Not being american, I'm not really familiar with american literature. I've read Mark Twain and his books, but I don't know much about the man myself. So, this quote was something I just stumbled on today.
But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most, our one fellow and brother who most needed a friend yet had not a single one, the one sinner among us all who had the highest and clearest right to every Christian's daily and nightly prayers, for the plain and unassailable reason that his was the first and greatest need, he being among sinners the supremest?
So, to the christians who believe that Satan exists (or those who have studied christianity), does Mark Twain have something going here? Or is he just trolling? Do/should christians pray for Satan? Why? Why not? Catholics cathecism refers to an "irrevocable" choice that was made by fallen angels, but even then, does that preclude praying for them? What are the views of other forms of christianity?
It simply never crossed my mind, and I honestly don't know what to think about it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
The idea is out there in the Christianverse. I've heard about some Christian sects which teach that even Satan will be forgiven during the Apocalypse. I don't know much about it, though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
That is a very interesting thought. Thanks for sharing!
I think it at least has some merit, since the Bible suggests praying for your enemies.
On the other hand, is Satan really even in the same league as us? The angels are said to have no free will, so they seem more like tools to me than beings. I don't pray for my rusty hammer, and what God wants to do with his rusty hammer is no business of mine. I doubt any reasonable version of God would call you a sinner for praying for him, but I don't know that there's much point. As you said, the fall was irrevocable and it seems God's already made up his mind on this subject. Anyway, it seems like Satan is pretty happy about the current set up since he basically runs the show on Earth.
It simply never crossed my mind, and I honestly don't know what to think about it.
I don't think it has crossed anyone's minds because from a young age we are taught that Satan simply does not want to be forgiven.
As to what I think about it, I think about it is what I think about any other person that has lost their way from God (unless of course being human and being a supernatural being calls for a different moral code, which is something I've been pondering about lately). So ignoring that big parenthetical side note, I would say there is no harm in praying to God that Lucifer will realize his wrong doing and repent. Another thing though is that I'm not going to hold my breath for Lucifer to sincerely ask for forgiveness, so while praying for Satan to turn from his evil ways, I'm not going to feel sorry for him.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
So, to the christians who believe that Satan exists (or those who have studied christianity), does Mark Twain have something going here? Or is he just trolling?
No, he has a point. I don't believe in the existence of Satan/Lucifer (who has gone through several changes since his Book of Job days, one day I'll have to research that), but it's like the idea of whether or not Hitler or Stalin will be forgiven. The answer is if they should not be forgiven, who should be? If forgiveness is conditional, if it is something earned as opposed to given, then who among us can lay claim to it?
Do/should christians pray for Satan?
I don't think Satan exists, so no. It would be like praying for the Baali, or praying for Voldemort. None of these exist. They're just figments of the human imagination.
Why? Why not?
Because you shouldn't give the fantasies of the human mind power over you. That's a one-way ticket to irrational fear.
Catholics cathecism refers to an "irrevocable" choice that was made by fallen angels, but even then, does that preclude praying for them? What are the views of other forms of christianity?
Well the character exploration of the devil has been a topic that has long been discussed throughout literature. Sometimes the devil is evil incarnate, the embodiment of all that is evil. Sometimes the devil is the villain of folklore, in which he's wicked but also rather bumbling. Sometimes the devil becomes a person who is really seeking God's love.
I view them all, like all mythological things, as mirrors for one aspect of humanity or another.
It simply never crossed my mind, and I honestly don't know what to think about it.
In my mind, what's being asked here is if we are supposed to pray for our enemies, and if God's forgiveness is given to everyone, does that extend to the devil? And even if you don't believe in the existence of the devil, it's still a worthy question to ask.
I believe God's forgiveness is given to everyone unconditionally. There is no such thing as an unforgivable human being.
What bears noting is that in the Book of Job, Satan is portrayed as an angel who seeks out men's sins, and acts as the accuser or adversary of man. He is an angel of God's court, and is not the Lucifer figure of later traditions of Judeo-Christianity. Also noteworthy is that there is no Hell in early Judaic writings, but rather a place called Sheol, also called the pit, which is a land of the dead much like Hades is.
I am an orthodox Christian (not eastern orthodox), and I do believe in Satan. We don't know everything about him but we know that he doesn't get a second chance. Revelations (I am a post millennium so I don't believe in the Left behind stuff) says Satan is thrown into a lake of fire. This is a glimpse of the end and God has decreed it. As a Christian I don't believe praying against what God has decreed a good thing.
Highroller, you are an incredibly interesting person from most of the post I have read on different issues here and you seem to have done a good deal of homework on some of these issues. The following questions are for pure understanding from your point of view and not in any way trying to rile you up. But before I ask these questions you have to understand my presuppositions going into it, ie the Bible is legit (not inerrant because that causes way too many modernistic reductions). But yeah I believe it is authoritative and all that Jazz. It's hard because I want to qualify so much...sigh but anyways. The point:
"I don't believe in the existence of Satan/Lucifer."
Jesus talked a lot about this guy and in most of your post you hold Jesus's word's pretty high. What are the reasons behind dismissing Satan? You talk about Satan being different in Job then in latter thought, which I agree in the sense you are not getting a fuller picture of the antagonist until later on. Do you dismiss all evil spiritual agents or just the boss?
Seventh Day Adventists are the ones, I believe, that ha-Satan will be redeemed on the final days. It's been several years since I delved into that stuff, though. But I do know that it's one of the Protestants, not the Catholics, Orthodox, nor Anabaptists.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Anselm, a medieval philosopher and theologian, wrote On the Fall of the Devil, in an interesting attempt at theodicy.
To make a long story short, Anselm thought that Lucifer and the angels who followed him initially had free will, and simply chose to try to enhance their happiness over their obedience. Why Lucifer and the other rebels would do that in the face of an omnipotent power is perhaps beside the point.
At any rate, if Anselm's account were considered valid in the arena of theology, and I think it is, (considering he was sainted and is a Doctor of the Church) it would not surprise me that one could logically conclude that Lucifer & Co. might be eventually redeemed.
On a related note, if you want a nice humanization of Satan there's many great books on the subject besides Twain's comment - For Love of Evil by Piers Anthony as one such example.
So, to the christians who believe that Satan exists (or those who have studied christianity), does Mark Twain have something going here? Or is he just trolling? Do/should christians pray for Satan? Why? Why not? Catholics cathecism refers to an "irrevocable" choice that was made by fallen angels, but even then, does that preclude praying for them? What are the views of other forms of christianity?
It simply never crossed my mind, and I honestly don't know what to think about it.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I think it at least has some merit, since the Bible suggests praying for your enemies.
On the other hand, is Satan really even in the same league as us? The angels are said to have no free will, so they seem more like tools to me than beings. I don't pray for my rusty hammer, and what God wants to do with his rusty hammer is no business of mine. I doubt any reasonable version of God would call you a sinner for praying for him, but I don't know that there's much point. As you said, the fall was irrevocable and it seems God's already made up his mind on this subject. Anyway, it seems like Satan is pretty happy about the current set up since he basically runs the show on Earth.
It's a shame we don't have a Mark Twain today. Not sure they'll ever be another one like him. The man was a gift to us all.
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
I don't think it has crossed anyone's minds because from a young age we are taught that Satan simply does not want to be forgiven.
As to what I think about it, I think about it is what I think about any other person that has lost their way from God (unless of course being human and being a supernatural being calls for a different moral code, which is something I've been pondering about lately). So ignoring that big parenthetical side note, I would say there is no harm in praying to God that Lucifer will realize his wrong doing and repent. Another thing though is that I'm not going to hold my breath for Lucifer to sincerely ask for forgiveness, so while praying for Satan to turn from his evil ways, I'm not going to feel sorry for him.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
No, he has a point. I don't believe in the existence of Satan/Lucifer (who has gone through several changes since his Book of Job days, one day I'll have to research that), but it's like the idea of whether or not Hitler or Stalin will be forgiven. The answer is if they should not be forgiven, who should be? If forgiveness is conditional, if it is something earned as opposed to given, then who among us can lay claim to it?
I don't think Satan exists, so no. It would be like praying for the Baali, or praying for Voldemort. None of these exist. They're just figments of the human imagination.
Because you shouldn't give the fantasies of the human mind power over you. That's a one-way ticket to irrational fear.
Well the character exploration of the devil has been a topic that has long been discussed throughout literature. Sometimes the devil is evil incarnate, the embodiment of all that is evil. Sometimes the devil is the villain of folklore, in which he's wicked but also rather bumbling. Sometimes the devil becomes a person who is really seeking God's love.
I view them all, like all mythological things, as mirrors for one aspect of humanity or another.
In my mind, what's being asked here is if we are supposed to pray for our enemies, and if God's forgiveness is given to everyone, does that extend to the devil? And even if you don't believe in the existence of the devil, it's still a worthy question to ask.
I believe God's forgiveness is given to everyone unconditionally. There is no such thing as an unforgivable human being.
What bears noting is that in the Book of Job, Satan is portrayed as an angel who seeks out men's sins, and acts as the accuser or adversary of man. He is an angel of God's court, and is not the Lucifer figure of later traditions of Judeo-Christianity. Also noteworthy is that there is no Hell in early Judaic writings, but rather a place called Sheol, also called the pit, which is a land of the dead much like Hades is.
Highroller, you are an incredibly interesting person from most of the post I have read on different issues here and you seem to have done a good deal of homework on some of these issues. The following questions are for pure understanding from your point of view and not in any way trying to rile you up. But before I ask these questions you have to understand my presuppositions going into it, ie the Bible is legit (not inerrant because that causes way too many modernistic reductions). But yeah I believe it is authoritative and all that Jazz. It's hard because I want to qualify so much...sigh but anyways. The point:
Jesus talked a lot about this guy and in most of your post you hold Jesus's word's pretty high. What are the reasons behind dismissing Satan? You talk about Satan being different in Job then in latter thought, which I agree in the sense you are not getting a fuller picture of the antagonist until later on. Do you dismiss all evil spiritual agents or just the boss?
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
To make a long story short, Anselm thought that Lucifer and the angels who followed him initially had free will, and simply chose to try to enhance their happiness over their obedience. Why Lucifer and the other rebels would do that in the face of an omnipotent power is perhaps beside the point.
At any rate, if Anselm's account were considered valid in the arena of theology, and I think it is, (considering he was sainted and is a Doctor of the Church) it would not surprise me that one could logically conclude that Lucifer & Co. might be eventually redeemed.
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.