Anyone here still remember Yugoslavia? Any thoughts on how well the "national emancipation" initiative went there? Brits might end up being more civilized about it but Jo Cox murder suggests otherwise. It might end up being worse then Yugoslavia because it's happening in Britain and not some country in the Balkans which most people wouldn't be able to find on a map without the help of Google.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
The first was the audacity with which it was made clear to me that democracy was considered irrelevant. In the very first Eurogroup meeting that I attended, when I tried to make a point that I didn’t think would be contested – that I was representing a freshly elected government whose mandate should be respected to some extent, that it should feed into a debate on what economic policies should be applied to Greece – I was astonished to hear the German finance minister say to me, verbatim, that elections cannot be allowed to change established economic policy. In other words, that democracy is fine as long as it does not threaten to change anything!
As a German, this is a quote I have nopt seen before and that greatly scares me. I don't want to live in a country where the elected government does not believe in democratic methods of political legislation.
Not to be rude, but Germany isn't doing too well on the freedom of speech front at the moment, and I'm saying that as a Dutch person, where the police has visited people because they made remarks about the recent immigration crisis on twitter. I mean, just look at how the stuff which went down (and maybe still is, I don't know) in Cologne was handled.
Anyone here still remember Yugoslavia? Any thoughts on how well the "national emancipation" initiative went there? Brits might end up being more civilized about it but Jo Cox murder suggests otherwise. It might end up being worse then Yugoslavia because it's happening in Britain and not some country in the Balkans which most people wouldn't be able to find on a map without the help of Google.
I'm not familiar with that part of Yugoslavian history. Could you ELI5?
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We have laboured long to build a heaven, only to find it populated with horrors.
[quote from="Drekavac »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/debate/695703-brexit?comment=59"]Sad day, with worse days yet to come...
Anyone here still remember Yugoslavia? Any thoughts on how well the "national emancipation" initiative went there? Brits might end up being more civilized about it but Jo Cox murder suggests otherwise. It might end up being worse then Yugoslavia because it's happening in Britain and not some country in the Balkans which most people wouldn't be able to find on a map without the help of Google.
I'm not familiar with that part of Yugoslavian history. Could you ELI5?
A decade long period of Bloody Civil war as the country came apart after teh fall of the Soviet Union. Somehow I don't think it will be quiet so bad in the UK even if this incident does lead to the dismantling of the Union.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
I'm not familiar with that part of Yugoslavian history. Could you ELI5?
Basically what happened was after Tito, the undisputed leader of the nation, died nationalist movements became more vocal. Everyone was complaining how the federal state is exploiting them and that they got a raw deal, some (Serbs in particular) were more vocal about this then others. One thing leading to another the end result was that the Yugoslavia fell apart, the states that came after it were taken down a few pegs economy-wise, extreme nationalists are still a dominant force in domestic politics and the region hasn't recovered since, not really. Needles to say, most of the former countries wealth was usurped by corrupt elites in dubious privatization schemes in the name of the people and for the sake of overall prosperity. All this came about during a bloody civil war which live in memory as a conflict that brought about the greatest atrocities on European soil since WW2, among which were Srebrenica, the siege of Sarajevo, the exodus of just under half a million Serbs from Croatia, the bombing of Dubrovnik (the place were GoT series will be filmed much later) and innumerable others.
Granted, it might not be as grim when GB is concerned, but anytime nationalists take center stage and start expressing the concerns of "the people" I can only look upon them with dread and skepticism based on personal experience. One thing I'm certain is that brexit will bring about great strife between nationalist movements in the UK which might start out civil but there is no real guarantee that they will stay civil (Joe Cox murder). During the ensuing commotion a few big wigs in the UK will probably try to "redistribute" the Brussels founds into their own pockets and the people who voted based on the recommendations of populist leaders will get the short end of the stick.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Obviously, half or more of their people felt this way. You have to respect that.
Why? You just said "every logical view suggests its a bad move." If every logical view suggests it's a bad move, then why should anyone respect it?
Topic of regrets aside for a moment
Because its a basic fundamental of democracy. The majority if people in that region want this for themselves. So while you or I may believe that's a stupid decision, its their decision. What's actually driving it doesn't matter. And all too often, despite the majority of people in a region choosing something for themselves, some entity steps in and tells them what's good for them and how its going to be. Half the time we don't even get to vote on the crap, its just passed and put in place. Or its simply done.
.......
Then on the topic of regret, I bet a lot of that is because the rest of the world and their own government is painting the situation like the sky is falling. But many Britts (and Scots) on my LINE are pretty happy about it overall. Many believe the EU acts like a dictatorship.
Now, did you mean we have to respect their decision in that we have we have to enact, follow, or carry out their decision? If so, ok, I agree.
But if you said we have to "respect" their decision as we have to respect their decision, then no. We are under absolutely no obligation to pay anyone who goes against every logical view respect. That's what I'm saying.
Obviously, half or more of their people felt this way. You have to respect that.
Why? You just said "every logical view suggests its a bad move." If every logical view suggests it's a bad move, then why should anyone respect it?
Topic of regrets aside for a moment
Because its a basic fundamental of democracy. The majority if people in that region want this for themselves. So while you or I may believe that's a stupid decision, its their decision. What's actually driving it doesn't matter. And all too often, despite the majority of people in a region choosing something for themselves, some entity steps in and tells them what's good for them and how its going to be. Half the time we don't even get to vote on the crap, its just passed and put in place. Or its simply done.
A: I'd hardly call 54% a proper majority.
B: Tyranny of the majority and abandonment of rationality are two of the dangers of a democracy, and both of them are taking place here, arguably.
Then on the topic of regret, I bet a lot of that is because the rest of the world and their own government is painting the situation like the sky is falling. But many Britts (and Scots) on my LINE are pretty happy about it overall. Many believe the EU acts like a dictatorship.
And what examples for this supposed dictatorial behaviour do they have?
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We have laboured long to build a heaven, only to find it populated with horrors.
A: I'd hardly call 54% a proper majority.
B: Tyranny of the majority and abandonment of rationality are two of the dangers of a democracy, and both of them are taking place here, arguably.
I would hardly call voting against your country being part of a larger governing body "Tyranny".
And what examples for this supposed dictatorial behaviour do they have?
A: I'd hardly call 54% a proper majority.
B: Tyranny of the majority and abandonment of rationality are two of the dangers of a democracy, and both of them are taking place here, arguably.
I would hardly call voting against your country being part of a larger governing body "Tyranny".
Those words, in that configuration they don't mean what you want them to do.
And what examples for this supposed dictatorial behaviour do they have?
It would help your case a lot more if you actually linked to specific articles instead of a google search that is tracking every instance of the words EU dicatorship.
Its about as bad as the claim made on the Brexit film about the number of regulations regarding pillows, where they totalled up the number of clauses which contained the word 'pillow' regardless of whether they referred to the furnishing item that you rest your head on when you sleep or breakfast cereals, gears or scientific equipment. https://www.google.com/search?q= EU dictatorship[/quote]
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
It's bloody hilarious that no one in Britain has a proper plan for Brexit. Even the political leaders who were promoting Leave have no plan on how to carry it out coz they weren't actually expecting to win, and now they are backing away from the promises they were making during the campaign. Both major parties of the parliament are in shambles. The whole thing is a mess.
Regardless of how one may feel about the EU or whether a 52% majority is slim or not, the fact that there is no one with a coherent, concrete plan on how to carry out Brexit should give people pause.
It's bloody hilarious that no one in Britain has a proper plan for Brexit. Even the political leaders who were promoting Leave have no plan on how to carry it out coz they weren't actually expecting to win, and now they are backing away from the promises they were making during the campaign. Both major parties of the parliament are in shambles. The whole thing is a mess.
Regardless of how one may feel about the EU or whether a 52% majority is slim or not, the fact that there is no one with a coherent, concrete plan on how to carry out Brexit should give people pause.
Many of the promises were hyperbolic and contradictory. eg. farmers were promised that the UK government would replace any EU subsidies they were getting but the same money was also promised to the health care system. Emotion driven campaigns are often full of those types of promises.
This reminds me of the last Quebec independence referendum in Canada. The things promised by the Yes side seemed quite unworkable and a Yes victory would have been a giant mess. Thankfully No won that one.
It's bloody hilarious that no one in Britain has a proper plan for Brexit. Even the political leaders who were promoting Leave have no plan on how to carry it out coz they weren't actually expecting to win, and now they are backing away from the promises they were making during the campaign. Both major parties of the parliament are in shambles. The whole thing is a mess.
Regardless of how one may feel about the EU or whether a 52% majority is slim or not, the fact that there is no one with a coherent, concrete plan on how to carry out Brexit should give people pause.
Many of the promises were hyperbolic and contradictory. eg. farmers were promised that the UK government would replace any EU subsidies they were getting but the same money was also promised to the health care system. Emotion driven campaigns are often full of those types of promises.
This reminds me of the last Quebec independence referendum in Canada. The things promised by the Yes side seemed quite unworkable and a Yes victory would have been a giant mess. Thankfully No won that one.
I expect that there will be an election in the UK within a year or less.
Now, did you mean we have to respect their decision in that we have we have to enact, follow, or carry out their decision? If so, ok, I agree.
But if you said we have to "respect" their decision as we have to respect their decision, then no. We are under absolutely no obligation to pay anyone who goes against every logical view respect. That's what I'm saying.
technically the brexit's two outcomes aren't bad or good in the sense neither ultimately ends britain. economically we are getting hung up on how logically this is bad for the next several months to few years and its impacts on the rest of us. Britian is an economic power house it will endure and have global impact in the decades to come despite leaving the EU. Besides if there history is any track record, ******* with the globe is what Britian does best, no reason to think they will stop now. I think if things take a turn and produce a result of British Economic Despression equitable to the 1930's global depression which can be tied back to Brexit, then we can say definitively this was a horrible move! You can say that logical advice against the brexit was insurmountable all you want and they shouldn't have made the decision to do it in the face of that insurmountable logic, but we are caught up in information and facts that are wire too much to the short term, for there to be any definitive on the matter.
I don't think there will be a lot of global turbulance. Markets will have shift and adapt to the new trade parameters in the UK and in continental europe.
I think the worst case scenarium is other nations trying to follow that example. The risk of dissolution of the EU by itself could cause turbulance.
Aside from that, UKs economy will suffer long term consequencies. Which is aweful as loss of economic welfare is fuel to the fires of populism. I can see a new populist right wing estabilishment rising and blaming europe for the inevitable loss the UK will suffer.
As of yesterday, Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson have both attempted to flee responsibility for and/or consequences of Brexit by removing themselves from leadership/consideration for leadership.
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There is a lawsuit being filed that argues that the Prime Minister cannot just exit the EU without an Act of Parliament since that would remove rights from UK citizens currently granted to them by EU membership. It would be interesting to see how a vote on Brexit in the House of Commons would go.
Add this to the list of things everyone saw coming: racist hate crimes are up ~40% after the Brexit vote, tied to the increase in racist and anti-immigrant politics from the Leave campaign. [link]
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Anyone here still remember Yugoslavia? Any thoughts on how well the "national emancipation" initiative went there? Brits might end up being more civilized about it but Jo Cox murder suggests otherwise. It might end up being worse then Yugoslavia because it's happening in Britain and not some country in the Balkans which most people wouldn't be able to find on a map without the help of Google.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Not to be rude, but Germany isn't doing too well on the freedom of speech front at the moment, and I'm saying that as a Dutch person, where the police has visited people because they made remarks about the recent immigration crisis on twitter. I mean, just look at how the stuff which went down (and maybe still is, I don't know) in Cologne was handled.
I'm not familiar with that part of Yugoslavian history. Could you ELI5?
A decade long period of Bloody Civil war as the country came apart after teh fall of the Soviet Union. Somehow I don't think it will be quiet so bad in the UK even if this incident does lead to the dismantling of the Union.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Basically what happened was after Tito, the undisputed leader of the nation, died nationalist movements became more vocal. Everyone was complaining how the federal state is exploiting them and that they got a raw deal, some (Serbs in particular) were more vocal about this then others. One thing leading to another the end result was that the Yugoslavia fell apart, the states that came after it were taken down a few pegs economy-wise, extreme nationalists are still a dominant force in domestic politics and the region hasn't recovered since, not really. Needles to say, most of the former countries wealth was usurped by corrupt elites in dubious privatization schemes in the name of the people and for the sake of overall prosperity. All this came about during a bloody civil war which live in memory as a conflict that brought about the greatest atrocities on European soil since WW2, among which were Srebrenica, the siege of Sarajevo, the exodus of just under half a million Serbs from Croatia, the bombing of Dubrovnik (the place were GoT series will be filmed much later) and innumerable others.
Granted, it might not be as grim when GB is concerned, but anytime nationalists take center stage and start expressing the concerns of "the people" I can only look upon them with dread and skepticism based on personal experience. One thing I'm certain is that brexit will bring about great strife between nationalist movements in the UK which might start out civil but there is no real guarantee that they will stay civil (Joe Cox murder). During the ensuing commotion a few big wigs in the UK will probably try to "redistribute" the Brussels founds into their own pockets and the people who voted based on the recommendations of populist leaders will get the short end of the stick.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Topic of regrets aside for a moment
Because its a basic fundamental of democracy. The majority if people in that region want this for themselves. So while you or I may believe that's a stupid decision, its their decision. What's actually driving it doesn't matter. And all too often, despite the majority of people in a region choosing something for themselves, some entity steps in and tells them what's good for them and how its going to be. Half the time we don't even get to vote on the crap, its just passed and put in place. Or its simply done.
.......
Then on the topic of regret, I bet a lot of that is because the rest of the world and their own government is painting the situation like the sky is falling. But many Britts (and Scots) on my LINE are pretty happy about it overall. Many believe the EU acts like a dictatorship.
My Buying Thread
Now, did you mean we have to respect their decision in that we have we have to enact, follow, or carry out their decision? If so, ok, I agree.
But if you said we have to "respect" their decision as we have to respect their decision, then no. We are under absolutely no obligation to pay anyone who goes against every logical view respect. That's what I'm saying.
A: I'd hardly call 54% a proper majority.
B: Tyranny of the majority and abandonment of rationality are two of the dangers of a democracy, and both of them are taking place here, arguably.
And what examples for this supposed dictatorial behaviour do they have?
I would hardly call voting against your country being part of a larger governing body "Tyranny".
https://www.google.com/search?q= EU dictatorship
My Buying Thread
Those words, in that configuration they don't mean what you want them to do.
It would help your case a lot more if you actually linked to specific articles instead of a google search that is tracking every instance of the words EU dicatorship.
Its about as bad as the claim made on the Brexit film about the number of regulations regarding pillows, where they totalled up the number of clauses which contained the word 'pillow' regardless of whether they referred to the furnishing item that you rest your head on when you sleep or breakfast cereals, gears or scientific equipment.
https://www.google.com/search?q= EU dictatorship[/quote]
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Regardless of how one may feel about the EU or whether a 52% majority is slim or not, the fact that there is no one with a coherent, concrete plan on how to carry out Brexit should give people pause.
Many of the promises were hyperbolic and contradictory. eg. farmers were promised that the UK government would replace any EU subsidies they were getting but the same money was also promised to the health care system. Emotion driven campaigns are often full of those types of promises.
This reminds me of the last Quebec independence referendum in Canada. The things promised by the Yes side seemed quite unworkable and a Yes victory would have been a giant mess. Thankfully No won that one.
Many of the promises were hyperbolic and contradictory. eg. farmers were promised that the UK government would replace any EU subsidies they were getting but the same money was also promised to the health care system. Emotion driven campaigns are often full of those types of promises.
This reminds me of the last Quebec independence referendum in Canada. The things promised by the Yes side seemed quite unworkable and a Yes victory would have been a giant mess. Thankfully No won that one.
I expect that there will be an election in the UK within a year or less.
technically the brexit's two outcomes aren't bad or good in the sense neither ultimately ends britain. economically we are getting hung up on how logically this is bad for the next several months to few years and its impacts on the rest of us. Britian is an economic power house it will endure and have global impact in the decades to come despite leaving the EU. Besides if there history is any track record, ******* with the globe is what Britian does best, no reason to think they will stop now. I think if things take a turn and produce a result of British Economic Despression equitable to the 1930's global depression which can be tied back to Brexit, then we can say definitively this was a horrible move! You can say that logical advice against the brexit was insurmountable all you want and they shouldn't have made the decision to do it in the face of that insurmountable logic, but we are caught up in information and facts that are wire too much to the short term, for there to be any definitive on the matter.
I think the worst case scenarium is other nations trying to follow that example. The risk of dissolution of the EU by itself could cause turbulance.
Aside from that, UKs economy will suffer long term consequencies. Which is aweful as loss of economic welfare is fuel to the fires of populism. I can see a new populist right wing estabilishment rising and blaming europe for the inevitable loss the UK will suffer.
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