Well yes I think religion was a form of government.
It's trying to control people...
But everything needs controlled to some degree.
Or how do people behave, are we savages at heart, wanting to rip one another to shreds...
Do we need something above us to 'behave'.... What is freedom?
By no means can I answer this fully, but I think we are social at a fundamental and biological level. There is perhaps also an element of mysticism intertwined with being a conscious reflective but ultimately limited being. Add the fact that people are opportunists to one degree or another, you get an interesting cocktail.
Socially oriented supertitions likely come naturally (think ancient ancestor worship that morphs into mythology). There perhaps comes a point where that mysticism has enough sway over people that it becomes advantagous for individuals or leaders to manipulate and pervert it to their advantage.
By no means can I answer this fully, but I think we are social at a fundamental and biological level. There is perhaps also an element of mysticism intertwined with being a conscious reflective but ultimately limited being. Add the fact that people are opportunists to one degree or another, you get an interesting cocktail.
Does social mean government though? Could the internet bring socialism or a one world consciousness?
Social just means that we interrelate with one another naturally. We form bonds and cooperate to survive.
Not following you on the rest.
Yeah sorry that was developing on from the internet could be an A.I. and that would socially bond people, in a way.
(Thats just an idea of mine... lol, I think the bitcoin miners are adding to the processing power and its getting faster than the brain hahahah) possibility maybe, just hypothesizing
I mean what would be the ultimate goal of socialism? to have a one world 'equality'/order? Could that be achieved through the internet?
If you do not believe in a religion, theres nothing the religion can do.
A goverment enforces rules by punishment. If its a dictator they might just shoot you. If it has some kind of law a judge will enforce law on you, no matter if you "believe" in it or not.
More often than not in the past religion was also part of the goverment, so it COULD enforce its rules on the people, no matter if they shared the believe in the religion, and that was a real problem (and kinda still is, as most goverments are still influenced by religion , some muslims are and western style countries are fairly christian influenced, and not only positivly).
Nationalismn on the other hand can have the extreme that make it look like a religion, and it kinda is, if the goverment becomes some form of highest entity that nobody questiones (or should question).
Highest good of a fair goverment is to allow questioning its laws and decisions, nothing should be deemed set in stone.
Finally, the most important difference is that you can change law in a goverment, while religion has some form of rules that cannot be changed, outside of very rare circumstances. Homosexuality for example in lots of religions is punished, some goverments still do, but such law can (and should) be changed to follow very basic human fairness and freedom.
How much do you believe that government can change things?
The key word is believe, or Trust. How much belief is placed in the government?
This is the same flawed argument creationists try to use to argue science is a religion.
Is math a religion? We are VERY sure 2+2=4.
When you broaden definitions this wide, they lose their meaning.
For the formal definition of religion, here's the top result on Dictionary.com:
"1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."
So no. Government is not a religion. And trying to find surface similarities between two big organizations does not make two things the same in any meanginful context.
If you're opperating under a different definition of religion, then you can define the word any way you like. But religion the way most people use it has a little something to do with the supernatural.
@Stairc
"This is the same flawed argument creationists try to use to argue science is a religion."
We can live without government, we cannot live without science. So governments and sciences are not comparable.
"Is math a religion? We are VERY sure 2+2=4."
No, I would say we are 100% 2+2=4.
"So no. Government is not a religion. And trying to find surface similarities between two big organizations does not make two things the same in any meanginful context."
But Religion can be a government! Look at Israel country of the Jews, and other Arab nations. They have very blurred lines between their religion, nationalism and their government.
It is hard for a president in the U.S. to get elected if they are not religious.
"But religion the way most people use it has a little something to do with the supernatural."
I believe Buddhists do not believe in the supernatural, they have changed their views when new science is brought forth.
(But I guess reincarnation is not scientific...). I would say it's a religion when a group of people 'believe' in the same thing.
Definition taken from google: "a particular system of faith and worship." & "a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion."
People can have faith and worship nationalism, and pursue it with great devotion.
I guess governments would be the actual people that control the other people, which is a physical thing. But would you say that nationalism is a religion?
@Highroller
"I know the government can change things. That's a basic fact."
How much do you believe in 'global warming'? How much do you believe in 'climate change'? How do you think the governments are going to change these?
"Placing belief in something does not equate to religion. I can believe that a sports team will win."
I have argued with my friends that following a sports team can almost be classed as a religious behavior. Some joke that AFL is Australians new religion.
I guess it would almost equate to the same strong belief in a sports team, as a belief in a god, as a belief in government. I guess religion is a group of people 'believing'.
"What? No it doesn't."
Pope is similar to President, and down the chain it goes.
"What overlap is there between religion and nationalism?"
Groups of people that Belief
Even in googles definition it says:
"a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
"consumerism is the new religion""
They say consumerism is a religion. And I would agree with that. So I believe this religious label could be extended to governments as well.
@Highroller
"I know the government can change things. That's a basic fact."
How much do you believe in 'global warming'? How much do you believe in 'climate change'? How do you think the governments are going to change these?
"Placing belief in something does not equate to religion. I can believe that a sports team will win."
I have argued with my friends that following a sports team can almost be classed as a religious behavior. Some joke that AFL is Australians new religion.
I guess it would almost equate to the same strong belief in a sports team, as a belief in a god, as a belief in government. I guess religion is a group of people 'believing'.
"What? No it doesn't."
Pope is similar to President, and down the chain it goes.
"What overlap is there between religion and nationalism?"
Groups of people that Belief
I think "religion" in your view is specificly christianity, in which case they are "quite" like a goverment and even have the vatican as a state.
So yes, catholic christianity is indeed quite like a goverment, they make laws and at least in the past (and in some states) have the power to enforce them. They have judges and special laws in some states, they provide some social places like hospitals and kindergarden, schools and what not. So they are very much like a goverment and co-exist with an actual goverment, sometimes work together.
Especially america is based A LOT on christianity , even a more extreme form of it, as the first settlers are just that, extremists in their religion, "too much" for europe, so they searched a new promised land (ironicly america also has a lot of sub-forms that build up diverse sects and cults of religions, which are even more questionable and often just plain fraud to get money).
Religion as a believe, without the instrumental church behind it is more free. As soon as you add the church it literally becomes a form of goverment in some way or another, as it becomes structured, ordered and "enforces" their rules.
How much do you believe in 'global warming'? How much do you believe in 'climate change'?
Seeing as how we can watch that ***** happening, and how we have a reliable method of activity that can be demonstrated in the lab, I'd call it proven.
This feels barely relevant to your topic.
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How much do you believe in 'global warming'? How much do you believe in 'climate change'?
Seeing as how we can watch that ***** happening, and how we have a reliable method of activity that can be demonstrated in the lab, I'd call it proven.
This feels barely relevant to your topic.
They have been happening since the Earth was created. 'Climate change' and 'global warming' are not the same thing either. The globe has also stopped warming for about 18 years now, that is why the new thing is 'climate-change'. And of course its changing, its always been changing... I bring this up because it's a thing that governments tell people is important, then do nothing about. The people are also not doing much about it either.
If it was a real problem, wouldn't governments be investing in solar equipment, (I think Germany is getting there with their solar). They all spend lots of money having a G20 meetings, fly all over the world (causing 'global warming'/'climate change') from the planes. Then try and make up a few targets that don't change anything.
Then the people BELIEVE that the government is doing something by having these meetings and targets, so then they then don't become more sustainable in themselves to help stop 'global warming'/'climate change'. The way we are eating and farming is a pretty big factor in this climate change, it is putting toxic chemicals over our food, killing bees, top soil erosion, all the pollution from the tractors and trucks in transportation. If people wanted to 'stop' climate change and not put a belief in the government will 'save the planet', people would learn to grow their own food get, their own solar, collect their own water. (It is happening in small ways) but this belief in government is stalling it.
Define religion. Everyone is talking on different terms.
There are a few definitions out there:
Wiki- "Religion is a cultural system of behaviors and practices, world views, ethics, and social organisation that relate humanity to an order of existence."
Google-
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
-a particular system of faith and worship.
"the world's great religions"
-a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
"consumerism is the new religion"
Middle English (originally in the sense ‘life under monastic vows’): from Old French, or from Latin religio(n- ) ‘obligation, bond, reverence’, perhaps based on Latin religare ‘to bind’.
A religion does not need to believe in the supernatural.
You know you're quoting Lord Monkton by using that graph? He's been known to make ***** up to sell books (and has been mocked by the head of the UKIP for using fake statistics, which if you know anything about UK politics is funny as ****).
Short summary because it's past midnight and I'll link more relevant research later if I can be arsed:
The global climate hasn't stopped warming, average temps have been trending up for the last few decades, with increases in both air and sea temp.
Normally the climate does change over time, but it does so generally in slow manner, often following predictable cycles. Current behavior of climate doesn't fit those patterns because it's trending up rapidly against expectations. Also: the last time climate changed as fast as it's doing now (back in the Permian) we saw a pretty major global extinction event. Went down in history as "The Great Dying", which funnily enough is the name of my Kiling Floor 2 Clan because we're really bad .
Maximum temperatures are trending up, extreme weather events are becoming more common. These are signs of an atmospheric and oceanic system absorbing more energy. Added to the increase in oceanic carbonic acid and we know it's mainly carbon dioxide causing the trouble.
"But religion the way most people use it has a little something to do with the supernatural."
I believe Buddhists do not believe in the supernatural, they have changed their views when new science is brought forth.
(But I guess reincarnation is not scientific...). I would say it's a religion when a group of people 'believe' in the same thing.
Many Buddhists do not believe in a god, which would make them atheists, but they do believe in the supernatural, such as reincarnation or karma.
The only religion I can think of in which the supernatural doesn't immediately come to mind is Raëlianism. They worship aliens and as I understand it their basic claim is that all the supernatural stuff in the Bible was aliens using advanced technology.
They have been happening since the Earth was created. 'Climate change' and 'global warming' are not the same thing either. The globe has also stopped warming for about 18 years now, that is why the new thing is 'climate-change'. And of course its changing, its always been changing... I bring this up because it's a thing that governments tell people is important, then do nothing about. The people are also not doing much about it either.
If it was a real problem, wouldn't governments be investing in solar equipment, (I think Germany is getting there with their solar). They all spend lots of money having a G20 meetings, fly all over the world (causing 'global warming'/'climate change') from the planes. Then try and make up a few targets that don't change anything.
Then the people BELIEVE that the government is doing something by having these meetings and targets, so then they then don't become more sustainable in themselves to help stop 'global warming'/'climate change'. The way we are eating and farming is a pretty big factor in this climate change, it is putting toxic chemicals over our food, killing bees, top soil erosion, all the pollution from the tractors and trucks in transportation. If people wanted to 'stop' climate change and not put a belief in the government will 'save the planet', people would learn to grow their own food get, their own solar, collect their own water. (It is happening in small ways) but this belief in government is stalling it.
This feels off topic, but the topic was poorly defined to begin with so why not.
Climate change does historically happen, the issue is that it is increasingly obvious that our current climate change trend is due to human activity. Additionally it is happening at a much more rapid pace than previous events. This is why we are seeing the environment suffer so much from it.
Governments are trying to do something about it. Obama mentions supporting research into alternative energy in pretty much every speech he makes. In my part of the country I see more and more solar panels each year and solar has gotten more efficient/viable as time goes on.
But, as it turns out, you can't just change the energy that your country runs on overnight. It's why people still drive gas cars when electric ones exist even though gas was over 5$ per gallon at one point. Also, its simply not feasible or practical for each person to grow their own food in a global economy.People can not just stop driving cars and grow their own food instead, its not a real solution.
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The key word is believe, or Trust. How much belief is placed in the government?
Government has the same hierarchical structure as religion.
What is the difference between religion and nationalism?
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"Is religion a form of government?"
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Well yes I think religion was a form of government.
It's trying to control people...
But everything needs controlled to some degree.
Or how do people behave, are we savages at heart, wanting to rip one another to shreds...
Do we need something above us to 'behave'.... What is freedom?
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7pt Highlander: BW Combo
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Socially oriented supertitions likely come naturally (think ancient ancestor worship that morphs into mythology). There perhaps comes a point where that mysticism has enough sway over people that it becomes advantagous for individuals or leaders to manipulate and pervert it to their advantage.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Does social mean government though? Could the internet bring socialism or a one world consciousness?
Would it be atheist? What would it want to do?
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Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
Not following you on the rest.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Yeah sorry that was developing on from the internet could be an A.I. and that would socially bond people, in a way.
(Thats just an idea of mine... lol, I think the bitcoin miners are adding to the processing power and its getting faster than the brain hahahah) possibility maybe, just hypothesizing
I mean what would be the ultimate goal of socialism? to have a one world 'equality'/order? Could that be achieved through the internet?
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
If you do not believe in a religion, theres nothing the religion can do.
A goverment enforces rules by punishment. If its a dictator they might just shoot you. If it has some kind of law a judge will enforce law on you, no matter if you "believe" in it or not.
More often than not in the past religion was also part of the goverment, so it COULD enforce its rules on the people, no matter if they shared the believe in the religion, and that was a real problem (and kinda still is, as most goverments are still influenced by religion , some muslims are and western style countries are fairly christian influenced, and not only positivly).
Nationalismn on the other hand can have the extreme that make it look like a religion, and it kinda is, if the goverment becomes some form of highest entity that nobody questiones (or should question).
Highest good of a fair goverment is to allow questioning its laws and decisions, nothing should be deemed set in stone.
Finally, the most important difference is that you can change law in a goverment, while religion has some form of rules that cannot be changed, outside of very rare circumstances. Homosexuality for example in lots of religions is punished, some goverments still do, but such law can (and should) be changed to follow very basic human fairness and freedom.
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Is this like a physics principal? Is energy lost in a way to create more(more intensified)... say like a motor is the government.
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This is the same flawed argument creationists try to use to argue science is a religion.
Is math a religion? We are VERY sure 2+2=4.
When you broaden definitions this wide, they lose their meaning.
For the formal definition of religion, here's the top result on Dictionary.com:
"1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."
So no. Government is not a religion. And trying to find surface similarities between two big organizations does not make two things the same in any meanginful context.
If you're opperating under a different definition of religion, then you can define the word any way you like. But religion the way most people use it has a little something to do with the supernatural.
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Placing belief in something does not equate to religion. I can believe that a sports team will win.
What? No it doesn't.
What overlap is there between religion and nationalism?
"This is the same flawed argument creationists try to use to argue science is a religion."
We can live without government, we cannot live without science. So governments and sciences are not comparable.
"Is math a religion? We are VERY sure 2+2=4."
No, I would say we are 100% 2+2=4.
"So no. Government is not a religion. And trying to find surface similarities between two big organizations does not make two things the same in any meanginful context."
But Religion can be a government! Look at Israel country of the Jews, and other Arab nations. They have very blurred lines between their religion, nationalism and their government.
It is hard for a president in the U.S. to get elected if they are not religious.
"But religion the way most people use it has a little something to do with the supernatural."
I believe Buddhists do not believe in the supernatural, they have changed their views when new science is brought forth.
(But I guess reincarnation is not scientific...). I would say it's a religion when a group of people 'believe' in the same thing.
Definition taken from google: "a particular system of faith and worship." & "a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion."
People can have faith and worship nationalism, and pursue it with great devotion.
I guess governments would be the actual people that control the other people, which is a physical thing. But would you say that nationalism is a religion?
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"I know the government can change things. That's a basic fact."
How much do you believe in 'global warming'? How much do you believe in 'climate change'? How do you think the governments are going to change these?
"Placing belief in something does not equate to religion. I can believe that a sports team will win."
I have argued with my friends that following a sports team can almost be classed as a religious behavior. Some joke that AFL is Australians new religion.
I guess it would almost equate to the same strong belief in a sports team, as a belief in a god, as a belief in government. I guess religion is a group of people 'believing'.
"What? No it doesn't."
Pope is similar to President, and down the chain it goes.
"What overlap is there between religion and nationalism?"
Groups of people that Belief
Even in googles definition it says:
"a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
"consumerism is the new religion""
They say consumerism is a religion. And I would agree with that. So I believe this religious label could be extended to governments as well.
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I think "religion" in your view is specificly christianity, in which case they are "quite" like a goverment and even have the vatican as a state.
So yes, catholic christianity is indeed quite like a goverment, they make laws and at least in the past (and in some states) have the power to enforce them. They have judges and special laws in some states, they provide some social places like hospitals and kindergarden, schools and what not. So they are very much like a goverment and co-exist with an actual goverment, sometimes work together.
Especially america is based A LOT on christianity , even a more extreme form of it, as the first settlers are just that, extremists in their religion, "too much" for europe, so they searched a new promised land (ironicly america also has a lot of sub-forms that build up diverse sects and cults of religions, which are even more questionable and often just plain fraud to get money).
Religion as a believe, without the instrumental church behind it is more free. As soon as you add the church it literally becomes a form of goverment in some way or another, as it becomes structured, ordered and "enforces" their rules.
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This feels barely relevant to your topic.
Art is life itself.
So is math 100% a religion?
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No. "Is math a religion?" & No.
100% 2+2=4.
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
They have been happening since the Earth was created. 'Climate change' and 'global warming' are not the same thing either. The globe has also stopped warming for about 18 years now, that is why the new thing is 'climate-change'. And of course its changing, its always been changing... I bring this up because it's a thing that governments tell people is important, then do nothing about. The people are also not doing much about it either.
If it was a real problem, wouldn't governments be investing in solar equipment, (I think Germany is getting there with their solar). They all spend lots of money having a G20 meetings, fly all over the world (causing 'global warming'/'climate change') from the planes. Then try and make up a few targets that don't change anything.
Then the people BELIEVE that the government is doing something by having these meetings and targets, so then they then don't become more sustainable in themselves to help stop 'global warming'/'climate change'. The way we are eating and farming is a pretty big factor in this climate change, it is putting toxic chemicals over our food, killing bees, top soil erosion, all the pollution from the tractors and trucks in transportation. If people wanted to 'stop' climate change and not put a belief in the government will 'save the planet', people would learn to grow their own food get, their own solar, collect their own water. (It is happening in small ways) but this belief in government is stalling it.
There are a few definitions out there:
Wiki- "Religion is a cultural system of behaviors and practices, world views, ethics, and social organisation that relate humanity to an order of existence."
Google-
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
-a particular system of faith and worship.
"the world's great religions"
-a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
"consumerism is the new religion"
Middle English (originally in the sense ‘life under monastic vows’): from Old French, or from Latin religio(n- ) ‘obligation, bond, reverence’, perhaps based on Latin religare ‘to bind’.
A religion does not need to believe in the supernatural.
Legacy: Dark Depths, Pox, Eldrazi Agro
Vintage: Dark Depths, Grey Orge
Pauper: Faerie Ninja
7pt Highlander: BW Combo
EDH: Horobi, (t)Toshiro, (t)Isamaru
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Short summary because it's past midnight and I'll link more relevant research later if I can be arsed:
The global climate hasn't stopped warming, average temps have been trending up for the last few decades, with increases in both air and sea temp.
Normally the climate does change over time, but it does so generally in slow manner, often following predictable cycles. Current behavior of climate doesn't fit those patterns because it's trending up rapidly against expectations. Also: the last time climate changed as fast as it's doing now (back in the Permian) we saw a pretty major global extinction event. Went down in history as "The Great Dying", which funnily enough is the name of my Kiling Floor 2 Clan because we're really bad .
Maximum temperatures are trending up, extreme weather events are becoming more common. These are signs of an atmospheric and oceanic system absorbing more energy. Added to the increase in oceanic carbonic acid and we know it's mainly carbon dioxide causing the trouble.
Sources
http://climate.nasa.gov/system/internal_resources/details/original/647_Global_Temperature_Data_File.txt
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/9/3316.abstract
http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-earth-042711-105521
https://www.skepticalscience.com/Examples-Monckton-contradicting-scientific-sources.html
Art is life itself.
The only religion I can think of in which the supernatural doesn't immediately come to mind is Raëlianism. They worship aliens and as I understand it their basic claim is that all the supernatural stuff in the Bible was aliens using advanced technology.
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This feels off topic, but the topic was poorly defined to begin with so why not.
Climate change does historically happen, the issue is that it is increasingly obvious that our current climate change trend is due to human activity. Additionally it is happening at a much more rapid pace than previous events. This is why we are seeing the environment suffer so much from it.
Governments are trying to do something about it. Obama mentions supporting research into alternative energy in pretty much every speech he makes. In my part of the country I see more and more solar panels each year and solar has gotten more efficient/viable as time goes on.
But, as it turns out, you can't just change the energy that your country runs on overnight. It's why people still drive gas cars when electric ones exist even though gas was over 5$ per gallon at one point. Also, its simply not feasible or practical for each person to grow their own food in a global economy.People can not just stop driving cars and grow their own food instead, its not a real solution.