This has been buzzing around B.C. for a few days now. A transgendered female was DQ'd from the Miss Universe pageant after reaching the finals to represent Canada, because she was born with male genitals. There's been some back-and-forth controversy about this issue. One sort of disgusting thing that has come out of this has been seeing the ignorance of the majority of Canadian commenters when it comes to this issue.
Is it fair/just for a transgendered woman to be kicked out of a contest like this?
*Also please note I could care less about a superficial beauty pageant, the issue is discriminaton here*
Moderator's note (4/6/2012): Thread-specific rule set down here.
If the contest is specifically only open to women, then they do have grounds to dismiss her, if they define a woman as someone who has exactly 2 'X' chromosomes and no 'Y's. I do think that this person is a woman in mind and appearance, but not in genetics.
If the contest is specifically only open to women, then they do have grounds to dismiss her, if they define a woman as someone who has exactly 2 'X' chromosomes and no 'Y's. I do think that this person is a woman in mind and appearance, but not in genetics.
Well then, would you argue that all entrants should get a genetics test? Make sure they all have 2 'X' chromosomes? That would discriminate against a woman with only one 'X' chromosome and a variety of other women with genetic abnormalities. Discriminating on the basis of having 'healthy' genes would not go over well with most people.
More importantly, it's not about whether they have grounds to dismiss her; they're a private organization and can do whatever the hell they want. It's about whether this is a disgusting display of transphobia or not. It is.
Well then, would you argue that all entrants should get a genetics test? Make sure they all have 2 'X' chromosomes? That would discriminate against a woman with only one 'X' chromosome and a variety of other women with genetic abnormalities. Discriminating on the basis of having 'healthy' genes would not go over well with most people.
This probably wouldn't be necessary. This seems like a rare case. Organizations can probably afford to just take people at their word that they are a woman, and only act when a situation presents itself.
Actually he is a man that decided to have has ***** surgically replaced with a ******. He is not a woman since he was not born with the DNA of a woman.
I was actually born as an amputee in a non-amputee body. As such I plan on having a amputee reassignment surgery where they cut off my arm. I think it's only fair that the tax payers pay for my surgery. It's not that I have a mental disorder I just honestly believe I was born as an amputee.
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Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
Actually he is a man that decided to have has ***** surgically replaced with a ******. He is not a woman since he was not born with the DNA of a woman.
Yes, she was born a male. She then chose to undergo gender reassignment to align her gender presentation with her internal gender identity. Though Jenna wasn't born with the DNA of a woman, she has transitioned and is now living life as a woman. She's likely also a woman in the eyes of the law as well, though I can't be sure as the legal process differs province to province.
Okay, so ought the Miss Universe pageant disqualify her for that?
The Miss universe pageant is for women. Not for men who assume the identity of a woman.
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Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
Well then, would you argue that all entrants should get a genetics test? Make sure they all have 2 'X' chromosomes? That would discriminate against a woman with only one 'X' chromosome and a variety of other women with genetic abnormalities.
In a contest in which the distinguishing qualification is that you are female? Did you miss that part?
I feel if the person's been masculinized enough to have male private organs, to disqualify that contestant is completely within reason.
It's about whether this is a disgusting display of transphobia or not.
Ok, what if a man decided to enter? He'd be disqualified. Exactly zero people would take issue.
So what's wrong with disqualifying this contestant?
The Miss universe pageant is for women. Not for men who assume the identity of a woman.
...That's sort of the entire question up for debate. It's not like the pageant people have their hands tied on this. It's their pageant, and they could let transgender people compete if they wanted to. Saying that it's "for women" doesn't really mean anything.
The Miss universe pageant is for women. Not for men who assume the identity of a woman.
1) I question your definition of 'woman'.
2) And the major leagues were "for white people". It doesn't matter what it's for, it's what it SHOULD be for. Even if the rules specifically banned transgender people, that isn't an argument as to whether those should be the rules in the first place.
Okay, so ought the Miss Universe pageant disqualify her for that?
If it's in their rules, yes. They could change the rules later if they wanted to, but they have no legal obligation to let her in.
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2) And the major leagues were "for white people". It doesn't matter what it's for, it's what it SHOULD be for. Even if the rules specifically banned transgender people, that isn't an argument as to whether those should be the rules in the first place.
A woman is someone who was born as a woman. A man is someone who was born as a man.
A transgender man is a man who had his ***** replaced with a ******, and added a pair of breasts. He is still a man because he was born as a man. Replacing a ***** with a ****** does not change your biological makeup of who you are.
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Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
Personally I am against pageants altogether, but the question "what is the goal and point of the miss universe pageant" comes to mind.
If it has to do anything with the "embodiment of womanly ideals" or etc then trans-women should absolutely be allowed in.
If it is more so "to help propagate the patriarchy and reinforce gender and sexuality standards" then I think they made the right choice.
The Miss universe pageant is for women. Not for men who assume the identity of a woman.
It's true that Jenna was not born with female parts and that even after years of transitioning and gender reassignment surgery she will never "fully" be a woman in that she won't experience things we associate with being a normal woman (periods, pregnancy, etc), but she is for all intents and purposes a woman. You can draw a line and say that she isn't a woman all you want, but I think that's rather ignorant of the reality of transgenderism.
In a contest in which the distinguishing qualification is that you are female? Did you miss that part?
I doubt anyone did. I would presume her supporters think (as I do) that the differences between being a transgender woman like Jenna and being born female are minor and ultimately inconsequential in this context.
Ok, what if a man decided to enter? He'd be disqualified. Exactly zero people would take issue.
What about a post-op FtM? I mean, he would be female, right?
So what's wrong with disqualifying this contestant?
Aside from that it's clearly based upon transphobia?
Smells like a marketing decision, Americans tend not to like mix sex and to the average American male would see her as a "she male," become sexually confused or whatever, and change channel. This was a pure marketing decision front and center to appeal to the average.
And as such, I'm not a big fan of pageants in the first place. I see them as mostly a waste of time. The clear exceptions are body building competitions, where you generally well... compete to build muscles which I consider equal to something like a running contest.
From an artistic stand point, I'm not too sure on the sciences and the like but looking at the photography they did a wonderful job with the outward appearance for her. The amount of work done is something that's actually intriguing to a degree and would be ultimately fascinating to see how she would compete as is now against the other debutantes. Equally, if she were allowed to compete it would probably help to breakdown the stigma surrounding these sexual identifiers.
I mean for one thing, she can still marry a man if she chose to do so in the US. Which makes this a bit of a hypocrisy without getting into the whole "gay marriage debate debacle."
Considering Trump's "shift" to the right, this may very well coincide with his image as the "conservative business man." He's about as conservative as Mitt Romney aka Nixon 2.0, which I consider a sham. Which adds another layer to the marketing to cross over self promote as gaining conservative street cred.
If it's in their rules, yes. They could change the rules later if they wanted to, but they have no legal obligation to let her in.
Sorry, I didn't mean "are they within their rights to do so?", they clearly are and I wouldn't dispute that. What I was asking was whether or not disqualifying her was good or bad.
Let me ask a different question: Has anyone's opinion of the Miss Universe organization dropped because of this?
No, not really. I'm not exceptionally shocked, to be honest. Transphobia is still very much an acceptable thing in our society, to the point that it's still shocking when one does not question transgendered people. If otherwise decent people can still be ignorant and/or insensitive about transgenderism, I don't have much hope for douchecanoes like Donald Trump and the organizations he operates.
It's true that Jenna was not born with female parts and that even after years of transitioning and gender reassignment surgery she will never "fully" be a woman in that she won't experience things we associate with being a normal woman (periods, pregnancy, etc), but she is for all intents and purposes a woman. You can draw a line and say that she isn't a woman all you want, but I think that's rather ignorant of the reality of transgenderism.
But they are not a woman for all intents and purposes. A transgender man does not think like a woman, he does not act like a woman. He is not able to have a period or get pregnant. He is merely a man who replaced his sexual organs.
In the same way that a transgender woman does not think or act like a man, nor is able to impregnate woman. She is merely a woman who replaced her sexual organs.
I doubt anyone did. I would presume her supporters think (as I do) that the differences between being a transgender woman like Jenna and being born female are minor and ultimately inconsequential in this context.
Except ya know; Cells, DNA, Chromosomes, how the brain is chemically wired and responses to stimuli.
What about a post-op FtM? I mean, he would be female, right?
He would be a man who has the sexual organs of a female.
Aside from that it's clearly based upon transphobia?
Aside from the fact that it's not.
If someone honestly believes they are the opposite sex, they have every right to have an operation to have the body of the opposite sex. It doesn't turn them into the opposite sex, but it does alleviate the stress and trauma they are going though.
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Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
What about a post-op FtM? I mean, he would be female, right?
What about a pre-op person who mentally associates as male but is born female? Is that person then to be disqualified? Doesn't really make sense, does it?
I don't feel that a man should be able to surgically alter himself to appear female to enter a female-only beauty contest. I think we all agree here. So I'm not sure what specifically is different about a person who is born sexed male but who identifies with the female gender to warrant a different reaction.
I think it's perfectly natural to say, "If you were sexed male, you're not allowed in a women-only beauty pageant." That's fine by my books.
Because the Miss Universe is for Woman. A transgender man is not a woman.
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Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
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This has been buzzing around B.C. for a few days now. A transgendered female was DQ'd from the Miss Universe pageant after reaching the finals to represent Canada, because she was born with male genitals. There's been some back-and-forth controversy about this issue. One sort of disgusting thing that has come out of this has been seeing the ignorance of the majority of Canadian commenters when it comes to this issue.
Is it fair/just for a transgendered woman to be kicked out of a contest like this?
*Also please note I could care less about a superficial beauty pageant, the issue is discriminaton here*
Moderator's note (4/6/2012): Thread-specific rule set down here.
Well then, would you argue that all entrants should get a genetics test? Make sure they all have 2 'X' chromosomes? That would discriminate against a woman with only one 'X' chromosome and a variety of other women with genetic abnormalities. Discriminating on the basis of having 'healthy' genes would not go over well with most people.
More importantly, it's not about whether they have grounds to dismiss her; they're a private organization and can do whatever the hell they want. It's about whether this is a disgusting display of transphobia or not. It is.
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This probably wouldn't be necessary. This seems like a rare case. Organizations can probably afford to just take people at their word that they are a woman, and only act when a situation presents itself.
She is a woman. And a rather beautiful one at that (at least outside of pageant makeup).
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You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
Yes, she was born a male. She then chose to undergo gender reassignment to align her gender presentation with her internal gender identity. Though Jenna wasn't born with the DNA of a woman, she has transitioned and is now living life as a woman. She's likely also a woman in the eyes of the law as well, though I can't be sure as the legal process differs province to province.
A decent ideal, but probably a bit hard to implement given the prevalence of plastic surgery in the pageant world.
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Jenna is a transgender woman, fine.
Okay, so ought the Miss Universe pageant disqualify her for that?
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Katingal: Plane of Chains
The Miss universe pageant is for women. Not for men who assume the identity of a woman.
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
In a contest in which the distinguishing qualification is that you are female? Did you miss that part?
I feel if the person's been masculinized enough to have male private organs, to disqualify that contestant is completely within reason.
Ok, what if a man decided to enter? He'd be disqualified. Exactly zero people would take issue.
So what's wrong with disqualifying this contestant?
...That's sort of the entire question up for debate. It's not like the pageant people have their hands tied on this. It's their pageant, and they could let transgender people compete if they wanted to. Saying that it's "for women" doesn't really mean anything.
1) I question your definition of 'woman'.
2) And the major leagues were "for white people". It doesn't matter what it's for, it's what it SHOULD be for. Even if the rules specifically banned transgender people, that isn't an argument as to whether those should be the rules in the first place.
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If it's in their rules, yes. They could change the rules later if they wanted to, but they have no legal obligation to let her in.
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My opinion of them was already at rock bottom, so this hasn't made it any worse.
A woman is someone who was born as a woman. A man is someone who was born as a man.
A transgender man is a man who had his ***** replaced with a ******, and added a pair of breasts. He is still a man because he was born as a man. Replacing a ***** with a ****** does not change your biological makeup of who you are.
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
If it has to do anything with the "embodiment of womanly ideals" or etc then trans-women should absolutely be allowed in.
If it is more so "to help propagate the patriarchy and reinforce gender and sexuality standards" then I think they made the right choice.
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It's true that Jenna was not born with female parts and that even after years of transitioning and gender reassignment surgery she will never "fully" be a woman in that she won't experience things we associate with being a normal woman (periods, pregnancy, etc), but she is for all intents and purposes a woman. You can draw a line and say that she isn't a woman all you want, but I think that's rather ignorant of the reality of transgenderism.
I doubt anyone did. I would presume her supporters think (as I do) that the differences between being a transgender woman like Jenna and being born female are minor and ultimately inconsequential in this context.
What about a post-op FtM? I mean, he would be female, right?
Aside from that it's clearly based upon transphobia?
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And as such, I'm not a big fan of pageants in the first place. I see them as mostly a waste of time. The clear exceptions are body building competitions, where you generally well... compete to build muscles which I consider equal to something like a running contest.
From an artistic stand point, I'm not too sure on the sciences and the like but looking at the photography they did a wonderful job with the outward appearance for her. The amount of work done is something that's actually intriguing to a degree and would be ultimately fascinating to see how she would compete as is now against the other debutantes. Equally, if she were allowed to compete it would probably help to breakdown the stigma surrounding these sexual identifiers.
I mean for one thing, she can still marry a man if she chose to do so in the US. Which makes this a bit of a hypocrisy without getting into the whole "gay marriage debate debacle."
Considering Trump's "shift" to the right, this may very well coincide with his image as the "conservative business man." He's about as conservative as Mitt Romney aka Nixon 2.0, which I consider a sham. Which adds another layer to the marketing to cross over self promote as gaining conservative street cred.
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Sorry, I didn't mean "are they within their rights to do so?", they clearly are and I wouldn't dispute that. What I was asking was whether or not disqualifying her was good or bad.
No, not really. I'm not exceptionally shocked, to be honest. Transphobia is still very much an acceptable thing in our society, to the point that it's still shocking when one does not question transgendered people. If otherwise decent people can still be ignorant and/or insensitive about transgenderism, I don't have much hope for douchecanoes like Donald Trump and the organizations he operates.
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Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
But they are not a woman for all intents and purposes. A transgender man does not think like a woman, he does not act like a woman. He is not able to have a period or get pregnant. He is merely a man who replaced his sexual organs.
In the same way that a transgender woman does not think or act like a man, nor is able to impregnate woman. She is merely a woman who replaced her sexual organs.
Except ya know; Cells, DNA, Chromosomes, how the brain is chemically wired and responses to stimuli.
He would be a man who has the sexual organs of a female.
Aside from the fact that it's not.
If someone honestly believes they are the opposite sex, they have every right to have an operation to have the body of the opposite sex. It doesn't turn them into the opposite sex, but it does alleviate the stress and trauma they are going though.
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
I don't feel that a man should be able to surgically alter himself to appear female to enter a female-only beauty contest. I think we all agree here. So I'm not sure what specifically is different about a person who is born sexed male but who identifies with the female gender to warrant a different reaction.
I think it's perfectly natural to say, "If you were sexed male, you're not allowed in a women-only beauty pageant." That's fine by my books.
Which make a difference in the context of competing in the Miss Universe pageant how exactly?
Archatmos
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Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.