Its also worth noting that Seething Song is banned in modern. Ritual of chaos seems safer by comparison. Its slower being strictly limited to turn 4 and later, and doesn't have synergy with baral/goblin electromancer
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Seething Song is banned in modern? Come on Wizards... think before you ban. I want Dragonstorm. Why do you like Death's Shadow and Marvel and other jank decks over Dragonstorm?
Looking at the results of games, turn-three wins are frequent for Storm, contrary to the DCI's stated goals for the format. The DCI looked for a card that was very important to the turn-three wins but not one of the cards that make this deck unique. We decided Seething Song is the best choice. Even with no other mana acceleration, one can cast Seething Song on turn three and it gives a net acceleration of +2 mana. While there are other options for fast mana, none appear as efficient and reliable on turn three as Seething Song.
It sounds like they didn't want to nuke any of the real power cards like Past in Flames. Regardless, Ritual of Chaos specifically avoids the turn 3 kill, which is what they were worried about.
To say that Wizards had a goal for "modern" is nonsense. That's like me buying a library and saying "When I was assembling this collection of books, I purposely wanted to stack them on shelves, and that's why I've banned [book x] because it doesn't fit in the shelves neatly." Modern wasn't an intentional format, it was accidental.
Now if Wizards doesn't want turn 3 wins... maybe they should print cards that stop combo. If only there was some kind of counterspell to counter spells or healing salve to gain life or Gaea's Blessing to shuffle cards from your graveyard to your library...
Banning sucks. Poor design sucks more. Given that 90% of the cards published this year won't be used in any format, you'd think Wizards could seed cards that could deal with Storm. And Dredge. And indestructible 20/20s on turn 4. (Or, you know, stop printing these mistakes... hint hint).
Anyways, regarding this card... is the idea that it's "fair" because it specifically allows storm to win on turn 4, as opposed to turn 3? Might as well just errata Seething Song to cost 3R or errata Storm to count only the even numbered spells (You might laugh, but given what they've done with the legendary rule...). If Wizards wants to refrain from printing [mechanic x] because it interferes with their design plans... fine. But if you don't want to print birds of paradise anymore, please don't print a rare mana tapper for 1G. And no one can seriously say that birds of paradise is broken.
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue exactly, but I was just saying that the thing that got Seething Song (which I don't think is OP) banned in modern would not apply to this card.
It is also worth mentioning that this card is a lot easier to play in a deck like storm where you have a lot of blue deck manipulators - seething song requires you to convert the mana via manamorphose or have blue left over which is somewhat significant and I think offsets the time drawaback. It's also great against Remand.
True, but it wouldn't apply to this card because it was designed exactly to avoid that issue. The funny thing is that Seething Song was supposed to do the exact same thing for Dark Ritual - move it from an "unfair" turn 1 play to a "fair" turn 3 play. Now they've just decided that turn 3 is too early. Thus the card should be
Turn 4 Ritual3R
Sorcery (U)
Add RRRRRR to your mana pool.
Note the difference in text length and complexity. All this spell does is explore the same "one turn later" drawback in a clunky way that circumvents normal costing for "the same effect." Contrast this with serra avenger, which gives you 2WW (arguably) worth of creature for WW... with a rather unique drawback.
True, but it wouldn't apply to this card because it was designed exactly to avoid that issue. The funny thing is that Seething Song was supposed to do the exact same thing for Dark Ritual - move it from an "unfair" turn 1 play to a "fair" turn 3 play. Now they've just decided that turn 3 is too early. Thus the card should be
Turn 4 Ritual3R
Sorcery (U)
Add RRRRRR to your mana pool.
Note the difference in text length and complexity. All this spell does is explore the same "one turn later" drawback in a clunky way that circumvents normal costing for "the same effect." Contrast this with serra avenger, which gives you 2WW (arguably) worth of creature for WW... with a rather unique drawback.
Except it doesn't...turn 2 goblin/baral turn 3 manamorph into this ... assuming no land drop that gives you 6 mana to your pool off the 1 card...seems bonkers no?
Uh... it gives you +2 mana. Your spell gives +2 mana.
Yes, my spell can be used on a turn before turn 4 if you generate more mana somehow - AKA, like almostevery spell in magic.
Either Wizards wants rituals, or they don't. If your contention is that they're afraid of rituals "only before turn 4", I think you place a bit too much substance on what they say, as opposed to what they do (and what they don't do).
It's clever design. And if you wanted to keyword it (please don't), or do something different to be different... well, then we're still talking about if you can safely print a ritual (Even if you can, wizards probably doesn't want you to).
And yes - we all know that the card is "not technically the same"; but it's practically the same in pretty much every respect. We know when it's different. My point, SneakyTodd's point, etc, etc. is that the difference is not worth it. It's clunky. It's a ritual. The former's less-than-ideal design; the latter is just waiting to be broken.
Sure they both net 2 mana in a vacuum but with storm decks they tend to not "go off" without the baral/goblin reducer in play. So my spell is 1 for 3 whereas your spell would be 3 for 6 or possibly 2 for 6 if they have 2 in play.
Given the example of turn 2 Goblin Electromancer turn 3 your spell (net 3 mana) it spirals out of control quick. My spell can't be used until turn 4 regards of the set up. So yes yours is busted when in combination of any reducer.
What makes the spell clunky? Remembering what turn it is?
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Ritual of Chaos R
Instant -
You can't cast Ritual of Chaos during the first, second, or third turn of the game.
Add RRR to your mana pool.
Seething Song 2R
Sorcery-
Add RRRRR to your mana pool.
- Manite
Looking at the results of games, turn-three wins are frequent for Storm, contrary to the DCI's stated goals for the format. The DCI looked for a card that was very important to the turn-three wins but not one of the cards that make this deck unique. We decided Seething Song is the best choice. Even with no other mana acceleration, one can cast Seething Song on turn three and it gives a net acceleration of +2 mana. While there are other options for fast mana, none appear as efficient and reliable on turn three as Seething Song.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/january-28-2013-dci-banned-restricted-list-announcement-2013-01-28
It sounds like they didn't want to nuke any of the real power cards like Past in Flames. Regardless, Ritual of Chaos specifically avoids the turn 3 kill, which is what they were worried about.
Now if Wizards doesn't want turn 3 wins... maybe they should print cards that stop combo. If only there was some kind of counterspell to counter spells or healing salve to gain life or Gaea's Blessing to shuffle cards from your graveyard to your library...
Banning sucks. Poor design sucks more. Given that 90% of the cards published this year won't be used in any format, you'd think Wizards could seed cards that could deal with Storm. And Dredge. And indestructible 20/20s on turn 4. (Or, you know, stop printing these mistakes... hint hint).
Anyways, regarding this card... is the idea that it's "fair" because it specifically allows storm to win on turn 4, as opposed to turn 3? Might as well just errata Seething Song to cost 3R or errata Storm to count only the even numbered spells (You might laugh, but given what they've done with the legendary rule...). If Wizards wants to refrain from printing [mechanic x] because it interferes with their design plans... fine. But if you don't want to print birds of paradise anymore, please don't print a rare mana tapper for 1G. And no one can seriously say that birds of paradise is broken.
It is also worth mentioning that this card is a lot easier to play in a deck like storm where you have a lot of blue deck manipulators - seething song requires you to convert the mana via manamorphose or have blue left over which is somewhat significant and I think offsets the time drawaback. It's also great against Remand.
Turn 4 Ritual 3R
Sorcery (U)
Add RRRRRR to your mana pool.
Note the difference in text length and complexity. All this spell does is explore the same "one turn later" drawback in a clunky way that circumvents normal costing for "the same effect." Contrast this with serra avenger, which gives you 2WW (arguably) worth of creature for WW... with a rather unique drawback.
Except it doesn't...turn 2 goblin/baral turn 3 manamorph into this ... assuming no land drop that gives you 6 mana to your pool off the 1 card...seems bonkers no?
Yes, my spell can be used on a turn before turn 4 if you generate more mana somehow - AKA, like almost every spell in magic.
Either Wizards wants rituals, or they don't. If your contention is that they're afraid of rituals "only before turn 4", I think you place a bit too much substance on what they say, as opposed to what they do (and what they don't do).
It's clever design. And if you wanted to keyword it (please don't), or do something different to be different... well, then we're still talking about if you can safely print a ritual (Even if you can, wizards probably doesn't want you to).
And yes - we all know that the card is "not technically the same"; but it's practically the same in pretty much every respect. We know when it's different. My point, SneakyTodd's point, etc, etc. is that the difference is not worth it. It's clunky. It's a ritual. The former's less-than-ideal design; the latter is just waiting to be broken.
Given the example of turn 2 Goblin Electromancer turn 3 your spell (net 3 mana) it spirals out of control quick. My spell can't be used until turn 4 regards of the set up. So yes yours is busted when in combination of any reducer.
What makes the spell clunky? Remembering what turn it is?