The only good outcome of this despicable mess is that it galvanized all liberal and progressive people I know into getting out of their intellectual tower, go out and try to convince the people that fighting corporate greed, tax evasion, fiscal injustice, women and minorities discrimination, bigotry, racism and climate denial is definitely worth it if you don't want to leave a McTrump junk-world to your children.
We see the same populist tendency here in Europe. We can't stay right between ourselves; we need to go out and explain to those afraid of progress why conservative policies will hurt them in the long run, the same way you don't fight violence by violence.
Trumps win, and also the Reublican wins in house and senate, have me second guessing American values. I got to the point where I believed my stance in social issues were correct and any dissenters were just backward and wrong. But now we have this and I fear for much of the progress that has been made on social issues. Thank god for the Supreme Court to rule in favor of marriage equality, too bad we couldn't get them to rule in favor of other things to solidify the correct choice. Now with a right wing crongress and trump in the White House, good bye LGBT rights, gun control, woman's right to choose. And good bye to any hope of universal health care, affordable college (gotta keep the masses uneducated so they keep thinking that Trump is the right choice) and keep the uneducated down by refusing to raise the minimum wage, and to top it all off, destroy our planet unchecked and unopposed. America's system of checks has completely failed.
Trumps win, and also the Reublican wins in house and senate, have me second guessing American values. I got to the point where I believed my stance in social issues were correct and any dissenters were just backward and wrong. But now we have this and I fear for much of the progress that has been made on social issues. Thank god for the Supreme Court to rule in favor of marriage equality, too bad we couldn't get them to rule in favor of other things to solidify the correct choice. Now with a right wing crongress and trump in the White House, good bye LGBT rights, gun control, woman's right to choose. And good bye to any hope of universal health care, affordable college (gotta keep the masses uneducated so they keep thinking that Trump is the right choice) and keep the uneducated down by refusing to raise the minimum wage, and to top it all off, destroy our planet unchecked and unopposed. America's system of checks has completely failed.
Clinton got more popular votes. This Electoral College thing is actually a shabby system. I understand there was a bygone time it served as a balance against potential dictatorship. Now, ironically enough, it serves it.
Actually not trying to be cute; just finding it difficult to believe that 4 years of business as usual will mean death. I think you're being overly dramatic.
Trump has already said he is going to ignore the Paris Climate Accords, which are a comprehensive start to the work we need to do to save the ecosystem. The Paris Accords need to be adhered to by every nation with any industrial development for them to actually be effective. If an economic powerhouse and supposed "world leader" decides it's not going to pull its weight, then every other nation on the planet has the grounds to pull out of the accords as well. Once Trump gets out of office, it won't be as simple as just "Okay, he's gone, let's reinstate the accords." He will have already done irreparable damage to the agreement, and put us back at square one. He has the potential to not just delay the desperately needed mitigation of the climate catastrophe, but actually set us back several years or even decades.
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Actually not trying to be cute; just finding it difficult to believe that 4 years of business as usual will mean death. I think you're being overly dramatic.
Trump has already said he is going to ignore the Paris Climate Accords, which are a comprehensive start to the work we need to do to save the ecosystem. The Paris Accords need to be adhered to by every nation with any industrial development for them to actually be effective. If an economic powerhouse and supposed "world leader" decides it's not going to pull its weight, then every other nation on the planet has the grounds to pull out of the accords as well. Once Trump gets out of office, it won't be as simple as just "Okay, he's gone, let's reinstate the accords." He will have already done irreparable damage to the agreement, and put us back at square one. He has the potential to not just delay the desperately needed mitigation of the climate catastrophe, but actually set us back several years or even decades.
Trump came out to CA once back in March or April. His visit drew two different reactions (just hearsay from people I know):
Liberals - He says there's no drought here, what an idiot!
Conservatives - He's right, Democrats value fish over people.
That's the problem with the climate change argument. If you focus on polar bears, coral reefs and endangered species, the blue collar workers in Wisconsin and Ohio don't care. They think you value fish over them. Instead, connect the environment to things the average Joe can relate to. Hammer home what lack of regulation can do to clean water, like Flint Michigan.
Somehow I knew if I said anything to that it would be constured as racism. No, I do not mean when people owned other people. Please continue to demonize me and the people that voted for Trump. It will make the election in 4 years that much easier to win. It's sad to hear you say people could never have faith in their fellow man.
Also, Please explain to the 92 million people not in the workforce how great the opportunities are out there for them.
And you have missed the point of what Dox did by making a counterpoint to each of your posts. It being there is no such thing as a golden age of history for any country. We just mythologise the good bits of it and blank ourselves to the bad. Whilst ignoring the good things that happen now and hightlighting the bad.
Yes there might be 92 million not in the workforce but that is not the only datapoint. In alot of other areas like LGBTQ awareness and support we are currently the best it has ever been in the US and Europe. Same with health care for all it is derided Obama care finally does something about the amount of people forced into bankruptcy because their insurance company refused to pay their medical bills or because they weren't able to get affordable cover.
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That's the problem with the climate change argument. If you focus on polar bears, coral reefs and endangered species, the blue collar workers in Wisconsin and Ohio don't care. They think you value fish over them. Instead, connect the environment to things the average Joe can relate to. Hammer home what lack of regulation can do to clean water, like Flint Michigan.
What happened in Flint Michigan was not due to a lack of regulation, it was due to certain individuals not following the regulations that were in place and then that criminal oversight being rubber stamped all the way up the line without anyone checking, then a criminal cover up of the oversight once the truth was discovered. Negligence, followed by negligence, followed by cover up, denial and damage control until critical mass was reached and the sludge hit the fan.
Not a lack of regulation.
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My point being that I said nothing denoting slavery and the counter-point is to automatically say I'm implying slavery. This is the liberal attitude that lost them the election. They constantly call anyone who disagrees with them a racist and we non-racists got sick and tired of it.
The inevitable surge in hate crimes, and all associated deaths and woundings are on you and those who voted with you. That's what voting is: responsibility.
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You're side is not interested in dialogue. Only lambasting the other side and forcing your ideas on them. You never compromise and everything is in absolutes. Look at this thread - still at it eh
My side is not interested in fairy tales:
1. That you can cut taxes & increase government revenue at the same time
2. That building a wall will solve our problems
3. That evolution is not the way the world works
4. That global warming is just a "theory"
There's a world. It works in measurable, understandable ways. Science & Data allow us to determine what affect our actions have on the world. No amount of bloviating will change that. If you want to be a conservative within the bounds of how systems and the world works, then fine, we can hash it out and have a conversation. If you want to totally ignore all of that, then, yeah it's going to be hard for us to talk.
For 8 years republicans refused to do their jobs. To compromise to do anything. They took the ball and sat on it. And now we've handed the whole country over to them without any stop gaps. Whatever they do in the next 4 years is totally their own decision. They won't consult us. They won't compromise. Maybe it won't be that bad, but history suggests otherwise.
1. Deregulation between the 70s & 90s has caused measurable damage to our economy. And austerity now will do that again
2. 20 million people losing health care may spare a few from losing their businesses, but it'll cause way more to suffer in medical bankruptcy, and we'll return to an extreme path of medical debt
3. Breaking up children from their families will cause broken families and create more poverty
4. Doing nothing about global warming will destabilize ecosystems and drown our coastal cities. The xkcd comic shows just how uncharted this territory is. There's some truth that some adaptation will happen, but we're in the largest species die off since the last mass extinction and the acidification of the oceans is going to have real consequence. Opening up the remaining oil reserves might just making things worse (best case) or they might totally tip the scales on Armageddon.
5. Growing the wealth gap with regressive government policies will feel pretty good in the immediate, but this populist uprising isn't going away. We elected wolves and an alpha wolf to curb the wolves, and that's throwing bad after bad.
Also, if your argument is that this is a Christian country. I'm not interested because it's not.
If your argument is that Social Justice is awful, I'm not interested because Social Justice is just making sure everyone is treated equally under the law, a ******* normal endeavor totally in line with our values that was created by judeo-christian orthodoxy.
If I'd heard anything resembling a plan in the last 8 years instead of a bunch of moaning and grumbling then maybe I'd take the other side seriously. Instead, all I heard was that my pres was from Kenya, that I was trying to ruin America, and that human beings should be treated as less than. That this was a Christian country with a capital C and if I didn't like I could move the **** out. I heard, "Liberals can't get anything done" while the republicans held congress and refused to do anything other than investigate Benghazi 12 times and pass pointless Obamacare repeal after repeal. And then they degenerated into chanting "Lock Her Up!"
I'm sorry. Are you really claiming that you want to talk to me? Because I don't believe you.
Argue the same topics hammered over and over again with the same statements until somebody walks away? Voting worked much better.
That's a perfect example. You took a statement that said %70 of the country is christian/catholic, and implied that I'm arguing its "a christian country" a la that's our official declared religion or some similar notion. I also said nothing about climate change. That's just looking for topics to fight about. There's already years of that topic on MTGS regurgitated repeatedly.
So the actual point of that line was:
People cannot wage all out war on their core beliefs and then wonder why they won't align with them. %70 of the population is a staggering amount. Every POTUS since Kennedy has visited with the pope (Yes I know, Catholic vs Christian) because they realize just how important this political play is. Saying "Stronger Together" when its time to get elected, then gutting religion as part of the "2016 progress plan" isn't the way to win alignment.
The church is under a social assault - the more threatened they feel, the more right they will lean. Its simple self preservation. So in symbolism - it may be better to just drive past the tree and ignore it, than rally to have it taken down, effectively pissing off most of the town. Then after reminding them what this progress plan has in store for them, expecting them to vote toward that direction, while relying on their holiday to support the economy.
Note that I said people, and don't draw any implications outside of that please.
A question I've never really gotten an answer to from a Trump supporter: what time period is being referred to when you say "again"?
When American produced more than it imported.
When people built their lives for themselves and didn't rely on the government.
When we could actually have faith in our fellow man to do the right thing
When we could go outside without a fear of someone blowing themselves up solely to terrorize.
I hope these answers suffice.
No, it doesn't suffice. Vague platitudes do not make a time period. Can you give me a year? Or even a decade?
When American produced more than it imported.
When people built their lives for themselves and didn't rely on the government.
When we could actually have faith in our fellow man to do the right thing
When we could go outside without a fear of someone blowing themselves up solely to terrorize.
I hope these answers suffice.
No, it doesn't suffice. Vague platitudes do not make a time period. Can you give me a year? Or even a decade?
Somehow I knew if I said anything to that it would be constured as racism. No, I do not mean when people owned other people.
Then perhaps you would like to clarify what time period you meant instead of leaving it vague. All I did was give examples of how many Americans were far worse off in those vague idea points you gave than they are now.
This article is the best explanation I've read thusfar for Trump's success. Particularly eye-opening is a map that shows the 2012 election by county (here's the link) as opposed to by state. It taught me two things I had never realized:
1. Lake Michigan really IS shaped like a dick.
2. I never knew just how prevalent Republican voters really were in this country, and how local to urban areas Democratic support is.
And that really emphasizes one of the biggest problems with EVERYONE'S perception of the election. We wrote off the idea of Trump winning because we severely underestimated both the amount of Republican support in the country and the voting power of middle-class white voters. And indeed, the tendency of people to overlook middle-class white voters was one of the reason those middle-class white voters voted the way they did. People will tend to vote the person who doesn't overlook them, even if that person is horrifying.
There were a LOT of people who voted for Trump that were not captured by pollsters because they didn't want to tell anyone that they were voting for Trump. Want to know why? Well, here's a video that came out recently that is a good example of why people keep their support of Trump in secret:
That is just one example, but hopefully you understand where I'm coming from. There are a lot of places in the country where coming out as a Trump supporter is a death wish waiting to happen. Even in Anytown USA, you're better off keeping your support for Trump as a secret because the fear of ostracism is very real. Personally for me I have seen so much backlash on my Facebook feed over people reacting over "hidden Trump supporters". It really is sickening to think about.
It also happens on this very forum. Every time a Trump supporter came onto this forum they were brutally lambasted to the point they left in disgust. Now we're seeing Trump supporters on the forum come out of the woodwork post-election and it turns out there were more of them than this echo chamber was willing to see.
My point being that I said nothing denoting slavery and the counter-point is to automatically say I'm implying slavery. This is the liberal attitude that lost them the election. They constantly call anyone who disagrees with them a racist and we non-racists got sick and tired of it.
The inevitable surge in hate crimes, and all associated deaths and woundings are on you and those who voted with you. That's what voting is: responsibility.
In the way that attending mosque makes you responsible for the San Bernadino or Orlando attacks, or voting for Jill Stein makes you responsible for an ELF bombing or voting for Hillary makes you responsible for the current violence in Oakland, etc. Which is to say not at all. Crazy people gonna be crazy. This will likely flush some of the morons out of their holes and that is terrifying but they're already there, and that's the problem.
David Duke carried 3% of the vote in the Senate race in Louisiana. That's impressive in the sense that there were several candidates running but at the end of the day, it's just 3%. That's about 3% too much, but it gives you a good sense of how many of these people there really are. And within that 3%, many have no interest in taking action. The point is, dismissing 59,000,000+ votes as if they're all endorsing racism is ridiculous. The Democrats tried to do that and now they're paying for it.
Quote from gum0nshoe »
There was zero anti-religous rhetoric in Clinton's campaign. So, yeah, you're making **** up.
I was a little uneasy with the suggestion that people like Murdoch are only Catholic because they desperately want to be Evangelical but can't admit it to others.
Quote from cranial_extraction »
My point being that I said nothing denoting slavery and the counter-point is to automatically say I'm implying slavery. This is the liberal attitude that lost them the election. They constantly call anyone who disagrees with them a racist and we non-racists got sick and tired of it.
IMO, that's a big aspect of this that is not being recognized. As a non-Trump voter in a relatively liberal area, I was surprised to find out how many of my white male (and even female) friends were Trump supporters. I even had a friend that was an avid supporter of Bernie and was contemplating whether Jill Stein or Trump was the right choice for him. None of these were the kinds of people that I've ever heard a racial remark from, nor a comment about immigration, radical Islam or anything of the like. The general feeling that I gathered from these people was that there was a sense that the Democrats really didn't care about them because they didn't fit into any specific special interest group.
I would urge the media and Democrats to stop with this narrative that we have 59,000,000 foaming at the mouth white racists (some of which are not white yet still white racists). Because if that's true, we're all screwed anyway. But if it's not true and you continue to ignore all those people then they are going to keep pooling in a block with the few who truly are 'deplorable.' Wake up.
This will likely flush some of the morons out of their holes and that is terrifying but they're already there, and that's the problem.
Yeah, that is a large part of the problem. When someone who uses the tactical throwing-of-minorities-under-the-bus gets elected, that makes people with horrible bigoted ideas feel like they're welcome in society and can do what they want, leading to noticeable spikes in hate crimes and increased mobilization of hate groups. This always happens.
Trump appears to be taking the commitments he made to the white lower/middle class voters seriously.
How so? He's not even in office yet. How can you make such a huge assumption? Not to mention he made a much bigger commitment to the upper class than anyone else.
When we could go outside without a fear of someone blowing themselves up solely to terrorize.
Are you legitimately afraid of this? that's kind of silly...
See this argument of "the glory of years past" never holds up because believe it or not life is pretty nice right now for more Americans than it ever has been in our history. More people have opportunity now than in any other period of time.
Somehow I knew if I said anything to that it would be constured as racism. No, I do not mean when people owned other people. Please continue to demonize me and the people that voted for Trump. It will make the election in 4 years that much easier to win. It's sad to hear you say people could never have faith in their fellow man.
Also, Please explain to the 92 million people not in the workforce how great the opportunities are out there for them.
uhhhh...there are not 92 million unemployed americans. Unless you're including ever single person under the age of 18. The number of unemployed americans is ~5 or 6 million. 92 million would be an unemployment rate of >40%.
It also happens on this very forum. Every time a Trump supporter came onto this forum they were brutally lambasted to the point they left in disgust.
Right, because their arguments were factually incorrect and often outright immoral. You seem to be under the strange impression that because Trump won, he was the moral and responsible choice. Guess what, he still isn't. I know you love the idea that this is some grand revolution. It's not. It's STILL a bunch of desperate people getting scammed by a con-man. Trump winning does not make him correct.
Nor does he make you correct. "Trump supporters are neither silent nor a majority," remains valid. The problem is the same problem that there was in the primary, which is that there was no energized countermovement against Trump that gathered around a particular candidate.
I will concede that Trump had a greater appeal among white people than I previously thought, however.
There was zero anti-religous rhetoric in Clinton's campaign. So, yeah, you're making **** up..
Not Hillary Clinton specifically. That wasn't typed. A vote for that party is a vote for at least 4 if not 8 years of this current status quo regarding faith and society. She would simply be the butt of that snake. I'm sure if elected, she'd head over to visit the Pope too. Business as usual.
I do not care if 70% of the country belongs to some kind of Church. I don't. And I have the freedom to make that choice and the government has no business kowtowing to people who want their religion legislated. If you want to believe in god: fine. If you want to believe that homosexuality is immoral: fine. If you want the government to enforce or respect those view points you can gtfo.
You got your ruling. Its not in danger of being undone. Further rants not needed.
My point being that I said nothing denoting slavery and the counter-point is to automatically say I'm implying slavery.
True. Dox was out of line.
But you know what you did say? "We". Imagine you're black. Is there any time in American history when you could have faith in your fellow man to do the right thing by you? Is there any time when you don't have to worry about being terrorized by those who hate you? So when you say "we", it's pretty clear that whether consciously or unconsciously, you're really only talking about "white people". And that's kind of a problem. Because in America, nonwhites are "we" too.
And that's without getting into the fact that your concern about imports vs. production is a tired old economic fallacy, or that your other statements are pointless bromides describing a fairy tale, or that no president has the power to make our fellow man do the right thing anyway (particularly not a president who is a self-admitted sexual predator).
This will likely flush some of the morons out of their holes and that is terrifying but they're already there, and that's the problem.
Yeah, that is a large part of the problem. When someone who uses the tactical throwing-of-minorities-under-the-bus gets elected, that makes people with horrible bigoted ideas feel like they're welcome in society and can do what they want, leading to noticeable spikes in hate crimes and increased mobilization of hate groups. This always happens.
In 2008, in the middle of an economic crisis (which is the kind of thing that tends to stoke racial tension), the U.S. elected its first bi-racial President. Though recovering, the economy was still sluggish and, 4 years later, Americans went ahead and re-elected that same bi-racial President. After 4 more years and with a better economy (overall, not necessarily locally), that bi-racial President had good approval ratings heading into the 2016 election. Then, completely out of nowhere, Trump becomes President elect. Because racism?
Why did Trump fare better with blacks and hispanics than Romney did? What is responsible for this surge in what you call racism? Backlash against a bi-racial President that won convincingly in back to back elections, against a President who was still popular on the eve of the election? Backlash against a national economy that's in crisis? In short, where have these 59 million racists been for the past 8 years?
Hey, maybe you're right. Maybe whites are the enemy. But you know what didn't help the cause? Treating whites as the enemy. Maybe the Democrats have learned not to treat them as such next time.
Quote from Surging Chaos »
Way back ago in the Trump thread I told you about the silent majority and how it was a thing. You scoffed at the idea ignored me at your own peril. Who's laughing now?
This is hysterical. The meltdown is real. Embrace it.
David Duke carried 3% of the vote in the Senate race in Louisiana. That's impressive in the sense that there were several candidates running but at the end of the day, it's just 3%. That's about 3% too much, but it gives you a good sense of how many of these people there really are. And within that 3%, many have no interest in taking action. The point is, dismissing 59,000,000+ votes as if they're all endorsing racism is ridiculous. The Democrats tried to do that and now they're paying for it.
David Duke got 3% of the vote in one of the least white states in America (only Hawaii, Mississippi, Maryland and Georgia are less white than Louisiana) - presumably his support is almost exclusively from the white portion of the voters, of which he won perhaps 5%. He did so without any significant funding. He did so as an actual former KKK grand wizard. He received over 50,000 votes, and even made it to the debate stage (perhaps a lesson in what happens when you lower that bar too much).
But you're right, there aren't 59,000,000 David Dukes out there. If we extrapolate his 58,581 votes in Louisiana to the US population, there are perhaps about 4,000,000 David Duke voters out there (Louisiana is perhaps more racist than the average, but also has far fewer white voters than the average). You then have many millions more who are perhaps unwilling to outright vote for a KKK grand wizard, but are still pretty racist. Beyond that you have those are probably not terribly racist, but are basically unbothered by racism. The type of people who look back at the 1950s and think that was when America was "great".
Hey, maybe you're right. Maybe whites are the enemy. But you know what didn't help the cause? Treating whites as the enemy. Maybe the Democrats have learned not to treat them as such next time.
They didn't do it this time. This may come as a shock to you, but Hillary Clinton is white.
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candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
That's the problem with the climate change argument. If you focus on polar bears, coral reefs and endangered species, the blue collar workers in Wisconsin and Ohio don't care. They think you value fish over them. Instead, connect the environment to things the average Joe can relate to. Hammer home what lack of regulation can do to clean water, like Flint Michigan.
What happened in Flint Michigan was not due to a lack of regulation, it was due to certain individuals not following the regulations that were in place and then that criminal oversight being rubber stamped all the way up the line without anyone checking, then a criminal cover up of the oversight once the truth was discovered. Negligence, followed by negligence, followed by cover up, denial and damage control until critical mass was reached and the sludge hit the fan.
Not a lack of regulation.
Maybe a lack of effective regulation since it was easy for a small number of people to just "not follow certain regulations" and the engage in a criminal cover up. If your government officials that you elect (Hey R's) don't believe regulation is necessary, is it surprising that they try to ignore it when in office. If you elect people who are so fundamentally broken then of course the systems aren't going to work. Especially when you siphon the money off and refuse to give anyone the teeth to enforce the regs.
Again, that is not what happened in this case.
It was criminal stupidity and a cover up.
This is not a Democrat vs Republican issue. There is blame to go for everyone involved, Democrat and Republican in this case but those are not distinctions that have any real bearing here.
This tragedy was bipartisan and they everyone involved deserves blame and to pay for what their negligence, indifference and cover up did to the innocent people of Flint.
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Not Hillary Clinton specifically. That wasn't typed. A vote for that party is a vote for at least 4 if not 8 years of this current status quo regarding faith and society.
Which is what exactly? I'm sorry, if Hillary didn't represent that I'm at a loss for what you're complaining about government wise. Because there's been no assault on faith. If you feel like I'm jumping to conclusions maybe it's all this vague hand waving you're doing that I'm misinterpreting.
You got your ruling. Its not in danger of being undone. Further rants not needed.
It's not a rant, and it's not my ruling. It's the way government does and should operate. And, for all we know it could be in danger now that republicans are about to win control of the court again.
What do you not understand about that? Stop fixating on Hillary Clinton. Shes part of the current progression path. A vote for her, is voting for that progression path. In the last 10 years, it has been very evident that that progression path is working against the faith - not working with it. This isn't limited to one topic regarding gay marriage. And what I'm trying to tell you, is given that 70% of Americans ARE Christian or Catholic, working against them rather than with them will only push them farther right politically to protect themselves. I'm trying to tell you, that you will catch more bees with honey than vinegar, and more bees means more people supporting your progression plan, and in the end more chances of getting your candidate ELECTED to spearhead that progression plan. I am telling you, that this is is the very reason the POTUS's make efforts to visit the Pope - because they are smart enough to know who influences the bees. But the effort is not theirs alone. One person running for president is not enough to influence the bees. Since it has been nothing but vinegar in the current progression plan, the bees are moving to the right, because the right has always protected them. Do a quick study on how bees voted. If only you had more bees...
I used the removal of the tree, though one limited example, because that one strikes at the heart of everyone around it, and sends a message about our future in this progression plan. Winning such a victory - only in the name of separation of church and state - does not help them in the long run. It hurts them. Badly.
Now if you reply that bees can't vote... man I don't even know.
We see the same populist tendency here in Europe. We can't stay right between ourselves; we need to go out and explain to those afraid of progress why conservative policies will hurt them in the long run, the same way you don't fight violence by violence.
Clinton got more popular votes. This Electoral College thing is actually a shabby system. I understand there was a bygone time it served as a balance against potential dictatorship. Now, ironically enough, it serves it.
True.
But imagine if he led that plan with building the wall or the illegal immigrant part.
I do think that the order matters in terms of what Trump feels is actually relevant.
Trump has already said he is going to ignore the Paris Climate Accords, which are a comprehensive start to the work we need to do to save the ecosystem. The Paris Accords need to be adhered to by every nation with any industrial development for them to actually be effective. If an economic powerhouse and supposed "world leader" decides it's not going to pull its weight, then every other nation on the planet has the grounds to pull out of the accords as well. Once Trump gets out of office, it won't be as simple as just "Okay, he's gone, let's reinstate the accords." He will have already done irreparable damage to the agreement, and put us back at square one. He has the potential to not just delay the desperately needed mitigation of the climate catastrophe, but actually set us back several years or even decades.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Trump came out to CA once back in March or April. His visit drew two different reactions (just hearsay from people I know):
Liberals - He says there's no drought here, what an idiot!
Conservatives - He's right, Democrats value fish over people.
That's the problem with the climate change argument. If you focus on polar bears, coral reefs and endangered species, the blue collar workers in Wisconsin and Ohio don't care. They think you value fish over them. Instead, connect the environment to things the average Joe can relate to. Hammer home what lack of regulation can do to clean water, like Flint Michigan.
And you have missed the point of what Dox did by making a counterpoint to each of your posts. It being there is no such thing as a golden age of history for any country. We just mythologise the good bits of it and blank ourselves to the bad. Whilst ignoring the good things that happen now and hightlighting the bad.
Yes there might be 92 million not in the workforce but that is not the only datapoint. In alot of other areas like LGBTQ awareness and support we are currently the best it has ever been in the US and Europe. Same with health care for all it is derided Obama care finally does something about the amount of people forced into bankruptcy because their insurance company refused to pay their medical bills or because they weren't able to get affordable cover.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Not a lack of regulation.
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The inevitable surge in hate crimes, and all associated deaths and woundings are on you and those who voted with you. That's what voting is: responsibility.
Art is life itself.
Argue the same topics hammered over and over again with the same statements until somebody walks away? Voting worked much better.
That's a perfect example. You took a statement that said %70 of the country is christian/catholic, and implied that I'm arguing its "a christian country" a la that's our official declared religion or some similar notion. I also said nothing about climate change. That's just looking for topics to fight about. There's already years of that topic on MTGS regurgitated repeatedly.
So the actual point of that line was:
People cannot wage all out war on their core beliefs and then wonder why they won't align with them. %70 of the population is a staggering amount. Every POTUS since Kennedy has visited with the pope (Yes I know, Catholic vs Christian) because they realize just how important this political play is. Saying "Stronger Together" when its time to get elected, then gutting religion as part of the "2016 progress plan" isn't the way to win alignment.
The church is under a social assault - the more threatened they feel, the more right they will lean. Its simple self preservation. So in symbolism - it may be better to just drive past the tree and ignore it, than rally to have it taken down, effectively pissing off most of the town. Then after reminding them what this progress plan has in store for them, expecting them to vote toward that direction, while relying on their holiday to support the economy.
Note that I said people, and don't draw any implications outside of that please.
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Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
As far as I can tell the years are:
1975
1935
???
2016
A bit all over the map.
I didn't demonize anyone just stated facts.
There were a LOT of people who voted for Trump that were not captured by pollsters because they didn't want to tell anyone that they were voting for Trump. Want to know why? Well, here's a video that came out recently that is a good example of why people keep their support of Trump in secret:
https://streamable.com/6nwo
That is just one example, but hopefully you understand where I'm coming from. There are a lot of places in the country where coming out as a Trump supporter is a death wish waiting to happen. Even in Anytown USA, you're better off keeping your support for Trump as a secret because the fear of ostracism is very real. Personally for me I have seen so much backlash on my Facebook feed over people reacting over "hidden Trump supporters". It really is sickening to think about.
It also happens on this very forum. Every time a Trump supporter came onto this forum they were brutally lambasted to the point they left in disgust. Now we're seeing Trump supporters on the forum come out of the woodwork post-election and it turns out there were more of them than this echo chamber was willing to see.
Way back ago in the Trump thread I told you about the silent majority and how it was a thing. You scoffed at the idea ignored me at your own peril. Who's laughing now?
In the way that attending mosque makes you responsible for the San Bernadino or Orlando attacks, or voting for Jill Stein makes you responsible for an ELF bombing or voting for Hillary makes you responsible for the current violence in Oakland, etc. Which is to say not at all. Crazy people gonna be crazy. This will likely flush some of the morons out of their holes and that is terrifying but they're already there, and that's the problem.
David Duke carried 3% of the vote in the Senate race in Louisiana. That's impressive in the sense that there were several candidates running but at the end of the day, it's just 3%. That's about 3% too much, but it gives you a good sense of how many of these people there really are. And within that 3%, many have no interest in taking action. The point is, dismissing 59,000,000+ votes as if they're all endorsing racism is ridiculous. The Democrats tried to do that and now they're paying for it.
I was a little uneasy with the suggestion that people like Murdoch are only Catholic because they desperately want to be Evangelical but can't admit it to others.
IMO, that's a big aspect of this that is not being recognized. As a non-Trump voter in a relatively liberal area, I was surprised to find out how many of my white male (and even female) friends were Trump supporters. I even had a friend that was an avid supporter of Bernie and was contemplating whether Jill Stein or Trump was the right choice for him. None of these were the kinds of people that I've ever heard a racial remark from, nor a comment about immigration, radical Islam or anything of the like. The general feeling that I gathered from these people was that there was a sense that the Democrats really didn't care about them because they didn't fit into any specific special interest group.
I would urge the media and Democrats to stop with this narrative that we have 59,000,000 foaming at the mouth white racists (some of which are not white yet still white racists). Because if that's true, we're all screwed anyway. But if it's not true and you continue to ignore all those people then they are going to keep pooling in a block with the few who truly are 'deplorable.' Wake up.
Meanwhile: Trump's Tax plan sucks for low income Americans, particularly those with larger families. Taxes will go down for businesses and the rich. Yay, centralizing wealth in the hands of the already wealthy, allowing them to further influence national and international law.
Art is life itself.
uhhhh...there are not 92 million unemployed americans. Unless you're including ever single person under the age of 18. The number of unemployed americans is ~5 or 6 million. 92 million would be an unemployment rate of >40%.
Nor does he make you correct. "Trump supporters are neither silent nor a majority," remains valid. The problem is the same problem that there was in the primary, which is that there was no energized countermovement against Trump that gathered around a particular candidate.
I will concede that Trump had a greater appeal among white people than I previously thought, however.
Not Hillary Clinton specifically. That wasn't typed. A vote for that party is a vote for at least 4 if not 8 years of this current status quo regarding faith and society. She would simply be the butt of that snake. I'm sure if elected, she'd head over to visit the Pope too. Business as usual.
You got your ruling. Its not in danger of being undone. Further rants not needed.
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But you know what you did say? "We". Imagine you're black. Is there any time in American history when you could have faith in your fellow man to do the right thing by you? Is there any time when you don't have to worry about being terrorized by those who hate you? So when you say "we", it's pretty clear that whether consciously or unconsciously, you're really only talking about "white people". And that's kind of a problem. Because in America, nonwhites are "we" too.
And that's without getting into the fact that your concern about imports vs. production is a tired old economic fallacy, or that your other statements are pointless bromides describing a fairy tale, or that no president has the power to make our fellow man do the right thing anyway (particularly not a president who is a self-admitted sexual predator).
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
In 2008, in the middle of an economic crisis (which is the kind of thing that tends to stoke racial tension), the U.S. elected its first bi-racial President. Though recovering, the economy was still sluggish and, 4 years later, Americans went ahead and re-elected that same bi-racial President. After 4 more years and with a better economy (overall, not necessarily locally), that bi-racial President had good approval ratings heading into the 2016 election. Then, completely out of nowhere, Trump becomes President elect. Because racism?
Why did Trump fare better with blacks and hispanics than Romney did? What is responsible for this surge in what you call racism? Backlash against a bi-racial President that won convincingly in back to back elections, against a President who was still popular on the eve of the election? Backlash against a national economy that's in crisis? In short, where have these 59 million racists been for the past 8 years?
Hey, maybe you're right. Maybe whites are the enemy. But you know what didn't help the cause? Treating whites as the enemy. Maybe the Democrats have learned not to treat them as such next time.
This is hysterical. The meltdown is real. Embrace it.
David Duke got 3% of the vote in one of the least white states in America (only Hawaii, Mississippi, Maryland and Georgia are less white than Louisiana) - presumably his support is almost exclusively from the white portion of the voters, of which he won perhaps 5%. He did so without any significant funding. He did so as an actual former KKK grand wizard. He received over 50,000 votes, and even made it to the debate stage (perhaps a lesson in what happens when you lower that bar too much).
But you're right, there aren't 59,000,000 David Dukes out there. If we extrapolate his 58,581 votes in Louisiana to the US population, there are perhaps about 4,000,000 David Duke voters out there (Louisiana is perhaps more racist than the average, but also has far fewer white voters than the average). You then have many millions more who are perhaps unwilling to outright vote for a KKK grand wizard, but are still pretty racist. Beyond that you have those are probably not terribly racist, but are basically unbothered by racism. The type of people who look back at the 1950s and think that was when America was "great".
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Again, that is not what happened in this case.
It was criminal stupidity and a cover up.
This is not a Democrat vs Republican issue. There is blame to go for everyone involved, Democrat and Republican in this case but those are not distinctions that have any real bearing here.
This tragedy was bipartisan and they everyone involved deserves blame and to pay for what their negligence, indifference and cover up did to the innocent people of Flint.
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What do you not understand about that? Stop fixating on Hillary Clinton. Shes part of the current progression path. A vote for her, is voting for that progression path. In the last 10 years, it has been very evident that that progression path is working against the faith - not working with it. This isn't limited to one topic regarding gay marriage. And what I'm trying to tell you, is given that 70% of Americans ARE Christian or Catholic, working against them rather than with them will only push them farther right politically to protect themselves. I'm trying to tell you, that you will catch more bees with honey than vinegar, and more bees means more people supporting your progression plan, and in the end more chances of getting your candidate ELECTED to spearhead that progression plan. I am telling you, that this is is the very reason the POTUS's make efforts to visit the Pope - because they are smart enough to know who influences the bees. But the effort is not theirs alone. One person running for president is not enough to influence the bees. Since it has been nothing but vinegar in the current progression plan, the bees are moving to the right, because the right has always protected them. Do a quick study on how bees voted. If only you had more bees...
I used the removal of the tree, though one limited example, because that one strikes at the heart of everyone around it, and sends a message about our future in this progression plan. Winning such a victory - only in the name of separation of church and state - does not help them in the long run. It hurts them. Badly.
Now if you reply that bees can't vote... man I don't even know.
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