But does their identity hinge on a trip to the restroom?
The real issue isn't their own identity, or even the state of the law. The real issue is that when trans people go into a public bathroom for either gender, they often catch flak (and sometimes far worse) for not being that gender. If the public would stop doing that to them, then we could start talking about how much their identity really matters with respect to the pragmatic question of where they deposit their human waste. But for now, the personal identity question is rather dwarfed by the public acceptance question. And while having an openly discriminatory law is certainly very, very bad for public acceptance, it's really just a symptom, not a cause.
(On the other hand, responding to harassment with "I don't want to be in here, but your dumbass law says I have to be" might shut some people up.)
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Headline of the week: Cops force lesbian to leave ladies’ toilet after refusing to believe she’s a woman
Claire Wilson wrote: “Absolutely disgraceful. It's bad enough that a woman is ejected from a women's restroom because she's not wearing ‘women's clothes’.
“But isn't it a bit ridiculous that they sent men in there to get her? Doesn't sending two men in just exacerbate the discomfort of the idiot that reported her?”
^That's ridiculous. She isn't wearing women's clothes. I'd file a suit were I the lesbians involved.
@Blinking Spirit - thank you for your response. I've never seen that, so I had no idea you had the opposite sexes already going into the other's restroom. There's a simpler solution - if they catch flak for it, then they need to stop doing it and start reporting anyone that brings bodily harm against them.
edit: but what about those bathrooms that are already neutral. the ones that show the man, lady, and wheelchair on the little sign card on the door? Seems like it is more of a nonissue since you already have those around.
There's a simpler solution - if they catch flak for it, then they need to stop doing it and start reporting anyone that brings bodily harm against them.
They can't "stop doing it". The production of solid and liquid waste is an involuntary biological process.
edit: but what about those bathrooms that are already neutral. the ones that show the man, lady, and wheelchair on the little sign card on the door? Seems like it is more of a nonissue since you already have those around.
They're pretty rare. As an experiment, why don't you try to spend, say, a week using only those restrooms when you go out in public? See how long you last.
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There's a simpler solution - if they catch flak for it, then they need to stop doing it and start reporting anyone that brings bodily harm against them.
They can't "stop doing it". The production of solid and liquid waste is an involuntary biological process.
edit: but what about those bathrooms that are already neutral. the ones that show the man, lady, and wheelchair on the little sign card on the door? Seems like it is more of a nonissue since you already have those around.
They're pretty rare. As an experiment, why don't you try to spend, say, a week using only those restrooms when you go out in public? See how long you last.
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Target decided to allow people to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity. Good work, Target!
In response, the American Family Association is sending men into women's bathrooms at Target so as to stir up hate against trans people, because that's a productive use of people's time. [link]
“I think there’s no question that when you say that there are no barriers in the bathroom,” Rios said, “and that if men or women feel like they are men or women, the opposition of however they are equipped, and you have no restrictions, the net effect will be that people will not be stopped. We’ve already had people testing this, going into Targets and men trying to go into bathrooms. There is absolutely no barrier.”
“And so the chief concern,” she continued, “even more than just, I think, trauma, certainly for little girls of having men dressed like women coming in their bathrooms, the chief concern of the American Family Association is the predators who will take advantage.”
As a note for people who've not been paying attention, most sexual predation is still done by cis people and very little of that is done in public bathrooms, but why should facts get in the way of discrimination against the vulnerable? It's what Jesus would have wanted*.
*wince* Let's be clear: this is because most people are cis people.
Yeah, and by a huge margin too. I mentioned that back on page two.
However, people committing sexual assault do tend to go for people who are vulnerable. According to the Human Rights Campaign, Transgender people are at a significantly higher risk of sexual assault than the general population. Transgender people also tend to avoid law enforcement more than the general population: part of that is because they've a greater risk of being physically or sexually assaulted by cops than average. [link]
More gender neutral bathrooms would definitely be a plus. A lot of clubs have them already, probably a way to safe money but still it works. Yes, it's not a public space but still an example.
The term "cis" is a terminology I would love to get lost though.
More gender neutral bathrooms would definitely be a plus. A lot of clubs have them already, probably a way to safe money but still it works. Yes, it's not a public space but still an example.
The term "cis" is a terminology I would love to get lost though.
Why? It's useful technical terminology.
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
"Cis" is literally the opposite of "trans", they're Latin prefixes ("on this side of" and "on the other side of"). If some people are considered "trans", others get to be considered "cis".
Not really that useful. Trans(gender) is a useful technical terminology that adds information if that information is in anyway required, but apart from that it's more of an addendum. There is not that much point to add "cis" to a person if their gender fits their phenotype, especially not if forced onto people. I do not want to be considered "cis". I am born a man, I am a man, and that's it. There is no reason to add "cis" to that. If I would be trans, I would say so. No one should feel insulted if I call myself man without using the word "cis". Yes I do feel slightly perturbed if that term is forced onto me for no apparent reason.
It's like calling a woman always "non-pregnant" if she is not pregnant cause there are pregnant women too, or any other group defining traits. There is nothing wrong to it to just say man/woman and add trans to it if it applies.
*wince* Let's be clear: this is because most people are cis people.
Yeah, and by a huge margin too. I mentioned that back on page two.
However, people committing sexual assault do tend to go for people who are vulnerable. According to the Human Rights Campaign, Transgender people are at a significantly higher risk of sexual assault than the general population. Transgender people also tend to avoid law enforcement more than the general population: part of that is because they've a greater risk of being physically or sexually assaulted by cops than average. [link]
Sure. I just don't want anybody coming away from this discussion thinking it's been claimed that cis people are statistically more evil.
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@Gusto I see it more like if when describing Black People and White People if you always referred to them as Black People and People, that'd be weird.
I'll consider my language, but I'm probably not changing it.
*wince* Let's be clear: this is because most people are cis people.
Yeah, and by a huge margin too. I mentioned that back on page two.
However, people committing sexual assault do tend to go for people who are vulnerable. According to the Human Rights Campaign, Transgender people are at a significantly higher risk of sexual assault than the general population. Transgender people also tend to avoid law enforcement more than the general population: part of that is because they've a greater risk of being physically or sexually assaulted by cops than average. [link]
Sure. I just don't want anybody coming away from this discussion thinking it's been claimed that cis people are statistically more evil.
Mayne people are gonna claim that about my posts anyway, I've got a "terminal case of the SJWs".
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
Sorry for my ignorance, but how do you determine if a person is trans or not? No one is bring their birth certificate with them at all times. This law feels like Trumps' proposed law to ban all muslims: How can the law enforcers find out about one's religion and other identities when it is not apparent?
Sorry for my ignorance, but how do you determine if a person is trans or not? No one is bring their birth certificate with them at all times. This law feels like Trumps' proposed law to ban all muslims: How can the law enforcers find out about one's religion and other identities when it is not apparent?
Let them tell you. If they choose not to tell you, it's none of your business.
@Gusto I see it more like if when describing Black People and White People if you always referred to them as Black People and People, that'd be weird.
I'll consider my language, but I'm probably not changing it.
I think it has something to do with the "cis" label being imposed upon them. Minorities get labeled against their will by the majority all the time, but this is an unusual reversal. Historically there hasn't been a word for cis people because they're just such a huge majority, and then the trans community comes along and slaps this label on them. Feels bad for the same reasons getting labeled always feels bad.
Or look at at this way. I believe there are -- to within the same ballpark estimate -- about as many trans people as there are achondroplastic dwarfs. Wouldn't it be kind of weird if "giant", as the opposite of "dwarf", suddenly became a regular part of everyday discourse to identify people as being among the 99.99% (number not exaggerated) of the population that is of average height? Does it make sense to have a label for every medical condition you don't have?
(Also, "cis" sounds like "sissy".)
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Sorry for my ignorance, but how do you determine if a person is trans or not? No one is bring their birth certificate with them at all times. This law feels like Trumps' proposed law to ban all muslims: How can the law enforcers find out about one's religion and other identities when it is not apparent?
Let them tell you. If they choose not to tell you, it's none of your business.
Then, aren't these laws impossible to enforce? I would never tell policemen about my gender and religious identity when I know that what I say will be used against me.
Sorry for my ignorance, but how do you determine if a person is trans or not? No one is bring their birth certificate with them at all times. This law feels like Trumps' proposed law to ban all muslims: How can the law enforcers find out about one's religion and other identities when it is not apparent?
Let them tell you. If they choose not to tell you, it's none of your business.
Then, aren't these laws impossible to enforce? I would never tell policemen about my gender and religious identity when I know that what I say will be used against me.
They are impossible to enforce. That is like the third reason why these laws are ridiculous.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I mean, since these laws does nothing to achieve its intended goal, they should just get rid of it. The UK is getting rid of pointless laws and America should follow suit because some of these laws does not make any sense.
@Gusto I see it more like if when describing Black People and White People if you always referred to them as Black People and People, that'd be weird.
I'll consider my language, but I'm probably not changing it.
Wouldn't it be kind of weird if "giant", as the opposite of "dwarf", suddenly became a regular part of everyday discourse to identify people as being among the 99.99% (number not exaggerated) of the population that is of average height?
When we're discussing laws which have been deliberately crafted to mess with trans people, I'm gonna use trans and cis as descriptors. That's what I meant by the "when describing" part.
Honestly the fact that people are coming into the only topic on the board where phrases like cis-people are being used to complain about their use amuses me. It's like the standard NeoGaf thing of saying how they don't want to discuss female characters in the thrice-annual* Sarkeesian topic. Just read literally any other thread.
*idk how often she releases stuff
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
But does their identity hinge on a trip to the restroom?
The real issue isn't their own identity, or even the state of the law. The real issue is that when trans people go into a public bathroom for either gender, they often catch flak (and sometimes far worse) for not being that gender. If the public would stop doing that to them, then we could start talking about how much their identity really matters with respect to the pragmatic question of where they deposit their human waste. But for now, the personal identity question is rather dwarfed by the public acceptance question. And while having an openly discriminatory law is certainly very, very bad for public acceptance, it's really just a symptom, not a cause.
(On the other hand, responding to harassment with "I don't want to be in here, but your dumbass law says I have to be" might shut some people up.)
I do not think the government should regulate where people go to the bathroom. I find it hard to believe many transgenders are harassed in bathrooms. I've been exposed to transgender folks for awhile now, and absent some study that says there is some huge issue with transgenders being denied access to public restrooms, it's hard for me to believe many folks would question the gender of another human being, especially if the person questioning is male. It's an incredibly awkward for most people to even think of doing this. That does not mean the person is not going to get looked at funny, but I know quite a few people who get looked at funny and they are not all transsexuals. Being peculiar gets looks. I do not doubt bigotry occurs (I'm skeptical to the extent), but I also do not doubt that males and females are also harassed in bathrooms. It's unfortunate people are mean to one and another, but this is not special to transgender folks.
(On the other hand, responding to harassment with "I don't want to be in here, but your dumbass law says I have to be" might shut some people up.)
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
[link]
Kevin Siers has your back.
Art is life itself.
@Blinking Spirit - thank you for your response. I've never seen that, so I had no idea you had the opposite sexes already going into the other's restroom. There's a simpler solution - if they catch flak for it, then they need to stop doing it and start reporting anyone that brings bodily harm against them.
edit: but what about those bathrooms that are already neutral. the ones that show the man, lady, and wheelchair on the little sign card on the door? Seems like it is more of a nonissue since you already have those around.
They're pretty rare. As an experiment, why don't you try to spend, say, a week using only those restrooms when you go out in public? See how long you last.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
They're pretty rare. As an experiment, why don't you try to spend, say, a week using only those restrooms when you go out in public? See how long you last.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
In response, the American Family Association is sending men into women's bathrooms at Target so as to stir up hate against trans people, because that's a productive use of people's time. [link]
As a note for people who've not been paying attention, most sexual predation is still done by cis people and very little of that is done in public bathrooms, but why should facts get in the way of discrimination against the vulnerable? It's what Jesus would have wanted*.
*This is angry sarcasm.
Art is life itself.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
However, people committing sexual assault do tend to go for people who are vulnerable. According to the Human Rights Campaign, Transgender people are at a significantly higher risk of sexual assault than the general population. Transgender people also tend to avoid law enforcement more than the general population: part of that is because they've a greater risk of being physically or sexually assaulted by cops than average. [link]
Art is life itself.
The term "cis" is a terminology I would love to get lost though.
Art is life itself.
It's like wanting to get rid of "hetero".
It's like calling a woman always "non-pregnant" if she is not pregnant cause there are pregnant women too, or any other group defining traits. There is nothing wrong to it to just say man/woman and add trans to it if it applies.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I'll consider my language, but I'm probably not changing it.
Mayne people are gonna claim that about my posts anyway, I've got a "terminal case of the SJWs".
Art is life itself.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Or look at at this way. I believe there are -- to within the same ballpark estimate -- about as many trans people as there are achondroplastic dwarfs. Wouldn't it be kind of weird if "giant", as the opposite of "dwarf", suddenly became a regular part of everyday discourse to identify people as being among the 99.99% (number not exaggerated) of the population that is of average height? Does it make sense to have a label for every medical condition you don't have?
(Also, "cis" sounds like "sissy".)
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Then, aren't these laws impossible to enforce? I would never tell policemen about my gender and religious identity when I know that what I say will be used against me.
More what the law stands for (violation of the rights of trans people) then for what is actually does.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Source
Honestly the fact that people are coming into the only topic on the board where phrases like cis-people are being used to complain about their use amuses me. It's like the standard NeoGaf thing of saying how they don't want to discuss female characters in the thrice-annual* Sarkeesian topic. Just read literally any other thread.
*idk how often she releases stuff
Art is life itself.
I do not think the government should regulate where people go to the bathroom. I find it hard to believe many transgenders are harassed in bathrooms. I've been exposed to transgender folks for awhile now, and absent some study that says there is some huge issue with transgenders being denied access to public restrooms, it's hard for me to believe many folks would question the gender of another human being, especially if the person questioning is male. It's an incredibly awkward for most people to even think of doing this. That does not mean the person is not going to get looked at funny, but I know quite a few people who get looked at funny and they are not all transsexuals. Being peculiar gets looks. I do not doubt bigotry occurs (I'm skeptical to the extent), but I also do not doubt that males and females are also harassed in bathrooms. It's unfortunate people are mean to one and another, but this is not special to transgender folks.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.