Index X (Look at the top X cards of your library, then put them back on top of your library in any order.)
Basically Scry v2.0. Unlike scry however, Index X does not send cards to the bottom but send them only on top. Also because of this, Index X cannot have a value of 1. This inability to get "free virtual draws" allow higher Index numbers to bee easily put.
No Free Draw - For example in a monoblack mirror, Doom Blade probably sucks. Scry lets you chug that to the bottom, getting a "Virtual Draw". Index cannot do this, you will eventually draw that "dead card".
Dig Deep - In order for it to function, Index X requires an X value of more than 1. 3 is a very "Staple-able".
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MtG is where you can hate white players or black players, and still not be racist.
1. I like the name.
2. As much as I hate Scry's turning into an action word rather than a keyword (as it was on the first set of cards), the ability to put the cards on the bottom are what make it useful. Index-effects just aren't good.
Also note that Scry 1 is useful, while Index 1 is practically useless.
Note: I'd be very happy with stopping scry from being evergreen (although the mulligan rules sort of make this hard...). But I don't think you want/need a replacement like this. But the game-reason why Scry is so beloved just is because it lets you control your land/non-land ratio to some useful extent.
I think this is a poor mechanic to have much of in a set because it decreases surprise/tension in large numbers and does little to impact the game in smaller numbers. What if you Index 4 and they're all lands--scoop, or play a game where you know your draws are going to be dead?
I think this is a poor mechanic to have much of in a set because it decreases surprise/tension in large numbers and does little to impact the game in smaller numbers. What if you Index 4 and they're all lands--scoop, or play a game where you know your draws are going to be dead?
Not necessarily, Index becomes much more powerful with shuffle effects.
I think this is a poor mechanic to have much of in a set because it decreases surprise/tension in large numbers and does little to impact the game in smaller numbers. What if you Index 4 and they're all lands--scoop, or play a game where you know your draws are going to be dead?
Not necessarily, Index becomes much more powerful with shuffle effects.
Also mill effects, but at that point, we are just talking about a 'build your own scry' ability. Serves the same gameplay function but in a dramatically more clunky way.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Thia I was thinking of using for my [BMS] BIG Mana Spells set. You seein BIG Mana Spells, all commons are 4CMC+ limited bombs and the uncommons and rares are "helpers" that help you achirve a state of bomb spewing. Thus this Index ability allows the rearranging for lands, helpers and bombs. You could set up your next 3 or 4 draws so they are drawn in a more feel-good manner.
Its just that Scry is too powerful to be used at a number higher than 1. Scrying 2 almost is more powerful than draw 1 and index 3 or 4 is definitely not worth a draw (nobody plays Index.) However Index 3 or 4 arranges it so that you get the uncommon and rare "helper" before the 4CMC+ bombs or arranges it so that the 3CMC from card comes before the land if I already have 3 lands for turn 3.
Think Scenario. I have Forest and Mountain in play. I have a 3rd land in hand but no 3CMC. An Index effect could allow me to rearrange that. Drae that 3 CMC first, folliwed by a land (so the land and the 3CMC arrive just in time)
The aim here was to generate more "feel good" moments. With Index 3, you will draw the same three cards but in a "feel good" order. Also Scry has this feel bad moment where you send that 4CMC flying 3/3 because you only have three lands. So scry 1 or 2 will cause that fatty to the bottom, and later you draw lands lands helpers in a row, and your like "I shouldnt have bottomed".
I really hope I explained it right. In BMS, theres just a larger than usual curve, thats why rearranging has higher than usual impact and scry would be feel bad. Also, I repeat Scry 2+ is just soo powerful, and scry 1 would not help "rearrange" at all.
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MtG is where you can hate white players or black players, and still not be racist.
the uncommons and rares are "helpers" that help you achieve a state of bomb spewing.
Apart from ramp, what are you referring to here? I'm honestly curious.
Index really doesn't work unless you have shuffle effects, so lets just work a shuffle effect into the ability. Here is some proposed reminder text which includes the update and is a bit more concise....
Index X (Look at and rearrange the top X cards of your library. You may shuffle your library.)
...It would suck to have a bunch of shuffle effects in limited, but if its what you need, well whatever...
EDIT: I guarantee that Index as a mechanic will play worse than scry even if you use outrageously high index numbers. Just do some mental playtesting. Imagine you and your opponent are in a match and you are both in top deck mode. You find an index 5 effect and move a couple spells to the top. A couple turns later, you are now looking at a more or less even board and know for a fact that you are going to draw three useless lands. Does this sound fun or desirable to you?
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
By helper I mean the Uncommons and Rares get to be 3CMC and lower. These low cost spells are (rarer) than the Common Limited Bombs. Example is a 3cmc create two tokens. These tokens can chump fatties later, apply some pressure but most importantly they help channel convoke which is what I havr now as the cost reduction mechanic for GW. The set is still very early in the thinking phase. I am still figuring out which cycle of mechanics can play nicely with it.
I get what you say with shuffle. But I think if I do staple the shuffle/get rid of the bad cards to Index, I just put it on a separate line. Adding a ponderish effect would beat the purpose of it being "staple-able". Adds too much power, but if not every Index card has it, ie the ones that need the shuffle can place it on a separate line. I agree, I will think about tacking shuffle or self mill effects now, but on separate line.
About feeling bad about the dead draws, I dont feel that bad I guess. Because I can reason that I drew the cards I like first, and it was overall better than drawing what I didnt like first. But I gues what would feel bad would be knowing they would suck, but then again they would have suck even if I did not index. Also with scry 1 or 2, we often "I shouldve topped that" or "bottomed that" because with such small amount of scry we basically "guess" which is the correct move. Index does not do that, because what you would do can only be better (or same) but you will not "made the wrong move".
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MtG is where you can hate white players or black players, and still not be racist.
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Basically Scry v2.0. Unlike scry however, Index X does not send cards to the bottom but send them only on top. Also because of this, Index X cannot have a value of 1. This inability to get "free virtual draws" allow higher Index numbers to bee easily put.
No Free Draw - For example in a monoblack mirror, Doom Blade probably sucks. Scry lets you chug that to the bottom, getting a "Virtual Draw". Index cannot do this, you will eventually draw that "dead card".
Dig Deep - In order for it to function, Index X requires an X value of more than 1. 3 is a very "Staple-able".
2. As much as I hate Scry's turning into an action word rather than a keyword (as it was on the first set of cards), the ability to put the cards on the bottom are what make it useful. Index-effects just aren't good.
Also note that Scry 1 is useful, while Index 1 is practically useless.
Note: I'd be very happy with stopping scry from being evergreen (although the mulligan rules sort of make this hard...). But I don't think you want/need a replacement like this. But the game-reason why Scry is so beloved just is because it lets you control your land/non-land ratio to some useful extent.
I was thinking of using it for my BIG Mana Spells
Did you have some designs in mind with Index? I would be curious to see what you had in mind.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Not necessarily, Index becomes much more powerful with shuffle effects.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Also mill effects, but at that point, we are just talking about a 'build your own scry' ability. Serves the same gameplay function but in a dramatically more clunky way.
- Manite
Its just that Scry is too powerful to be used at a number higher than 1. Scrying 2 almost is more powerful than draw 1 and index 3 or 4 is definitely not worth a draw (nobody plays Index.) However Index 3 or 4 arranges it so that you get the uncommon and rare "helper" before the 4CMC+ bombs or arranges it so that the 3CMC from card comes before the land if I already have 3 lands for turn 3.
Think Scenario. I have Forest and Mountain in play. I have a 3rd land in hand but no 3CMC. An Index effect could allow me to rearrange that. Drae that 3 CMC first, folliwed by a land (so the land and the 3CMC arrive just in time)
The aim here was to generate more "feel good" moments. With Index 3, you will draw the same three cards but in a "feel good" order. Also Scry has this feel bad moment where you send that 4CMC flying 3/3 because you only have three lands. So scry 1 or 2 will cause that fatty to the bottom, and later you draw lands lands helpers in a row, and your like "I shouldnt have bottomed".
I really hope I explained it right. In BMS, theres just a larger than usual curve, thats why rearranging has higher than usual impact and scry would be feel bad. Also, I repeat Scry 2+ is just soo powerful, and scry 1 would not help "rearrange" at all.
Apart from ramp, what are you referring to here? I'm honestly curious.
Index really doesn't work unless you have shuffle effects, so lets just work a shuffle effect into the ability. Here is some proposed reminder text which includes the update and is a bit more concise....
Index X (Look at and rearrange the top X cards of your library. You may shuffle your library.)
...It would suck to have a bunch of shuffle effects in limited, but if its what you need, well whatever...
EDIT: I guarantee that Index as a mechanic will play worse than scry even if you use outrageously high index numbers. Just do some mental playtesting. Imagine you and your opponent are in a match and you are both in top deck mode. You find an index 5 effect and move a couple spells to the top. A couple turns later, you are now looking at a more or less even board and know for a fact that you are going to draw three useless lands. Does this sound fun or desirable to you?
- Manite
I get what you say with shuffle. But I think if I do staple the shuffle/get rid of the bad cards to Index, I just put it on a separate line. Adding a ponderish effect would beat the purpose of it being "staple-able". Adds too much power, but if not every Index card has it, ie the ones that need the shuffle can place it on a separate line. I agree, I will think about tacking shuffle or self mill effects now, but on separate line.
About feeling bad about the dead draws, I dont feel that bad I guess. Because I can reason that I drew the cards I like first, and it was overall better than drawing what I didnt like first. But I gues what would feel bad would be knowing they would suck, but then again they would have suck even if I did not index. Also with scry 1 or 2, we often "I shouldve topped that" or "bottomed that" because with such small amount of scry we basically "guess" which is the correct move. Index does not do that, because what you would do can only be better (or same) but you will not "made the wrong move".