Video. warning: NSFW. The title says it all: a few American soldiers urinated of the corpse of some Taliban combatant after killing them.
Disgusting behaviour. You'd think they'd have learned after Abbu Graib debacle, but apparently not. And before you say "it's immoral behaviour, but not a war crime": it is. Second Geneva Conventions, article 18: "After each engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the shipwrecked, wounded and sick, to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and prevent their being despoiled."
So, what kind of effect do you think this will have, both on the war itself and America's relations with other countries?
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We have laboured long to build a heaven, only to find it populated with horrors.
I'm a little surprised this is actually considered a war crime, but I also don't understand how it is determined.
Personally, I don't understand the attachment people have to corpses. I tend not to see them as anything other than rotting flesh and, in the cases of donation, spare parts, but I understand that people do have these beliefs. I can't imagine why urinating on a corpse would be considered beyond the pale but having one riddled with shrapnel and contorted after having died in agony is considered fine. I'm far more offended by the later action.
It's what happens in war. Sad but true. Best thing would be to just avoid war altogether. Once it starts you can't fully control how people will react to it.
Side note, it's time for U.S. allies to pay their "fair share" for military ventures. Europe, South Korea, Japan, etc. all of these powers get to stand around twiddling their thumbs while the U.S. does the dirty work and has to care for most of the crazies produced by the world's militarism. I don't even want a military but as long as you all won't give that up then at least pay your fair share.
We actually have a rule against this stuff, we are suppose to treat enemy dead with respect, for those wondering why its a warcrime.
@
jossbrerir, I am currently in afghanistan, stationed on a french base supporting the french military while they do all the dirty work in this section. I believe the Brits have a section and I know the Polish do as well. Each of these groups take charge of everthing in their area.
Jace SHOULD be unbanned in modern. I hate all the people saying "JACE IS BROKEN OHMYGOD HE'LL TAKE OVER AND CAWBLADE WILL REIGN SUPREME AGAIN" when bloodbraid elf literally comes down after jace and kicks jace right in the crotch, takes jace's lunch money, and jace is left to bleed out on the sidewalk in agonizing pain.
We actually have a rule against this stuff, we are suppose to treat enemy dead with respect, for those wondering why its a warcrime.
I don't know the technical definition of "warcrime" but it's pretty disturbing for sure.
jossbrerir, I am currently in afghanistan, stationed on a french base supporting the french military while they do all the dirty work in this section. I believe the Brits have a section and I know the Polish do as well. Each of these groups take charge of everthing in their area.
Yes, I am aware of this... but it is not enough. What percentage of NATO forces are U.S. in origin? How about the U.N.? Who protects South Korea? Japan? Is the U.S. in Iceland still? Definitely still in Germany. Madness has to end.
Anyway, not a fan of the military and whatnot but you are quite brave and I do wish you the best. Can't imagine the terrible things you've seen and I'm very sorry for that. Hang in there.
Yes, I am aware of this... but it is not enough. What percentage of NATO forces are U.S. in origin? How about the U.N.? Who protects South Korea? Japan? Is the U.S. in Iceland still? Definitely still in Germany. Madness has to end.
You can't actually blame Japan for not having any much of a hand in such operations. After all, the US initially forced them to renounce all military power and had it actually written in their constitution that they couldn't raise and maintain an armed service.
They might have the ability back, but I don't blame them for holding back with what little they have.
I'm a little surprised this is actually considered a war crime, but I also don't understand how it is determined.
Personally, I don't understand the attachment people have to corpses. I tend not to see them as anything other than rotting flesh and, in the cases of donation, spare parts, but I understand that people do have these beliefs. I can't imagine why urinating on a corpse would be considered beyond the pale but having one riddled with shrapnel and contorted after having died in agony is considered fine. I'm far more offended by the later action.
It's adding insult to injury. It has nothing to do with attachment to corpses. They killed them, and pissed on them.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
This is hardly a war crime and I refuse to acknowledge the Taliban as a legitimate "party" or that we're even fighting a "war" in the conventional terms.
I'm not going to defend torturing terrorists but this is Dijon Mustard to me in terms of ridiculousness.
EDIT: Here is something I would like to add.
Quote from Zabihullah Mujahed, Taliban spokesman »
This video will not affect our negotiation in the future. Americans have always committed bigger crimes in which they dishonored Taliban and civilians. We’ve seen this video and we consider this the most disrespectful, inhuman and immoral act.
Even the Taliban acknowledges the extent to the videos have been blown out of proportion.
Kinda hard to feel sorry when they are chopping peoples heads off on Camera. As far as Im concerned they gave up the rights of fair treatment when they decide to use our dead as a way to rally support and kill the living on Video while sawing off there head slowly.
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"meow meow.. why do people dump things on me head...:("
Forgive me for being ignorant, but I thought that the Geneva conventions only applied between two nations that had both adopted them.
As for my exact feelings, see Trash Kitty's comment
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Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
Forgive me for being ignorant, but I thought that the Geneva conventions only applied between two nations that had both adopted them.
Incorrect. They apply to all engagements that a party that has accepted them is involved in.
Enforcement of it by the UN tends to be non-existent when both parties haven't agreed to them however - but by the word of Geneva, you're basically making a creed to never do those things period - not just amongst those that chose to follow them.
(Part of why we tried Saddam for war crimes - pretty sure he never agreed to them)
Additionally, the Geneva Conventions apply equally to all CITIZENS of a nation not just their armed forces - Afghanistan has - anyone of Afghanistan origin by proxy is considered to have accepted them, and in a theater of war - nationality can be (and is) expected to be presumed based upon the general identity of the enemy - Taliban centered in Afghanistan are presumed to be Afghan in origin.
So yea, the "they didn't accept it" is a VERY weak argument that doesn't hold any water. These guys deserve at the least to have their uniforms stripped if not more.
This is horrendous, those people need to be pulled from service and slapped with the book.
You can't actually blame Japan for not having any much of a hand in such operations. After all, the US initially forced them to renounce all military power and had it actually written in their constitution that they couldn't raise and maintain an armed service.
They might have the ability back, but I don't blame them for holding back with what little they have.
Whenever 9/11 occurred there was talking about taking the Japanese "defense force" into Afghanistan, but was later brushed aside because of politicking by China. The Japanese defense force is a full fledged military, they also have nuclear weapons that are just in pieces that they can assemble if they choose to do so. The Japanese if pressed could change or ignore their constitution, but the threat has yet to emerge to make them want to do so.
Urinating on a corpse is a good way to make yourself a target dealing with crazies. Once identified they can become potential targets and a threat to their family. There's a reason why no one has yet to reveal the name of the person who shot OBL, and these stooges just walked in a media age asking for trouble.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
You know what's worse than young soldiers peeing on a dead guy? Forcing young soldiers to make dead guys.
Isn't that what the signed up for? Surely they would understand that enlisting while the nation is occupying a foreign country would lead to situations involving fire fights.
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Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
I'm just saying this is war. I'm more of the opinion we should go back to completely and utterly destorying our enemies in war. Seems like war wouldn't last as long. Politics are a lot easier when there's less dissenters, so if we're really going to declare our wars "reforms" we need to be completely and utterly destorying the minds, bodies, and spirits or our enemies.
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I doubt they will be charged with war crimes. they will be charged as far as the military code of conduct goes. if anything i know we do not turn our soldiers over to a foriegn court of law.
i am sure they will all get dishonorable discharges. which in and of itself is a bad thing. although the alternative is a court marshell which is even worse.
the lightest sentence they could get is a reduction in rank.
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Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around. Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
I doubt they will be charged with war crimes. they will be charged as far as the military code of conduct goes. if anything i know we do not turn our soldiers over to a foriegn court of law.
i am sure they will all get dishonorable discharges. which in and of itself is a bad thing. although the alternative is a court marshell which is even worse.
the lightest sentence they could get is a reduction in rank.
You actually don't really know what you're talking about here, in order to be dishonorably discharged one has to be court marshalled.
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As the United States, we are supposed to be better than others, we are supposed to hold ourselves to higher standards. These soldiers should be punished for what they did, yeah, fighting in a war and killing people sucks, I get that. But would if the roles were reversed, would they want their families to know that their bodies were urinated on?
I hope there is a day where the outrage is focused on people killing other people rather than what happens afterward. Only one truly matters.
Respectfully disagree, I think they both matter to a great deal. But until there is a one world government where civil rights are a matter of fact and not something being fought over, I doubt the killing will stop.
Less abstractly, I think there is a problem with having troops in another nation fighting a "war" without declaring war. It impacts their sovereignty and specifically in Afghanistan doesn't really accomplish anything which really effects positively the world's situation.
The fact that we refuse to acknowledge the Taliban as a "legitimate" party or that they won't fight war on conventional terms is part of the problem.
If you're going to run around on a regular basis claiming how you are the bestest country in the whole world and everyone needs to be just like you or they are somehow "evil" than you should expect blow back.
You also have a responsibility to lead by example if you're going to make that claim. Lowering yourself to the standards of things such as pissing on corpses or making ashtrays out of skulls makes you no better than they are.
The Taliban fights against us the way they do because they have too. Before you decry it as being "not conventional" go look at two distinct periods of American history.
The first happened circa 1770's and involved us fighting the biggest empire in the history of the world (by total mileage and population). Stand toe to toe with the British and see if we win our independence. No. We fought guerrilla tactics that were completely against the standard code of traditional and conventional fighting. That is to say...we'll stand here all organized in an open field about two hundred yards away. You do the same. Okay...fire. Reload. Fire. Reload...repeat until one of us breaks.
The same way we won the American Revolution is the same way we lost the Vietnam War (that would be the other period) and the same way we lose the war on terrorism the way we are fighting it now.
There is no "conventional" means of warfare the Taliban can adopt that defeats us other than hit and run tactics and wars of attrition and morale against the populace. You can't stand toe to toe with us at this point in regards to armed forces. No one can. Maybe the Chinese, but that's it.
You win this war through diplomacy and by proving your system is better to the people who are oppressed. Not through blunt military force. It won't work at this point anymore. Taking responsibility for your actions too and admitting you might have made some mistakes over the last sixty years.
Oh...but we can't though goes the rhetoric. America can do no wrong and makes no mistakes. Maybe that's way people hate us these days. Not because we are a shining beacon of freedom, but because we keep two battleships and an aircraft carrier parked in your harbor while we try and "reason" with you about the error of your ways.
Instead go...we do some things that might be questionable. What reparations are you looking for to be peaceful? Than decide if those requests are reasonable and legitimate by taking a good, hard, honest look at them. If they aren't that's one thing...if they are that's an entirely different matter that needs to be addressed diplomatically. That or we can keep trying to fight by conventional means and wondering why we keep having random bombs going off and killing our civilians or soldiers.
Seriously...are you going to respect a country that pisses on your dead? Why would you?
Disgusting behaviour. You'd think they'd have learned after Abbu Graib debacle, but apparently not. And before you say "it's immoral behaviour, but not a war crime": it is. Second Geneva Conventions, article 18: "After each engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the shipwrecked, wounded and sick, to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and prevent their being despoiled."
So, what kind of effect do you think this will have, both on the war itself and America's relations with other countries?
Personally, I don't understand the attachment people have to corpses. I tend not to see them as anything other than rotting flesh and, in the cases of donation, spare parts, but I understand that people do have these beliefs. I can't imagine why urinating on a corpse would be considered beyond the pale but having one riddled with shrapnel and contorted after having died in agony is considered fine. I'm far more offended by the later action.
Side note, it's time for U.S. allies to pay their "fair share" for military ventures. Europe, South Korea, Japan, etc. all of these powers get to stand around twiddling their thumbs while the U.S. does the dirty work and has to care for most of the crazies produced by the world's militarism. I don't even want a military but as long as you all won't give that up then at least pay your fair share.
@
jossbrerir, I am currently in afghanistan, stationed on a french base supporting the french military while they do all the dirty work in this section. I believe the Brits have a section and I know the Polish do as well. Each of these groups take charge of everthing in their area.
I don't know the technical definition of "warcrime" but it's pretty disturbing for sure.
Yes, I am aware of this... but it is not enough. What percentage of NATO forces are U.S. in origin? How about the U.N.? Who protects South Korea? Japan? Is the U.S. in Iceland still? Definitely still in Germany. Madness has to end.
Anyway, not a fan of the military and whatnot but you are quite brave and I do wish you the best. Can't imagine the terrible things you've seen and I'm very sorry for that. Hang in there.
You can't actually blame Japan for not having any much of a hand in such operations. After all, the US initially forced them to renounce all military power and had it actually written in their constitution that they couldn't raise and maintain an armed service.
They might have the ability back, but I don't blame them for holding back with what little they have.
It's adding insult to injury. It has nothing to do with attachment to corpses. They killed them, and pissed on them.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
I'm not going to defend torturing terrorists but this is Dijon Mustard to me in terms of ridiculousness.
EDIT: Here is something I would like to add.
Even the Taliban acknowledges the extent to the videos have been blown out of proportion.
Or that anyone critisizing these soldiers are "internet tough guys".
Or that peeing on soldiers is perfectly fine, because they're terrorists. Oh, wait, sentimentgx4 already alluded to that here.
Carry on.
On topic: whatever happened to those soldier stacking human pyramids in Gitmo?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
As for my exact feelings, see Trash Kitty's comment
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
Incorrect. They apply to all engagements that a party that has accepted them is involved in.
Enforcement of it by the UN tends to be non-existent when both parties haven't agreed to them however - but by the word of Geneva, you're basically making a creed to never do those things period - not just amongst those that chose to follow them.
(Part of why we tried Saddam for war crimes - pretty sure he never agreed to them)
Additionally, the Geneva Conventions apply equally to all CITIZENS of a nation not just their armed forces - Afghanistan has - anyone of Afghanistan origin by proxy is considered to have accepted them, and in a theater of war - nationality can be (and is) expected to be presumed based upon the general identity of the enemy - Taliban centered in Afghanistan are presumed to be Afghan in origin.
So yea, the "they didn't accept it" is a VERY weak argument that doesn't hold any water. These guys deserve at the least to have their uniforms stripped if not more.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Whenever 9/11 occurred there was talking about taking the Japanese "defense force" into Afghanistan, but was later brushed aside because of politicking by China. The Japanese defense force is a full fledged military, they also have nuclear weapons that are just in pieces that they can assemble if they choose to do so. The Japanese if pressed could change or ignore their constitution, but the threat has yet to emerge to make them want to do so.
Urinating on a corpse is a good way to make yourself a target dealing with crazies. Once identified they can become potential targets and a threat to their family. There's a reason why no one has yet to reveal the name of the person who shot OBL, and these stooges just walked in a media age asking for trouble.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Im pretty sure it was on September 11th.... like 10 years ago
How can it be a war crime if we arnt in a declared war?
You know what's worse than young soldiers peeing on a dead guy? Forcing young soldiers to make dead guys.
Isn't that what the signed up for? Surely they would understand that enlisting while the nation is occupying a foreign country would lead to situations involving fire fights.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
i am sure they will all get dishonorable discharges. which in and of itself is a bad thing. although the alternative is a court marshell which is even worse.
the lightest sentence they could get is a reduction in rank.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
You actually don't really know what you're talking about here, in order to be dishonorably discharged one has to be court marshalled.
no actually i just got the terms mixed up. they could receive and Other than honorable discharge.
that can be done in leiu of a court marshall trial.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Respectfully disagree, I think they both matter to a great deal. But until there is a one world government where civil rights are a matter of fact and not something being fought over, I doubt the killing will stop.
I see it as focusing on the wrong problem.
If you're going to run around on a regular basis claiming how you are the bestest country in the whole world and everyone needs to be just like you or they are somehow "evil" than you should expect blow back.
You also have a responsibility to lead by example if you're going to make that claim. Lowering yourself to the standards of things such as pissing on corpses or making ashtrays out of skulls makes you no better than they are.
The Taliban fights against us the way they do because they have too. Before you decry it as being "not conventional" go look at two distinct periods of American history.
The first happened circa 1770's and involved us fighting the biggest empire in the history of the world (by total mileage and population). Stand toe to toe with the British and see if we win our independence. No. We fought guerrilla tactics that were completely against the standard code of traditional and conventional fighting. That is to say...we'll stand here all organized in an open field about two hundred yards away. You do the same. Okay...fire. Reload. Fire. Reload...repeat until one of us breaks.
The same way we won the American Revolution is the same way we lost the Vietnam War (that would be the other period) and the same way we lose the war on terrorism the way we are fighting it now.
There is no "conventional" means of warfare the Taliban can adopt that defeats us other than hit and run tactics and wars of attrition and morale against the populace. You can't stand toe to toe with us at this point in regards to armed forces. No one can. Maybe the Chinese, but that's it.
You win this war through diplomacy and by proving your system is better to the people who are oppressed. Not through blunt military force. It won't work at this point anymore. Taking responsibility for your actions too and admitting you might have made some mistakes over the last sixty years.
Oh...but we can't though goes the rhetoric. America can do no wrong and makes no mistakes. Maybe that's way people hate us these days. Not because we are a shining beacon of freedom, but because we keep two battleships and an aircraft carrier parked in your harbor while we try and "reason" with you about the error of your ways.
Instead go...we do some things that might be questionable. What reparations are you looking for to be peaceful? Than decide if those requests are reasonable and legitimate by taking a good, hard, honest look at them. If they aren't that's one thing...if they are that's an entirely different matter that needs to be addressed diplomatically. That or we can keep trying to fight by conventional means and wondering why we keep having random bombs going off and killing our civilians or soldiers.
Seriously...are you going to respect a country that pisses on your dead? Why would you?