I would like to open a discussion regarding the staff decision to stifle the use of "the gay kings" when describing Kyanios and Tiro of Meletis in response to some of the feedback and criticism we have received.
When the Kings were first spoiled a few days ago from the front of the C16 packaging, it was unclear what their names were, but it was obvious that they were the kings being depicted on Guardians of Meletis. Without a proper name, 'the gay kings' was quickly used because it was an apt description: they are kings, and they also happen to be gay. MTGS's stance on inappropriate language is that there are certain words which have offensive as well as inoffensive uses, and should be judged based on context. For example, "that man is gay", is acceptable (assuming it is a true statement), but "that deck is gay" would be against the rules. In this case, I acted as I did and ordered the staff to stop the use of this term for three reasons: the first was the context of the posts, or lack thereof. There is no question that it is true that the kings are gay, but by and large the majority of posts were devoid of context and the card was reduced to being just about the characters sexuality. Other posts were capitalizing on this and making jokes based on stereotypical traits of gay men. Secondly, but tied into the first concern I had, was the speed at which posts were being made due to the card having been newly spoiled. I acted fast, and the fastest way to react was to make a blanket request that the term not be used at all. Lastly, I was not trying to stop people from discussing their sexuality. I think it is great that WotC is so aware of the many different people who play this game and want their worlds to be an accurate reflection of the real world. My only intention was that the specific nickname not be used, just as we should not be acceptable of Alesha, Narset, or Teferi to be reduced to one aspect of their character when discussing their cards.
I realize that this comes off as heavy-handed moderation and for that I do apologize. But in the end, I feel that being slightly heavy-handed at times is preferable to being lax. One of the things I pride our site on is that we are (for the most part) more civilized than other sites where the moderation is minimal and users are free to be jerks to each other without repercussion.
I know some terms must be cautiously used but we are talking about fictional characters. Would people be offended reading racial slurs(for example) about fictional characters?
Absolutely. How is this even a question?
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I think part of the problem here comes from the fact that for many gay is a positive thing, or at least something they're trying to reclaim. So by cracking down on the nickname, it seemed like the moderation team was implying that gay was bad or somehow inappropriate. Obviously that was not the intention, but that impression was still given out.
I'd also like to say that I think Gay Kings is not reducing them to their sexuality any more than Four-Color Kings is reducing them to their color identity. You're still adding their moniker of King to another of their traits, in both cases. In the end, I feel like you should trust the moderation team enough to find the line between the nickname being used as simply a nickname and as an insult on a case by case basis.
I know some terms must be cautiously used but we are talking about fictional characters. Would people be offended reading racial slurs(for example) about fictional characters?
Absolutely. How is this even a question?
It's a fair question. To create fictional characters that lack that side of human nature is to make an unrealistic character. Not saying ALL fictional characters should walk around with hate speach on their tongue. Just that it can be and is done. Whether it's to maintain historical accuracy or to illustrate the hate, plot device or whatever. Roots blended the two to really bring the topic to the forefront. It's a real thing that shouldn't be swept under the rug because people get offended over it.
However, I agree Magic is not the game for that. So in the narrow confines of that. Yes...
It's a fair question. To create fictional characters that lack that side of human nature is to make an unrealistic character. Not saying ALL fictional characters should walk around with hate speach on their tongue. Just that it can be and is done. Whether it's to maintain historical accuracy or to illustrate the hate, plot device or whatever. Roots blended the two to really bring the topic to the forefront. It's a real thing that shouldn't be swept under the rug because people get offended over it.
However, I agree Magic is not the game for that. So in the narrow confines of that. Yes...
Right. We're not playing Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn: The Gathering.
Also, it's pretty clear in this context that the slurs in question are from non-fictional characters aimed at fictional characters. If anyone on the forums were to refer to Alesha as the T-word or Kaya as the N-word, it'd be a pretty big problem. So too goes for people referring to Kyanois and Tiro as "gay" repeatedly, especially when some of those posts make it clear that they mean gay as a slur and not just as a sexual preference description.
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Anyway, I think the main reason we are using "gay kings" to talk about them is because they have long and weird names , how on earth is Kyanios pronounced ? and why should I remember both "Kyanios and Tiro" names while I can just qualify them by whatever is drawn in the artwork ?
I totally understand that, and I fully understand that not everyone was using the term with a negative connotation. However, when the term is used in conjunction with butt jokes, rainbow jokes, partner jokes, and who knows what else had we allowed it, where do you take a stand and decide that the terms is just too loaded? To paraphrase user in one of the Rumor Mill threads, the use of that nickname takes everything about the card and characters and reduces it to nothing more than their sexual orientation.
This thread and this forum is for discussion about the cards being spoiled, and discussions and arguments over the flavor of the cards are spam and derail the intent of the thread.
This is a bull***** copout of staggering proportions. By that reasoning, I'd be derailing the Sidar Kondo thread by talking about how it's a cool callback to Mirage and Jamuraa. It's like the mods don't even know the rules to which they're supposed to abide. There's no consistency, just a bunch of "I don't like that, better lock it."
Perfectly fine and valid discussions are often censored or stifled because some mod needed to throw their weight around. We get it, you have authority over a website. We're all very impressed.
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I too feel this moderation was in very bad taste. To stifle the use of the word gay as an attack on other members is great - in fact, I was the person who started that rule, about a decade ago.
But to stifle (and punish) the use of the word gay when that is EXACTLY the correct description of the characters on the Magic card in question? That's homophobic!
I was punished in the "kings" thread for making a play on words using the word "butt", based on the creature having 8 toughness (commonly referred to as "butt"). A moderator claimed I had made a flame attack. Against who, a Magic card? All gay people? Of course not. The creature depicts gay men, and that's awesome. My brother would LOVE that card. And no, that's not a flame attack against my brother.
We should mature a little. It's 2016 and it's okay to be gay. It's even okay to correctly point out that a Magic character is gay, or use the word "butt". There's literally no harm to anyone.
The harm is when overzealous moderators stifle discussion and then attempt to cover up their poor decision by claiming "it's better to overmoderate than undermoderate". In this case, it was hurtful and wrong to moderate. An apology to the affected members (and the gay community) should be made.
One thing that has consistently made me proud about this forum compared to many other that I have visited is that for the most part, our users are able to respect other users with whom they disagree (or at least put on a display of it). It is frustrating and distracting to see a forum thread go off on a many page tangent because of a troll or flame war. It is for this reason that I have taken a more heavy handed approach to moderation for my years on staff. Unfortunately, every once in a while I err. It is clear to me that this is one of those times. I acted as I did because I saw what looked to be the beginnings of the potential for a thread which would require aggressive moderation intervention, and decided that cutting it off early was the apt solution, when in reality I should have waited until that intervention was needed. And in this, what I unfortunately did was to send a message that the staff did not trust the users to be respectful. And for that reason alone I am sorry and apologize to each site member to whom I slighted. And for those of you who understood my reasoning even if you didn't agree with them, again, thank you for your support.
I also would like to thank the users who took the time to speak out against the decision. Everyone on the staff is human, and at times we will error. But we are all open to constructive criticism and feedback, and while I can't promise that all feedback gets acted on, it is all received and given due consideration.
If the affected members will PM me I will review any associated infractions for using the term in a normal manner and reverse them as needed.
I know some terms must be cautiously used but we are talking about fictional characters. Would people be offended reading racial slurs(for example) about fictional characters?
Absolutely. How is this even a question?
Color me shocked at the idea that there is ANY circumstance where this would be acceptable. Good on you, MTGS, glad to see this action.
One thing that has consistently made me proud about this forum compared to many other that I have visited is that for the most part, our users are able to respect other users with whom they disagree (or at least put on a display of it). It is frustrating and distracting to see a forum thread go off on a many page tangent because of a troll or flame war. It is for this reason that I have taken a more heavy handed approach to moderation for my years on staff. Unfortunately, every once in a while I err. It is clear to me that this is one of those times. I acted as I did because I saw what looked to be the beginnings of the potential for a thread which would require aggressive moderation intervention, and decided that cutting it off early was the apt solution, when in reality I should have waited until that intervention was needed. And in this, what I unfortunately did was to send a message that the staff did not trust the users to be respectful. And for that reason alone I am sorry and apologize to each site member to whom I slighted. And for those of you who understood my reasoning even if you didn't agree with them, again, thank you for your support.
I also would like to thank the users who took the time to speak out against the decision. Everyone on the staff is human, and at times we will error. But we are all open to constructive criticism and feedback, and while I can't promise that all feedback gets acted on, it is all received and given due consideration.
If the affected members will PM me I will review any associated infractions for using the term in a normal manner and reverse them as needed.
I'm pretty late to the party here, but I wanted to stop in and thank Cryogen for taking the action he did. Between here and social media, it felt pretty disheartening to see the LGBT representation being reduced to being the punchline of a joke every other post. As I said in the Rumor Mill and on Twitter, no one called Kaya "that new Black Planeswalker", or Narset "that Autistic chick", Daretti "the disabled guy" or so on. There's a double standard in Western culture where no one will touch those subjects with a joke because it'd be offensive and minimizing them to their differences, but for whatever reason it's okay to to so with Gay people and it's acceptable. There's a lot of reasons for that, and part of it is the popularization of absurd circuses like RuPaul among a lot of other reasoning (many others that are far too lengthy to debate). Anyway, thank you Cryo for thinking about those of us in the LGBT community and doing what you thought was best, even if not everyone agreed on the matter. Action is infinitely better than inaction. MTGS has always tried to keep the forums a safe space (so sue me, I know conservatives see that as a dirty term) from discrimination, trolling and making it a welcoming atmosphere, and I'm proud of that.
One argument above said that it's 2016 and gay should be okay. I agree. It also should be accepted and normalized as part of that so that it is not something that needs to be the subject of constant mention, and we should be able to coexist in society without it needing mentioned, especially as the butt of a joke which undermines that. In order for LGBT people to be seen as part of a normalized society, it has to first not be seen as an exception or a difference of note (which is why I can't stand giant celebrity coming out stories, but that's another story for another time).
Sorry for posting on a 2 month old thread. I don't come down to Community Issues often, but this was an issue that I was just sucking up and dealing with at the time, so it resonated with me.
I would like to open a discussion regarding the staff decision to stifle the use of "the gay kings" when describing Kyanios and Tiro of Meletis in response to some of the feedback and criticism we have received.
When the Kings were first spoiled a few days ago from the front of the C16 packaging, it was unclear what their names were, but it was obvious that they were the kings being depicted on Guardians of Meletis. Without a proper name, 'the gay kings' was quickly used because it was an apt description: they are kings, and they also happen to be gay. MTGS's stance on inappropriate language is that there are certain words which have offensive as well as inoffensive uses, and should be judged based on context. For example, "that man is gay", is acceptable (assuming it is a true statement), but "that deck is gay" would be against the rules. In this case, I acted as I did and ordered the staff to stop the use of this term for three reasons: the first was the context of the posts, or lack thereof. There is no question that it is true that the kings are gay, but by and large the majority of posts were devoid of context and the card was reduced to being just about the characters sexuality. Other posts were capitalizing on this and making jokes based on stereotypical traits of gay men. Secondly, but tied into the first concern I had, was the speed at which posts were being made due to the card having been newly spoiled. I acted fast, and the fastest way to react was to make a blanket request that the term not be used at all. Lastly, I was not trying to stop people from discussing their sexuality. I think it is great that WotC is so aware of the many different people who play this game and want their worlds to be an accurate reflection of the real world. My only intention was that the specific nickname not be used, just as we should not be acceptable of Alesha, Narset, or Teferi to be reduced to one aspect of their character when discussing their cards.
I realize that this comes off as heavy-handed moderation and for that I do apologize. But in the end, I feel that being slightly heavy-handed at times is preferable to being lax. One of the things I pride our site on is that we are (for the most part) more civilized than other sites where the moderation is minimal and users are free to be jerks to each other without repercussion.
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Absolutely. How is this even a question?
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I'd also like to say that I think Gay Kings is not reducing them to their sexuality any more than Four-Color Kings is reducing them to their color identity. You're still adding their moniker of King to another of their traits, in both cases. In the end, I feel like you should trust the moderation team enough to find the line between the nickname being used as simply a nickname and as an insult on a case by case basis.
It's a fair question. To create fictional characters that lack that side of human nature is to make an unrealistic character. Not saying ALL fictional characters should walk around with hate speach on their tongue. Just that it can be and is done. Whether it's to maintain historical accuracy or to illustrate the hate, plot device or whatever. Roots blended the two to really bring the topic to the forefront. It's a real thing that shouldn't be swept under the rug because people get offended over it.
However, I agree Magic is not the game for that. So in the narrow confines of that. Yes...
Right. We're not playing Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn: The Gathering.
Also, it's pretty clear in this context that the slurs in question are from non-fictional characters aimed at fictional characters. If anyone on the forums were to refer to Alesha as the T-word or Kaya as the N-word, it'd be a pretty big problem. So too goes for people referring to Kyanois and Tiro as "gay" repeatedly, especially when some of those posts make it clear that they mean gay as a slur and not just as a sexual preference description.
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I totally understand that, and I fully understand that not everyone was using the term with a negative connotation. However, when the term is used in conjunction with butt jokes, rainbow jokes, partner jokes, and who knows what else had we allowed it, where do you take a stand and decide that the terms is just too loaded? To paraphrase user in one of the Rumor Mill threads, the use of that nickname takes everything about the card and characters and reduces it to nothing more than their sexual orientation.
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Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
This is a bull***** copout of staggering proportions. By that reasoning, I'd be derailing the Sidar Kondo thread by talking about how it's a cool callback to Mirage and Jamuraa. It's like the mods don't even know the rules to which they're supposed to abide. There's no consistency, just a bunch of "I don't like that, better lock it."
Perfectly fine and valid discussions are often censored or stifled because some mod needed to throw their weight around. We get it, you have authority over a website. We're all very impressed.
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But to stifle (and punish) the use of the word gay when that is EXACTLY the correct description of the characters on the Magic card in question? That's homophobic!
I was punished in the "kings" thread for making a play on words using the word "butt", based on the creature having 8 toughness (commonly referred to as "butt"). A moderator claimed I had made a flame attack. Against who, a Magic card? All gay people? Of course not. The creature depicts gay men, and that's awesome. My brother would LOVE that card. And no, that's not a flame attack against my brother.
We should mature a little. It's 2016 and it's okay to be gay. It's even okay to correctly point out that a Magic character is gay, or use the word "butt". There's literally no harm to anyone.
The harm is when overzealous moderators stifle discussion and then attempt to cover up their poor decision by claiming "it's better to overmoderate than undermoderate". In this case, it was hurtful and wrong to moderate. An apology to the affected members (and the gay community) should be made.
.
I also would like to thank the users who took the time to speak out against the decision. Everyone on the staff is human, and at times we will error. But we are all open to constructive criticism and feedback, and while I can't promise that all feedback gets acted on, it is all received and given due consideration.
If the affected members will PM me I will review any associated infractions for using the term in a normal manner and reverse them as needed.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Color me shocked at the idea that there is ANY circumstance where this would be acceptable. Good on you, MTGS, glad to see this action.
Class act, sir. *tip of the hat*
One argument above said that it's 2016 and gay should be okay. I agree. It also should be accepted and normalized as part of that so that it is not something that needs to be the subject of constant mention, and we should be able to coexist in society without it needing mentioned, especially as the butt of a joke which undermines that. In order for LGBT people to be seen as part of a normalized society, it has to first not be seen as an exception or a difference of note (which is why I can't stand giant celebrity coming out stories, but that's another story for another time).
Sorry for posting on a 2 month old thread. I don't come down to Community Issues often, but this was an issue that I was just sucking up and dealing with at the time, so it resonated with me.
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