let it be?
I find it funny to a point that all these athiest organization that claim God doesn't exist spend so much time chasing Him around.
Like an article i saw today some athiest organization decided to unbless a road. the question is how do you unbless something they claim doesn't exist?
Or a combination of both. i mean they are not totally separate. your car analogy is a little off.
sure you can look left and look right and see if the light is green. you still have faith in the other individuals out there that they will obey the traffic laws.
These sort of posts are pretty much prime example of why threads with a title like this one has is silly. Seriously have you EVER had a class on sociology? Or know that humans are social animals? Or that this concept called history exists that people record to see in part how human beings have effected each other and the world around them?
Religions are ultimately social organizations. Social organizations of great size, age and traditional backed backgrounds can and often do have deep and profound impacts on cultures, which ultimately means other people, laws, customs,etc.
You might as well ask why do people convince others to adopt certain political ideas because hey....people like the ancient greeks who set the groundwork for some of our modern political ideas don't exist anymore. People try to convince other people to have similiar ideas on something ALL the time.
To the OP? why are you so worried about something that you claim doesn't exist?
I mean to be worried about all these christains who believe in something you claim doesn't exist shouldn't bother you in one little bit.
who cares what someone else believes? why is it so important to you? if you think it doesn't exist then let it be?
Let me pose a hypothetical scenario for you.
I assume that you don't believe in Optimus Prime.
Now imagine that you met some people who did, and believe he's the savior of the galaxy. You can casually ignore them probably, the way we ignore flat-earthers.
But now imagine that the vast majority of your country believes in and worships Optimus Prime. Now imagine that significant portions of the country are voting based on which candidate they think best supports Optimus Prime. Furthermore, imagine that people who don't believe in Optimus Prime are constant targets of attack and misinformation. Let's take this further. Imagine that these people were constantly trying to legislate teaching that Optimus Prime is real in science classes and get his battles recorded in history classes as required reading. Now take the idea that these followers are trying to pass laws based on the will of Optimus Prime, among which they believe that Optimus Prime forbids heterosexual couples from marrying. Imagine if Optimus Prime's more extreme followers even assaulted or killed people who denied that Optimus Prime was the great force for good in the galaxy.
Think you might care a bit about all these things that are happening then?
Now imagine that you met some people who did, and believe he's the savior of the galaxy. You can casually ignore them probably, the way we ignore flat-earthers.
But now imagine that the vast majority of your country believes in and worships Optimus Prime. Now imagine that significant portions of the country are voting based on which candidate they think best supports Optimus Prime. Furthermore, imagine that people who don't believe in Optimus Prime are constant targets of attack and misinformation. Let's take this further. Imagine that these people were constantly trying to legislate teaching that Optimus Prime is real in science classes and get his battles recorded in history classes as required reading. Now take the idea that these followers are trying to pass laws based on the will of Optimus Prime, among which they believe that Optimus Prime forbids heterosexual couples from marrying. Imagine if Optimus Prime's more extreme followers even assaulted or killed people who denied that Optimus Prime was the great force for good in the galaxy.
Think you might care a bit about all these things that are happening then?
As the song goes..I'm not afraid of your Yahweh, I'm afraid of what you do in the name of your God.
I did go through a phase in my life where I couldn't stop trying to debate believers and slam them down with my arguments. So, I can understand if you're an angsty teen who needs to rebel a bit and feel superior
However, to the older atheist debaters out there (if there are any), and to lesser extent, the younger atheists, what's the point of debating these issues? Theists aren't going to see the truth if you go around pointing out flaws in their belief system. There are built in defense mechanisms in religion to stop that kind of stuff from getting through to their heads (see "thou shalt not tempt the lord").
But the most important reason why you're not going to convince anyone is that most believers are indoctrinated from childhood, sometimes birth. That's why religion is so hard to get rid of.
So, I ask of you, don't waste your time trying to debate people on an internet forum. It's an absolute waste of time. If you're trying to troll, I mean, go ahead, but don't take it seriously.
However, if you really want to do something about religion, focus on promoting education for kids in religious areas. Try to help kids learn critical thinking and teach them to question everything they're taught, even if it seems really basic.
I'm willing to bet, if every single kid in the world was raised in a separate, educated society until they were 18, and then introduced to religion, they'd toss it out the door like Santa Claus. I guess there's a flaw to that plan, since they might have a lot of religious influence around them (they might live in a religious community or home, or go to a religious school, have religious friends, etc.).
My point is, you can't start with the current believers. You have to change the next generation, not the current one.
There are many reasons why one might wish to debate. Sometimes it can be good practice simply for helping you to clarify, refine and strengthen your own position. Debate can be experienced as a worthwhile and even gratifying mental exercise.
Much more than that, however, you paint theists with too broad a brush. There are some, indeed, who are just as heavily indoctrinated as you say. But many others feel skeptical about their beliefs to some degree; and some of those people are able to acknowledge that they might be quite wrong about the nature of things. And a few such people actually do leave their faith on account of having had provocative and stimulating (but above all patient and respectful) dialogue with atheists.
Whether the issue at hand is religion, politics, or something less contentious, you can't approach someone else with the assumption that they'll not listen to what you have to say.
I see it as if not my duty then my passion to make the world a better place for all. I want our race to survive and advance. If I only convert one person, then I feel I've made the world a better place for man kind as a whole. And to raise the odds, why not try on as many people as possible. Even if I fail to covert Mr. Already Believer (which is the case more often than not), at least the debate was fun.
Disclaimer: just my opinion... Not trying to offend o.O . You believe what you want and do your thing.
Sales
Legacy
Punishing Depths :symg::symu::symr:
Faithless Dredge :symb::symu::symr::symw::symg:
To be fair I also find faults in atheism (and agnosticism for that matter as well).
To be close to true, this needs to be edited with numerous qualifiers so you're not actually insinuating that this is what all theists do. As it stands, it is false and quite inflammatory towards reasonable theists.
No, really. It's not going to change their mind instantaneously, but I can point you to a number of people for whom the defining moment in their deconversion was losing a debate, or wondering why they could never seem to win a debate.
Because in a marketplace of ideas, you get exactly nowhere by shutting up and sitting at the back of the bus. If we really think that it is true that theism is an intellectually unsustainable position, not to mention the harm it's doing in the world, why wouldn't we say so?
Before I continue, I would like to point out that not all theists are this way, but in my experiences, most are.
I feel like if I don't make a effort, than the world would stay crippled. While your cause is noble in some respects, giving people blind happiness and comfort. It doest realy help man kind at all. It gives them a crutch, a place to put blame other than themselves. (And here's the part about 'not all theists, but a lot') religion teaches people to not get along, pretty much. Why can't homosexuals experience marrage? Maybe it will make them happier and more productive in society. "Well, obviously because scripture says so!". And a lot of people try to punish intelligence as blaspheme, take Galileo for example. Sentenced to execution for observing that Jupiter has moons that orbit it? Well he got out of execution, but still had to live under house arrest for the rest of his life. Think of what a great mind like his could have accomplished in his last years but was denied by the church. And think of how many people could have been great, but were afraid of the churchs iron fist. Of couse things like that wouldn't fly today, at least in the US. But I'm sure it happens on a much smaller scale. Religion as a whole doesn't search for answers, because their supreme answer is god. If we never discovered the mystery behind lightning, we might (depending on our heritage) still believe in Thor, or Zeus. Religion also promotes violence and intolerance (some more than others). Which can be seen everywhere all throughout history. We've seen what religion does (dark ages), and that set our advancement back at least 1,000 years.
In my opinion, its a change that needs to happen, for the betterment of man. But if no one ever puts forth effort, it will never happen. In some ways it is very reminiscent of religion... But we have science behind us.
Sales
Legacy
Punishing Depths :symg::symu::symr:
Faithless Dredge :symb::symu::symr::symw::symg:
The point of education is to give people a choice whether to believe- essentially a more informed opinion. If you've been well educated and have valid evidence to support your statements, then go on ahead and believe. I might follow you if your evidence is simply that overwhelming.
@Pandas I do apologize for overgeneralizing. I suppose that there are rather skeptical theists out there who might consider your words more carefully. I imagine that's why a lot of atheists (like dawkins for ex.) are still at it. As for debate being stimulating, I agree, however religious debate tends to be anything but. In my opinion, debating religion is beating a dead bush- I've been around the arguments and counterarguments enough to give me a headache. I've lost interest in it and have gone on to explore further philosophy.
But if anyone ends up having a religious debate, as you said, being respectful is extremely key.
On the whole, I still feel like the best approach is education and more exposure to different ideas as children. I know if I was exposed to atheism and other beliefs more as a child, I wouldn't have had such a difficult time letting go of my beliefs, which were widely accepted by my family and community.
@Everyone else
I also see ridding the world of religion as a sort of moral obligation as well. It's just does so much harm to critical thinking and individualism. But I don't feel like trying to step into every religious person's life is the way to go about it. Posting inflammatory thread titles like "Can God make a rock so big that he can't move it?" isn't going to help anyone. If someone really wants help and input on their religion, I'd imagine they'd come to you.
That's why I feel that education of the next generation is the way to fo about it.
1. I think religion is a negative force in this world, and we would be better off without it.
2. I enjoy a good discussion, and I like to hear other peoples' opinions and understand their perspectives.
3. I really like arguing. It's fun for me. The best is when I'm totally rational and cool and level headed, and somebody feels the need to scream at me to justify their position. I LIVE for that moment. It translates pretty well to internet arguments as well.
All of this applies for abortion arguments too.
You put a lot of work into sounding respectful and reasonable but throw most of it away with this.
You're making the assumption that a well informed individual would never choose religion and that itself is just insulting.
I'm not trying to convert them. I have no desire to take anyone's beliefs away nor do I desire others to adopt my belief system. I'm simply pointing out BS when I see it.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
From my reading, it seems more that he's pointing out that someone who relies on objective evidence to form his conclusions would never choose religion - unless some evidence shows up. It seems more like he's pointing out that we use reason to determine even things like when we should cross the street. We don't believe there is no traffic because we really want there to be no traffic, we look at the road and see if there are cars. We look at the light and see if it's green. Imagine if we used faith as a mechanism for street-crossing.
If you start from scratch, without trying to justify religion, and simply ask yourself "what method should I use for examining reality and determining what is most likely to be true" - you end up with trusting evidence and not emotional pulls.
However, if you can demonstrate that faith is more likely or as likely to lead you to correct conclusions than reasoning based on evidence - I, of course, will completely change my mind. This should be an easy experiment to set up.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
That's essentially what most have been saying. It's fun to annoy theists. Well, I think that's quite subjective. But, as I said, if you get a kick out of trolling theists- hey, it floats your boat. That's none of my concern.
My point is that very little good comes out of these kind of arguments most of the time, so if you (not you personally) are looking to make an impact upon religion in general, focusing on education is a better way to go about it.
You mentioned that personal beliefs don't matter to you unless they infringe on personal liberties. I suppose the right to "free thought" is a personal liberty as well. Unfortunately, no matter what religion you're in, there's always some sort of limiting factor on it, so there's really no excuse to ever think that religion is not doing any harm to society.
Thank you, Stairc. You've summed up my position quite nicely, much better than I could have.
And also, thank you Walrus Enthusiast. I was waiting for someone to point out that I've taken it as a given that rational people don't believe in religion. I'm not trying to be patronizing here, but I bet the next thing you're about to say is "well this one famous scientist is well-informed and religious," etc. etc. or "I know this one really well-informed guy who goes to my church" etc. etc.
I tried to point out that environment is an extremely important factor in religious choice in my original post. The truth is, if you grow up in a Christian home in a Christian community and went to a Christian school where everyone was Christian, you'd probably end up Christian. Similarly if you grow up in an Islamic home in an Islamic community, etc. Jewish etc. you'd end up probably adhering to that particular religion. So, I'm guessing that many of those "well-informed people" were simply raised in religious homes and decided to follow their faith because that's how they've lived their life so far.
Another reason why "well-informed people" would end up converting to religion is due to social pressure. Have you seen the prejudice people receive for standing up to religion? You can see extreme prejudice in the news in the Middle East, but there's a heck of a lot at home as well- it's just not well publicized and it's widely accepted. Prejudice is a major factor in declaring personal beliefs; for example, my father, a chemical engineer, labels himself as a Christian but views Christian ideology with extreme skepticism. But it's simply more convenient to be "Christian" in a religiously dominated society.
Well, what if those "well-informed people" of yours don't fit into either of those categories? For one thing, there are a lot more factors that influence a someone's life that might turn that person towards religion against his or her better judgment. If a person really wasn't influenced by anything in his or her environment to become a theist and became one anyways, then clearly that person wasn't rational in the first place.
Why?
I think Stairc does a great job in pointing out why justifying religion with logic is impossible. You don't have to rational to be well-informed, or vice versa. The whole concept of being rational lies in using evidence to justify your actions and beliefs.
My point about education was that we need to work towards strengthening critical thinking and rationality in children. Knowledge is important too, but it's more important to think through the knowledge than to just know it.
Personally I would be temped to go the "you can lead a horse to water..." angle when it comes to me trying to convince the average theist of also thinking that their theology is just mythology. But it's not something I'd spend a great deal of time doing personally. Partially from what I think would be the rate of success but mostly because my personal life just doesn't have the sort of time for it. I would and so support atheist organizations and related organizations that seek to improve things like the scientific education of people. But my capacity to do so as a singular individual is limited. I can count the number of times I've had a serious conversation with someone on the issue of their theism on one hand.
I mean to be worried about all these christains who believe in something you claim doesn't exist shouldn't bother you in one little bit.
who cares what someone else believes? why is it so important to you? if you think it doesn't exist then let it be?
I find it funny to a point that all these athiest organization that claim God doesn't exist spend so much time chasing Him around.
Like an article i saw today some athiest organization decided to unbless a road. the question is how do you unbless something they claim doesn't exist?
Or a combination of both. i mean they are not totally separate. your car analogy is a little off.
sure you can look left and look right and see if the light is green. you still have faith in the other individuals out there that they will obey the traffic laws.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Personally I think religion has its place in the world, I have seen it do good. It can help people get through differcult times, the community can be great for meeting new people and the community projects that donationation lead to have a positive benefit for all. This is the aspect of religion I like.
I can understand the feeling of dislike towards religion because of some of the reasons listed above but that isn't a feature of religion as a whole but of a certain kind of person who uses religion to justify their actions, a kind of person that is becoming more prevailent. Calling for the end of religion is wrong though
To the debate topic, why athetist try to convert theists, I do find myself in this position sometimes, generally though it is because a theist is attempting to convert me. I find myself making points and counter-points in essense the reason I attempt to "convert" them is not because I want the world to have one less theist but because you attacked my beliefs and I'm just defending them. In the end no-one wins a debate where beliefs are involved so recently I have just tried to sidestep the issue if it comes up.
These sort of posts are pretty much prime example of why threads with a title like this one has is silly. Seriously have you EVER had a class on sociology? Or know that humans are social animals? Or that this concept called history exists that people record to see in part how human beings have effected each other and the world around them?
Religions are ultimately social organizations. Social organizations of great size, age and traditional backed backgrounds can and often do have deep and profound impacts on cultures, which ultimately means other people, laws, customs,etc.
You might as well ask why do people convince others to adopt certain political ideas because hey....people like the ancient greeks who set the groundwork for some of our modern political ideas don't exist anymore. People try to convince other people to have similiar ideas on something ALL the time.
Let me pose a hypothetical scenario for you.
I assume that you don't believe in Optimus Prime.
Now imagine that you met some people who did, and believe he's the savior of the galaxy. You can casually ignore them probably, the way we ignore flat-earthers.
But now imagine that the vast majority of your country believes in and worships Optimus Prime. Now imagine that significant portions of the country are voting based on which candidate they think best supports Optimus Prime. Furthermore, imagine that people who don't believe in Optimus Prime are constant targets of attack and misinformation. Let's take this further. Imagine that these people were constantly trying to legislate teaching that Optimus Prime is real in science classes and get his battles recorded in history classes as required reading. Now take the idea that these followers are trying to pass laws based on the will of Optimus Prime, among which they believe that Optimus Prime forbids heterosexual couples from marrying. Imagine if Optimus Prime's more extreme followers even assaulted or killed people who denied that Optimus Prime was the great force for good in the galaxy.
Think you might care a bit about all these things that are happening then?
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
As the song goes..I'm not afraid of your Yahweh, I'm afraid of what you do in the name of your God.
Amen.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane