There is no such thing as going against evolution. The path of evolution is determined entirely by unthinking forces or the actions of organisms. Whatever actions humans take, as a species, is the course of our evolution- there is no predetermined course we can act against, we are the course. It's a common misconception that 'artificial selection' (i.e. breeding) is not evolution, it actually is, what it isn't is 'natural selection'. These are just descriptors of the selective pressures acting to direct evolutionary change.
If vaccines reduce the death of individuals, those individuals are consequently 'fitter'- they have a higher successful reproduction rate because they live longer. You cannot make a species 'less fit' by reducing the death of otherwise vulnerable members of the species- this is making them fitter.
There is no 'you'. The surviving population is more resistant sure (maybe, which I'll talk about in the next response)), but we get that same effect with vaccines.
2) If they don't kill and we survive, they will help us evolutionary because the ones that survived will have the stronger immune system.
That's categorically incorrect. Surviving a disease isn't a guarantee of a stronger immune system for that person, or that they have a genetic resistance to pass on. In many cases age is a major factor, which isn't exactly and evolutionary trait to pass on.
I actually do this for a living. You're not going to out argue me on public health matters.
But let me humor you for a second and say that those numbers are correct (they aren't). The 100 deaths is still better than the effect measles has in the US. And the ONLY REASON measles doesn't kill with regularity anymore is BECAUSE of the vaccine.
Let's stop the argument with vaccines. I will concede, that they do help people. People will always have vaccines and use them, respect my choice not to use them.
I am interested in the other points some people have brought up.
Namely the English stopping food to Ireland in the famine. This is a result of government action!
The government has many deaths under its name, innocent included. Is it moral to continue to support them? Or to continue to BELIEVE in them?!
This could be compared to the God in the bible. He has over 1 million murders, and Satan only ~10, yet people still think god is the 'good' guy.
Let's stop the argument with vaccines. I will concede, that they do help people. People will always have vaccines and use them, respect my choice not to use them.
I would typically agree but in this case you are actually hurting people by advocating against vaccination. Heard immunity is a very real thing and people choosing not to vaccinate truly does damage the population as a whole.
Namely the English stopping food to Ireland in the famine. This is a result of government action!
The government has many deaths under its name, innocent included. Is it moral to continue to support them? Or to continue to BELIEVE in them?!
Is this a thing you were aware of or are you just taking me at my word? Its not a very commonly discussed thing historically speaking (the barring of food aid specifically, everyone should be aware of the potato famine.) Asking because earlier you wanted proof that most Native Americans died of disease and you challenged it because it went against your point?
The fact of the matter is very simply put, everyone knows that governments have made wrong decisions in the past and some have committed terrible atrocities but it is an undisputed fact that humanity is better as a whole for having governments, and by arguing against them(not just you anyone really) you just sound like a rebel for the sake of rebellion.
Select for whatever trait you want, there'll be unforeseen consequences.
One of those consequences is probably the environment changes and suddenly your perfect organisms can't deal with the climate shift.
Nobody will be perfect. The stronger ones will have a better chance of adapting to climate shift.
Unless you screw up your guess and the abilities you selected for aren't the ones needed to survive whatever happens.
Which was one of my points.
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
Let's stop the argument with vaccines. I will concede, that they do help people. People will always have vaccines and use them, respect my choice not to use them.
I would typically agree but in this case you are actually hurting people by advocating against vaccination. Heard immunity is a very real thing and people choosing not to vaccinate truly does damage the population as a whole.
How so? If you are vaccinated you will not get the disease and I will. Unless your vaccinations don't work LOL!!!!
Namely the English stopping food to Ireland in the famine. This is a result of government action!
The government has many deaths under its name, innocent included. Is it moral to continue to support them? Or to continue to BELIEVE in them?!
Is this a thing you were aware of or are you just taking me at my word? Its not a very commonly discussed thing historically speaking (the barring of food aid specifically, everyone should be aware of the potato famine.) Asking because earlier you wanted proof that most Native Americans died of disease and you challenged it because it went against your point?
The fact of the matter is very simply put, everyone knows that governments have made wrong decisions in the past and some have committed terrible atrocities but it is an undisputed fact that humanity is better as a whole for having governments, and by arguing against them(not just you anyone really) you just sound like a rebel for the sake of rebellion.
I took your word at first because it sounded reasonable. Was it against my point? People die from diseases I don't think I was arguing against that. I challenged it because I think that governments killed some of the population too.
I'm rebelling for the sake of Freedom, but you socialists wouldn't understand that.
"undisputed fact that humanity is better as a whole for having governments"
Well I am disputing it, and it is not a fact. This is the same argument Christians say; we need the god in the bible because humanity is better for it.
How many people have Australians killed? Who could possibly believe that Australians are any good?
So instead of answering my questions, you have come out with another spam question.
But Yes, Australians have killed a LOT of people, (I don't know the number but million+ as a guess including innocent children). I do not believe Australians are any good. And I do not pay any tax to them, so none of my money is going towards the killing of innocent children. Do you pay tax to America? Your money would have killed some innocent children! are you ok with that?
I'm rebelling for the sake of Freedom, but you socialists wouldn't understand that.
Yeeeees, 'we socialists' are just simple minded.
Are you done with the ad hominem attacks yet? The attitude you have displayed towards other opposing opinions strikes me as a little close minded.
Yeeeees, 'we socialists' are just simple minded.
Are you done with the ad hominem attacks yet? The attitude you have displayed towards other opposing opinions strikes me as a little close minded.
You were the one with the ad hominem attack calling yourself simple minded. I was responding to a point that was closed minded, rebellion for the sake of rebellion, which is not my stance.
Yeeeees, 'we socialists' are just simple minded.
Are you done with the ad hominem attacks yet? The attitude you have displayed towards other opposing opinions strikes me as a little close minded.
You were the one with the ad hominem attack calling yourself simple minded.
Saying 'you socialists wouldn't understand that' IS basically equivalent to calling people simple minded, and also is using 'socialist' in a somewhat derogatory way. It was an ad hominem. Not an ad hominem fallacy in this case, but an ad hominem as poor etiquette (and consequently, poor argumentation- coming of as a dick doesn't do good things for convincing people).
I was responding to a point that was closed minded, rebellion for the sake of rebellion, which is not my stance.
How one thinks about one's position is not the only component to one's position. Just because you say you think X because Y doesn't mean there isn't some Z that is the real motivator behind X (off-topic sidenote: this is very important to understanding societal morality). The suggestion in the original comment seems to be this- what is really motivating you, not what you intellectually ascribe as the reason.
Do you pay taxes to Australia? (If yes) Do you know that your money is being spent on war machines that have killed innocent children? Are you ok with this?
Do you pay taxes to Australia? (If yes) Do you know that your money is being spent on war machines that have killed innocent children? Are you ok with this?
What happens with my money is the government's decision, I bear no responsibility for their mistakes.
The system being problematic and imperfect does not mean that the system must be deeply fundamentally flawed.
Do you pay taxes to Australia? (If yes) Do you know that your money is being spent on war machines that have killed innocent children? Are you ok with this?
What happens with my money is the government's decision, I bear no responsibility for their mistakes.
The system being problematic and imperfect does not mean that the system must be deeply fundamentally flawed.
So you vote for them and pay them, but don't want responsibility. I think that is one of the fundamental flaws! But if that is how you sleep at night from your money killing innocent children, keep telling yourself that.
Do you pay taxes to Australia? (If yes) Do you know that your money is being spent on war machines that have killed innocent children? Are you ok with this?
What happens with my money is the government's decision, I bear no responsibility for their mistakes.
The system being problematic and imperfect does not mean that the system must be deeply fundamentally flawed.
So you vote for them and pay them, but don't want responsibility.
I don't have enough control for me to be responsible. It's like saying that the failures of a person late in their life is the responsibility of the parents- parents can only do so much. Likewise, I can only do so much to ensure my government does things I agree with, but on the whole, I can appreciate that it is better this way than most others.
But if that is how you sleep at night from your money killing innocent children, keep telling yourself that.
Do you pay tax to the Australian Government? I presume yes, you are not a tax evader. So then, by your logic, you are responsible as well. What difference does responsibility make here then? Neither of us agree with all decisions of the government, and neither of us wouldn't do something to change things. The only difference is you extend this to the whole of government, but that has no bearing to the case you are discussing which is both specific and avoidable, making it a poor way to demonstrate fundamental flaw, and something for which you have done nothing to show would be any less of a concern in the world if things were your way.
Your argument here needs to demonstrate both that government is flawed fundamentally and that the alternative of no government is less so flawed.
Do you pay tax to the Australian Government? I presume yes, you are not a tax evader.
Actually, judging by some of his comments, I think he either is evading his taxes, someone else is paying his taxes for him, or he doesn't realize that he's paying his taxes.
Do you pay tax to the Australian Government? I presume yes, you are not a tax evader.
Actually, judging by some of his comments, I think he either is evading his taxes, someone else is paying his taxes for him, or he doesn't realize that he's paying his taxes.
How can one not realize they are paying tax? That seems challenging.
Do you pay tax to the Australian Government? I presume yes, you are not a tax evader.
Actually, judging by some of his comments, I think he either is evading his taxes, someone else is paying his taxes for him, or he doesn't realize that he's paying his taxes.
How can one not realize they are paying tax? That seems challenging.
The mind of Typho0n is a strange place. I don't pretend to understand it.
There is no such thing as going against evolution. The path of evolution is determined entirely by unthinking forces or the actions of organisms. Whatever actions humans take, as a species, is the course of our evolution- there is no predetermined course we can act against, we are the course. It's a common misconception that 'artificial selection' (i.e. breeding) is not evolution, it actually is, what it isn't is 'natural selection'. These are just descriptors of the selective pressures acting to direct evolutionary change.
If vaccines reduce the death of individuals, those individuals are consequently 'fitter'- they have a higher successful reproduction rate because they live longer. You cannot make a species 'less fit' by reducing the death of otherwise vulnerable members of the species- this is making them fitter.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
That's categorically incorrect. Surviving a disease isn't a guarantee of a stronger immune system for that person, or that they have a genetic resistance to pass on. In many cases age is a major factor, which isn't exactly and evolutionary trait to pass on.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/mmrdeaths.asp
I actually do this for a living. You're not going to out argue me on public health matters.
But let me humor you for a second and say that those numbers are correct (they aren't). The 100 deaths is still better than the effect measles has in the US. And the ONLY REASON measles doesn't kill with regularity anymore is BECAUSE of the vaccine.
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I am interested in the other points some people have brought up.
Namely the English stopping food to Ireland in the famine. This is a result of government action!
The government has many deaths under its name, innocent included. Is it moral to continue to support them? Or to continue to BELIEVE in them?!
This could be compared to the God in the bible. He has over 1 million murders, and Satan only ~10, yet people still think god is the 'good' guy.
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
I would typically agree but in this case you are actually hurting people by advocating against vaccination. Heard immunity is a very real thing and people choosing not to vaccinate truly does damage the population as a whole.
Is this a thing you were aware of or are you just taking me at my word? Its not a very commonly discussed thing historically speaking (the barring of food aid specifically, everyone should be aware of the potato famine.) Asking because earlier you wanted proof that most Native Americans died of disease and you challenged it because it went against your point?
The fact of the matter is very simply put, everyone knows that governments have made wrong decisions in the past and some have committed terrible atrocities but it is an undisputed fact that humanity is better as a whole for having governments, and by arguing against them(not just you anyone really) you just sound like a rebel for the sake of rebellion.
Which was one of my points.
Art is life itself.
How so? If you are vaccinated you will not get the disease and I will. Unless your vaccinations don't work LOL!!!!
I took your word at first because it sounded reasonable. Was it against my point? People die from diseases I don't think I was arguing against that. I challenged it because I think that governments killed some of the population too.
I'm rebelling for the sake of Freedom, but you socialists wouldn't understand that.
"undisputed fact that humanity is better as a whole for having governments"
Well I am disputing it, and it is not a fact. This is the same argument Christians say; we need the god in the bible because humanity is better for it.
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
Heard immunity. Do some research then come back if you want.
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
Art is life itself.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Is that your point?
Most of the time automobiles killing people is an accident. Government purposely kills.
Can you see the difference here?
P.S. I would prefer to cycle, cause of climate-change, and fitness
And if everyone cycled there would be less automobile deaths.
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
So instead of answering my questions, you have come out with another spam question.
But Yes, Australians have killed a LOT of people, (I don't know the number but million+ as a guess including innocent children). I do not believe Australians are any good. And I do not pay any tax to them, so none of my money is going towards the killing of innocent children. Do you pay tax to America? Your money would have killed some innocent children! are you ok with that?
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
You got me.
Yeeeees, 'we socialists' are just simple minded.
Are you done with the ad hominem attacks yet? The attitude you have displayed towards other opposing opinions strikes me as a little close minded.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
You were the one with the ad hominem attack calling yourself simple minded. I was responding to a point that was closed minded, rebellion for the sake of rebellion, which is not my stance.
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
Saying 'you socialists wouldn't understand that' IS basically equivalent to calling people simple minded, and also is using 'socialist' in a somewhat derogatory way. It was an ad hominem. Not an ad hominem fallacy in this case, but an ad hominem as poor etiquette (and consequently, poor argumentation- coming of as a dick doesn't do good things for convincing people).
How one thinks about one's position is not the only component to one's position. Just because you say you think X because Y doesn't mean there isn't some Z that is the real motivator behind X (off-topic sidenote: this is very important to understanding societal morality). The suggestion in the original comment seems to be this- what is really motivating you, not what you intellectually ascribe as the reason.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Do you pay taxes to Australia? (If yes) Do you know that your money is being spent on war machines that have killed innocent children? Are you ok with this?
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
What happens with my money is the government's decision, I bear no responsibility for their mistakes.
The system being problematic and imperfect does not mean that the system must be deeply fundamentally flawed.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
So you vote for them and pay them, but don't want responsibility. I think that is one of the fundamental flaws! But if that is how you sleep at night from your money killing innocent children, keep telling yourself that.
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I don't have enough control for me to be responsible. It's like saying that the failures of a person late in their life is the responsibility of the parents- parents can only do so much. Likewise, I can only do so much to ensure my government does things I agree with, but on the whole, I can appreciate that it is better this way than most others.
Do you pay tax to the Australian Government? I presume yes, you are not a tax evader. So then, by your logic, you are responsible as well. What difference does responsibility make here then? Neither of us agree with all decisions of the government, and neither of us wouldn't do something to change things. The only difference is you extend this to the whole of government, but that has no bearing to the case you are discussing which is both specific and avoidable, making it a poor way to demonstrate fundamental flaw, and something for which you have done nothing to show would be any less of a concern in the world if things were your way.
Your argument here needs to demonstrate both that government is flawed fundamentally and that the alternative of no government is less so flawed.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
How can one not realize they are paying tax? That seems challenging.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Is this really an appropriate discussion topic?
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