Not to criticise you personally, but I don't think the problem is just with the voters. It seems what happens with a lot of poll stages is you guys give the options, then in the voting thread people say "option N is best but the following changes would improve it", and then option N wins but no time is really allotted to carrying out any changes.
This is also assuredly true. I wasn't trying to point fingers at voters by any means, just responding to the issue of votes not matching posts. We're working out how to run editing rounds, but if we do host edits then its hard to move forward since we can't make everyone happy. Doing extensive edits also opens up the possibility for favoritism, even if unintentional, to play a role. I'd like to encourage revisions and heftier critiquing during submission rounds to alleviate this issue instead. It didn't happen very effectively for Thag'zul, but its a lesson we'll bring with us moving forward.
Ultimately, remember that YMTC's creations can be used as a jumping-off point to create your own designs... which could be much more cohesive than the cards we come up with.
I think it may also have to do with the complexity of the card. Walkers are hard to design even when everyone does agree, so designing a walker and creature at the same time probably didn't help.
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This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
y'all are dumb. sorry, that's harsh, but true. The token making ability here makes this guy busted as all get out, and the Armaggedon he might do would make him a total BOSS & HOUSE if there were any way to get more Loyalty on him. Like say with Doubling Season, Proliferate, or a bunch of other non-Standard stuff.
He's 'safe' and even 'underwhelming' for Standard, provided they don't accidentally make Counters easy to put on him, but let me break down that middle ability for you:
You're getting a 3/3 token. That's an impressive body, on a repeatable effect, and it's not costing you anything except loyalty. Better in some ways than Koth's creature ability, b/c it doesn't cost you land or risk your land if it dies.
You also get to fight a creature. That adds the potential for this to be a Doom Blade every turn. WITHOUT the token, that'd be worth an ability all by itself 'Target creature fights target creature' or something. I think one of the Garruks even HAS that. If your creature dies fighting, you are still getting +1 card advantage because it cost no cards to activate the ability. If your creature lives you are getting +2 because it kills their creature and leaves you with a creature.
I'd windmill this guy so hard into Red-White Boros. The White will let me pump him up into a heavy power range with a couple cheap enchantments, and I'll also happen to be running Ajani for tokens so that just works out nicely. Then I will see about loading the deck with Double Strike effects.
I intend to use colorless sources (artifacts and lands) to multiply his counters. Sure, dealing that much damage with his creature form might seem like transforming him could end up being 'win-more'. Well, I want to win more, and maybe this is what a Planeswalker designed specifically for multiplayer looks like- might accidentally kill someone on the way to sparking, but then you've got a lean mean machine for making a monster.
I know you think this guy's balanced, but he's not.
There are some other issues regarding the spark triggering at the end step...that looks odd to me too. Should be automatic 'once or nothing' thing, with some kind of cost you get the chance to pay or something.
Just trust me on this one: This guy is way, way, way insane in EDH, possibly breakable in Modern, because you thought that making him all - abilities meant it's fine to give him 3 ultimates and not worry if they're repeatable because he's not 'supposed' to gain loyalty.
Check out Sarkhan the Mad. That's what a Planeswalker that doesn't gain loyalty should look like- he should have 0 ability that is sometimes relevant, a small minus, and a big minus. All abilities need to be carefully thought out so that getting to repeat them is just about as powerful as the cost of doing so is supposed to be.
Nicol Bolas, Jace TMS, and Karn have huge impact ultimates that you should probably not play twice in one game, and if you do any survivors will conceed. But it takes A LOT of effort to make them work and build up to them. This guy's Armageddon costs less than any of their Ultimates, so it's that much easier for him to spam it if he transforms with the right permanents out.
And it really takes very, very little effort to make that -3 disgusting.
Of course, all Walker abilities should be powerful in their own way, but I don't think that 'needs to be powerful' means 'neglect balance of game'. The -3 really is amazingly powerful when you think about it, and the only reason you overlooked it is because you think he's never going to make more than 2 tokens.
I think I might even forget about the Armageddon ability, but of course if I wanted to go through extra hoops, having a non-land way of pumping creatures while blowing up lands seems dumb.
This guy isn't spikey, but just because he's non-spikey doesn't mean he's balanced. The Armageddon might cost just enough opportunity/tempo/resources to be fine, but I am telling you: That -3 ability is too much value, too undercosted, with not enough consequences being considered. He might otherwise need a lot of support cards to make 'work', but the potential for that ability to be a blowout makes the deck worth forcing.
I am probably every color-combination it is possible to be, though it's really hard to figure out what it would mean to be 4-colored....it doesn't seem logical to be 4-colored without being 5-colored.
I had actually designed a flip card before DFC's came out that was a legendary creature turned planeswalker, then after DFC's changed him to a DFC. I gotta say, this one isn't very appealing as the Vorthos in the first reply already stated with his spark not igniting upon certain conditions met, etc. Mine actually leveled up on one side, then transformed into a 'walker, as it felt right that way, and the leveling up was something that triggered upon specific conditions, not by paying a cost. The biggest problem I felt was that it was possible to have the legendary creature side and the planeswalker side out at the same time, which broke flavor for me. But the fact that you couldn't choose when to transform him made it a little more balanced, whereas with this guy, you could potentially have both out for as long as you want, and then just transform the legend when the 'walker burns itself out.
I love this design. The only criticism I agree with is the transform should occur at the end of combat instead of at the end of turn. Other than that, major kudos. Very creative, very flavorful, very well-designed.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
There is currently a slight problem with the Walker's second ability:
Despite the 'may', you still need a target for the fight clause. So if there are 0 creatures on the field, you can't make a token. Don't know if this is intended or not. It should be "may fight up to one target creature".
There are all kinds of problems with this card. Another horrible design. I am glad that none of you actually work at WOTC. It seems the people here are too busy trying to make cards that would never see the light of day.
I don't care for DFCs whatsoever, but I find the idea of a DFC with a pre-spark side and post-spark version intriguing. Most PWs weren't always PWs, right? Their sparks don't ignite until they are older. Then, they can traverse the multiverse.
I like the idea, it's not like this hasn't been done before with varying success, i.e. kamigawa block flip legendary cards. However coming from an EDH perspective, this card is ridiculous in the right situation, due to the wording "At the beginning of each end step, you may transform Thag'zul. if you do, put X loyalty counters on it where X is the total damage dealt to opponents this turn."
Just to find the easiest ways to break him off the top of my head, I would run him in an izzet deck. Any cunning sparkmage effect + mind over matter at the end of my opponents turn, flash in Thag'zul via leyline, EOT he transforms with infinite loyalty counters. If you wanna be really douche you could run add black and remove some counters with hex parasite and still have enough to use his -x to overwhelm the opponents.
Imo, make him at 5cmc, the combat damage that he alone does gives him loyalty counters. That way you're encompassing red's sort of I-do-things-for-me mentality, trample haste and 1R: Firebreathing and have him change at the end of combat so he could use his -3 to kill stragglers or create mana denial.
(+) Creature turning into a planeswalker
I really like the concept.
Specially, with creatures that have been printed that eventually
had their spark lit.
e.g. Venser
(-) i mean he's a planebreaker hes a walker that should make a great impact
after transforming at the same time he's so volitile that he could end up
ending himself and using up all his loyalty counters
thus i just think he should just go out with a bang!
since red goes to that characteristic
the 1st skill can use up his loyalty counter for a lethal strike (good)
the 3rd skill can destroy lands (so-so)
-X remove all loyalty counters, remove all lands and artifacts from the
game (something to this effect)
the 2nd skill is a bit underwhelming when thinking that
this walker goes out with a bang concept i hope it goes something like
-X Deal X/2 damage to target player.
Another thing, wouldn't you be able to have 2 copies of this guy in play at the same time? 1 flipped, 1 non-flip? That seems very strange.
Ugh, so sick of this argument. <whine> "Karn can't be a be a planeswalker, then you could have Karn, Silver Golem and Karn Liberated out at the same time. That's not flavorful." </w>
D:<
Damnit, y'know what's flavorful? Frickin' TIME TRAVEL. Y'know what's pervaded Magic since the aftermath of the Brothers' War? TIME TRAVEL! Y'know what solves the question of how you can have a planeswalker and their legendary creature form out at the same time? GAMEPLAY AND STORY SEGREGATION! But also time travel.
The Magic card game should not just be a verbatim transposing of the storyline and it's "flavor." Make your own damned story. Justify your breaks from strict adherence to the lore. Don't just play, CREATE.
The main thing I don't like is that you actually choose when he becomes a planeswalker. Flavor-wise we know this is not the case. Maybe it could be a mandatory or random effect?
If he were something like "Thag'zul the Absorber" and his ability was, "Any damage dealt to a non-player Planeswalker in combat by ~ adds a loyalty counter to ~. At the end of combat, if a Planeswalker damaged by ~ this turn is destroyed, transform ~."
Something along those lines. That would be pretty cool.
This is also assuredly true. I wasn't trying to point fingers at voters by any means, just responding to the issue of votes not matching posts. We're working out how to run editing rounds, but if we do host edits then its hard to move forward since we can't make everyone happy. Doing extensive edits also opens up the possibility for favoritism, even if unintentional, to play a role. I'd like to encourage revisions and heftier critiquing during submission rounds to alleviate this issue instead. It didn't happen very effectively for Thag'zul, but its a lesson we'll bring with us moving forward.
Ultimately, remember that YMTC's creations can be used as a jumping-off point to create your own designs... which could be much more cohesive than the cards we come up with.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
He's 'safe' and even 'underwhelming' for Standard, provided they don't accidentally make Counters easy to put on him, but let me break down that middle ability for you:
You're getting a 3/3 token. That's an impressive body, on a repeatable effect, and it's not costing you anything except loyalty. Better in some ways than Koth's creature ability, b/c it doesn't cost you land or risk your land if it dies.
You also get to fight a creature. That adds the potential for this to be a Doom Blade every turn. WITHOUT the token, that'd be worth an ability all by itself 'Target creature fights target creature' or something. I think one of the Garruks even HAS that. If your creature dies fighting, you are still getting +1 card advantage because it cost no cards to activate the ability. If your creature lives you are getting +2 because it kills their creature and leaves you with a creature.
I'd windmill this guy so hard into Red-White Boros. The White will let me pump him up into a heavy power range with a couple cheap enchantments, and I'll also happen to be running Ajani for tokens so that just works out nicely. Then I will see about loading the deck with Double Strike effects.
I intend to use colorless sources (artifacts and lands) to multiply his counters. Sure, dealing that much damage with his creature form might seem like transforming him could end up being 'win-more'. Well, I want to win more, and maybe this is what a Planeswalker designed specifically for multiplayer looks like- might accidentally kill someone on the way to sparking, but then you've got a lean mean machine for making a monster.
I know you think this guy's balanced, but he's not.
There are some other issues regarding the spark triggering at the end step...that looks odd to me too. Should be automatic 'once or nothing' thing, with some kind of cost you get the chance to pay or something.
Just trust me on this one: This guy is way, way, way insane in EDH, possibly breakable in Modern, because you thought that making him all - abilities meant it's fine to give him 3 ultimates and not worry if they're repeatable because he's not 'supposed' to gain loyalty.
Check out Sarkhan the Mad. That's what a Planeswalker that doesn't gain loyalty should look like- he should have 0 ability that is sometimes relevant, a small minus, and a big minus. All abilities need to be carefully thought out so that getting to repeat them is just about as powerful as the cost of doing so is supposed to be.
Nicol Bolas, Jace TMS, and Karn have huge impact ultimates that you should probably not play twice in one game, and if you do any survivors will conceed. But it takes A LOT of effort to make them work and build up to them. This guy's Armageddon costs less than any of their Ultimates, so it's that much easier for him to spam it if he transforms with the right permanents out.
And it really takes very, very little effort to make that -3 disgusting.
Of course, all Walker abilities should be powerful in their own way, but I don't think that 'needs to be powerful' means 'neglect balance of game'. The -3 really is amazingly powerful when you think about it, and the only reason you overlooked it is because you think he's never going to make more than 2 tokens.
I think I might even forget about the Armageddon ability, but of course if I wanted to go through extra hoops, having a non-land way of pumping creatures while blowing up lands seems dumb.
This guy isn't spikey, but just because he's non-spikey doesn't mean he's balanced. The Armageddon might cost just enough opportunity/tempo/resources to be fine, but I am telling you: That -3 ability is too much value, too undercosted, with not enough consequences being considered. He might otherwise need a lot of support cards to make 'work', but the potential for that ability to be a blowout makes the deck worth forcing.
People need to read this fanfiction, though:
www.hpmor.com
I am probably every color-combination it is possible to be, though it's really hard to figure out what it would mean to be 4-colored....it doesn't seem logical to be 4-colored without being 5-colored.
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Despite the 'may', you still need a target for the fight clause. So if there are 0 creatures on the field, you can't make a token. Don't know if this is intended or not. It should be "may fight up to one target creature".
Just to find the easiest ways to break him off the top of my head, I would run him in an izzet deck. Any cunning sparkmage effect + mind over matter at the end of my opponents turn, flash in Thag'zul via leyline, EOT he transforms with infinite loyalty counters. If you wanna be really douche you could run add black and remove some counters with hex parasite and still have enough to use his -x to overwhelm the opponents.
Imo, make him at 5cmc, the combat damage that he alone does gives him loyalty counters. That way you're encompassing red's sort of I-do-things-for-me mentality, trample haste and 1R: Firebreathing and have him change at the end of combat so he could use his -3 to kill stragglers or create mana denial.
Thanks to PurpleD from Left Play Designs for the banner:D
I really like the concept.
Specially, with creatures that have been printed that eventually
had their spark lit.
e.g. Venser
(-) i mean he's a planebreaker hes a walker that should make a great impact
after transforming at the same time he's so volitile that he could end up
ending himself and using up all his loyalty counters
thus i just think he should just go out with a bang!
since red goes to that characteristic
the 1st skill can use up his loyalty counter for a lethal strike (good)
the 3rd skill can destroy lands (so-so)
-X remove all loyalty counters, remove all lands and artifacts from the
game (something to this effect)
the 2nd skill is a bit underwhelming when thinking that
this walker goes out with a bang concept i hope it goes something like
-X Deal X/2 damage to target player.
Ugh, so sick of this argument. <whine> "Karn can't be a be a planeswalker, then you could have Karn, Silver Golem and Karn Liberated out at the same time. That's not flavorful." </w>
D:<
Damnit, y'know what's flavorful? Frickin' TIME TRAVEL. Y'know what's pervaded Magic since the aftermath of the Brothers' War? TIME TRAVEL! Y'know what solves the question of how you can have a planeswalker and their legendary creature form out at the same time? GAMEPLAY AND STORY SEGREGATION! But also time travel.
The Magic card game should not just be a verbatim transposing of the storyline and it's "flavor." Make your own damned story. Justify your breaks from strict adherence to the lore. Don't just play, CREATE.
I have come to spread the gospel of Cockatrice, the best free source for online play.
------------
In Phyrexia, Black will do anything to be broken in Vintage.
Something along those lines. That would be pretty cool.