I find it hard to support an action that flies a flag of country inside of another country that you are trying to reinforce both your dignity and human rights in, not to mention the flag represents a country that is orders of magnitude less diverse than the US.
This is an explanation for why you are offended by someone expressing their constitutional right to free speech not why that act is disrespectful.
I'm not objecting to their protesting, their flag or their speech. I'm objecting to the symbolism of a forigen nations flag being used during a domestic political demonstration. That is not objecting to free speech.
I'm not objecting to their protesting, their flag or their speech. I'm objecting to the symbolism of a forigen nations flag being used during a domestic political demonstration. That is not objecting to free speech.
So you didn't make the claim earlier in this thread that what they are doing is disrespectful? Rhetorical question you did say that:
Again, I get what you are saying, they are not intentionally trying to offend people so that makes it okay to be disrespectful and not considerate of those around them who might take it the wrong way. I think its much more important to respect the country you live in when you are protesting. There are plenty of positive ways to demonstrate your heritage. I do not think this is one of them.
I'm not objecting to their protesting, their flag or their speech. I'm objecting to the symbolism of a forigen nations flag being used during a domestic political demonstration. That is not objecting to free speech.
So you didn't make the claim earlier in this thread that what they are doing is disrespectful? Rhetorical question you did say that:
Again, I get what you are saying, they are not intentionally trying to offend people so that makes it okay to be disrespectful and not considerate of those around them who might take it the wrong way. I think its much more important to respect the country you live in when you are protesting. There are plenty of positive ways to demonstrate your heritage. I do not think this is one of them.
Sigh..
I'm objecting to the symbolism of a forigen nations flag being used during a domestic political demonstration because it's disrespectful of the domestic nation. That is not objecting to free speech.
I'm objecting to the symbolism of a forigen nations flag being used during a domestic political demonstration because it's disrespectful of the domestic nation. That is not objecting to free speech.
Look I get that you want to have your cake and eat it too but you are in fact objecting to their expression of free speech whether you admit it or not.
I'm objecting to the symbolism of a forigen nations flag being used during a domestic political demonstration because it's disrespectful of the domestic nation. That is not objecting to free speech.
Look I get that you want to have your cake and eat it too but you are in fact objecting to their expression of free speech whether you admit it or not.
Do you understand you and others are objecting to my expression of free speech?
Now explain how its different for when you disagree or object to what someone says....this should be interesting.
Oh, and you will not find a quote of mine that even hints at telling someone not to share their opinion. Disagreeing or objecting or finding offense with the use of the Mexican flag in a specific circumstance is not telling them to not to share their opinion, its telling them its disrespectful and offensive.
EDIT:
Hint: most intelligent people who read this sub-forum and my comments are probably aware at this point that I lean libertarian and oppose most restrictions placed on people by government. It's actually comical you think I want to restrict speech. I often times take unpopular opinions, but I've never been accused of wanting to stop someone from expressing speech.
Oh, and you will not find a quote of mine that even hints at telling someone not to share their opinion. Disagreeing or objecting or finding offense with the use of the Mexican flag in a specific circumstance is not telling them to not to share their opinion, its telling them its disrespectful and offensive.
More question dodging. Don't make wild claims that someone has violated your freedom of speech please.
Oh, and you will not find a quote of mine that even hints at telling someone not to share their opinion. Disagreeing or objecting or finding offense with the use of the Mexican flag in a specific circumstance is not telling them to not to share their opinion, its telling them its disrespectful and offensive.
More question dodging. Don't make wild claims that someone has violated your freedom of speech please.
Hint: you did not ask a question while avoiding my question. It's funny you have no idea I was using your premise to ask a question to make a point about the absurdity of your claim that I somehow want to limit speech.
Now please answer my question.
(I've caught you in a goal post shift and a straw man)
Hint: you did not ask a question while avoiding my question. It's funny you have no idea I was using your premise to ask a question to make a point about the absurdity of your claim that I somehow want to limit speech.
Now please answer my question.
(I've caught you in a goal post shift and a straw man)
I have shifted no goalpost nor have I used a straw man don't hide behind claims of logical fallacies please. You never clarified why it is disrespectful for someone to protest with another nation's flag. No more talking around it, no more dodging, if you have a point to make then make it please. This is the debate forum after all.
I have shifted no goalpost nor have I used a straw man don't hide behind claims of logical fallacies please.
You argued that I want to limit speech. Please demonstrate where I've indicated this, otherwise it's a straw man. You argue that simply objecting to speech is objecting to the expression of free speech, when pressed, you implicitly changed your definition to one of restricting free speech, to which I've never advocated for.
You never clarified why it is disrespectful for someone to protest with another nation's flag.
Please check post #50. On the bottom of that post, I've provided a comprehensive list of post I've made in this thread explaining why I find the use of the flag offensive and disrespectful.
No more talking around it, no more dodging, if you have a point to make then make it please. This is the debate forum after all.
Check post #50 please. I've elaborated extensively. You can continue to ignore everything I've written and the questions I ask, and create straw man arguments, but I'm afraid it still will not get past the fact I've answered the question already.
When you retroactively edit in a list of things on a previous page it hasn't been ignored it just wasn't there when viewing happened. All of your objections stem from the basis of not wanting others to express themselves as they choose to. To which I ask why do you care so much? It is their right to protest however they see fit and not really your concern how they express their right to protest and right to freedom of speech.
When you retroactively edit in a list of things on a previous page it hasn't been ignored it just wasn't there when viewing happened.
Here is the thing Dox, every single one of those post were made previously in this thread, that post was just a compilation. I find it hard to believe you overlooked every single one.
All of your objections stem from the basis of not wanting others to express themselves as they choose to.
No, they are not. All of those post are expressing my dissatisfaction with their choice to use another nations flag in protest of US political figures. They can do what ever they want.
To which I ask why do you care so much?
You are still asking the same question? Check post #50.
It is their right to protest however they see fit and not really your concern how they express their right to protest and right to freedom of speech.
That's pretty dangerous standard, not to speak up when you disagree with something someone says or does. I guess it's not really my concern what Trump says about Mexicans, is it? Disagreeing or finding displeasure with someone has nothing to do with the infringing upon a persons 1st amendment rights.
EDITED For clarity: Your abhorrent equivalence of my displeasure at the use of the Mexican flag in protest of US political figures with the 1st Amendment is rather preposterous.
ust to prove that I've provided extensive basis for my objections
Have you now? Let's see.
The Mexican National flag has no relevance to who we elect as president. To use this in protest, would imply that it does, irrelevant of the intentions of the flag waver.
It does have relevance to the presidential election because of Donald Trump.
With that said, there are American cultural norms. I already respect Mexican culture, but it seems too much to ask for them to respect that they are a part of the US now and the Mexican flag has no place in our domestic political process. When Donald Trump insults Mexican Immigrants, he not insulting Mexicans, he is insulting Americans. It's irrelevant they are Mexicans. By the same token, when you participate in the political process, it's irrelevant that you are Mexican. You should not be voting or supporting a candidate that serves Mexicans well, you should be voting for a candidate that treats everyone well.
Everyone includes Mexicans, so whether a candidate treats specifically Mexicans well is necessarily relevant by your own criteria.
Which is why the Mexican flag is out of place. The Mexican flag in the US is not largely identified as a symbol for freedom and justice.
It does not need to be.
Again, I get what you are saying, they are not intentionally trying to offend people so that makes it okay to be disrespectful and not considerate of those around them who might take it the wrong way. I think its much more important to respect the country you live in when you are protesting. There are plenty of positive ways to demonstrate your heritage. I do not think this is one of them.
This is just saying that you find it disrespectful, not why.
I find it hard to support an action that flies a flag of country inside of another country that you are trying to reinforce both your dignity and human rights in, not to mention the flag represents a country that is orders of magnitude less diverse than the US.
The first part doesn't provide a reason why it's disrespectful other than 'it's a non-american flag' which isn't really much of a reason.
On the second part, what you are saying is 'flying a flag from a country that I think is kinda bad is offensive' right? That sounds like a very bad reason to be offended.
A flag has many meanings, other than the one intended by the user. The flag represents a country. The person flying the flag is or wants to be part of the United States, yet protest people within the US political system with a Mexican flag, to show how Mexican they are. In the US, your human rights are not based on your "heritage" or "ethnicity".
This does not explain why it is offensive.
You want to be treated like an Ameerican, start embracing American culture instead of pointing out your Mexican cultue that is far less diverse. The American flag represents all cultures, yet they pick thier home country as thier identity.
The American flag definitely does not represent all cultures.
If the Mexican flag represents only Mexican culture and not all cultures, then the American flag must only represent American culture.
-
So, the extensive basis for you finding the flag offensive boils down to:
-It's not relevant to the politics (it is)
-It's from another country and I think that country is bad (why is that offensive?)
It does have relevance to the presidential election because of Donald Trump.
No, it does not. Most Mexicans do not vote (nor should they vote) and the ones who do vote have American citizenship in some form and they vote becasue they are Americans, not Mexican. It's a completely American liberty.
Everyone includes Mexicans, so whether a candidate treats specifically Mexicans well is necessarily relevant by your own criteria.
From my perspective, once you become an American, you are no longer Mexican. That does not mean I'm oblivious or insensitive to their past, nor do I reject their past, but elections are about their future as Americans, not Mexicans.
It does not need to be.
I think you need to review the context. That was in direct response to a post about injustice, in general.
The first part doesn't provide a reason why it's disrespectful other than 'it's a non-american flag' which isn't really much of a reason.
Because you only interpret the use of the flag one way (as some sort of symbol showing Mexican solidarity), when there are multiple ways it can be perceived. I'm not dismissing, or even criticizing that interpretation, I respect it. However, you do not seem to consider other perspectives or how it could be viewed outside that one narrow perspective. Quite simply, this is America, not Mexico. They are showing their solidarity in protest by flying another countries flag in the United States. To me, even if its not their intent, its an implicit acknowledgement of contempt for our country that you'd choose a non-american symbol to represent yourself at an American political event. An American citizen willingly choosing another countries flag to represent themselves while protesting American politics under the protection of the United States first amendment is offensive to me. Do not get me wrong, I'm glad they are able to do it, but it symbolically shows they care more about being Mexicans than Americans. this may not be their intent, but that is the perception I have.
So, the extensive basis for you finding the flag offensive boils down to:
-It's not relevant to the politics (it is)
-It's from another country and I think that country is bad (why is that offensive?)
I think you argue from a narrow and singular perspective what the symbol repersents, to which their are many perspectives. You reduce my arguments based on this narrow interpretation on how the flag in protest can be perceived.
It does have relevance to the presidential election because of Donald Trump.
No, it does not. Most Mexicans do not vote (nor should they vote) and the ones who do vote have American citizenship in some form and they vote becasue they are Americans, not Mexican. It's a completely American liberty.
Firstly, Donald Trump has made proposals that directly relate to the Mexican government, so it's an issue for Mexicans generally and they don't need to be able to vote to voice their opinion to those who can.
Secondly, to those who can vote, the Mexican flag is an expression that they care about what happens to Mexico.
From my perspective, once you become an American, you are no longer Mexican. That does not mean I'm oblivious or insensitive to their past, nor do I reject their past, but elections are about their future as Americans, not Mexicans.
But they are still Mexicans in a sense and that matters.
And also, they don't even need to be Mexican, showing the Mexican flag can very reasonably be used to show support for Mexico and not Donald Trump policies relating to it.
Because you only interpret the use of the flag one way (as some sort of symbol showing Mexican solidarity), when there are multiple ways it can be perceived. I'm not dismissing, or even criticizing that interpretation, I respect it. However, you do not seem to consider other perspectives or how it could be viewed outside that one narrow perspective. Quite simply, this is America, not Mexico. They are showing their solidarity in protest by flying another countries flag in the United States. To me, even if its not their intent, its an implicit acknowledgement of contempt for our country that you'd choose a non-american symbol to represent yourself at an American political event. An American citizen willingly choosing another countries flag to represent themselves while protesting American politics under the protection of the United States first amendment is offensive to me. Do not get me wrong, I'm glad they are able to do it, but it symbolically shows they care more about being Mexicans than Americans. this may not be their intent, but that is the perception I have.
First of all, the fact that you do get a reaction does not mean anything to this debate. Whether something offensive is not just about whether there are people who are offended by it. You need to do more to justify why your reaction and interpretations are reasonable.
Secondly, someone showing contempt for America should not offend you. You can, and obviously do, disagree with them, but America is not you and even if it were, dislike should not automatically produce offence because someone may have reasonable justification for it.
I also greatly disagree that showing another country's flag during a political event in a country is "an implicit acknowledgement of contempt" and that "it symbolically shows they care more about being Mexicans than Americans" (the fact that you perceive it this way is not enough to say that it is offensive).
I think you argue from a narrow and singular perspective what the symbol repersents, to which their are many perspectives. You reduce my arguments based on this narrow interpretation on how the flag in protest can be perceived.
I think you argue from a position where you take your interpretation of the use of the flag as justified without having well justified it.
I also think your justifications for your offence are likely post-hoc (it's very common after all), but I digress.
Because you only interpret the use of the flag one way (as some sort of symbol showing Mexican solidarity), when there are multiple ways it can be perceived. I'm not dismissing, or even criticizing that interpretation, I respect it. However, you do not seem to consider other perspectives or how it could be viewed outside that one narrow perspective.
You do realize you created this thread because you didn't know why people were waving flags in the first place, right?
So, by your own admission, your opinion is not an educated opinion.
Quite simply, this is America, not Mexico. They are showing their solidarity in protest by flying another countries flag in the United States.
Which is neither illegal nor immoral nor impolite. Again, see the UN building. Plenty of flags flying there.
To me, even if its not their intent, its an implicit acknowledgement of contempt for our country
So even if they're waving flags with no intention of communicating contempt for our country, it's still contempt for our country? How does that make sense?
The point is you misinterpreted what they were trying to express through your ignorance of what they were trying to express. Now you are trying to defend your misinterpretation as valid even when we explained it isn't.
this may not be their intent, but that is the perception I have.
And your perception is incorrect. Indeed, it's incorrect by your own admission, because you yourself acknowledged that you took it wrong. And your perception was an ignorant one, because you made a thread asking why they were doing it because you didn't know.
I think you argue from a narrow and singular perspective what the symbol repersents
No, he's arguing from the correct perspective as to what the flag represents.
And as I said, your offense at the flag is evidently that you don't like Mexico. To which you are free to go ahead and be offended by the existence of Mexico and Mexicans, but no one should actually care.
Some may do this to indicate support for "their people" against exaggerated claims as to their character. It could also be a big middle finger directed at those who would see them deported due to their illegal status. It could be both of those things at once.
It certainly doesn't surprise me that those who are in favor of legal immigration might be offended when the response of certain illegal aliens is to wave their own native flag. Heck, I've been to Paris and found that they were offended that I was using English and that doesn't seem like nearly as big of a deal.
It certainly doesn't surprise me that those who are in favor of legal immigration might be offended when the response of certain illegal aliens is to wave their own native flag.
I think most people are "in favor of legal immigration," Ljoss. The question is one's stance on deporting illegal immigrants.
I'm not objecting to their protesting, their flag or their speech. I'm objecting to the symbolism of a forigen nations flag being used during a domestic political demonstration. That is not objecting to free speech.
EDIT: Review post #50.
Sigh..
I'm objecting to the symbolism of a forigen nations flag being used during a domestic political demonstration because it's disrespectful of the domestic nation. That is not objecting to free speech.
Do you understand you and others are objecting to my expression of free speech?
Now explain how its different for when you disagree or object to what someone says....this should be interesting.
Stop stonewalling. Answer the question.
EDIT:
Hint: most intelligent people who read this sub-forum and my comments are probably aware at this point that I lean libertarian and oppose most restrictions placed on people by government. It's actually comical you think I want to restrict speech. I often times take unpopular opinions, but I've never been accused of wanting to stop someone from expressing speech.
Hint: you did not ask a question while avoiding my question. It's funny you have no idea I was using your premise to ask a question to make a point about the absurdity of your claim that I somehow want to limit speech.
Now please answer my question.
(I've caught you in a goal post shift and a straw man)
You argued that I want to limit speech. Please demonstrate where I've indicated this, otherwise it's a straw man. You argue that simply objecting to speech is objecting to the expression of free speech, when pressed, you implicitly changed your definition to one of restricting free speech, to which I've never advocated for.
Please check post #50. On the bottom of that post, I've provided a comprehensive list of post I've made in this thread explaining why I find the use of the flag offensive and disrespectful.
Check post #50 please. I've elaborated extensively. You can continue to ignore everything I've written and the questions I ask, and create straw man arguments, but I'm afraid it still will not get past the fact I've answered the question already.
Here is the thing Dox, every single one of those post were made previously in this thread, that post was just a compilation. I find it hard to believe you overlooked every single one.
No, they are not. All of those post are expressing my dissatisfaction with their choice to use another nations flag in protest of US political figures. They can do what ever they want.
You are still asking the same question? Check post #50.
That's pretty dangerous standard, not to speak up when you disagree with something someone says or does. I guess it's not really my concern what Trump says about Mexicans, is it? Disagreeing or finding displeasure with someone has nothing to do with the infringing upon a persons 1st amendment rights.
EDITED For clarity: Your abhorrent equivalence of my displeasure at the use of the Mexican flag in protest of US political figures with the 1st Amendment is rather preposterous.
Have you now? Let's see.
It does have relevance to the presidential election because of Donald Trump.
Everyone includes Mexicans, so whether a candidate treats specifically Mexicans well is necessarily relevant by your own criteria.
It does not need to be.
This is just saying that you find it disrespectful, not why.
The first part doesn't provide a reason why it's disrespectful other than 'it's a non-american flag' which isn't really much of a reason.
On the second part, what you are saying is 'flying a flag from a country that I think is kinda bad is offensive' right? That sounds like a very bad reason to be offended.
This does not explain why it is offensive.
The American flag definitely does not represent all cultures.
If the Mexican flag represents only Mexican culture and not all cultures, then the American flag must only represent American culture.
-
So, the extensive basis for you finding the flag offensive boils down to:
-It's not relevant to the politics (it is)
-It's from another country and I think that country is bad (why is that offensive?)
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
No, it does not. Most Mexicans do not vote (nor should they vote) and the ones who do vote have American citizenship in some form and they vote becasue they are Americans, not Mexican. It's a completely American liberty.
From my perspective, once you become an American, you are no longer Mexican. That does not mean I'm oblivious or insensitive to their past, nor do I reject their past, but elections are about their future as Americans, not Mexicans.
I think you need to review the context. That was in direct response to a post about injustice, in general.
Because you only interpret the use of the flag one way (as some sort of symbol showing Mexican solidarity), when there are multiple ways it can be perceived. I'm not dismissing, or even criticizing that interpretation, I respect it. However, you do not seem to consider other perspectives or how it could be viewed outside that one narrow perspective. Quite simply, this is America, not Mexico. They are showing their solidarity in protest by flying another countries flag in the United States. To me, even if its not their intent, its an implicit acknowledgement of contempt for our country that you'd choose a non-american symbol to represent yourself at an American political event. An American citizen willingly choosing another countries flag to represent themselves while protesting American politics under the protection of the United States first amendment is offensive to me. Do not get me wrong, I'm glad they are able to do it, but it symbolically shows they care more about being Mexicans than Americans. this may not be their intent, but that is the perception I have.
I think you argue from a narrow and singular perspective what the symbol repersents, to which their are many perspectives. You reduce my arguments based on this narrow interpretation on how the flag in protest can be perceived.
Firstly, Donald Trump has made proposals that directly relate to the Mexican government, so it's an issue for Mexicans generally and they don't need to be able to vote to voice their opinion to those who can.
Secondly, to those who can vote, the Mexican flag is an expression that they care about what happens to Mexico.
But they are still Mexicans in a sense and that matters.
And also, they don't even need to be Mexican, showing the Mexican flag can very reasonably be used to show support for Mexico and not Donald Trump policies relating to it.
First of all, the fact that you do get a reaction does not mean anything to this debate. Whether something offensive is not just about whether there are people who are offended by it. You need to do more to justify why your reaction and interpretations are reasonable.
Secondly, someone showing contempt for America should not offend you. You can, and obviously do, disagree with them, but America is not you and even if it were, dislike should not automatically produce offence because someone may have reasonable justification for it.
I also greatly disagree that showing another country's flag during a political event in a country is "an implicit acknowledgement of contempt" and that "it symbolically shows they care more about being Mexicans than Americans" (the fact that you perceive it this way is not enough to say that it is offensive).
I think you argue from a position where you take your interpretation of the use of the flag as justified without having well justified it.
I also think your justifications for your offence are likely post-hoc (it's very common after all), but I digress.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
So, by your own admission, your opinion is not an educated opinion.
Which is neither illegal nor immoral nor impolite. Again, see the UN building. Plenty of flags flying there.
So even if they're waving flags with no intention of communicating contempt for our country, it's still contempt for our country? How does that make sense?
The point is you misinterpreted what they were trying to express through your ignorance of what they were trying to express. Now you are trying to defend your misinterpretation as valid even when we explained it isn't.
And your perception is incorrect. Indeed, it's incorrect by your own admission, because you yourself acknowledged that you took it wrong. And your perception was an ignorant one, because you made a thread asking why they were doing it because you didn't know.
No, he's arguing from the correct perspective as to what the flag represents.
And as I said, your offense at the flag is evidently that you don't like Mexico. To which you are free to go ahead and be offended by the existence of Mexico and Mexicans, but no one should actually care.
It certainly doesn't surprise me that those who are in favor of legal immigration might be offended when the response of certain illegal aliens is to wave their own native flag. Heck, I've been to Paris and found that they were offended that I was using English and that doesn't seem like nearly as big of a deal.