"Stun (Whenever this creature deals damage to another creature, tap that creature and it doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)"
Okay, so first thoughts are obviously "Wait, but 'freezing' isn't red!" And currently, that's correct. Red has never been allowed to tap a creature and keep it from untapping for a turn.
However, red has recently started to get that effect specifically for lands as a way to temporarily slow a player down. I believe that the same philosophy- using a temporary solution to deal with larger threats in leu of a permanent one -can be applied to red's combat behavior. It comes off as short-sighted, which is red's core downside, while giving red a way to push through creatures it can't kill (like walls with high toughness) in the longer game. I think this could be a good way to expand red's color pie a bit.
Obviously, red already has direct damage to deal with creatures, but I've always had a problem with it dealing large amounts of damage to kill a large creature, because then it feels like a murder effect instead. With this effect in red's toolkit, it could stick to small amounts of direct damage that can be used to kill small creatures and stun effects to help push through big creatures.
Flavor-wise, it can be flavored similarly to that of Enthralling Victor or something like that. That is, appealing to the emotions of a creature to make them hesitate for a turn. It can also just be something simple like hitting something really hard in the head to daze them.
As for blue, it's well known that blue is allowed to "freeze" creatures, and I feel that tying that to creature damage will encourage more combat interaction for blue.
I thought of this while trying to think of a good replacement for prowess, and here's why:
Prowess has a few problems that I feel prevent it from being as flexible a keyword as, say, first strike.
The first is that it's a build-around mechanic. This wouldn't be a bad thing if you were talking about a block-exclusive mechanic to help build a particular draft archetype, like how prowess started. The issue is that it encourages a spell-heavy playstyle, whereas something like first-strike, haste, deathtouch, etc. are all pretty modular. You don't need to be in a specific archetype to use those keywords to their max potential, but prowess requires a generally higher volume of noncreatures to really take advantage of, making it more limiting.
Secondly, the word "Prowess" is vague and nonspecific as to what it actually does. This means that you'll almost always have to explain what it does to a newer player or have them memorize the reminder text. Other keywords don't really have this problem, as they're pretty self-explanatory. Even "menace" and "scry", which aren't readily apparent as to what they do, have flavor thats easy to latch onto when you've read the reminder text. "Prowess" doesn't even have that. "Stun" is much better and much easier to guess at.
The third problem is that prowess should've gone the way of "unblockable" and just been left without a keyword because there are so many possible variants of it. Having the keyword is actually more limiting to design than it is encouraging. Even KTK's use of prowess was coupled with dozens of other "whenever you cast a noncreature spell" effects that made me wonder why they didn't just make it an ability word instead.
There are other issues that I personally have with prowess, but they're generally less important, so I'll skip those. The point is that prowess is a cool mechanic, but I think Stun has more to offer as an evergreen keyword.
I think "tapdown" is still a bit of a bleed in red outside of using it on lands, and this suffers from a major problem at evergreen: the likelihood that everyone will perceive it as "worse deathtouch".
FrostTouch isn't exactly a new mechanic and has been discussed to death in basically all of its variants in the UB Evergreen Keyword Thread.
If you ignore the fact that its a color pie bleed, the mechanic still has the simple problem in that it doesn't play very well. In order for this mechanic to work, you need to be willing to block an opponents attacking creature that would survive the combat, or you need to be attacking into your opponent when they have a creature that could block and survive the combat. Neither of these things happen all that often. Usually, when creatures get into combat with each other, both die. The only significant exception is when one or both players are in chump block mode. In addition, the keyword has minor memory issues.
tldr: FrostTouch doesn't matter often enough to play well as a mechanic.
EDIT: Did some quick searches through gatherer for precedent. A stun variant was first seen in Scourge on Mercurial Kite. It was later used as a green non-keyworded mechanic for kamigawa block. It hasn't appeared since. I believe it hasn't appeared because of the problem with the mechanic that I outlined above.
EDIT EDIT: If you are dead set on pushing forward with some version of the mechanic, I'd recommend disconnecting the damage and the tap ability. Something akin to...
Stun (Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, up to one target creature doesn't untap during its controllers next untap step.)
This ability is noticeably more complex though, requiring the use of targeting, and a lot less flavorful.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Stun Shaman (Common) 2R
Creature - Human Shaman
2/1
When Stun Shaman enters the battlefield, you may stun target creature. (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Stun Faerie (Common) 2U
Creature - Faerie
2/1
When Stun Faerie dies, you may stun target creature. (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Stun Monk (Common) UR
Creature - Human Monk
1/3
Whenever Stun Monk blocks a creature, you may stun that creature. (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Stun (Common) U
Instant
Stun target creature. (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Draw a card.
I think this would play very differently than deathtouch. (I really like Stun Monk! haha. Feels very Jeskai.)
Stun Shaman (Common) 2R
Creature - Human Shaman
2/1
When Stun Shaman enters the battlefield, you may stun target creature. (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Stun Faerie (Common) 2U
Creature - Faerie
2/1
When Stun Faerie dies, you may stun target creature. (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Stun Monk (Common) UR
Creature - Human Monk
1/3
Whenever Stun Monk blocks a creature, you may stun that creature. (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Stun (Common) U
Instant
Stun target creature. (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Draw a card.
I think this would play very differently than deathtouch. (I really like Stun Monk! haha. Feels very Jeskai.)
EDIT: Too bad this can't be UB... or can it...?
I like the direction you're going in, but only preventing a creature from untapping doesn't do much unless the creature's already tapped. It should also tap the creature, but that can be a little overpowered outside of combat, which is why I limited it to a damage trigger. It forces the creature to participate in combat to get the effect.
@harlannowick: Do you think it would be better if it was a block/blocked trigger rather than damage?
Pretty sure this should read: Stun(Whenever this creature deals damage to a creature, tap that creature. It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
If it deals damage to itself - all the worse for it.
And this should not be evergreen; the memory issues are quite annoying. Depletion counters existed for a reason, and if you haven't encountered confusion about what creatures are exerted and which aren't... lucky you.
@harlannowick: Do you think it would be better if it was a block/blocked trigger rather than damage?
You mean something like...
Stun V1.5 (Whenever this creature blocks or is blocked by a creature, that creature doesn't untap during its controllers next untap step.)
... I think v1.5 and v1 share the same fundamental problems. The mechanic doesn't do anything in typical games on typical creatures. Creatures usually don't survive blocking or being blocked. The only significant exception is in the case of chump blocking. If all your mechanic accomplishes is making chump blocking slightly better, it isn't doing enough.
How about an action keyword:
Stun (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Is this something we actually want to use often? In any case, this is a fairly strange keyword action as its reliant on context to determine meaning. For example, the following card makes no sense, where an equivalent version using scry makes perfect sense...
Simple Stun U
Instant
Stun
Simple scry U
Instant
Scry 1
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Stun (Whenever this creature deals damage to another creature, tap that creature and it doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
I wouldn't do it like that, because it could start getting too oppressive when you slap Power Of Fire or [[Chandra's Ignition]] effects on said creatures (mentioned power of fire can enable permanent tapping by just simply pinging a creature each time on an opponent's turn)
Stun (Whenever this creature deals damage to another creature, tap that creature and it doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
I wouldn't do it like that, because it could start getting too oppressive when you slap Power Of Fire or [[Chandra's Ignition]] effects on said creatures (mentioned power of fire can enable permanent tapping by just simply pinging a creature each time on an opponent's turn)
And Power of Fire on a deathtoucher is way more efficient. This isn't a concern; people are allowed to make combos.
I like the direction you're going in, but only preventing a creature from untapping doesn't do much unless the creature's already tapped. It should also tap the creature
I always though you should have two different terms, but then you are able to write it like "Tap and exhaust target creature."
Some might argue that it would be better to make tapping part of the keyword action, but there are two benefits:
a) clarity even if you use no reminder text for exhaust about whether a creature gets tapped
b) you can have effects like "Exhaust all creatures target player controls" which would just make them skip untapping for one untap step, but leaves untapped blockers unaffected.
(btw, I prefer exhaust to stun because it is more neutral to the card types it affects; I don't stun lands - another option would be deplete)
---
The OP-suggested "worse deathtouch" variant is a so-so mechanic. It makes sense to put it into colors that don't already get deathtouch. white-blue is a natural fit for tap-down mechanics. Stunning has been used in red-white gold cards at least once. I'm a fan of giving red tap-down effects or similar as long as they specifically work to overcome blockers it couldn'T otherwise remove (e. g. high toughness) and that's exactly where this shines, so I wouldn't mind giving this a spin.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Okay, so first thoughts are obviously "Wait, but 'freezing' isn't red!" And currently, that's correct. Red has never been allowed to tap a creature and keep it from untapping for a turn.
However, red has recently started to get that effect specifically for lands as a way to temporarily slow a player down. I believe that the same philosophy- using a temporary solution to deal with larger threats in leu of a permanent one -can be applied to red's combat behavior. It comes off as short-sighted, which is red's core downside, while giving red a way to push through creatures it can't kill (like walls with high toughness) in the longer game. I think this could be a good way to expand red's color pie a bit.
Obviously, red already has direct damage to deal with creatures, but I've always had a problem with it dealing large amounts of damage to kill a large creature, because then it feels like a murder effect instead. With this effect in red's toolkit, it could stick to small amounts of direct damage that can be used to kill small creatures and stun effects to help push through big creatures.
Flavor-wise, it can be flavored similarly to that of Enthralling Victor or something like that. That is, appealing to the emotions of a creature to make them hesitate for a turn. It can also just be something simple like hitting something really hard in the head to daze them.
As for blue, it's well known that blue is allowed to "freeze" creatures, and I feel that tying that to creature damage will encourage more combat interaction for blue.
I thought of this while trying to think of a good replacement for prowess, and here's why:
Prowess has a few problems that I feel prevent it from being as flexible a keyword as, say, first strike.
The first is that it's a build-around mechanic. This wouldn't be a bad thing if you were talking about a block-exclusive mechanic to help build a particular draft archetype, like how prowess started. The issue is that it encourages a spell-heavy playstyle, whereas something like first-strike, haste, deathtouch, etc. are all pretty modular. You don't need to be in a specific archetype to use those keywords to their max potential, but prowess requires a generally higher volume of noncreatures to really take advantage of, making it more limiting.
Secondly, the word "Prowess" is vague and nonspecific as to what it actually does. This means that you'll almost always have to explain what it does to a newer player or have them memorize the reminder text. Other keywords don't really have this problem, as they're pretty self-explanatory. Even "menace" and "scry", which aren't readily apparent as to what they do, have flavor thats easy to latch onto when you've read the reminder text. "Prowess" doesn't even have that. "Stun" is much better and much easier to guess at.
The third problem is that prowess should've gone the way of "unblockable" and just been left without a keyword because there are so many possible variants of it. Having the keyword is actually more limiting to design than it is encouraging. Even KTK's use of prowess was coupled with dozens of other "whenever you cast a noncreature spell" effects that made me wonder why they didn't just make it an ability word instead.
There are other issues that I personally have with prowess, but they're generally less important, so I'll skip those. The point is that prowess is a cool mechanic, but I think Stun has more to offer as an evergreen keyword.
Anyway, what do yall think. Am I crazy?
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
If you ignore the fact that its a color pie bleed, the mechanic still has the simple problem in that it doesn't play very well. In order for this mechanic to work, you need to be willing to block an opponents attacking creature that would survive the combat, or you need to be attacking into your opponent when they have a creature that could block and survive the combat. Neither of these things happen all that often. Usually, when creatures get into combat with each other, both die. The only significant exception is when one or both players are in chump block mode. In addition, the keyword has minor memory issues.
tldr: FrostTouch doesn't matter often enough to play well as a mechanic.
EDIT: Did some quick searches through gatherer for precedent. A stun variant was first seen in Scourge on Mercurial Kite. It was later used as a green non-keyworded mechanic for kamigawa block. It hasn't appeared since. I believe it hasn't appeared because of the problem with the mechanic that I outlined above.
EDIT EDIT: If you are dead set on pushing forward with some version of the mechanic, I'd recommend disconnecting the damage and the tap ability. Something akin to...
Stun (Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, up to one target creature doesn't untap during its controllers next untap step.)
This ability is noticeably more complex though, requiring the use of targeting, and a lot less flavorful.
- Manite
Stun Shaman (Common)
2R
Creature - Human Shaman
2/1
When Stun Shaman enters the battlefield, you may stun target creature. (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Stun Faerie (Common)
2U
Creature - Faerie
2/1
When Stun Faerie dies, you may stun target creature. (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Stun Monk (Common)
UR
Creature - Human Monk
1/3
Whenever Stun Monk blocks a creature, you may stun that creature. (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Stun (Common)
U
Instant
Stun target creature. (It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Draw a card.
I think this would play very differently than deathtouch. (I really like Stun Monk! haha. Feels very Jeskai.)
EDIT: Too bad this can't be UB... or can it...?
@harlannowick: Do you think it would be better if it was a block/blocked trigger rather than damage?
Stun (Whenever this creature deals damage to a creature, tap that creature. It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
If it deals damage to itself - all the worse for it.
And this should not be evergreen; the memory issues are quite annoying. Depletion counters existed for a reason, and if you haven't encountered confusion about what creatures are exerted and which aren't... lucky you.
You mean something like...
Stun V1.5 (Whenever this creature blocks or is blocked by a creature, that creature doesn't untap during its controllers next untap step.)
... I think v1.5 and v1 share the same fundamental problems. The mechanic doesn't do anything in typical games on typical creatures. Creatures usually don't survive blocking or being blocked. The only significant exception is in the case of chump blocking. If all your mechanic accomplishes is making chump blocking slightly better, it isn't doing enough.
Is this something we actually want to use often? In any case, this is a fairly strange keyword action as its reliant on context to determine meaning. For example, the following card makes no sense, where an equivalent version using scry makes perfect sense...
Simple Stun U
Instant
Stun
Simple scry U
Instant
Scry 1
- Manite
I wouldn't do it like that, because it could start getting too oppressive when you slap Power Of Fire or [[Chandra's Ignition]] effects on said creatures (mentioned power of fire can enable permanent tapping by just simply pinging a creature each time on an opponent's turn)
And Power of Fire on a deathtoucher is way more efficient. This isn't a concern; people are allowed to make combos.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
I always though you should have two different terms, but then you are able to write it like "Tap and exhaust target creature."
Some might argue that it would be better to make tapping part of the keyword action, but there are two benefits:
a) clarity even if you use no reminder text for exhaust about whether a creature gets tapped
b) you can have effects like "Exhaust all creatures target player controls" which would just make them skip untapping for one untap step, but leaves untapped blockers unaffected.
(btw, I prefer exhaust to stun because it is more neutral to the card types it affects; I don't stun lands - another option would be deplete)
---
The OP-suggested "worse deathtouch" variant is a so-so mechanic. It makes sense to put it into colors that don't already get deathtouch. white-blue is a natural fit for tap-down mechanics. Stunning has been used in red-white gold cards at least once. I'm a fan of giving red tap-down effects or similar as long as they specifically work to overcome blockers it couldn'T otherwise remove (e. g. high toughness) and that's exactly where this shines, so I wouldn't mind giving this a spin.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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