Over the timeframe you're talking about, the proportion of Christians in the USA decreased, and the proportion of agnostics/atheists increased. Would that explain a shift away from social (but not necessarily fiscal) conservatism in the political landscape?
Short answer: no. Social conservatism represents a rather small fraction of American Christians. Most Americans of all political alignments are Christian. (One remarkable aspect of the current election that's getting very little press what with all the other nonsense going on is that Bernie Sanders is not.) And even when agnosticism/atheism grows, it's still very much a minority demographic.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
[Torture has revealed zero actionable intelligence to the CIA. Why are you okay with cruelty that serves no purpose?
Ok, I want to preface this by saying that even if this were false, it still wouldn't morally justify torturing people.
That being said, where does the claim that it had zero useful information come from? Not saying it isn't true, I just want to know where this comes from.
That being said, where does the claim that it had zero useful information come from? Not saying it isn't true, I just want to know where this comes from.
The actual CIA themselves filed a report that said torture is ineffective. Some officials will point to it and say there were a few cases, but NONE of them actually resulted in any useful information, only false alarms or useless info. It also concludes use of torture damages America's standing internationally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_CIA_torture
It's pretty indicative that torture is more than just morally wrong, but ineffective, when the US, one of the world's strongest military and intelligence countries, employed it during the height of terrorist fear, concludes it was a total waste of time.
EDIT: Correction- the CIA didn't make the report, it was a US senate lead political intelligence committee, the CIA have tried to defend their actions, but utterly miserably, citing twenty cases where 'enhanced interrogation' provided any valuable intel, all of which where just false alarms, lies, obvious information they already knew, or something like that.
I think at some point you have to realize there is good and evil in this world.
Yes, and you should realize that you have a moral obligation not to be the second one. Doesn't just apply to the people who aren't you.
Ahh yes, the usual tact of leftists in these conversations to draw a moral equivalence with us and people who try to stab and kill babies because they are Jewish.
Concerning this argument about political positions. It doesn't matter whether something is right or left, the only thing that matters is if it is right or wrong. Besides, if we were shifting more right in recent history, it would be as a symptom of how far left we have been pushed in the last hundred years by Progressivism.
Ahh yes, the usual tact of leftists in these conversations to draw a moral equivalence with us and people who try to stab and kill babies because they are Jewish.
I'm not sure which I should regard as more out-of-nowhere, the claim that I'm a leftist, or the rest of that sentence.
Regardless, you don't get to appeal to ideas of good and evil and use that to justify doing immoral things. That's ridiculous.
Besides, if we were shifting more right in recent history, it would be as a symptom of how far left we have been pushed in the last hundred years by Progressivism.
What exactly are we defining as "far to the left?" Gay marriage? The Civil Rights movement? Roe v Wade? America is considered to be very conservative by the majority of the developed world. Calling it "far to the left" is laughable.
I hope that, if Trump manages to get the presidency, the rest of the world takes a cue from his "shoot first, ask later" policies and bomb the ***** out of him.
Anyone who can watch this debate and say, "Yes, Trump is my guy" is beyond help in my opinion.
Trump is looking like an angry baby. Every time someone goads him he takes the bait and yells like a petulant child. He's playing right into everyone else's hands and he doesn't get it.
The man has no control over his emotions. He becomes hysterical at the slightest bruise to his ego. And this is the man you want to have as our Commander-in-Chief? The man has no judgment at all.
Hoping for Kasich to get a bump. Cruz is like a televangelist crossed with a used car salesman, except less credible. Rubio is passable, but he's not someone who inspires confidence and I don't think he'd be able to stand up to Clinton.
EDIT: Ok, everyone go to CNN.com right now.
"Trump defends the size of his *****" is an actual headline.
This is real. This is actually happening.
Let's just take a moment to understand that this is actually happening.
Torture has revealed zero actionable intelligence to the CIA. Why are you okay with cruelty that serves no purpose?
Ok, I want to preface this by saying that even if this were false, it still wouldn't morally justify torturing people.
I agree that it's morally reprehensible regardless of circumstances, but there are plenty of people especially in the grip of a terrorism scare, that would feel the ends justify the means.
The problem is that in the case of torture, the ends don't justify anything, much less the means.
I agree that it's morally reprehensible regardless of circumstances, but there are plenty of people especially in the grip of a terrorism scare, that would feel the ends justify the means.
The problem is that in the case of torture, the ends don't justify anything, much less the means.
We've already had a thread on this, and I don't want to get off-topic, so I'll just say that yes, it's quite clear there's no rational support for torture.
Gay marriage? The Civil Rights movement? Roe v Wade? America is considered to be very conservative by the majority of the developed world.
Yes, it is, but for two of your three examples, America does happen to have been quite liberal even by international standards.
Depends on what you mean by international. In the developed world America is more liberal than places like Japan or Russia, but compared to our closest neighbors in Canada and Western Europe we're kind of behind.
Depends on what you mean by international. In the developed world America is more liberal than places like Japan or Russia, but compared to our closest neighbors in Canada and Western Europe we're kind of behind.
In general, yes (although "ahead" is of course subjective), but not on gay marriage and abortion. We started legalizing gay marriage pretty early on, and our abortion laws are actually extremely permissive.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
America did start legalizing gay marriage early on, but so did several European countries. Around 10 members of the EU had gay marriage nationally recognized before we did.
And I'm not trying to say that America is very conservative or that we're behind the enlightened Europeans, but its undeniable that America has many conservative traits and generally falls further to the right than a lot of the developed world.
@Highroller: I suppose you are unaware of the barbaric and evil acts Islamic extremists commit on almost a daily basis. But if you are going to speak from an ivory tower, you'll have to drop the moral equivalency nonsense.
@Highroller: I suppose you are unaware of the barbaric and evil acts Islamic extremists commit on almost a daily basis. But if you are going to speak from an ivory tower, you'll have to drop the moral equivalency nonsense.
Highroller hasn't said anything that suggests he's unaware of atrocities, or made even the slightest hint of moral equivalency. Maybe try a different angle.
I'm glad he has your vote of confidence. Except, when one says they are not sure what stabbing Jewish babies has to do with terrorists it seems evident to the contrary. Also, pouring water on a serial murderer's face to find another serial murderer does not strike me as immoral.
Also, pouring water on a serial murderer's face to find another serial murderer does not strike me as immoral.
So, creating a society where institutional violence and cruelty is justified for the "greater good" is fine for you? Because you'll generalize violence and cruelty since they're used by the "good guys" anyway.
How about we stick with the society in which fighting evil involves more than a captive vacation to the Caribbean.
Isn't war enough? You do realize that the people dying and suffering against the US in conflicts are far from just a whole bunch of ********s? Many of them are going to be reasonably young and inexperienced and simply going along with the pressure, doing what they think is right. Good people. Those who 'deserve' torture most are bound to be among the more resistant to it, because they are going to be experienced in this sort of thing. It's not like it's all that hard, all you have to do is lie in a way that is close enough to the truth that they won't know you are lying, and it's not like there are any truly reliable methods of detecting lying. So, the people you are most likely going to succeed with torture, are going to be most likely really not very bad people, and perhaps more importantly, probably don't require torture to be coerced.
I'll repeat that the US government investigated the CIA's torture practices and found zero credible cases of effective use of torture, and concluded it also damaged US reputation. So, it's not worth it at all in any case.
Also, pouring water on a serial murderer's face to find another serial murderer does not strike me as immoral.
When the result is actually "create many more serial murderers" rather than "find another serial murderer" it seems at least a bit immoral and very illogical. Make no mistake the terrorists rally on our atrocities like we rally on theirs. Every civilian we don't kill and every prisoner we treat properly pours water on their fire rather than fuel.
People need to think less with raw emotions and look at the situation logically.
The GOP feud with Trump is coming full circle. Former Republican aide to Ronald Reagan now says he is voting for Trump in the hopes that Trump will finally destroy the current iteration of the Republican party.
“I think only when it has reached rock bottom can responsible Republicans once again come back and make it a reasonable governing party.”
“Right now,” Bartlett said his party is “just a coalition of cranks, and racists and bigots and religious kooks.” The Tea Party, Bartlett said, “have to be run out of the Party completely.”
"I think if he gets the nomination, and I hope he does, he will go down to a historic defeat. I think the Republican establishment will have no choice but to disown him. I think there will be a very substantial “Republicans for Hillary” effort and I think he will lose disastrously and hopefully bring down a lot of Republican senators and congressmen with him."
Bartlett went on to explain that his hope is that after suffering resounding electoral defeat, enough Republicans will finally come to their senses and — at least for the sake of winning the White House again — return to governing.
If you click on the link to the full image, he documents his methodology and sources. You can look into it deeper, but here's their webpage: http://voteview.com/dwnomin.htm . It's actually quite dense, and my sense from your response is that you won't be interested in taking the time to understand. But if I'm wrong on that, enjoy your studies.
I'm not interested in a thread derail so I won't go into the rest of your post.
I just wanted to get some clarification on the above link.
Honestly, I haven't liked any of the Republican candidates and can't say I'm in love with the democrats, either. Right now I'm bending towards Sanders/Hillary.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
So the answer is no, you didn't think things through at all.
Yes.
Yes, and you should realize that you have a moral obligation not to be the second one. Doesn't just apply to the people who aren't you.
Ok, I want to preface this by saying that even if this were false, it still wouldn't morally justify torturing people.
That being said, where does the claim that it had zero useful information come from? Not saying it isn't true, I just want to know where this comes from.
The actual CIA themselves filed a report that said torture is ineffective. Some officials will point to it and say there were a few cases, but NONE of them actually resulted in any useful information, only false alarms or useless info. It also concludes use of torture damages America's standing internationally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_CIA_torture
It's pretty indicative that torture is more than just morally wrong, but ineffective, when the US, one of the world's strongest military and intelligence countries, employed it during the height of terrorist fear, concludes it was a total waste of time.
EDIT: Correction- the CIA didn't make the report, it was a US senate lead political intelligence committee, the CIA have tried to defend their actions, but utterly miserably, citing twenty cases where 'enhanced interrogation' provided any valuable intel, all of which where just false alarms, lies, obvious information they already knew, or something like that.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Ahh yes, the usual tact of leftists in these conversations to draw a moral equivalence with us and people who try to stab and kill babies because they are Jewish.
Concerning this argument about political positions. It doesn't matter whether something is right or left, the only thing that matters is if it is right or wrong. Besides, if we were shifting more right in recent history, it would be as a symptom of how far left we have been pushed in the last hundred years by Progressivism.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Regardless, you don't get to appeal to ideas of good and evil and use that to justify doing immoral things. That's ridiculous.
Ok, well, there you go. I consider the matter closed.
What exactly are we defining as "far to the left?" Gay marriage? The Civil Rights movement? Roe v Wade? America is considered to be very conservative by the majority of the developed world. Calling it "far to the left" is laughable.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Trump is looking like an angry baby. Every time someone goads him he takes the bait and yells like a petulant child. He's playing right into everyone else's hands and he doesn't get it.
The man has no control over his emotions. He becomes hysterical at the slightest bruise to his ego. And this is the man you want to have as our Commander-in-Chief? The man has no judgment at all.
Hoping for Kasich to get a bump. Cruz is like a televangelist crossed with a used car salesman, except less credible. Rubio is passable, but he's not someone who inspires confidence and I don't think he'd be able to stand up to Clinton.
EDIT: Ok, everyone go to CNN.com right now.
"Trump defends the size of his *****" is an actual headline.
This is real. This is actually happening.
Let's just take a moment to understand that this is actually happening.
The problem is that in the case of torture, the ends don't justify anything, much less the means.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Depends on what you mean by international. In the developed world America is more liberal than places like Japan or Russia, but compared to our closest neighbors in Canada and Western Europe we're kind of behind.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
And I'm not trying to say that America is very conservative or that we're behind the enlightened Europeans, but its undeniable that America has many conservative traits and generally falls further to the right than a lot of the developed world.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Highroller hasn't said anything that suggests he's unaware of atrocities, or made even the slightest hint of moral equivalency. Maybe try a different angle.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
So, creating a society where institutional violence and cruelty is justified for the "greater good" is fine for you? Because you'll generalize violence and cruelty since they're used by the "good guys" anyway.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Isn't war enough? You do realize that the people dying and suffering against the US in conflicts are far from just a whole bunch of ********s? Many of them are going to be reasonably young and inexperienced and simply going along with the pressure, doing what they think is right. Good people. Those who 'deserve' torture most are bound to be among the more resistant to it, because they are going to be experienced in this sort of thing. It's not like it's all that hard, all you have to do is lie in a way that is close enough to the truth that they won't know you are lying, and it's not like there are any truly reliable methods of detecting lying. So, the people you are most likely going to succeed with torture, are going to be most likely really not very bad people, and perhaps more importantly, probably don't require torture to be coerced.
I'll repeat that the US government investigated the CIA's torture practices and found zero credible cases of effective use of torture, and concluded it also damaged US reputation. So, it's not worth it at all in any case.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
When the result is actually "create many more serial murderers" rather than "find another serial murderer" it seems at least a bit immoral and very illogical. Make no mistake the terrorists rally on our atrocities like we rally on theirs. Every civilian we don't kill and every prisoner we treat properly pours water on their fire rather than fuel.
People need to think less with raw emotions and look at the situation logically.
http://www.salon.com/2016/03/03/my_goal_is_to_destroy_the_republican_party_former_reagan_adviser_bruce_bartlett_explains_his_vote_for_donald_trump/
I'm not interested in a thread derail so I won't go into the rest of your post.
I just wanted to get some clarification on the above link.
The only link I saw on your post was- http://xkcd.com/1127/large/
So... where the heck did you get voteview.com?
Thanks.
Edit-
Oh I see. It's in that small column to the right.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!