I'm trying to think of a land mechanic that encourages the player to play tons and tons of lands in their deck (and want to actually play them, not just use them for cascading or whatever). I think the best way to do this is to let the player play a certain type of land for "free" (i.e. get a second land drop) but have the land be much worse than a basic.
This is my first reasonable attempt that doesn't just look like a mox:
Remote Desert
Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield.) T: Add C to your mana pool. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.
Remote Ridge
Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped. T: Add R to your mana pool. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step. 1R, T: ~ deals 1 damage to target creature. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.
Remote Eddy
Land - Expanse (U)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped. T: Add U to your mana pool. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step. 4U, T: Draw a card. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.
Remote Citadel
Land - Expanse (R)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped. T: Add C to your mana pool. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step. 1, T: Untap target land. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.
Could this work? Are there improvements you would make to this mechanic, or are there other mechanics that could achieve a similar effect?
Remember, in draft you can have a LOT of these things. Even if they don't untap every turn, that's an insane amount of acceleration.
Remote ridge is unacceptable at common. Being able to deal 1 damage repeatedly is no joke (especially when you can draft several of them), and it's too complex.
Remote eddy is too complex for an uncommon. Seriously, it has 4 lines of unrelated abilities. And frankly I think it's a bit too powerful.
It can work, but your sample cards (except for citadel) all need to be bumped in rarity. Having them as common accelerates limited games too much. while you uncommons are overbalanced (ie too many things tacked on in order to try to make them balanced) and are still too powerful besides.
Definitely, but it shouldn't be card advantage or a direct way to win the game. There are lots of effects that fall into this range. Target creature +x/+x maybe scale-able, tapping creatures, locking down permanents, granting keywords, scrying. All of those are possible inclusions. Also single use abilities such as additional ETB abilities, or sacrifice abilities. You just so happened to pick two of the most unacceptable abilities to put on repeated use lands.
That said, to clean up the text I would add the basic land types to them and the ability "Whenever you activate an ability on ~, ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step." This takes up less space and allows you to cut the text from the extra abilities, while being a safety valve for granted abilities like Chromatic Lantern and Prismatic Omen. Or maybe role that text into the Trek ability. Make the Trek ability more encompassing, Trek(~ enters the battlefield tapped. When you play this land you may put a card with Trek from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever you activate an ability on ~, ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.) That might be too much but if you role in either the freeze or etbt then it should clean the cards up more.
Since you are able to "play" these Expanses more quickly than normal lands, I do not this it is inappropriate to make the lower rarity ones require a sacrifice for any additional effects, in the vein of the Blighted lands from OGW.
Entering tapped and not untapping seems a bit excessive. Sticking with just not untapping (to differentiate from the many lands that etb tapped) as a general theme seems like a good direction to take.
And while yes, some of those are high mana, if you're dropping two lands a turn that's still turn 3/4 plays.
Of course, most of those could also easily be mana dorks.
Untapping one and untapping all are so radically different it's absurd to say they are the same. There is normally something to untap one permanent, as you showed. There is rarely something to untap all permanents(nonland is more common).
And while yes, some of those are high mana, if you're dropping two lands a turn that's still turn 3/4 plays.
Of course, most of those could also easily be mana dorks.
Literally ALL of those examples are in a totally different tier from Prophet of Kruphix, not even comparable imo. I thought you were talking about things like Seedborn Muse, Awakening, Nature's Will, Bear Umbra, and Reset. I don't foresee being able to untap them one at a time with cards like Voyaging Satyr to be a problem at all.
Based on all of your advice, I'd like the ability to be:
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
A possible problem with this is that it's ambiguous if the "doesn't untap" clause would apply to a land that comes into play tapped (my intent is that it would untap on your first untap step, but I don't think that's 100% clear). The slightly safer way to go is: "Whenever you activate an ability on ~, ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step," as user_938036 suggested. I also don't think I want to give these basic land types, because I still want to have cards that tap for colorless, and also I think functionally that makes a land more complicated because you suddenly start caring about weird interactions. I don't think tap for color is a barrier to understanding.
Something I'm still trying to figure out is if there's any way I can make a common one of these lands that still does something other than produce mana. Some attempts:
Remote Caldera
Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped. T: Add R to your mana pool. 1R, T, Sacrifice ~: ~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Remote Crag
Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped. T: Add R to your mana pool. R, T, Sacrifice ~: Target creature can't block this turn.
Remote Spring
Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
When ~ enters the battlefield, scry 1. T: Add U to your mana pool.
Regarding the Seedborn Muse effect, I'm pretty torn. I think Seedborn Muse specifically would be extremely powerful, because it would essentially triple the effect of the lands. Early Harvest is probably even worse because you basically get the same effect as Early Harvest/Heartbeat of Spring. Although when that combo was in standard it wasn't too broken. I guess it's a question of if there's something to use all your mana on, and if it's clunkier to play Heartbeat or to dedicate a ton of deckslots to lands. I think this also encourages the sac effects idea, because it prevents getting degenerate combos just from your lands. I don't think it's necessary as long as you don't have the combination of mass untap and enough degenerate draw mechanics to fuel a combo.
I'm actually envisioning this mechanic in a land based set that will have a lot of 1 time untap land effects (such as 3U sorcery, draw 2 cards, untap a land). I think this has a pretty similar effect on an Expanse as it would on a normal land, as long as the tap effects are worth the same or less than a normal land's untap. One thing I worry about is that BlackTempleGaurdian's fix is pretty tough to understand - it sort of sounds like it can't untap until you get to your next untap step, but then it untaps immediately.
Another thing I was thinking about is making these lands that have abilities that cause them to get bounced. The main problem with this is that bouncing is almost less of a drawback than tapping for these lands. Not sure if these are a good addition or not
Remote Waterfall
Land - Expanse (R)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped. T: Add U to your mana pool. 2U, T, Return ~ to it's owner's hand: Return target creature to it's owner's hand.
Remote Caldera is very strong for a common, maybe not too strong but very strong. To try and keep complexity in check you may want to consider restricting the commons to either dual lands or ETB effects, uncommons to sac effects, and rares/mythics to repeated use effects. Not a definitive rule to stand by but a basic guide post to start with and see how they go.
The number of cards that, without additional help, untap all of your lands is so small that it shouldn't be a deterrent for this effect. Even the combo you sited doesn't work because Early Harvest only untaps basics.
Removing the mana abilities would allow for the activation costs of these lands to be cheaper and serve a more utility purpose. An example of a pure utility land is Maze of Ith.
Remote Spring Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped. U, T: Scry 1.
Then you could follow it up with creatures that expands the mechanic more. Like one that gives it an ability to tap for mana or perform color fixing, another that allows your expanses to come into play untapped, a third which gets benefits equal to the number of expanses you control, a fourth could be an inverse of the previous idea and have drawbacks or an ability that gives an enemy creature a debuff.
Remote Spring
Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
U, T: Scry 1.
This? Absolutely not, unless you make it a legendary mythic, and remove the trek ability, and it's flavor ties into the set.
I read the article, its only in violation of rule #2 in that it doesn't create mana. I personally disagree with MaRo's antiquated design philosphy from fourteen years ago on the matter of the second rule because it cuts out actual creativity in order to have a more uniform approach to the land cards being designed because of an honestly bizarre fear that it would be too much like an artifact or enchantment. When what comes out that same year, months after that post? Artifact lands.
I want to entertain you and others with a bit of a thought experiment. Did you even read what you actually typed? As you are saying that this:
Remote Spring
Legendary Land (MR)
~ enters the battlefield tapped. U, T: Scry 1.
Is how it should be designed according to your instructions if you removed the Trek ability, slapped on legendary and bumped it up needlessly to mythic rare. In what sane world would this ever see the light of day as an official card?
Not only does it not provide mana resoruces to your pool, not only does it require a second land/mana dork/mana rock to use, not only is it 1:4 possible mythics in your booster box, not only does it come into play tapped but its also a legendary meaning you can only have one out at a time.
What a newbie draft trap card that would end up being. It would be one of the worst feelbad cards to crack from a pack as instead of a planeswalker or strong creature as your bomb, you cracked this land instead. Its monetary value alone would be dollar bin on the day it was spoiled from a leak or the mothership. It would create vitriol on the forums because of how terrible it rightfully was.
I read the article, its only in violation of rule #2 in that it doesn't create mana. I personally disagree with MaRo's antiquated design philosphy from fourteen years ago on the matter of the second rule because it cuts out actual creativity in order to have a more uniform approach to the land cards being designed because of an honestly bizarre fear that it would be too much like an artifact or enchantment. When what comes out that same year, months after that post? Artifact lands.
I want to entertain you and others with a bit of a thought experiment. Did you even read what you actually typed? As you are saying that this:
Remote Spring
Legendary Land (MR)
~ enters the battlefield tapped. U, T: Scry 1.
Is how it should be designed according to your instructions if you removed the Trek ability, slapped on legendary and bumped it up needlessly to mythic rare. In what sane world would this ever see the light of day as an official card?
Not only does it not provide mana resoruces to your pool, not only does it require a second land/mana dork/mana rock to use, not only is it 1:4 possible mythics in your booster box, not only does it come into play tapped but its also a legendary meaning you can only have one out at a time.
What a newbie draft trap card that would end up being. It would be one of the worst feelbad cards to crack from a pack as instead of a planeswalker or strong creature as your bomb, you cracked this land instead. Its monetary value alone would be dollar bin on the day it was spoiled from a leak or the mothership. It would create vitriol on the forums because of how terrible it rightfully was.
Good points. As I honestly can't see it being printed with those drawbacks. At best it would be a really janky card that would more likely end up as a coaster for someones drink.
The number of cards that, without additional help, untap all of your lands is so small that it shouldn't be a deterrent for this effect. Even the combo you sited doesn't work because Early Harvest only untaps basics.
Oh yeah I guess I should actually read the cards I remember from 10 years ago. In my mind Heartbeat was the card with the basic restriction.
About lands that don't tap for mana:
You are allowed to occasionally break your rules. I actually thought about this when I was first trying to flesh out the mechanic and didn't think it was the right time to break this rule:
-If any lands can tap for mana, you still have to balance them as though a player will only use expanse for the mana. Therefore you still need the 1 ability per 2 turns effect.
-If a player wants to make an expanse deck where they have some mana producers and some expanse lands that do something different, they could get the exact same effects by just playing a regular land and a spell that does the non-mana effect they wanted anyway, and not have to deal with drawing the right cards and having their land only activate half of their turns. Mana manipulation and possibly combo cards like Seedborn Muse to get a degenerate mana engine I think is the main payoff to filling your deck with these strange lands.
-This effect is already stretching the definition of lands. I don't think the right time to break a rock solid mtg rule is to fix a mechanic that already bends the rules. If that's the only way to make it work (which I don't think it is) the mechanic just shouldn't be used either way.
I have been thinking a lot about sticking Trek on a creature, whether or not there are manaless expanses. I think I like it, and it's actually interesting if the creature still has the drawback that it skips an untap step when it attacks. I think you could really get some wackiness with creatures that accelerate your mana and area also statted fairly well. One issue is that the lands have to trigger on being played, so that means that the Trek ability on a creature is uncounterable. Another fairly minor issue is that if a creature has Trek, the best way to play it is as a blocker, which is the opposite of trekking.
A simple idea for a trek creature:
Aven Explorer 2U
Creature - Bird Wizard (U)
Trek (When you play this permanent, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this permanentbecomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
Flying
3/3
You could also avoid all the weirdness by unkeywording the creature effect:
Aven Journeyman 2U
Creature - Bird Wizard (U)
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield.
Flying
2/1
This is my first reasonable attempt that doesn't just look like a mox:
Remote Desert
Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield.)
T: Add C to your mana pool. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.
Remote Ridge
Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add R to your mana pool. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.
1R, T: ~ deals 1 damage to target creature. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.
Remote Eddy
Land - Expanse (U)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add U to your mana pool. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.
4U, T: Draw a card. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.
Remote Citadel
Land - Expanse (R)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add C to your mana pool. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.
1, T: Untap target land. ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.
Could this work? Are there improvements you would make to this mechanic, or are there other mechanics that could achieve a similar effect?
Remote ridge is unacceptable at common. Being able to deal 1 damage repeatedly is no joke (especially when you can draft several of them), and it's too complex.
Remote eddy is too complex for an uncommon. Seriously, it has 4 lines of unrelated abilities. And frankly I think it's a bit too powerful.
It can work, but your sample cards (except for citadel) all need to be bumped in rarity. Having them as common accelerates limited games too much. while you uncommons are overbalanced (ie too many things tacked on in order to try to make them balanced) and are still too powerful besides.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
That said, to clean up the text I would add the basic land types to them and the ability "Whenever you activate an ability on ~, ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step." This takes up less space and allows you to cut the text from the extra abilities, while being a safety valve for granted abilities like Chromatic Lantern and Prismatic Omen. Or maybe role that text into the Trek ability. Make the Trek ability more encompassing, Trek(~ enters the battlefield tapped. When you play this land you may put a card with Trek from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever you activate an ability on ~, ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step.) That might be too much but if you role in either the freeze or etbt then it should clean the cards up more.
Entering tapped and not untapping seems a bit excessive. Sticking with just not untapping (to differentiate from the many lands that etb tapped) as a general theme seems like a good direction to take.
Ehh, that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Such effects are rare enough that it's probably okay to let that combo happen.
Literally ALL of those examples are in a totally different tier from Prophet of Kruphix, not even comparable imo. I thought you were talking about things like Seedborn Muse, Awakening, Nature's Will, Bear Umbra, and Reset. I don't foresee being able to untap them one at a time with cards like Voyaging Satyr to be a problem at all.
Based on all of your advice, I'd like the ability to be:
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
A possible problem with this is that it's ambiguous if the "doesn't untap" clause would apply to a land that comes into play tapped (my intent is that it would untap on your first untap step, but I don't think that's 100% clear). The slightly safer way to go is: "Whenever you activate an ability on ~, ~ doesn't untap during your next untap step," as user_938036 suggested. I also don't think I want to give these basic land types, because I still want to have cards that tap for colorless, and also I think functionally that makes a land more complicated because you suddenly start caring about weird interactions. I don't think tap for color is a barrier to understanding.
Something I'm still trying to figure out is if there's any way I can make a common one of these lands that still does something other than produce mana. Some attempts:
Remote Caldera
Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add R to your mana pool.
1R, T, Sacrifice ~: ~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Remote Crag
Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add R to your mana pool.
R, T, Sacrifice ~: Target creature can't block this turn.
Remote Spring
Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
When ~ enters the battlefield, scry 1.
T: Add U to your mana pool.
Regarding the Seedborn Muse effect, I'm pretty torn. I think Seedborn Muse specifically would be extremely powerful, because it would essentially triple the effect of the lands. Early Harvest is probably even worse because you basically get the same effect as Early Harvest/Heartbeat of Spring. Although when that combo was in standard it wasn't too broken. I guess it's a question of if there's something to use all your mana on, and if it's clunkier to play Heartbeat or to dedicate a ton of deckslots to lands. I think this also encourages the sac effects idea, because it prevents getting degenerate combos just from your lands. I don't think it's necessary as long as you don't have the combination of mass untap and enough degenerate draw mechanics to fuel a combo.
I'm actually envisioning this mechanic in a land based set that will have a lot of 1 time untap land effects (such as 3U sorcery, draw 2 cards, untap a land). I think this has a pretty similar effect on an Expanse as it would on a normal land, as long as the tap effects are worth the same or less than a normal land's untap. One thing I worry about is that BlackTempleGaurdian's fix is pretty tough to understand - it sort of sounds like it can't untap until you get to your next untap step, but then it untaps immediately.
Another thing I was thinking about is making these lands that have abilities that cause them to get bounced. The main problem with this is that bouncing is almost less of a drawback than tapping for these lands. Not sure if these are a good addition or not
Remote Waterfall
Land - Expanse (R)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add U to your mana pool.
2U, T, Return ~ to it's owner's hand: Return target creature to it's owner's hand.
The number of cards that, without additional help, untap all of your lands is so small that it shouldn't be a deterrent for this effect. Even the combo you sited doesn't work because Early Harvest only untaps basics.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Remote Spring
Land - Expanse (C)
Trek (When you play this land, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this land becomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
U, T: Scry 1.
Then you could follow it up with creatures that expands the mechanic more. Like one that gives it an ability to tap for mana or perform color fixing, another that allows your expanses to come into play untapped, a third which gets benefits equal to the number of expanses you control, a fourth could be an inverse of the previous idea and have drawbacks or an ability that gives an enemy creature a debuff.
No. Not for a keyworded effect. Maybe once, in a legendary land/mythic land that defines a set or simething equally approproiately rare.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/land-my-land-2003-03-31
See #2.
This? Absolutely not, unless you make it a legendary mythic, and remove the trek ability, and it's flavor ties into the set.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I want to entertain you and others with a bit of a thought experiment. Did you even read what you actually typed? As you are saying that this:
Legendary Land (MR)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
U, T: Scry 1.
Is how it should be designed according to your instructions if you removed the Trek ability, slapped on legendary and bumped it up needlessly to mythic rare. In what sane world would this ever see the light of day as an official card?
Not only does it not provide mana resoruces to your pool, not only does it require a second land/mana dork/mana rock to use, not only is it 1:4 possible mythics in your booster box, not only does it come into play tapped but its also a legendary meaning you can only have one out at a time.
What a newbie draft trap card that would end up being. It would be one of the worst feelbad cards to crack from a pack as instead of a planeswalker or strong creature as your bomb, you cracked this land instead. Its monetary value alone would be dollar bin on the day it was spoiled from a leak or the mothership. It would create vitriol on the forums because of how terrible it rightfully was.
About lands that don't tap for mana:
You are allowed to occasionally break your rules. I actually thought about this when I was first trying to flesh out the mechanic and didn't think it was the right time to break this rule:
-If any lands can tap for mana, you still have to balance them as though a player will only use expanse for the mana. Therefore you still need the 1 ability per 2 turns effect.
-If a player wants to make an expanse deck where they have some mana producers and some expanse lands that do something different, they could get the exact same effects by just playing a regular land and a spell that does the non-mana effect they wanted anyway, and not have to deal with drawing the right cards and having their land only activate half of their turns. Mana manipulation and possibly combo cards like Seedborn Muse to get a degenerate mana engine I think is the main payoff to filling your deck with these strange lands.
-This effect is already stretching the definition of lands. I don't think the right time to break a rock solid mtg rule is to fix a mechanic that already bends the rules. If that's the only way to make it work (which I don't think it is) the mechanic just shouldn't be used either way.
I have been thinking a lot about sticking Trek on a creature, whether or not there are manaless expanses. I think I like it, and it's actually interesting if the creature still has the drawback that it skips an untap step when it attacks. I think you could really get some wackiness with creatures that accelerate your mana and area also statted fairly well. One issue is that the lands have to trigger on being played, so that means that the Trek ability on a creature is uncounterable. Another fairly minor issue is that if a creature has Trek, the best way to play it is as a blocker, which is the opposite of trekking.
A simple idea for a trek creature:
Aven Explorer 2U
Creature - Bird Wizard (U)
Trek (When you play this permanent, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield. Whenever this permanentbecomes tapped, it doesn't untap during it's controller's next untap step.)
Flying
3/3
You could also avoid all the weirdness by unkeywording the creature effect:
Aven Journeyman 2U
Creature - Bird Wizard (U)
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may put an Expanse land card from your hand onto the battlefield.
Flying
2/1