No, its not. There is precedent for the government seizing funds sent to mexico before, and western union has granted the government high levels of access to its transfer info. Furthermore, even the threat of this action may be enough - remittances are a $20+ billion part of the mexican economy - they would have no choice but to comply.
You may want to reread your article as the case in question is for targeting cartels. To jump to seizing everyday money transfers from many people who also include many legal citizens is not legal nor will it ever happen. It would be an enormous violation of the rights of tens of millions of people.
And you really shouldn't complain about anyone inciting violence while attempting to support Trump. Its a wee bit hypocritical.
You may want to reread your article as the case in question is for targeting cartels. To jump to seizing everyday money transfers from many people who also include many legal citizens is not legal nor will it ever happen. It would be an enormous violation of the rights of tens of millions of people.
You may want to read the blue bit that the article was attached to. It was simply showing that Western Union has and will give the government detailed access to its system, enabling the tracking of individual remittances. If you read trump's statement (I guess I should assume you're never correctly informed about anything), you'd know that he uses an expanded interpretation of section 326 of the patriot act - something that is definitely not illegal, but would have to pass legal muster. Though with Obama's precedent of sweeping executive actions, I doubt this would pose much of a challenge. Finally, he has also stated that this would only apply to transfers by illegals - individuals that don't have any financial rights in the states. Legal citizens would not be impacted in any way, so you're "misinformed" again.
And you really shouldn't complain about anyone inciting violence while attempting to support Trump. Its a wee bit hypocritical.
Following this logic, you shouldn't denounce the KKK since you support BLM. That aside, if you're suggesting equivalence between trump telling someone to "knock the crap" out of a heckler about to throw a tomato at him and BLM calling for genocide and rioting - well, I guess that puts your perspective firmly into the "completely irrational" category.
If Trump tries to expand the patriot act for this purpose, Western Union would immediately sue, get an injunction, and win. This is the sort of plan that is designed to impress delusional supporters, not actually accomplish a goal.
Source, please?
While there are environmental/land use/ect concerns, the worst I've seen from an engineer is that it would be "difficult". Funding is also possible - Trump's remittance ban is brilliant, IMO.
Just google "Trump Wall Problem," and you'll get several expert analyses on the subject. For the sake of propriety, here is this lovely summary: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/trump-wall-mexico-foreign-policy/475581/
The consensus is it would, in theory, with a lot hard work, clever manuvers, and outright stubbornness, be possible. However, it would be hurtful to the economies of both countries, and end up causing more harm for the American people than good.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Just google "Trump Wall Problem," and you'll get several expert analyses on the subject. For the sake of propriety, here is this lovely summary: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/trump-wall-mexico-foreign-policy/475581/
The consensus is it would, in theory, with a lot hard work, clever manuvers, and outright stubbornness, be possible. However, it would be hurtful to the economies of both countries, and end up causing more harm for the American people than good.
I've spent plenty of time googling it, trust me. I've read the article you linked to - unfortunately, it is entirely a discussion on whether or not trump can finance the wall, with no actual analysis of how it would impact the american economy outside of vague allusions to a recession in a single paragraph prefaced with "its hard to predict what would happen." Worse yet, the possible recession took into account tariffs on both china and mexico that Trump has discussed in his campaign, assumed both would happen, and assumed that it would result trade wars with both countries. Now, while an economic recession IS a possibility, there is a lot of if's that are required for that worst-case scenario. In the best-case, it results in a massive economic benefit to the US and decreased crime from mexico.
Additionally, there is absolutely no discussion of the efficacy of a wall with regard to actually curbing illegal immigration, drug trafficking, and human rights abuses - all of which would absolutely be decreased if the wall were built (though you can argue that the return on investment isn't significant enough if you predict lower numbers).
So, your source is pretty much in line with what I stated - there is merit both in being for and against the wall from an economic standpoint, but the issue is hardly a settled discussion. There is no consensus on the feasibility OR outcome of building the wall, outside of the obvious land use/environmental issues that exist but are not insurmountable. Considering that your source states absolutely nothing with certainty other than "The wall is possible", are you willing to take back your claim that anyone that supports the wall is stupid and guaranteed to damage the US?
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Additionally, there is absolutely no discussion of the efficacy of a wall with regard to actually curbing illegal immigration, drug trafficking, and human rights abuses - all of which would absolutely be decreased if the wall were built (though you can argue that the return on investment isn't significant enough if you predict lower numbers).
Are you aware that most illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central/South America arrive in the country legally? The problem for the majority of illegals is overstaying visas, not ease of access.
Drug trafficking would not be hampered much. We already have significant hindrances to movement over certain parts our southern border (both natural and man-made), and we know that drugs make it through those areas regardless, with some people going as low tech as throwing the drugs over like a football to be picked up by someone already in America (who may be a legal citizen!) As the saying goes, if you build a 30ft wall, you create a market for 31ft ladders.
And even if the wall did stop or significantly reduce human trafficking, which I doubt, it would do nothing to stop human rights abuses in general; the kinds of people who commit such crimes would simply find another outlet for the same. If Pedro can't do it in the US, maybe he can do it in Nicaragua and make just as much money.
Are you aware that most illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central/South America arrive in the country legally? The problem for the majority of illegals is overstaying visas, not ease of access.
Visa overstays account for sub-40% of all illegals currently residing in the states. Furthermore, not all of those overstays are permanent overstays, which suggests that the actual number of permanent illegal residents as a result of overstaying a visa may be even lower than that. And while I don't have stats for the last bit, I'd be willing to bet that FAR more overstays come from non-mexican immigrants. Where are you getting stats from?
Drug trafficking would not be hampered much. We already have significant hindrances to movement over certain parts our southern border (both natural and man-made), and we know that drugs make it through those areas regardless, with some people going as low tech as throwing the drugs over like a football to be picked up by someone already in America (who may be a legal citizen!) As the saying goes, if you build a 30ft wall, you create a market for 31ft ladders.
Anything to back this up? While there are things like tunnels for smuggling, the vast majority truck them in through known POEs. While a wire fence won't do much, a solid, actual wall will dramatically impact the common forms of smuggling. HO
And even if the wall did stop or significantly reduce human trafficking, which I doubt, it would do nothing to stop human rights abuses in general; the kinds of people who commit such crimes would simply find another outlet for the same. If Pedro can't do it in the US, maybe he can do it in Nicaragua and make just as much money.
In that sense, deterring murder in the US is pointless, because killers will find elsewhere to kill. Fact is that most of the people involved in the smuggling business are disgusting rapists. Are you really making the argument that stopping a system full of rampant abuse won't stop the abuse that exists because of that system?
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Additionally, there is absolutely no discussion of the efficacy of a wall with regard to actually curbing illegal immigration, drug trafficking, and human rights abuses - all of which would absolutely be decreased if the wall were built (though you can argue that the return on investment isn't significant enough if you predict lower numbers).
Your citation on this? It probably could curb illegal immigration. Drug trafficking, not so much. Cartels have resources, and the wall would likely just be an inconvenience. Could you please explain exactly where the human rights abuses would be curbed? I genuinely want to know your reasoning as to which sector would be affected.
Thanks for reading the article I presented. It's certainly more than some other people have done in the past. It would appear, however, that this thread has fallen into the old rut of "I'm right, because I say so," and "No, I'm right, because I have the moral high ground." This conversation over the last page has literally gone nowhere. I don't know why I'm bothering anymore.
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[quote from="DokuDokuH »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/debate/624050-donald-trumps-presidency?comment=3625"]
It probably could curb illegal immigration.
Glad we can agree
Drug trafficking, not so much. Cartels have resources, and the wall would likely just be an inconvenience.
See my cite in my last comment - Most drug cartels literally just truck the drugs over unguarded parts of the border, or parts guarded by easily removable fencing. By building a damn fortification, we'd be preventing the most common, cheapest, and easiest route for drugs to enter through the mexican border. While I'm sure that catapults/tunnels/other ***** would still be used, a fully realized wall would significantly impact the ability of cartels to import drugs through our southern border.
Could you please explain exactly where the human rights abuses would be curbed? I genuinely want to know your reasoning as to which sector would be affected.
Pretty sure I mentioned this before you hopped in - but upwards of 80% of female illegals are raped on the way over. Additionally, the southern border is a gateway for human trafficking into the states (One of the big markets for it). By building a wall and stopping Coyotes from operating, we'd be preventing the mass rape of the majority of female mexican illegals, as well as impacting human trafficking in the states.
Thanks for reading the article I presented. It's certainly more than some other people have done in the past. It would appear, however, that this thread has fallen into the old rut of "I'm right, because I say so," and "No, I'm right, because I have the moral high ground." This conversation over the last page has literally gone nowhere. I don't know why I'm bothering anymore.
My issue with your source was that it was almost entirely a discussion of the financial feasibility of the wall. You stated that supporters of the wall we stupid, misinformed, and that the wall would hurt our country. I'm simply taking issue with that fact that your source did not sufficiently discuss any of these claims.
Actually, I'm pretty sure we're mostly in agreement personally - IMO, the wall would be an expensive and difficult project with no empirically measurable benefits and massive political risk. However, I think I've demonstrated that there are arguments to be made for the wall, and the harm or benefit of it is unclear at best. To call people that support it stupid or misinformed is, as far as I'm concerned, rude and incorrect. They have as valid of an argument as you do, and I think its important that you recognize that. The trump campaign has been plagued with blatant mischaracterization of intention and motivation - its just gotten to a point that I'm pissed at people that mischaracterize it. Heck, there is a reason the guy is setting records with traditionally democratic voting blocs.
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My issue with your source was that it was almost entirely a discussion of the financial feasibility of the wall. You stated that supporters of the wall we stupid, misinformed, and that the wall would hurt our country. I'm simply taking issue with that fact that your source did not sufficiently discuss any of these claims.
Actually, I'm pretty sure we're mostly in agreement personally - IMO, the wall would be an expensive and difficult project with no empirically measurable benefits and massive political risk. However, I think I've demonstrated that there are arguments to be made for the wall, and the harm or benefit of it is unclear at best. To call people that support it stupid or misinformed is, as far as I'm concerned, rude and incorrect. They have as valid of an argument as you do, and I think its important that you recognize that. The trump campaign has been plagued with blatant mischaracterization of intention and motivation - its just gotten to a point that I'm pissed at people that mischaracterize it. Heck, there is a reason the guy is setting records with traditionally democratic voting blocs.
We do kind of agree then, if you think the wall would be expensive, impractical, and impossible in today's political environment. You are also correct in saying that the wall has very few direct benefits, if any. The main difference, I think, is that you believe that potential benefits will outweigh the harm, whereas I don't see any net benefits, just relocating them to different places. This it think, is my primary problem with Trump and his supporters in general. He has cultivated the mindset of "America first, screw everyone else." This is something I cannot ever agree with, because America is part of a much larger world. I can't stand having a slightly lower crime rate, if it means people in Mexico and the Middle East are suffering and dying.
P.S. I would address your data about 80% of women getting raped, etc. but we have already gone over these points a dozen times over in this thread. I don't have the energy or willpower to do it again. My apologies.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
We do kind of agree then, if you think the wall would be expensive, impractical, and impossible in today's political environment.
Everything short of the impossible, yeah. I think it CAN be done
This it think, is my primary problem with Trump and his supporters in general. He has cultivated the mindset of "America first, screw everyone else." This is something I cannot ever agree with
See, HERE is where we come to the actual impasse. I'm very much for the 'america first' message - And I can see why you'd think the way you do if you had a more global perspective. I've got a few buddies that have this same disagreement with me, and there's literally no getting around it without discussing deeply philosophical stuff that has no place in the trump thread.
Out of curiosity, are you from the states?
P.S. I would address your data about 80% of women getting raped, etc. but we have already gone over these points a dozen times over in this thread. I don't have the energy or willpower to do it again. My apologies.
No worries, at least you've got the decency to clarify this right away.
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Everything short of the impossible, yeah. I think it CAN be done
The logistics of it are unreasonable, but possible. We humans are very good at creating big, flashy things for no real reason. The big problem is the politics. It would take a major miracle (and them some) for Trump to get congressional approval. Over the past few months, Trump has basically performed a hostile takeover of the Republican party. They hate him. Trump also embodies everything the Democrats disagree with the Republicans on. They hate him. Regardless of who wins the majority of Congress, Trump is going to have a helluva time getting anything through. Obama had trouble with just the Republicans opposing him. Imagine how hard it will be for Trump to do anything.
See, HERE is where we come to the actual impasse. I'm very much for the 'america first' message - And I can see why you'd think the way you do if you had a more global perspective. I've got a few buddies that have this same disagreement with me, and there's literally no getting around it without discussing deeply philosophical stuff that has no place in the trump thread.
Out of curiosity, are you from the states?
Yes. Born and raised in good ol' Murica. However, one of my parents is from the Middle East, so I have a clearer perspective on what's going on there. I hate all the hate going around. It makes my skin crawl. I was raised in an environment that fostered free thinking. I'm not religious, but I don't have a problem with religious people, so long as they don't force their beliefs on other people or use them to justify horrible acts. I also believe that we are a global people, and that no single life matters more than any other. I also subscribe to the "needs of the many over the needs of the few" philosophy.
This is just a brief summary of my world view. I'd love to go more in-depth, but this thread isn't really the place. Perhaps somewhere else.
No worries, at least you've got the decency to clarify this right away.
The other Trump proponents in this thread talked in circles to try to support their patron saint. It's nice to have someone who actually puts forward a logical argument. You should have come here a few hundred pages ago, before everyone else was burned out with talking about the same thing over and over again.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Everything short of the impossible, yeah. I think it CAN be done
The logistics of it are unreasonable, but possible. We humans are very good at creating big, flashy things for no real reason. The big problem is the politics. It would take a major miracle (and them some) for Trump to get congressional approval. Over the past few months, Trump has basically performed a hostile takeover of the Republican party. They hate him. Trump also embodies everything the Democrats disagree with the Republicans on. They hate him. Regardless of who wins the majority of Congress, Trump is going to have a helluva time getting anything through. Obama had trouble with just the Republicans opposing him. Imagine how hard it will be for Trump to do anything.
Even a president with congressional support would have a hell of a time getting that thing built. The Eminent Domain issues would be controversial. The wall would have to be exempt from many environmental protection laws which would piss off environmental groups. Then you have a big jurisdictional mess to untangle on the federal and state level as there a a ton of government agencies that would have jurisdiction over parts of the project.
Of course the big thing would be getting the funds to pay for it. If you stick to the idea of having Mexico pay for it that is a big face slap to national sovereignty and the US might as well just put a horse's head in Mexico's bed.
The wall would have to be exempt from many environmental protection laws which would piss off environmental groups.
Don't worry Trump already came up with a fool proof plan to deal with this issue. Eliminate the EPA entirely.
Even without the EPA you have laws like the Endangered Species Act and various laws and regulations administered by Fish and Wildlife Service or Bureau of Land Management. Then you have all the state level laws to deal with.
So, Clinton is within the margin of error of Trump in a recent poll in Georgia.
Georgia.
Safe to say that Trump has a problem if he can't manage to win that state.
Same is true in florida, ohio, and pennsylvania. Trump is a VERY different kind of politician - I think a lot of traditional polling will be wrong on this, as they were in the primaries.
That aside, the most recent poll seriously bothers me. The question gives four choices: Hillary, Trump, Libertarian or Independent, or undecided. (Emphasis mine). This question was clearly structured to get conservative-friendly libertarians an easy "no" on trump. Putting anything in addition to "independent candidate" really seems like they were pushing for a result. Part affiliation results in the poll corroborate this - republicans only net 5% of independents, while hillary gets the rest. There is no scenario where I believe that to be a reasonable result.
Anyways, I think its still to early to be discussing polling for the general - anything done this early is notoriously unreliable.
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Actually relevant to my prior statements: James Comey testifed the other day stating that there is no way to currently vet syrian refugees, and that mass admittance poses a serious security risk. This is worth a look/listen.
Trump was right on this issue, according to the FBI, and the dems are wrong. Thoughts?
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Trump was right on this issue, according to the FBI, and the dems are wrong. Thoughts?
That you might have a point if Trump limited his plan to people coming from Syria. Since he didn't and has been forced into yet another climbdown by saying he might be willing to grant the newly elected mayor of London an exception it would seem that he has more than slightly overreacted to the current situation. And is unfortunately stuck with another unworkable idea because his supporters love it, much like his Mexican border wall.
Actually relevant to my prior statements: James Comey testifed the other day stating that there is no way to currently vet syrian refugees, and that mass admittance poses a serious security risk. This is worth a look/listen.
Trump was right on this issue, according to the FBI, and the dems are wrong. Thoughts?
Actually relevant to my prior statements: James Comey testifed the other day stating that there is no way to currently vet syrian refugees, and that mass admittance poses a serious security risk. This is worth a look/listen.
Trump was right on this issue, according to the FBI, and the dems are wrong. Thoughts?
The fact of the matter is that the refugee relocation process is more stringent and time consuming than regular immigration standards via work visa programs. Any terrorist organization looking to get people into the country have a variety of options that are faster and easier than having an agent pose as a refugee.
You know what, neither Hilary nor Trump sound like a good choice. But I'm voting for Trump. Let's be honest, he's not going to blow up the world. He just won't so stop saying he'll be our last president. Too much drama. Trump doesn't need the presidency. Hilary does. She got horns***gled out of it 8 years ago and the desperation is plan as day on her face. She feel owed this election. She reminds of of smeagol whenever the one ring was just a few feet from his face. That's just creepy. Donald is rich enough to where he could just retire somewhere and **** young women. He isn't though. Another reason why Trump is good is that let's say he's elected. Worst case scenario he ****s up and the country hates him. That means that any nerdy, four-eyed, too smart for his own good democrat will wipe the floor with him. Then the Trump nightmare is over. Best case scenario, he actually does good. Think about it. He had a career in real estate. These other politicians have their political careers to think about when it comes to every decision they make. That's why Obama, Hilary, Cruz, Rubio usually tow their party's line. Trump does what he wants. No it doesn't mean he will do what he wants in the white house, but he'll try and maybe he'll get things done. Then best part is that he's a republican that isn't trying to take us to sunday school.
So let's say Hilary wins. The microscope will be on her all four years. The reps will shout from the rooftops her presidency is bad. So imagine if she actually ****s up. Then in four years, she'll go up against a slicked hair, well dressed God fearing man who hates abortion, gays and transgendered. Hilary will be damaged goods. It'll be GW Bush all over again.
Trump is what's best for the future if you are left-leaning and think republicans should all go back to the cave they crawled out of.
So, worst-case for Trump is that we only have to live in hell for four years, while worst-case for Hillary is that next election we get a repeat of a previous president?
Do you really think Hilary's admin will be a repeat? Obama was far more electable than Hilary ever could be. I don't think Hilary could survive another scandal, do you? Obama wasn't embroiled in an email scandal leading up to the election. Look, I don't doubt that left policies will be enacted under Hilary. But if she makes one mistake, just ONE and we're looking at another 8 years of bible-thumpers.
Do you really think Hilary's admin will be a repeat? Obama was far more electable than Hilary ever could be. I don't think Hilary could survive another scandal, do you? Obama wasn't embroiled in an email scandal leading up to the election. Look, I don't doubt that left policies will be enacted under Hilary. But if she makes one mistake, just ONE and we're looking at another 8 years of bible-thumpers.
Or Trump 2.0. I mean, the Republicans seem to have an endless supply of crazies on their side these days. Palin, Trump, Carson, etc.
I mean, Drumpf has super successful in the primaries. If I were a GOP office seeker, I'd ditch the bible-thumpers for the nativists that he's gathered.
Hilary does. She got horns***gled out of it 8 years ago and the desperation is plan as day on her face. She feel owed this election. She reminds of of smeagol whenever the one ring was just a few feet from his face. That's just creepy. Donald is rich enough to where he could just retire somewhere and **** young women. He isn't though.
Well, duh Hilary has long wanted to be President.
But Trump has planned to run for almost as long. Plus, if you think Hilary is full of herself, Trump is a complete narcissist. "I'm rich." "I'll be the best at the military your head will spin." It wouldn't be surprising if Trump's primary motive for running was to puff himself up.
Also, Trump is pretty creepy himself. Who pretends to be their own publicist so that they brag about dating celebrities? Who talks about their daughters like they want to date them? What's with the birther and the Cruz-JFK conspiracies?
If it was just the controversial policies, I think Trump would be fine as long as he has a bunch of advisors to keep him in check. But his personality suggests there's something else at work in his mind that I wouldn't want in a position of power.
And you really shouldn't complain about anyone inciting violence while attempting to support Trump. Its a wee bit hypocritical.
You may want to read the blue bit that the article was attached to. It was simply showing that Western Union has and will give the government detailed access to its system, enabling the tracking of individual remittances. If you read trump's statement (I guess I should assume you're never correctly informed about anything), you'd know that he uses an expanded interpretation of section 326 of the patriot act - something that is definitely not illegal, but would have to pass legal muster. Though with Obama's precedent of sweeping executive actions, I doubt this would pose much of a challenge. Finally, he has also stated that this would only apply to transfers by illegals - individuals that don't have any financial rights in the states. Legal citizens would not be impacted in any way, so you're "misinformed" again.
Following this logic, you shouldn't denounce the KKK since you support BLM. That aside, if you're suggesting equivalence between trump telling someone to "knock the crap" out of a heckler about to throw a tomato at him and BLM calling for genocide and rioting - well, I guess that puts your perspective firmly into the "completely irrational" category.
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Just google "Trump Wall Problem," and you'll get several expert analyses on the subject. For the sake of propriety, here is this lovely summary:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/04/trump-wall-mexico-foreign-policy/475581/
The consensus is it would, in theory, with a lot hard work, clever manuvers, and outright stubbornness, be possible. However, it would be hurtful to the economies of both countries, and end up causing more harm for the American people than good.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
I've spent plenty of time googling it, trust me. I've read the article you linked to - unfortunately, it is entirely a discussion on whether or not trump can finance the wall, with no actual analysis of how it would impact the american economy outside of vague allusions to a recession in a single paragraph prefaced with "its hard to predict what would happen." Worse yet, the possible recession took into account tariffs on both china and mexico that Trump has discussed in his campaign, assumed both would happen, and assumed that it would result trade wars with both countries. Now, while an economic recession IS a possibility, there is a lot of if's that are required for that worst-case scenario. In the best-case, it results in a massive economic benefit to the US and decreased crime from mexico.
Additionally, there is absolutely no discussion of the efficacy of a wall with regard to actually curbing illegal immigration, drug trafficking, and human rights abuses - all of which would absolutely be decreased if the wall were built (though you can argue that the return on investment isn't significant enough if you predict lower numbers).
So, your source is pretty much in line with what I stated - there is merit both in being for and against the wall from an economic standpoint, but the issue is hardly a settled discussion. There is no consensus on the feasibility OR outcome of building the wall, outside of the obvious land use/environmental issues that exist but are not insurmountable. Considering that your source states absolutely nothing with certainty other than "The wall is possible", are you willing to take back your claim that anyone that supports the wall is stupid and guaranteed to damage the US?
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Drug trafficking would not be hampered much. We already have significant hindrances to movement over certain parts our southern border (both natural and man-made), and we know that drugs make it through those areas regardless, with some people going as low tech as throwing the drugs over like a football to be picked up by someone already in America (who may be a legal citizen!) As the saying goes, if you build a 30ft wall, you create a market for 31ft ladders.
And even if the wall did stop or significantly reduce human trafficking, which I doubt, it would do nothing to stop human rights abuses in general; the kinds of people who commit such crimes would simply find another outlet for the same. If Pedro can't do it in the US, maybe he can do it in Nicaragua and make just as much money.
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Visa overstays account for sub-40% of all illegals currently residing in the states. Furthermore, not all of those overstays are permanent overstays, which suggests that the actual number of permanent illegal residents as a result of overstaying a visa may be even lower than that. And while I don't have stats for the last bit, I'd be willing to bet that FAR more overstays come from non-mexican immigrants. Where are you getting stats from?
Anything to back this up? While there are things like tunnels for smuggling, the vast majority truck them in through known POEs. While a wire fence won't do much, a solid, actual wall will dramatically impact the common forms of smuggling. HO
In that sense, deterring murder in the US is pointless, because killers will find elsewhere to kill. Fact is that most of the people involved in the smuggling business are disgusting rapists. Are you really making the argument that stopping a system full of rampant abuse won't stop the abuse that exists because of that system?
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Your citation on this? It probably could curb illegal immigration. Drug trafficking, not so much. Cartels have resources, and the wall would likely just be an inconvenience. Could you please explain exactly where the human rights abuses would be curbed? I genuinely want to know your reasoning as to which sector would be affected.
Thanks for reading the article I presented. It's certainly more than some other people have done in the past. It would appear, however, that this thread has fallen into the old rut of "I'm right, because I say so," and "No, I'm right, because I have the moral high ground." This conversation over the last page has literally gone nowhere. I don't know why I'm bothering anymore.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Glad we can agree
See my cite in my last comment - Most drug cartels literally just truck the drugs over unguarded parts of the border, or parts guarded by easily removable fencing. By building a damn fortification, we'd be preventing the most common, cheapest, and easiest route for drugs to enter through the mexican border. While I'm sure that catapults/tunnels/other ***** would still be used, a fully realized wall would significantly impact the ability of cartels to import drugs through our southern border.
Pretty sure I mentioned this before you hopped in - but upwards of 80% of female illegals are raped on the way over. Additionally, the southern border is a gateway for human trafficking into the states (One of the big markets for it). By building a wall and stopping Coyotes from operating, we'd be preventing the mass rape of the majority of female mexican illegals, as well as impacting human trafficking in the states.
My issue with your source was that it was almost entirely a discussion of the financial feasibility of the wall. You stated that supporters of the wall we stupid, misinformed, and that the wall would hurt our country. I'm simply taking issue with that fact that your source did not sufficiently discuss any of these claims.
Actually, I'm pretty sure we're mostly in agreement personally - IMO, the wall would be an expensive and difficult project with no empirically measurable benefits and massive political risk. However, I think I've demonstrated that there are arguments to be made for the wall, and the harm or benefit of it is unclear at best. To call people that support it stupid or misinformed is, as far as I'm concerned, rude and incorrect. They have as valid of an argument as you do, and I think its important that you recognize that. The trump campaign has been plagued with blatant mischaracterization of intention and motivation - its just gotten to a point that I'm pissed at people that mischaracterize it. Heck, there is a reason the guy is setting records with traditionally democratic voting blocs.
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We do kind of agree then, if you think the wall would be expensive, impractical, and impossible in today's political environment. You are also correct in saying that the wall has very few direct benefits, if any. The main difference, I think, is that you believe that potential benefits will outweigh the harm, whereas I don't see any net benefits, just relocating them to different places. This it think, is my primary problem with Trump and his supporters in general. He has cultivated the mindset of "America first, screw everyone else." This is something I cannot ever agree with, because America is part of a much larger world. I can't stand having a slightly lower crime rate, if it means people in Mexico and the Middle East are suffering and dying.
P.S. I would address your data about 80% of women getting raped, etc. but we have already gone over these points a dozen times over in this thread. I don't have the energy or willpower to do it again. My apologies.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Everything short of the impossible, yeah. I think it CAN be done
See, HERE is where we come to the actual impasse. I'm very much for the 'america first' message - And I can see why you'd think the way you do if you had a more global perspective. I've got a few buddies that have this same disagreement with me, and there's literally no getting around it without discussing deeply philosophical stuff that has no place in the trump thread.
Out of curiosity, are you from the states?
No worries, at least you've got the decency to clarify this right away.
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The logistics of it are unreasonable, but possible. We humans are very good at creating big, flashy things for no real reason. The big problem is the politics. It would take a major miracle (and them some) for Trump to get congressional approval. Over the past few months, Trump has basically performed a hostile takeover of the Republican party. They hate him. Trump also embodies everything the Democrats disagree with the Republicans on. They hate him. Regardless of who wins the majority of Congress, Trump is going to have a helluva time getting anything through. Obama had trouble with just the Republicans opposing him. Imagine how hard it will be for Trump to do anything.
Yes. Born and raised in good ol' Murica. However, one of my parents is from the Middle East, so I have a clearer perspective on what's going on there. I hate all the hate going around. It makes my skin crawl. I was raised in an environment that fostered free thinking. I'm not religious, but I don't have a problem with religious people, so long as they don't force their beliefs on other people or use them to justify horrible acts. I also believe that we are a global people, and that no single life matters more than any other. I also subscribe to the "needs of the many over the needs of the few" philosophy.
This is just a brief summary of my world view. I'd love to go more in-depth, but this thread isn't really the place. Perhaps somewhere else.
The other Trump proponents in this thread talked in circles to try to support their patron saint. It's nice to have someone who actually puts forward a logical argument. You should have come here a few hundred pages ago, before everyone else was burned out with talking about the same thing over and over again.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Even a president with congressional support would have a hell of a time getting that thing built. The Eminent Domain issues would be controversial. The wall would have to be exempt from many environmental protection laws which would piss off environmental groups. Then you have a big jurisdictional mess to untangle on the federal and state level as there a a ton of government agencies that would have jurisdiction over parts of the project.
Of course the big thing would be getting the funds to pay for it. If you stick to the idea of having Mexico pay for it that is a big face slap to national sovereignty and the US might as well just put a horse's head in Mexico's bed.
Even without the EPA you have laws like the Endangered Species Act and various laws and regulations administered by Fish and Wildlife Service or Bureau of Land Management. Then you have all the state level laws to deal with.
Georgia.
Safe to say that Trump has a problem if he can't manage to win that state.
Same is true in florida, ohio, and pennsylvania. Trump is a VERY different kind of politician - I think a lot of traditional polling will be wrong on this, as they were in the primaries.
That aside, the most recent poll seriously bothers me. The question gives four choices: Hillary, Trump, Libertarian or Independent, or undecided. (Emphasis mine). This question was clearly structured to get conservative-friendly libertarians an easy "no" on trump. Putting anything in addition to "independent candidate" really seems like they were pushing for a result. Part affiliation results in the poll corroborate this - republicans only net 5% of independents, while hillary gets the rest. There is no scenario where I believe that to be a reasonable result.
Anyways, I think its still to early to be discussing polling for the general - anything done this early is notoriously unreliable.
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Trump was right on this issue, according to the FBI, and the dems are wrong. Thoughts?
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That you might have a point if Trump limited his plan to people coming from Syria. Since he didn't and has been forced into yet another climbdown by saying he might be willing to grant the newly elected mayor of London an exception it would seem that he has more than slightly overreacted to the current situation. And is unfortunately stuck with another unworkable idea because his supporters love it, much like his Mexican border wall.
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"The other day" is October?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/dec/15/ted-cruz/ted-cruzs-claim-head-fbi-told-congress-they-cannot/
So let's say Hilary wins. The microscope will be on her all four years. The reps will shout from the rooftops her presidency is bad. So imagine if she actually ****s up. Then in four years, she'll go up against a slicked hair, well dressed God fearing man who hates abortion, gays and transgendered. Hilary will be damaged goods. It'll be GW Bush all over again.
Trump is what's best for the future if you are left-leaning and think republicans should all go back to the cave they crawled out of.
Is that really what you're saying?
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Or Trump 2.0. I mean, the Republicans seem to have an endless supply of crazies on their side these days. Palin, Trump, Carson, etc.
I mean, Drumpf has super successful in the primaries. If I were a GOP office seeker, I'd ditch the bible-thumpers for the nativists that he's gathered.
Well, duh Hilary has long wanted to be President.
But Trump has planned to run for almost as long. Plus, if you think Hilary is full of herself, Trump is a complete narcissist. "I'm rich." "I'll be the best at the military your head will spin." It wouldn't be surprising if Trump's primary motive for running was to puff himself up.
Also, Trump is pretty creepy himself. Who pretends to be their own publicist so that they brag about dating celebrities? Who talks about their daughters like they want to date them? What's with the birther and the Cruz-JFK conspiracies?
If it was just the controversial policies, I think Trump would be fine as long as he has a bunch of advisors to keep him in check. But his personality suggests there's something else at work in his mind that I wouldn't want in a position of power.