Ok so I currently have this mechanic i've been tinkering with.
Living Knowledge3U
Sorcery (C)
Draw two cards. Then put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
Incarnate 6U(If you cast this spell for 6U, put it onto the battlefield as an Elemental creature as it resolves. Whenever this deals combat damage to a player, you may cast it without paying its mana cost)
3/3
So the gameplay I want is this:
You may cast the sorcery like a normal card from your hand for 3U
You may cast it for 6U from your hand to get a 3/3 in addition to the other effect, similar to Awaken
This 3/3 if it deals damage to a player may, be used to cast the sorcery effect a 2nd time, but you would no longer have the 3/3
Is this clear?
What wording improvements can be made?
Does this break the rules? And if so how can they be rewritten to handle this?
Is this alternate wording better?
Incarnate 6U(If you cast this spell for 6U, put it onto the battlefield as an Elemental creature as it resolves. Whenever this deals combat damage to a player, you may sacrifice it to cast a copy of this spell.)
I think this would be a lot clearer as a Cipher variant. What about:
Living Knowledge3U
Sorcery {C}
Draw two cards. Then put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
Incarnate 6U(You may cast this card for its Incarnate cost. If you do, create a 3/3 Elemental creature token with this card's colors and exile it as it resolves. When that token deals combat damage to a player, you may sacrifice it to cast this card from exile without paying its mana cost.)
Wordier and less flexible, but also in my opinion a lot clearer.
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Call me Fortuna, please. Ms. Imperatrix Mundi is the empress of the world.
While it is awkward to look at there doesn't seem to be any problem with your design. It definitely needs its own unique card frame to help convey that something is different. Though it may not be obvious what is supposed to happen the rules technically support casing cards from the battlefield. This effect would be ugly expensive due to the nature of getting a body and potentially the spell again.
Overall you may be better served to have it be "Incarnate X (Manacost)" and have it be an X/X elemental. It will make it less confusing but loses the novelty of a p/t box on a spell.
Yes, this works fine in the rules. The current rules entries regarding nonpermanent objects and the battlefield only apply to instants and sorceries, not objects represented by instant and sorcery cards that don't have the instant or sorcery card type. This means that putting an instant or sorcery card with incarnate from the stack onto the battlefield this way is totally valid.
As a side note, I would reword incarnate's reminder text as "You may cast this spell for [cost]. If you do, ..." Even though awaken uses the "if you cast this spell for [cost]" templating, it doesn't conform to the way other alternative cost keyword reminder text is templated.
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
What does it do that evoke doesn't? Is it for targeting while on the stack?
The main thing it does that evoke doesn't is cast the spell twice which a pretty big thing. Also it reads better than evoke because beginner players look at the mana cost of a card first then read the card so evoke cards get overlooked because they can't be played early.
Well, evoke could still do the effect twice like this, but it just take more text space.
Living Knowledge6U Creature - Elemental
Evoke 3U(You may cast this spell for its evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it enters the battlefield.)
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, draw two cards, then put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
When CARDNAME deals combat damage to a player, you may sacrifice it. If you do, draw two cards, then put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
3/3
Anyway, the reminder text might be a little ambiguous to a lot of players. The use of "whenever" makes it sound like you can cast the spell multiple times this way, thus after casting it this way, it must become a creature again. The alternate version might be a little better because of this. Maybe?
Incarnate 6U (You may cast this spell for its incarnate cost. If you do, it becomes an Elemental creature as it resolves. When the creature deals combat damage to a player, you may recast it as a sorcery without paying its mana cost.)
Living Knowledge3U
Sorcery (C)
Draw two cards. Then put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
Incarnate 6U(If you cast this spell for 6U, put it onto the battlefield as an Elemental creature as it resolves. Whenever this deals combat damage to a player, you may cast it without paying its mana cost)
3/3
When I first saw this, my first thought was "Eh, everyone's done this." (Edit: With the p/t in the reminder text.) BUT, then I read the second part of the reminder text and thought "Damn, I wish I had thought of that part." Because it gives it a reason for being rather than just bizarro Evoke. I'm pretty desperate for my last couple of enemy color guild mechanics (particularly for Izzet), so I might have to steal this if you don't mind. (Although, it's very splashy, so maybe not.) Have you considered making the creature type "Incarnation"? I mean the mechanic is literally called Incarnate!
Have you playtested it yet? If so, I'm curious as to how it's played. Edit: Is this for Dreamscape, the followup set (it certainly fits the theme), or something altogether new?
I'm no rules guru, but it's highly grockable and seems completely sensible in light of Vehicle's (noncreature) p/t tek. The only thing I had to think about was "does it leave the battlefield and go to the stack?" The answer is "yes" because it's being cast not copied. Edit: The alternate sacrifice wording would ruin the novelty. It would just become roundabout "when you cast this or it dies."
Living Knowledge3U
Sorcery (C)
Draw two cards. Then put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
Incarnate 6U(If you cast this spell for 6U, put it onto the battlefield as an Elemental creature as it resolves. Whenever this deals combat damage to a player, you may cast it without paying its mana cost)
3/3
When I first saw this, my first thought was "Eh, everyone's done this." (Edit: With the p/t in the reminder text.) BUT, then I read the second part of the reminder text and thought "Damn, I wish I had thought of that part." Because it gives it a reason for being rather than just bizarro Evoke. I'm pretty desperate for my last couple of enemy color guild mechanics (particularly for Izzet), so I might have to steal this if you don't mind. (Although, it's very splashy, so maybe not.) Have you considered making the creature type "Incarnation"? I mean the mechanic is literally called Incarnate!
Have you playtested it yet? If so, I'm curious as to how it's played. Edit: Is this for Dreamscape, the followup set (it certainly fits the theme), or something altogether new?
I'm no rules guru, but it's highly grockable and seems completely sensible in light of Vehicle's (noncreature) p/t tek. The only thing I had to think about was "does it leave the battlefield and go to the stack?" The answer is "yes" because it's being cast not copied. Edit: The alternate sacrifice wording would ruin the novelty. It would just become roundabout "when you cast this or it dies."
I have not yet playtested this and it was developed for no particular project. I was simply thinking about how Awaken is awesome and that flashback is awesome. Could they be combined into a Living Lore style mechanic.
Well, evoke could still do the effect twice like this, but it just take more text space.
Living Knowledge6U Creature - Elemental
Evoke 3U(You may cast this spell for its evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it enters the battlefield.)
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, draw two cards, then put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
When CARDNAME deals combat damage to a player, you may sacrifice it. If you do, draw two cards, then put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
3/3
Anyway, the reminder text might be a little ambiguous to a lot of players. The use of "whenever" makes it sound like you can cast the spell multiple times this way, thus after casting it this way, it must become a creature again. The alternate version might be a little better because of this. Maybe?
Incarnate 6U (You may cast this spell for its incarnate cost. If you do, it becomes an Elemental creature as it resolves. When the creature deals combat damage to a player, you may recast it as a sorcery without paying its mana cost.)
Good catch on the "Whenever" vs "when".
Thoughts on the reminder text in the spoiler, that sacrifices to avoid confusion?
Is this clear?
What wording improvements can be made?
Does this break the rules? And if so how can they be rewritten to handle this?
Is this alternate wording better?
Incarnate 6U(If you cast this spell for 6U, put it onto the battlefield as an Elemental creature as it resolves. Whenever this deals combat damage to a player, you may sacrifice it to cast a copy of this spell.)
Whenever you copy a spell not on the stack you make the copy first then cast the copy. So to keep the copy function it would have to be, Whenever this deals combat damage to a player, you may sacrifice it, if you do copy ~, you may cast the copy without paying its mana cost.
Personally I feel this adds another layer of confusion because you have the object changing zones. I preferred the original functionality of casting from the battlefield, a unique thing that is already supported but not done.
Personally, my preferred reminder text would be as follows:
Incarnate [cost] (You may cast this for [cost] to put it onto the battlefield as an Elemental creature as it resolves. Whenever this deals combat damage to a player, you may cast it from the battlefield without paying its mana cost.)
It takes up five lines of text box space at reasonably large text sizes, and six if bigger than that. This is also true if a copy of the spell is cast from the battlefield.
I'm not as big of a fan of the "sacrifice to cast" version, mainly due to the zone change like user_938036 mentioned. The mechanic is going to have moderately high complexity to begin with, so there isn't too much of a need to increase it more.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Should this say 'cast it as a sorcery from the battlefield'?
Considering that when it's on the battlefield it has become a creature and is not a sorcery while on the battlefield?
Also, although the ability to cast a card from different zones works within the rules, casting 'from the battlefield' seems like a rules logistics nightmare.
Should this say 'cast it as a sorcery from the battlefield'?
Considering that when it's on the battlefield it has become a creature and is not a sorcery while on the battlefield?
Also, although the ability to cast a card from different zones works within the rules, casting 'from the battlefield' seems like a rules logistics nightmare.
I haven't been able to find any problems with 'cast form the battlefield', at the last judge conference(though the last one I went to was 2 years ago) we even discussed the logistics of a enchantment that let you cast creatures form the battlefield to repeatedly use etbs, there wasn't any real problem other than would people grok that the creature left and came back.
a enchantment that let you cast creatures form the battlefield to repeatedly use etbs, there wasn't any real problem other than would people grok that the creature left and came back.
But this isn't a creature. The spell type is Sorcery, it becomes a Creature through an alternate cost. So if you were to 'cast' the spell again, it's a Sorcery and not a creature.
a enchantment that let you cast creatures form the battlefield to repeatedly use etbs, there wasn't any real problem other than would people grok that the creature left and came back.
But this isn't a creature. The spell type is Sorcery, it becomes a Creature through an alternate cost. So if you were to 'cast' the spell again, it's a Sorcery and not a creature.
There was no problem(admittedly some confusion though) with bestow creatures being creatures in your hands but not when you cast them as an aura.
There was no problem(admittedly some confusion though) with bestow creatures being creatures in your hands but not when you cast them as an aura.
Bestow says what it becomes if it's no longer an Aura. (If you cast this card for its bestow cost, it's an Aura spell with enchant creature. It becomes a creature again if it's not attached to a creature.)
This doesn't say that it becomes a Sorcery again when you cast it from the battlefield. It's still a creature and all the rules of it being a creature apply to it.
It either needs to say that you cast it 'as a sorcery' or perhaps even exile it and cast it without paying it's mana cost. It needs to stop being a creature for it to become a sorcery again. I think there just needs to be wording making it obvious that you're casting it as a Sorcery and not a Creature.
There was no problem(admittedly some confusion though) with bestow creatures being creatures in your hands but not when you cast them as an aura.
Bestow says what it becomes if it's no longer an Aura. (If you cast this card for its bestow cost, it's an Aura spell with enchant creature. It becomes a creature again if it's not attached to a creature.)
This doesn't say that it becomes a Sorcery again when you cast it from the battlefield. It's still a creature and all the rules of it being a creature apply to it.
It either needs to say that you cast it 'as a sorcery' or perhaps even exile it and cast it without paying it's mana cost. It needs to stop being a creature for it to become a sorcery again. I think there just needs to be wording making it obvious that you're casting it as a Sorcery and not a Creature.
The reason bestow needed to say it became a creature again after being an aura was because the rules put auras into the graveyard if they aren't attached and they didn't want that. For Incarnate there is no such problem, by changing zones the animation effect of the incarnate ability stops functioning so it is only what is printed on it, a sorcery. Reminder text might be helpful to make this obvious but it isn't 'needed'.
Living Knowledge 3U
Sorcery (C)
Draw two cards. Then put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
Incarnate 6U (If you cast this spell for 6U, put it onto the battlefield as an Elemental creature as it resolves. Whenever this deals combat damage to a player, you may cast it without paying its mana cost)
3/3
So the gameplay I want is this:
Is this clear?
What wording improvements can be made?
Does this break the rules? And if so how can they be rewritten to handle this?
Is this alternate wording better?
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Living Knowledge 3U
Sorcery {C}
Draw two cards. Then put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
Incarnate 6U (You may cast this card for its Incarnate cost. If you do, create a 3/3 Elemental creature token with this card's colors and exile it as it resolves. When that token deals combat damage to a player, you may sacrifice it to cast this card from exile without paying its mana cost.)
Wordier and less flexible, but also in my opinion a lot clearer.
Overall you may be better served to have it be "Incarnate X (Manacost)" and have it be an X/X elemental. It will make it less confusing but loses the novelty of a p/t box on a spell.
As a side note, I would reword incarnate's reminder text as "You may cast this spell for [cost]. If you do, ..." Even though awaken uses the "if you cast this spell for [cost]" templating, it doesn't conform to the way other alternative cost keyword reminder text is templated.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Living Knowledge 6U
Creature - Elemental
Evoke 3U (You may cast this spell for its evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it enters the battlefield.)
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, draw two cards, then put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
When CARDNAME deals combat damage to a player, you may sacrifice it. If you do, draw two cards, then put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
3/3
Anyway, the reminder text might be a little ambiguous to a lot of players. The use of "whenever" makes it sound like you can cast the spell multiple times this way, thus after casting it this way, it must become a creature again. The alternate version might be a little better because of this. Maybe?
Incarnate 6U (You may cast this spell for its incarnate cost. If you do, it becomes an Elemental creature as it resolves. When the creature deals combat damage to a player, you may recast it as a sorcery without paying its mana cost.)
When I first saw this, my first thought was "Eh, everyone's done this." (Edit: With the p/t in the reminder text.) BUT, then I read the second part of the reminder text and thought "Damn, I wish I had thought of that part." Because it gives it a reason for being rather than just bizarro Evoke. I'm pretty desperate for my last couple of enemy color guild mechanics (particularly for Izzet), so I might have to steal this if you don't mind. (Although, it's very splashy, so maybe not.) Have you considered making the creature type "Incarnation"? I mean the mechanic is literally called Incarnate!
Have you playtested it yet? If so, I'm curious as to how it's played. Edit: Is this for Dreamscape, the followup set (it certainly fits the theme), or something altogether new?
I'm no rules guru, but it's highly grockable and seems completely sensible in light of Vehicle's (noncreature) p/t tek. The only thing I had to think about was "does it leave the battlefield and go to the stack?" The answer is "yes" because it's being cast not copied. Edit: The alternate sacrifice wording would ruin the novelty. It would just become roundabout "when you cast this or it dies."
I have not yet playtested this and it was developed for no particular project. I was simply thinking about how Awaken is awesome and that flashback is awesome. Could they be combined into a Living Lore style mechanic.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Good catch on the "Whenever" vs "when".
Thoughts on the reminder text in the spoiler, that sacrifices to avoid confusion?
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Whenever you copy a spell not on the stack you make the copy first then cast the copy. So to keep the copy function it would have to be, Whenever this deals combat damage to a player, you may sacrifice it, if you do copy ~, you may cast the copy without paying its mana cost.
Personally I feel this adds another layer of confusion because you have the object changing zones. I preferred the original functionality of casting from the battlefield, a unique thing that is already supported but not done.
Incarnate [cost] (You may cast this for [cost] to put it onto the battlefield as an Elemental creature as it resolves. Whenever this deals combat damage to a player, you may cast it from the battlefield without paying its mana cost.)
It takes up five lines of text box space at reasonably large text sizes, and six if bigger than that. This is also true if a copy of the spell is cast from the battlefield.
I'm not as big of a fan of the "sacrifice to cast" version, mainly due to the zone change like user_938036 mentioned. The mechanic is going to have moderately high complexity to begin with, so there isn't too much of a need to increase it more.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Considering that when it's on the battlefield it has become a creature and is not a sorcery while on the battlefield?
Also, although the ability to cast a card from different zones works within the rules, casting 'from the battlefield' seems like a rules logistics nightmare.
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
But this isn't a creature. The spell type is Sorcery, it becomes a Creature through an alternate cost. So if you were to 'cast' the spell again, it's a Sorcery and not a creature.
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
Bestow says what it becomes if it's no longer an Aura. (If you cast this card for its bestow cost, it's an Aura spell with enchant creature. It becomes a creature again if it's not attached to a creature.)
This doesn't say that it becomes a Sorcery again when you cast it from the battlefield. It's still a creature and all the rules of it being a creature apply to it.
It either needs to say that you cast it 'as a sorcery' or perhaps even exile it and cast it without paying it's mana cost. It needs to stop being a creature for it to become a sorcery again. I think there just needs to be wording making it obvious that you're casting it as a Sorcery and not a Creature.
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
An alternative to the sacrifice version could be to tack "If you do, exile it as it resolves." onto the end of the ability.