christian: "of christ". (the same way darwinian is "of darwin" or bayesian is "of bayes")
this would mean that if your religion is based on christ (as the LDS is), then it is a christian religion.
The problem with this definition is that I've seen Taoist temples in Asia who have images and statues of Jesus as one of their prophets alongside Buddha and figures from other religions.
I AM a mormon. I AM a Christian. If you want to know something about a religion (or anything for that matter) go to the source. If I want to know about Hinduism, I'm going to ask a Hindu to teach me about it.
My church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I honestly am bewildered at how anyone can consider us non-Christians when the beliefs we hold are Christian, Christ is in the name of our church, and we believe in Christ.
If you have questions, ask away.
Do you understand the criticisms against the credibility of Joseph Smith, the existence of the golden tablets, and the Book of Mormon, and if so how do you respond to them?
And that justifies not questioning obvious lies and just going with things that blatantly aren't true because they benefit you?
In the appropriate forum, I will argue with a Mormon that his beliefs are false until I am blue in the face.
However.
If false beliefs made one not Christian, then either (a) all Christians or (b) all Christians except for the minority of one particular sect would not be Christian. This is a bar that I think nobody is interested in setting (TheBaron perhaps excepted).
For the purpose of this thread, then, the question of Mormonism's truth is irrelevant.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
This is kind of like an evolutionary question in a sense (ironic?).
Thinking about it in this sense I would say that Mormonism falls under the same umbrella as Christianity - in the same sense that I would say that humans fall under the same umbrella as apes.
So, yes I would consider Mormonism a sect of Christianity.
technically its the belief that jesus was the savior mention in Judaism books which are essentially the old testament of the Christan bible. The only reason mormons aren't accepted is because they have their own complementary books, and they used to practice polygamy.
Both of which are againt protestant and even catholic views as far as I know. I'm not really an expert as I generally stay away from religion as it is just another reason to fight.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
That they're seen in the way Catholics were back in the day and now are a part of the mainstream conservative movement even with their more liberal leanings outside of social issues.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
I'm just going to spill some things on my mind. I left the LDS church because I don't think that a God would allow a man who is a good person, with charity in his heart, to not receive the full benefit of heaven because he did not attend church weekly, or because he drank coffee, or some of the other "sins" that the LDS church believes. I personally believe that if you are a good person, and make an honest effort to be kind, not to cause discontent or strife, than if a God exists, that God will be glad, and not hold minor qualms against you.
Also, going to an LDS church in Utah, where I currently live, is absolutely a horrible place. It becomes not just a church, but a society of very high strung, self righteous people. When a person does something that isn't the norm, they become an outcast of sorts, where the people of the individual ward act differently towards that person because they are different. The ostracized member is treated like a child, like they have done something horrible in drinking alcohol, or becoming involved in pre-marital sexual relations. Entire wards go to "fix and help" one person for doing one wrong move in their eyes.
I just really had problems with the majority of the church in Utah.
Outside of the state though, the LDS church is great, exceptionally kind people who are just happy to have a person come to church once a month, and don't have the same mindset as the Utah mormons. They seem to be much more accepting of non-mormons, and try less to impose their ideas on others.
Now, on the subject of multiple gods, mormons only worship God the Father, not any other gods that may or may not exist. They believe that the Godhead is truly just a group of essential beings that allow one to come back to God the Father's presence. Without Jesus, our sins would not be forgiven, and without the Holy Ghost, we would not receive personal revelation and guidance to help us return. True worship is only done for God, not the other members. The other pieces of the LDS church that people see as anti-christian such as the ability to ascend to godhood, are just their idea of heaven. The basis for the LDS belief is in both the BIBLE and the D&C. It draws ideas for the glories (degrees/separations) of heaven from 1 Corinthians 15.
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The only reason mormons aren't accepted is because they have their own complementary books, and they used to practice polygamy.
Not true. See my post. They aren't accepted for a wide variety of non-orthodox-Christian views. Such as you get your own planet, Jesus is related to Satan, God had sex with celestial wives and we're his kids, and we can become Gods.
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Considering Mormons say that all other Christian factions are false and only their teachings are true, I am going to go out on a limb here and say if the rest of the Christians want to keep them out of the club house because they refuse to join, it only makes sense.
That they're seen in the way Catholics were back in the day and now are a part of the mainstream conservative movement even with their more liberal leanings outside of social issues.
More liberal leanings outside of social issues? They seem pretty rigidly dogmatic to me.
It does seem to be more monolatril (sp?). And I am one lol.
Just, as I'm thinking here, is monotheism towards a trinity of being, not a bit of the same? "He's three people, but one being, so he's one God. Right? ...right?"
I would argue that a persons belief in Jesus Christ and his atonement would qualify them as a christian. Not what they believe about the afterlife, about pre-existence, whether the believe in eating fish on a friday, or not drinking coffee. That stuff is up to the conscience of each individual, but as long as one has faith in Christ, strives to be the best they can be and seeks to help others, they can be counted as a Christian. After all, Christ pretty much said, Love one another, and everything else will fall into place
Edit: I'm new to debates, and only skim read the thread, so if something is off topic or whatever, sorry!
You seem fairly adamant that it is monotheistic as opposed to polytheistic, but polytheism seems to be a misnomer for momolatrism in this case.
I'd probably say that Monolatrism is about right. Considering all the mythos behind the creation and afterlife/exaltation. See if the religion says you can become gods, then can it truly be monotheistic? I don't like to bash on my old religion too much, or any religion for that matter.
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I'd probably say that Monolatrism is about right. Considering all the mythos behind the creation and afterlife/exaltation. See if the religion says you can become gods, then can it truly be monotheistic? I don't like to bash on my old religion too much, or any religion for that matter.
It does seem to be more monolatril (sp?). And I am one lol.
Just, as I'm thinking here, is monotheism towards a trinity of being, not a bit of the same? "He's three people, but one being, so he's one God. Right? ...right?"
I would argue that a persons belief in Jesus Christ and his atonement would qualify them as a christian. Not what they believe about the afterlife, about pre-existence, whether the believe in eating fish on a friday, or not drinking coffee. That stuff is up to the conscience of each individual, but as long as one has faith in Christ, strives to be the best they can be and seeks to help others, they can be counted as a Christian. After all, Christ pretty much said, Love one another, and everything else will fall into place
Edit: I'm new to debates, and only skim read the thread, so if something is off topic or whatever, sorry!
I would also agree that faith in Jesus Christ would make one a Christian, but I am not in-tune with the subtle currents of cross-Christian relations, so that statement is made with some degree of ignorance.
As for the trinity not being monotheistic... honestly I think it is a matter of how you look at it and how you think about it. The Trinity is always stressed to be as one, even if it is in three. Perhaps a useful image would be sone sort of golem or statue, where the legs are the Ghost, the torso is the Son, and the head is the Father. They are one being, just different aspects of that being come into play at different times. This is comparable to a divinity myth where there are multiple gods that emerged from a single god, but are distinct and separate entities (Like how the giants spawned from Ymir in Norse Mythology)
I would also agree that faith in Jesus Christ would make one a Christian, but I am not in-tune with the subtle currents of cross-Christian relations, so that statement is made with some degree of ignorance.
As for the trinity not being monotheistic... honestly I think it is a matter of how you look at it and how you think about it. The Trinity is always stressed to be as one, even if it is in three. Perhaps a useful image would be sone sort of golem or statue, where the legs are the Ghost, the torso is the Son, and the head is the Father. They are one being, just different aspects of that being come into play at different times. This is comparable to a divinity myth where there are multiple gods that emerged from a single god, but are distinct and separate entities (Like how the giants spawned from Ymir in Norse Mythology)
During the Crusades, Muslims called the Franks polytheists, so even with the trinitarianism can be rejected by arguably truer monotheists. But basically the argument is "God is Voltron" where as Mormons focus on the "five lions that make up Voltron." In the end from the onset whatever one debates, "Voltron is still Voltron."
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Not true. See my post. They aren't accepted for a wide variety of non-orthodox-Christian views. Such as you get your own planet, Jesus is related to Satan, God had sex with celestial wives and we're his kids, and we can become Gods.
Considering Mormons say that all other Christian factions are false and only their teachings are true, I am going to go out on a limb here and say if the rest of the Christians want to keep them out of the club house because they refuse to join, it only makes sense.
If inter-sect (...) acceptance were the rule for a religious class, then none of the Christians are Christian.
an' O MY GOD WHY AM I STILL HERE
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Short answer: It doesn't matter. What we see is a case of evangelical/fundamentalist special pleading in order to deprive an out-group of religious-freedom rights. And compared to snake-handling, faith-healing Pentacostals, Mormons are actually pretty tame. My guess that the posthumous-baptism thing is part of the evangelical backlash.
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Do I Contradict Myself? Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
According to the tradition of apostolic succession?
No. Only Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches count as Christian.
According to the ancient creedal statements meant to define orthodoxy (small o) apart from groups like the Gnostics and Ebionites?
No. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and most Protestant descended dominations count as Christian.
According to a mystical doctrine of the imputation of righteousness to the believer after he accepts Christ's sacrifice?
No. Only fundamentalist and protestant sects that maintain the primacy of the conversion prayer as the primary marker of Christianity.
According to an expansive definition that includes anyone who worships some sort of Jesus as some sort of divine figure?
Yes. However, by this definition we exclude the Ebionites and possibly the Jehovah's Witnesses based on what we mean by "divine figure". Oddly enough, now some Hindus and some Buddhists count. Also, you get the Branch Davidians, Jonestown sect, and The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda and other central African republics. Auspicious company, those last three, no? Also you might get Unitarians (depending, again, on the sort of Unitarian), various New Age-Crystal healing types, Bahais, and Christo-pagans.
According to an expansive definition that includes Jesus as an important, if not primary, spiritual teacher?
Yes. See above, and now include, Muslims, Ebionites, JWs without question, and people who think Jesus was a really hunky-dorry guy but probably not (a) god. Also, probably Simon Magus.
According to people who would self identify as non-Christian?
Probably.
According to people who would self identify as non-Christian and who think all theists are the same thing anyway?Yes.
According to a division of sects in which the orthodox sects (small o) and the Mormons are included to the exclusion of all the other weirdos and heretics and infidels (said with a wink and a nod) in the more expansive definitions, even though Mormons definitely think that the orthodox sects (small o) are wrong?
Yes.
According to Jehovah's Witnesses?
Nope.
According to Mormons?
Duh. You were thinking no maybe?
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But all of that is secondary to the real reason we're talking about this now in magazines and teh internets:
According to Mitt Romney and the Republican leadership who desperately want Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, Catholics, and the Orthodox to vote for Mitt Romney instead of cuckoo-bird-Bachman, pray-for-rain-so-people-know-how-holy-we-are-Perry, or our-own-black-guy-Cain? Yes! Mormons are as Christian as Jesus, guns, and the American Flag!!!!!!
Who gains anything from this cynical manipulation of religious discourse? Mitt Romney and only Mitt Romney. The orthodox (small o[and large o]) still won't accept the Mormons as Christians. The Mormons still won't accept the orthdox (small o [or large O, for that matter]) as "real Christians". The Jehovah's witnesses still won't think that the Mormons or the orthodox are Christians. The Hindus will still kind of think everyone else is really some sort of Hindu. Birthers will still think Obama is a muslim illegal alien terrorist. I will still be fat and stupid.
Does it really matter? Will Mitt Romney or Barack Obama be able to prevent 5$ a pack magic cards?
During the Crusades, Muslims called the Franks polytheists, so even with the trinitarianism can be rejected by arguably truer monotheists. But basically the argument is "God is Voltron" where as Mormons focus on the "five lions that make up Voltron." In the end from the onset whatever one debates, "Voltron is still Voltron."
Except thats not really accurate. Because the Mormons state that (using your voltron analogy) There are infinite other Voltrons out there, we worship this particular voltron, and if we are good will eventually become voltrons ourselves.
Whereas Christianity would be: There is one voltron. That voltron consists of three components (Red, blue, and yellow lions, screw green). The three lions are aspects of that one voltron, but they are not themselves independent voltrons.
Martin Luther's movement was based on criticism of the Catholic Church's practices and statements about the Bible not being consistent with was written in the Bible, specifically regarding the sale of indulgences. Luther would continue go on to criticize the Catholic Church for practices that went against what he considered to be Biblical grounds.
I'm aware of Martin Luthor, I went to Catholic school. His claims DID actually eventually lead to reforms in the church. My point is, the Bible also says that Peter became the leader of God's church on earth, so what right did he have to go against that church?
The claims that the Book of Mormon is somehow an authentic text and that Joseph Smith's claims about its origin is outright false. Thus, false prophet.
And how do you define 'false'? You never do, other than 'not what I believe'.
Not analogous to the golden tablets. For that to be analogous, there would have to be no reason to believe the Jews ever existed, or that Hebrew ever existed, and the very idea that either would exist would contradict all historical data we have.
So show me the historical data that includes all the first born of Egypt dying, the parting of the red sea, and all that leftover mana that fell from heaven to nurish the israelites leading up to the ten commandments.
Are you really arguing against a religion due to its inaccuracy?
Further emphasizing why declaring them Christian doesn't make them any less of a cult.
The only difference between a religion and a cult is the number of followers. By the definition of cult presented earlier, the catholic church is just a very large cult based around the Pope. Evangelical churches are cults based around their cult-of-personality preachers.
"It doesn't matter that the belief that the authenticity of the book of Mormon has no critical basis whatsoever and is an obvious fabrication and that these people are buying into a religious cult based around a conman?"
Of course that's terrifying. It's intellectual dishonesty at its most pure.
And you have yet to explain how it is any different from any other religion, other than it is more recent and has fewer followers and you don't believe in it.
For the purpose of this thread, then, the question of Mormonism's truth is irrelevant.
Thank you, Blinking Spirit.
The bottom line is that since everyone has a different definition of Christian, and all of religion is subjective, this is a debate that can't have a resolution.
People who self-identify as Christians will believe whatever their particular sect believes and define it that way.
Non-Christians will belive anyone who believes in that Christ guy as Christian.
As a few others have said, and by reading this whole thread, it seems that to self-identifying Mormons and self-identifying non-Christians, Mormons are Christians. To self-identifying (non-Mormon) Christians, Momons are not Christians. Obviously, it depends on what definition a person uses to define "Christian".
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I really don't see why this is supposed to be a difficult question. Christianity is monotheistic, mormonism is polytheistic. There should be no debate here.
If you actually read the thread instead of poking in without any context, you'd see that the validity of calling Mormonism polytheistic has been called into question, the definition of Christianity as monotheistic is shaky at best, and there indeed is debate because we like careful deliberation rather than pure opinion.
As a few others have said, and by reading this whole thread, it seems that to self-identifying Mormons and self-identifying non-Christians, Mormons are Christians. To self-identifying (non-Mormon) Christians, Momons are not Christians. Obviously, it depends on what definition a person uses to define "Christian".
As a self-identifying Christian I consider Mormons to be Christians so you are too general.
However, there is probably a case to be made to disqualify me as a 'Christian' so who am I to say?
Except thats not really accurate. Because the Mormons state that (using your voltron analogy) There are infinite other Voltrons out there, we worship this particular voltron, and if we are good will eventually become voltrons ourselves.
Whereas Christianity would be: There is one voltron. That voltron consists of three components (Red, blue, and yellow lions, screw green). The three lions are aspects of that one voltron, but they are not themselves independent voltrons.
Ironically, I'd agree with the Mormons on this one... the difference being that all the Voltrons (in my view) are imaginary.
It seems like Christian theology plays with language too much when they could just invoke God's omnipotence (while still claiming that there's only one of Him). So God could easily be Jesus and the Holy Spirit at the same time... as well as all the angels, all the people, matter and energy... damn, that's Panentheism. Oh well.
An Abrahamic, Monotheistic religion that uses the Bible as a liturgical base and believes in Jesus Christ as the prophesized messiah of Judiasm.
As a point to this, i was mormon(and i guess tehcnically still am, if i chose to identify myself as such, as i was not excommunicated). I went to church every sunday, went to "sunday school", listened to the teachings and this is what i found... Mormons never use the Bible, except to help the book of mormon. We never read the Bible to gleam any information from it. We never read the Bible for the sake of reading the Bible. The only reason we ever pulled out our Bibles is beacuse we just read a passage from the mormon book, and whoever was speaking wanted to basically say "See!? the Bible scriptures say roughly the same thing, so it must be true ." The Bible is used as a crutch for the book of mormon to hobble along on. If asked about a passage from the book of mormon that directly contradicts a scripture in the Bible, they will always turn to either another passage in the book of mormon, or try to explain that "the Bible is often misinterpreted this way." and YES, that is an EXACT quote from one of the elders at the church. The Bible is not their basis, the book of mormon is, they try to use the Bible to support their views, and discount it when it goes against their views.
Even the passage about not adding to or subtracting from the books in the Bible... (i believe in revelations) they say "well he meant you shouldn't try to add or subtract verses from it" (not an exact quote)...
The New Testament and Old Testament is 'it' in Christianity, it is the word of God. To say it's incomplete and add additional texts to make it complete, which is essentially what Joseph Smith did, is to say that the rest of Christianity is wrong, and is fundamentally a rejection of the word of God. You'll have to convince the rest of the world that traditional Christianity is wrong for LDS doctrine to be right.
May I ask why you left the LDS church?
This mainly supports my views on the Bible vs the book of mormon (wonder if anyone actually caught that i only capitalize one of them). While i won't agree with the italicizedBolded part (as i know realize the enite this is italicized), the Bible was never used as anything but a supporter of the book of mormon, it is taken as true so that it can say the book of mormon is true, not because they actively practice biblical beliefs.
Another point I wish to call to everyone's attention is this: Yes, Chritians did decide to add another part about Jesus in the bible, yes they do now practice vastly different views than the Jews, and yes THEY ARE IN FACT DIFFERENT RELIGIONS. We would never ask "are christians jews" because that would be silly. why then are we asking "are mormons christian" (i hate capitalizing religious organizations, so I won't). It is just as silly a question, the mormons tacked on a different book and practice widely different beliefs than christians. So why are we saying they are christians? Because they believe in Jesus??!!! SO WHAT!!?? CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN MOSES!!! and god!!! in fact, they believe in everything that jews do, but they believe that there was mroe to the story, and so practice different beliefs. If a christian is not a jew, a mormon is not a christian. And to those who say that the same thing can be said of catholics, you might be right! but, atleast the catholics did not add another book and still try to say they are christians
To go along with the above, it is also important to note this: JEWS BELIEVE JESUS DID EXIST. most of them, anyways (but please do correct me if this is a falicy). The problem is not with christ as a person, but with christ as the son of God. so, the christians added all these gospels that support jesus as the son of god, the jews say "Jesus? yea he was here, but he wasn't the massiah." These are still different religions, even dispite this... so mormonism and christianity should be too.
AND AS A BONUS!!!! I will give you a dollar (okay not literally) for every christian you can find that says "A guy in north america teaching the injuhns? (sorry, neededa bit of humor) Yea, he was here, spreading the word of Jesus Christ, but we aren't sure if he was actually Jesus." Most christians, when asked about the golden tablets, the translator stone, the losing of the book of mormon, the anger of god for the scriptures for being lost, so he destroyed the original tablets, but then gave different tablets that might have been slightly different, so if a different book of mormon showed up, that wasn't actually the same, it was just slightly different because the tablets were different, but it was still the word of God... or whoever. (seriously, watch the episode of South Park about Joseph Smith writing the book of mormon, while hyperbollic, it is actually true, this coming from a once devote mormon)...
now where was i? oh yea... just ask any christian about whether or not someone was actually here, teaching indians, they will say "OH HEEEEEELLLLL NO!" you might get "it's possible" or "maybe" but you will be hardpressed to find a christian that actually believes that someone was here, spreading beliefs about Jesus, just they weren't Jesus. (which is the polar oppisite of jews vs christians)
(i forgot to mention the fleet of ships that sailed christians from... somewhere on the other side of the world to north america, loooooong loooooong before collumbus, and they settled here, and made this land their own. and the ships were actually kinda like submersables [which were highly popularized during the time JS wrote his book]... which if any of that happened why do we not have ANY record of it, i mean atleast we have plausible reccord of the vikings being here, which would have been LOOOONG before this was supposed to happen.... but i digress)
Anyways, the main point is, jews will atleast tell you it is possible (maybe even plausible) that Jesus Christ existsed, he just wasn't the messiah.
Whereas if you asked a christian about any prophet, spreading the word of Jesus to the indians, but that it just wasn't the messiah... you might get a laugh, but they wouldn't think it was even possible. And yet still christians are not jews.
Another point I want to bring up is how the mormons say it's "The church of Jesus christ of latter day saints." Well let me ask you this, if i said I was starting a church called "The church of Jesus and cthulu and vishnu, of great prophets, praising god in all his great allpowerfullness" Would you call me christian? It would depend on my beliefs right? Even then probably not... The point being putting "Jesus" in your name does not, cannot, and will not automatically make you christian.
In addition to this, if you have a group of people, lets call them the Bungos. You have a bunch of non bungos, who are having a debate about if a certain group are Bungos.... who would get to decide? the group, let's call them Bingos, says that Bingos are definitely Bungos, and they practice Bungo beliefs, but they do have a different book than the Bungos, and practice a little differently than the Bungos... But they are still Bungos.
Then you have the Bungos who say the Bingos are definitely not Bungos, they are Bungos, just like the Bungos are definitley not Bongos, who also have similar beliefs, but the Bungos have an extra book, and pracitice things differently.
Now i ask you, would the non-bungos have any say in this? Would the Bingos have a say in this? I say no, saying you are part of a group does not make you part of the group.
If I went around slaughtering babies, raping woman, and blowing up buildings that i KNOW are occupied, but i said I was part of PETA because meat is murder, and I only eat vegetables, so i have the same beliefs as PETA, therefore I'm part of PETA. Then PETA says, he is not a member of PETA, who are you going to believe?
Me!?!? sweet! then believe me when i say that mormons are not christians.... and PM me about sending me a mothly donation of 9.95 so i can cleanse your soul using the alpha waves i emit from my dreams. (i love hyperbole)
Anyways, main point is: If (the majority of) christians say mormons are not christians, then they aren't. period, end of discussion.
To summarize my wall of text:
1) mormons do not use the bible as a basis, but a crutch
2) christians are different from jews, becuase of their added beliefs, mormons must be different from chritians, because of their equal, if not greater differing views.
3) even jews, from whom christians are an offshoot of believe it is possible that Jesus exsists, even non-christians find the ideas in the book of mormon laughable
4) saying "Jesus" in you church name does not make you christian
5) saying you are part of a group does not make you part of the group, the group says you are part of the group.
and... even though i didn't say it directly 6) the book of mormon is silly (watch SoutPark, honestly, it's true)
P.S. I consider myself an agnostic christian, or desit
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The problem with this definition is that I've seen Taoist temples in Asia who have images and statues of Jesus as one of their prophets alongside Buddha and figures from other religions.
By this definition, they would be Christian.
Do you understand the criticisms against the credibility of Joseph Smith, the existence of the golden tablets, and the Book of Mormon, and if so how do you respond to them?
In the appropriate forum, I will argue with a Mormon that his beliefs are false until I am blue in the face.
However.
If false beliefs made one not Christian, then either (a) all Christians or (b) all Christians except for the minority of one particular sect would not be Christian. This is a bar that I think nobody is interested in setting (TheBaron perhaps excepted).
For the purpose of this thread, then, the question of Mormonism's truth is irrelevant.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Thinking about it in this sense I would say that Mormonism falls under the same umbrella as Christianity - in the same sense that I would say that humans fall under the same umbrella as apes.
So, yes I would consider Mormonism a sect of Christianity.
technically its the belief that jesus was the savior mention in Judaism books which are essentially the old testament of the Christan bible. The only reason mormons aren't accepted is because they have their own complementary books, and they used to practice polygamy.
Both of which are againt protestant and even catholic views as far as I know. I'm not really an expert as I generally stay away from religion as it is just another reason to fight.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
That they're seen in the way Catholics were back in the day and now are a part of the mainstream conservative movement even with their more liberal leanings outside of social issues.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Also, going to an LDS church in Utah, where I currently live, is absolutely a horrible place. It becomes not just a church, but a society of very high strung, self righteous people. When a person does something that isn't the norm, they become an outcast of sorts, where the people of the individual ward act differently towards that person because they are different. The ostracized member is treated like a child, like they have done something horrible in drinking alcohol, or becoming involved in pre-marital sexual relations. Entire wards go to "fix and help" one person for doing one wrong move in their eyes.
I just really had problems with the majority of the church in Utah.
Outside of the state though, the LDS church is great, exceptionally kind people who are just happy to have a person come to church once a month, and don't have the same mindset as the Utah mormons. They seem to be much more accepting of non-mormons, and try less to impose their ideas on others.
Now, on the subject of multiple gods, mormons only worship God the Father, not any other gods that may or may not exist. They believe that the Godhead is truly just a group of essential beings that allow one to come back to God the Father's presence. Without Jesus, our sins would not be forgiven, and without the Holy Ghost, we would not receive personal revelation and guidance to help us return. True worship is only done for God, not the other members. The other pieces of the LDS church that people see as anti-christian such as the ability to ascend to godhood, are just their idea of heaven. The basis for the LDS belief is in both the BIBLE and the D&C. It draws ideas for the glories (degrees/separations) of heaven from 1 Corinthians 15.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatrism
You seem fairly adamant that it is monotheistic as opposed to polytheistic, but polytheism seems to be a misnomer for momolatrism in this case.
None of that is in Christianity.
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More liberal leanings outside of social issues? They seem pretty rigidly dogmatic to me.
Just, as I'm thinking here, is monotheism towards a trinity of being, not a bit of the same? "He's three people, but one being, so he's one God. Right? ...right?"
I would argue that a persons belief in Jesus Christ and his atonement would qualify them as a christian. Not what they believe about the afterlife, about pre-existence, whether the believe in eating fish on a friday, or not drinking coffee. That stuff is up to the conscience of each individual, but as long as one has faith in Christ, strives to be the best they can be and seeks to help others, they can be counted as a Christian. After all, Christ pretty much said, Love one another, and everything else will fall into place
Edit: I'm new to debates, and only skim read the thread, so if something is off topic or whatever, sorry!
I'd probably say that Monolatrism is about right. Considering all the mythos behind the creation and afterlife/exaltation. See if the religion says you can become gods, then can it truly be monotheistic? I don't like to bash on my old religion too much, or any religion for that matter.
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Fascinating, thanks for the response.
I would also agree that faith in Jesus Christ would make one a Christian, but I am not in-tune with the subtle currents of cross-Christian relations, so that statement is made with some degree of ignorance.
As for the trinity not being monotheistic... honestly I think it is a matter of how you look at it and how you think about it. The Trinity is always stressed to be as one, even if it is in three. Perhaps a useful image would be sone sort of golem or statue, where the legs are the Ghost, the torso is the Son, and the head is the Father. They are one being, just different aspects of that being come into play at different times. This is comparable to a divinity myth where there are multiple gods that emerged from a single god, but are distinct and separate entities (Like how the giants spawned from Ymir in Norse Mythology)
During the Crusades, Muslims called the Franks polytheists, so even with the trinitarianism can be rejected by arguably truer monotheists. But basically the argument is "God is Voltron" where as Mormons focus on the "five lions that make up Voltron." In the end from the onset whatever one debates, "Voltron is still Voltron."
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
That's the question being asked.
If inter-sect (...) acceptance were the rule for a religious class, then none of the Christians are Christian.
an' O MY GOD WHY AM I STILL HERE
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Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
Ah the joy of taxonomy!
Are Mormons Christian?
According to the tradition of apostolic succession?
No. Only Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches count as Christian.
According to the ancient creedal statements meant to define orthodoxy (small o) apart from groups like the Gnostics and Ebionites?
No. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and most Protestant descended dominations count as Christian.
According to a mystical doctrine of the imputation of righteousness to the believer after he accepts Christ's sacrifice?
No. Only fundamentalist and protestant sects that maintain the primacy of the conversion prayer as the primary marker of Christianity.
According to an expansive definition that includes anyone who worships some sort of Jesus as some sort of divine figure?
Yes. However, by this definition we exclude the Ebionites and possibly the Jehovah's Witnesses based on what we mean by "divine figure". Oddly enough, now some Hindus and some Buddhists count. Also, you get the Branch Davidians, Jonestown sect, and The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda and other central African republics. Auspicious company, those last three, no? Also you might get Unitarians (depending, again, on the sort of Unitarian), various New Age-Crystal healing types, Bahais, and Christo-pagans.
According to an expansive definition that includes Jesus as an important, if not primary, spiritual teacher?
Yes. See above, and now include, Muslims, Ebionites, JWs without question, and people who think Jesus was a really hunky-dorry guy but probably not (a) god. Also, probably Simon Magus.
According to people who would self identify as non-Christian?
Probably.
According to people who would self identify as non-Christian and who think all theists are the same thing anyway?Yes.
According to a division of sects in which the orthodox sects (small o) and the Mormons are included to the exclusion of all the other weirdos and heretics and infidels (said with a wink and a nod) in the more expansive definitions, even though Mormons definitely think that the orthodox sects (small o) are wrong?
Yes.
According to Jehovah's Witnesses?
Nope.
According to Mormons?
Duh. You were thinking no maybe?
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But all of that is secondary to the real reason we're talking about this now in magazines and teh internets:
According to Mitt Romney and the Republican leadership who desperately want Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, Catholics, and the Orthodox to vote for Mitt Romney instead of cuckoo-bird-Bachman, pray-for-rain-so-people-know-how-holy-we-are-Perry, or our-own-black-guy-Cain? Yes! Mormons are as Christian as Jesus, guns, and the American Flag!!!!!!
Who gains anything from this cynical manipulation of religious discourse? Mitt Romney and only Mitt Romney. The orthodox (small o[and large o]) still won't accept the Mormons as Christians. The Mormons still won't accept the orthdox (small o [or large O, for that matter]) as "real Christians". The Jehovah's witnesses still won't think that the Mormons or the orthodox are Christians. The Hindus will still kind of think everyone else is really some sort of Hindu. Birthers will still think Obama is a muslim illegal alien terrorist. I will still be fat and stupid.
Does it really matter? Will Mitt Romney or Barack Obama be able to prevent 5$ a pack magic cards?
No.
No they will not.
fwiw,
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Except thats not really accurate. Because the Mormons state that (using your voltron analogy) There are infinite other Voltrons out there, we worship this particular voltron, and if we are good will eventually become voltrons ourselves.
Whereas Christianity would be: There is one voltron. That voltron consists of three components (Red, blue, and yellow lions, screw green). The three lions are aspects of that one voltron, but they are not themselves independent voltrons.
I'm aware of Martin Luthor, I went to Catholic school. His claims DID actually eventually lead to reforms in the church. My point is, the Bible also says that Peter became the leader of God's church on earth, so what right did he have to go against that church?
And how do you define 'false'? You never do, other than 'not what I believe'.
So show me the historical data that includes all the first born of Egypt dying, the parting of the red sea, and all that leftover mana that fell from heaven to nurish the israelites leading up to the ten commandments.
Are you really arguing against a religion due to its inaccuracy?
The only difference between a religion and a cult is the number of followers. By the definition of cult presented earlier, the catholic church is just a very large cult based around the Pope. Evangelical churches are cults based around their cult-of-personality preachers.
Sure there is. Doesn't make his religion's beliefs any more wrong or crazy to an outsider than any other's.
And you have yet to explain how it is any different from any other religion, other than it is more recent and has fewer followers and you don't believe in it.
Again, as opposed to any other religion? The veracity of a religion is a moot point, believers will believe it and non-believers won't.
The only true measure of a religion is the quality of its people, which is what I've been getting at this whole thread.
Thank you, Blinking Spirit.
The bottom line is that since everyone has a different definition of Christian, and all of religion is subjective, this is a debate that can't have a resolution.
People who self-identify as Christians will believe whatever their particular sect believes and define it that way.
Non-Christians will belive anyone who believes in that Christ guy as Christian.
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If you actually read the thread instead of poking in without any context, you'd see that the validity of calling Mormonism polytheistic has been called into question, the definition of Christianity as monotheistic is shaky at best, and there indeed is debate because we like careful deliberation rather than pure opinion.
As a self-identifying Christian I consider Mormons to be Christians so you are too general.
However, there is probably a case to be made to disqualify me as a 'Christian' so who am I to say?
Ironically, I'd agree with the Mormons on this one... the difference being that all the Voltrons (in my view) are imaginary.
It seems like Christian theology plays with language too much when they could just invoke God's omnipotence (while still claiming that there's only one of Him). So God could easily be Jesus and the Holy Spirit at the same time... as well as all the angels, all the people, matter and energy... damn, that's Panentheism. Oh well.
Yeah, according to the Evangelicals that case is "You think that Mormons are Christians too"
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
As a point to this, i was mormon(and i guess tehcnically still am, if i chose to identify myself as such, as i was not excommunicated). I went to church every sunday, went to "sunday school", listened to the teachings and this is what i found... Mormons never use the Bible, except to help the book of mormon. We never read the Bible to gleam any information from it. We never read the Bible for the sake of reading the Bible. The only reason we ever pulled out our Bibles is beacuse we just read a passage from the mormon book, and whoever was speaking wanted to basically say "See!? the Bible scriptures say roughly the same thing, so it must be true ." The Bible is used as a crutch for the book of mormon to hobble along on. If asked about a passage from the book of mormon that directly contradicts a scripture in the Bible, they will always turn to either another passage in the book of mormon, or try to explain that "the Bible is often misinterpreted this way." and YES, that is an EXACT quote from one of the elders at the church. The Bible is not their basis, the book of mormon is, they try to use the Bible to support their views, and discount it when it goes against their views.
Even the passage about not adding to or subtracting from the books in the Bible... (i believe in revelations) they say "well he meant you shouldn't try to add or subtract verses from it" (not an exact quote)...
This mainly supports my views on the Bible vs the book of mormon (wonder if anyone actually caught that i only capitalize one of them). While i won't agree with the
italicizedBolded part (as i know realize the enite this is italicized), the Bible was never used as anything but a supporter of the book of mormon, it is taken as true so that it can say the book of mormon is true, not because they actively practice biblical beliefs.Another point I wish to call to everyone's attention is this: Yes, Chritians did decide to add another part about Jesus in the bible, yes they do now practice vastly different views than the Jews, and yes THEY ARE IN FACT DIFFERENT RELIGIONS. We would never ask "are christians jews" because that would be silly. why then are we asking "are mormons christian" (i hate capitalizing religious organizations, so I won't). It is just as silly a question, the mormons tacked on a different book and practice widely different beliefs than christians. So why are we saying they are christians? Because they believe in Jesus??!!! SO WHAT!!?? CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN MOSES!!! and god!!! in fact, they believe in everything that jews do, but they believe that there was mroe to the story, and so practice different beliefs. If a christian is not a jew, a mormon is not a christian. And to those who say that the same thing can be said of catholics, you might be right! but, atleast the catholics did not add another book and still try to say they are christians
To go along with the above, it is also important to note this: JEWS BELIEVE JESUS DID EXIST. most of them, anyways (but please do correct me if this is a falicy). The problem is not with christ as a person, but with christ as the son of God. so, the christians added all these gospels that support jesus as the son of god, the jews say "Jesus? yea he was here, but he wasn't the massiah." These are still different religions, even dispite this... so mormonism and christianity should be too.
AND AS A BONUS!!!! I will give you a dollar (okay not literally) for every christian you can find that says "A guy in north america teaching the injuhns? (sorry, neededa bit of humor) Yea, he was here, spreading the word of Jesus Christ, but we aren't sure if he was actually Jesus." Most christians, when asked about the golden tablets, the translator stone, the losing of the book of mormon, the anger of god for the scriptures for being lost, so he destroyed the original tablets, but then gave different tablets that might have been slightly different, so if a different book of mormon showed up, that wasn't actually the same, it was just slightly different because the tablets were different, but it was still the word of God... or whoever. (seriously, watch the episode of South Park about Joseph Smith writing the book of mormon, while hyperbollic, it is actually true, this coming from a once devote mormon)...
now where was i? oh yea... just ask any christian about whether or not someone was actually here, teaching indians, they will say "OH HEEEEEELLLLL NO!" you might get "it's possible" or "maybe" but you will be hardpressed to find a christian that actually believes that someone was here, spreading beliefs about Jesus, just they weren't Jesus. (which is the polar oppisite of jews vs christians)
(i forgot to mention the fleet of ships that sailed christians from... somewhere on the other side of the world to north america, loooooong loooooong before collumbus, and they settled here, and made this land their own. and the ships were actually kinda like submersables [which were highly popularized during the time JS wrote his book]... which if any of that happened why do we not have ANY record of it, i mean atleast we have plausible reccord of the vikings being here, which would have been LOOOONG before this was supposed to happen.... but i digress)
Anyways, the main point is, jews will atleast tell you it is possible (maybe even plausible) that Jesus Christ existsed, he just wasn't the messiah.
Whereas if you asked a christian about any prophet, spreading the word of Jesus to the indians, but that it just wasn't the messiah... you might get a laugh, but they wouldn't think it was even possible. And yet still christians are not jews.
Another point I want to bring up is how the mormons say it's "The church of Jesus christ of latter day saints." Well let me ask you this, if i said I was starting a church called "The church of Jesus and cthulu and vishnu, of great prophets, praising god in all his great allpowerfullness" Would you call me christian? It would depend on my beliefs right? Even then probably not... The point being putting "Jesus" in your name does not, cannot, and will not automatically make you christian.
In addition to this, if you have a group of people, lets call them the Bungos. You have a bunch of non bungos, who are having a debate about if a certain group are Bungos.... who would get to decide? the group, let's call them Bingos, says that Bingos are definitely Bungos, and they practice Bungo beliefs, but they do have a different book than the Bungos, and practice a little differently than the Bungos... But they are still Bungos.
Then you have the Bungos who say the Bingos are definitely not Bungos, they are Bungos, just like the Bungos are definitley not Bongos, who also have similar beliefs, but the Bungos have an extra book, and pracitice things differently.
Now i ask you, would the non-bungos have any say in this? Would the Bingos have a say in this? I say no, saying you are part of a group does not make you part of the group.
If I went around slaughtering babies, raping woman, and blowing up buildings that i KNOW are occupied, but i said I was part of PETA because meat is murder, and I only eat vegetables, so i have the same beliefs as PETA, therefore I'm part of PETA. Then PETA says, he is not a member of PETA, who are you going to believe?
Me!?!? sweet! then believe me when i say that mormons are not christians.... and PM me about sending me a mothly donation of 9.95 so i can cleanse your soul using the alpha waves i emit from my dreams. (i love hyperbole)
Anyways, main point is: If (the majority of) christians say mormons are not christians, then they aren't. period, end of discussion.
To summarize my wall of text:
1) mormons do not use the bible as a basis, but a crutch
2) christians are different from jews, becuase of their added beliefs, mormons must be different from chritians, because of their equal, if not greater differing views.
3) even jews, from whom christians are an offshoot of believe it is possible that Jesus exsists, even non-christians find the ideas in the book of mormon laughable
4) saying "Jesus" in you church name does not make you christian
5) saying you are part of a group does not make you part of the group, the group says you are part of the group.
and... even though i didn't say it directly 6) the book of mormon is silly (watch SoutPark, honestly, it's true)
P.S. I consider myself an agnostic christian, or desit
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