This is probably a dumb question, but do you guys run any analytics on the moderators of the site? It might help identify individual moderators who are "overzealous." In fact, I'm pretty sure you couldn't call any moderator in particular overzealous without some kind of analysis.
It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the following:
Number of warnings per post in moderated section
Number of infractions per post in moderated section
Ratio of warnings to infractions
Of course, these numbers might be hard to interpret correctly. It could be possible that one moderator in the section is just more active than the others. It could also be possible that one section of the forum is more prone to breaking the rules.
Can the analysis be done based on a number of infractions per report responded to? That might be more helpful, as someone who just infracts everything that gets reported would stand out. Then again, it could just be that crowd reporting only bad posts. And this wouldn't even capture posts that get infracted without being reported.
I dunno. Just spitballing.
Analysis could be done, but like you said, interpretations would be need. The Rumor Mill, for example, often just deletes spam, while Rulings has rules against no card tags. So I have a lot less warnings/infractions than another, say parinoid, who mods Rulings.
As a mod, *I* feel that regardless of whether or not you have anything to add to a reply, if a person asks a question or brings up a concern, you have the obligation to respond back. This is why some people may feel disrespected when they are ignored like that.
Would "I got your response, but my reply is the same as the first" be an appropriate response?
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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Also, for another argument against cronyism: If moderation on this site was a popularity contest, I'd probably never have been modded. The majority of the staff didn't know who I was at the time, and of those who did, opinions were mixed. I was actually a bit surprised to get in, considering I honestly thought the deck was stacked pretty hard against me.
As for Arcadic, Senori and Teia? Yeah, they are still on staff. That's what they get for doing their jobs.
You can't expect us to do our jobs perfectly. We are human. Humans make mistakes.
Now, when a mod gets confrontational with a poster, or makes some other kind of mistake, why don't we see red or yellow cards? Or at least see the ever so famous "stop" or "chill out/calm down" lines.
I make a mistake and get an auto boot when I was averaging 5 posts a day.
There have been instances of mods receiving infractions before. Arcadic calling certain users "scumbags" and Promatim asking a user to stop posting were both carded, for instance.
Would "I got your response, but my reply is the same as the first" be an appropriate response?
Is that even a serious question?
Put yourself on the other side. You're upset about something, you provide your case on why its not just, and they reply with some response clearly hinting they don't want to waste their time with you. Implying they know they are right, no need to discuss anything or get someone else involved. (Which wouldn't be a bad idea, in case they have a bias.)
Take the NSFW discussion in WCT for example. Some mods found it ok for people to talk about their age, preferred sexual partner, and how they maintain their pubic hair. Myself and some other mods don't think that it's alright. Maybe there should always be a general consensus when suspending or banning people.
In my case, it woulda been totally cool if another mod was like, "nah, he wasnt being malicious, Ill delete the post and let the guy come back." Then again, I may be wrong and all of you we're in support of suspending me.
Note though, this isn't all about me getting in trouble, I'm letting out opinions I've gained over the past few months of observing certain actions on this site.
Put yourself on the other side. You're upset about something, you provide your case on why its not just, and they reply with some response clearly hinting they don't want to waste their time with you. Implying they know they are right, no need to discuss anything or get someone else involved. (Which wouldn't be a bad idea, in case they have a bias.)
Take the NSFW discussion in WCT for example. Some mods found it ok for people to talk about their age, preferred sexual partner, and how they maintain their pubic hair. Myself and some other mods don't think that it's alright. Maybe there should always be a general consensus when suspending or banning people.
In my case, it woulda been totally cool if another mod was like, "nah, he wasnt being malicious, Ill delete the post and let the guy come back." Then again, I may be wrong and all of you we're in support of suspending me.
Note though, this isn't all about me getting in trouble, I'm letting out opinions I've gained over the past few months of observing certain actions on this site.
It is. I've received PM's asking me to overturn a warning for image leeching, I said that in general we don't overturn warnings and that it just a reminder and got the reply that now that the post isn't leeching and that they know the rule, can it be overturned. At that point, I could just send the same response, which I did, or I could say that I've already answered it.
Basically, I can say "I've already answered this" or I can repeat myself. Which would you prefer as a user? I tend to prefer efficiency, so a polite response of "I answered that" is better. But I don't mind either way.
Edit: I should note that I always put if they dislike my answer, they could take it to a Global. I've only been global for 3 weeks, so I haven't gotten any of those PMs since becoming Global.
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It is. I've received PM's asking me to overturn a warning for image leeching, I said that in general we don't overturn warnings and that it just a reminder and got the reply that now that the post isn't leeching and that they know the rule, can it be overturned. At that point, I could just send the same response, which I did, or I could say that I've already answered it.
Basically, I can say "I've already answered this" or I can repeat myself. Which would you prefer as a user? I tend to prefer efficiency, so a polite response of "I answered that" is better. But I don't mind either way.
Ok, we'll in that case, I guess there isn't much for you to say... Maybe reiterate you don't overturn warnings, apologize, link them to the rule, and tell them who to contact if they still have a problem or are upset about the issue?
You got me, this is all my fault
You actually made a good example with me and the "Friend recruits argument". I was approached by rianalnn to re-apply for a mod position last year because 1) I was active again and 2) they needed an experienced mod to balance and teach the new guys. I had the experience, so ria came to me and I accepted it. That could be an example of your theory, but the truth is, there wasn't anyone that met the requisites they had at the time. There were no other experinced mods to choose from. After that, ria left and I was left "friendless" on staff, so by your theory, I should have been stuck in clans or left already.
I never said that. Strawman I said you were put on staff based on cronyism.
Well, no, I got promoted to Global by people that I hardly knew back then and then promoted to Admin for the job I did as Global. I was Adminned by people I knew already, but that's always true when you work in a place with few people that get along.
Yes you were promoted because you have friends because of the few people that get along in the mod longue which only proves my point.
Now, as for Woapa and Promatim, they weren't cut, they left. They were 2 great mods and I don't really appreciate it when they are named like a cancer that had to be removed.
Ha.
Woapallane a good mod. Right. That's why he was abrasive and treated users who came to him like trash.
As for Proamatim, he should have been fired right after he called out Brandon in CI. It was obvious he had no interest in treating the community with respect.
As for Arcadic, Senori and Teia? Yeah, they are still on staff. That's what they get for doing their jobs.
Lol.
Arcadic flamed a fixture, ex mod, and promtinent member of the community N_S by calling him a coward and a scumbag. This wouldn't have been a huge deal if he apologized, but instead he was unapologetic and learned nothing from the discipline that he apparently recieved.
As for Senori and Teia, they handled the WCT rules change so poorly that you should have looked for someone more competent.
You can't expect us to do our jobs perfectly. We are human. Humans make mistakes. We have a system to try and compensate for that (appeals) but I admit that some stuff may slide through the cracks. However, the idea that we just don't care, or that we single out people on purpose? I devote a lot of time to this site. Not because I get something out of it, but because I care about the people that I've met here for the past 8 years. To think that anyone would be on staff with any bad intentions.... It just doesn't fit.
Humans make mistake and apologize when they do and generally don't make the same mistake again. This didn't happen with Arc, this didn't happen with Woap, this didn't happen with Promatim, and the other two are just incompetent moderators who will never be as good as N_S in that section. Hell the cess pool that WCT these days, I miss when Manders modded that section with an iron fist.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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Also, for another argument against cronyism: If moderation on this site was a popularity contest, I'd probably never have been modded. The majority of the staff didn't know who I was at the time, and of those who did, opinions were mixed. I was actually a bit surprised to get in, considering I honestly thought the deck was stacked pretty hard against me.
To be fair lots of the staff are kept on because of popularity, or taken off because of unpopularity. While its not a requirement to become a mod by popular vote, being able to stay on staff with people thinking positively about you is because of popularity.
When people say you are a bad mod Teia it creates issues for regular poster of the forum you moderate and CI as a whole. Basically mods should be liked enough where people aren't in groups hating you.
To be fair lots of the staff are kept on because of popularity, or taken off because of unpopularity. While its not a requirement to become a mod by popular vote, being able to stay on staff with people thinking positively about you is because of popularity.
When people say you are a bad mod Teia it creates issues for regular poster of the forum you moderate and CI as a whole. Basically mods should be liked enough where people aren't in groups hating you.
++
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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The process of approaching members chosen by the staff and asking them to join is called "targeted hiring", and was implemented by ExpiredRascals. Hopefully that information will help people direct their concerns and comments more appropriately.
Yanni, every single mod and exmod you mentioned has been reprimanded in a variety of ways depending on the circumstances. Criticism is pointing out that someone did something wrong. It starts to become harassment when you can't let something go that happened months in the past and has already been dealt with appropriately. Let it go. Criticize the current mods for current issues all you want, but dredging up the past time and time again is not going to help make the mod team or this site any better.
Point 1:
@ Votan, please explain to me how his post is worthy of an infraction. I would seriously love to hear this.
It even says in the rules that I've bolded below, how is this simple question "deliberately provoking a hostile reaction from other users."?
And some mods/admins seriously wonder why some people feel the way that they do?
"Flaming is a hostile verbal attack directed at another person or group of people. Trolling is the act of deliberately provoking a hostile reaction from other users. These actions will not be tolerated. Additionally, harassing and flaming someone via PMs may trigger more severe offenses, up to and including a suspension.
We do not recognize excuses such as "he flamed me first!"; if you feel attacked by other members, report the post and let moderators handle it rather than flame back. Similarly, if you feel that someone is trolling, just report the post/thread. Calling someone a troll also amounts to flaming/trolling.
The rule of thumb is to criticize the idea, not the person. You may think a deck is bad, and you may say so (though make it constructive), but a deck being bad doesn't make the poster an idiot. Be respectful.
Responding to other people with unwarranted hostility, picking fights and in general being a dick to other members is also grounds for moderation. Remember, it is everyone's job to be friendly and civilized, and maintain other users' good forum experience. We want people to get along."
Point 2:
Now with regards to what I highlighted in bold above here is your post:
Enough of this. the Administration is in charge of staff, not you. If you have something productive to say, say it, otherwise, keep it to yourselves. You're joking with people's work and I'm sick of it
That's trolling, that's beating your chest, that's what people are referring to.
Point 3:
I've received infractions before for stupid things. Whatever, in the grand scheme of things I don't give a ****, this is the internet. But one really pisses me off and sticks out in my mind where I had bumped my trade thread in what I thought was a reasonable amount of time. Turns out I was incorrect and I was infracted for it, but what really pisses me off is that I have seen numerous times where people have done the SAME EXACT THING and it's a simple warning. There is no consistency, it's ****ing stupid.
EDIT:
I guess it had been resolved while I was posting this but my second point still stands
When people say you are a bad mod Teia it creates issues for regular poster of the forum you moderate and CI as a whole. Basically mods should be liked enough where people aren't in groups hating you.
I don't think this is quite right. I think mods need to be respected rather than liked. If a mod is hated but respected, he or she can still be effective. When a mod isn't respected, however (for whatever reason), you tend to get problems/drama.
Cheers for the support StickTologY, but it was just a misunderstanding. Lets not forget votan's first language isn't English.
You're welcome, and I had put the edit in my post before you posted this but my second and third points still stand. Some of the things that people get infracted for plain and ****ing dumb and per the rules of this forum the admin sat there and blatantly trolled with his post. I don't ****ing get it.
First, I wasn't trolling. I was serious. I wasn't beating my chest, I was putting my foot down. I'm responsible for a lot of people in this staff. They work their asses off day in and day out to better this community and what they get in return is often people bashing them. We're done with letting that happen. We (the Admins) don't want people to gang up on mods and treat them like garbage. They do a job that's a cornerstone of this community and they need to be respected too. If you have a problem with a decision, or a mod, contact the Administration and we'll handle it, but we're done with letting this happen in public, where everyone says what they please with no consequence. So what I was saying is, it's fine if you post about this subject but be respectful of the people who give you a bunch of hours a day so that you have a place like MTGS to have fun at.
I'm in the military so I completely understand that you don't want people bashing your guys and you need to stick up for them. That I get. Second, yes, you were trolling - whether you want to believe it or not. You can call it putting your foot down, I'll call it beating your chest, it really doesn't matter. I can guarantee that if any other person would've said something along those lines that an infraction would have been issued, possibly worse. If you would like to argue this one then by all means I will walk that path with you.
MTGS has rules. The Market Street has strict rules (which is needed because that section of the site directly envolves money). You read those rules when you joined the Marked Street and agreed to abide by them. Then you get an infraction for not following the well laid out rules and you get offended by it... It's not logical. And even then, if you think justice wasn't made, you have a clear path to appeal those decisions. Use it.
I'm well aware of the rules, and maybe I didn't make myself clear. Did I break the rules? Yes. Do I care that I got infracted? No. Do I think it was warranted? No. Do I think that there is ZERO consistency when it comes to handing out these sort of things? YES! That's what pisses me off, the inconsistency. One person does this, warning issued. Another person does the same thing, infraction issued. Where is the consistency there? I did use my path for an appeal I did talk to the mod that issued it, asked him/her to use a little discretion before handing out something like that and blah blah blah. I heard back once with the same gurgled bull****, replied again and didn't hear a thing back from this person. That also pissed me off.
I don't think this is quite right. I think mods need to be respected rather than liked. If a mod is hated but respected, he or she can still be effective. When a mod isn't respected, however (for whatever reason), you tend to get problems/drama.
Do I think that there is ZERO consistency when it comes to handing out these sort of things? YES! That's what pisses me off, the inconsistency. One person does this, warning issued. Another person does the same thing, infraction issued. Where is the consistency there?
In Market Street (and most of the site) the first time you break a rule you receive a warning. Then, then after that a user receives an infraction. If you see what appears to be inconsistency why wouldn't you just ask instead of getting pissed off about it? That said, we just made a pretty large Rules Update to the site last weekend that addresses this issue because you are far from the only person to make this observation. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9741098&postcount=3
It's not everywhere on the site and it's not with every occurrence, but as a rule of thumb "yellow first, red after that."
I did use my path for an appeal I did talk to the mod that issued it, asked him/her to use a little discretion before handing out something like that and blah blah blah. I heard back once with the same gurgled bull****, replied again and didn't hear a thing back from this person. That also pissed me off.
Again, instead of getting pissed off why didn't you contact me? It says all over Market Street that if you have issues contact me. I ask my mods there to do a **** ton of unpaid work and know that I send them in to ticket the hell out of people. I've made it clear on many occasions that if they run into any trouble at all they need to send it up the chain of command. It's not that I don't trust them with this stuff, it's that I want them focusing on hunting for rippers, scams, cons, etc, and they can leave that stuff to me. Also, in Market Street there isn't really a lot of subjective judgment calls so leniency and discretion aren't effective tools there.
I think the point was more that you don't necessarily have to be carebears and butterflies with a person to respect and treat them and their position them with decency.
In Market Street (and most of the site) the first time you break a rule you receive a warning. Then, then after that a user receives an infraction. If you see what appears to be inconsistency why wouldn't you just ask instead of getting pissed off about it? That said, we just made a pretty large Rules Update to the site last weekend that addresses this issue because you are far from the only person to make this observation. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9741098&postcount=3
It's not everywhere on the site and it's not with every occurrence, but as a rule of thumb "yellow first, red after that."
I brought it up in a clear and concise manner, was I still pissed? Yup I was but I was far from rude and I'm pretty level headed when I'm pissed off. Last, in regards to "the first time you break a rule you receive a warning" are you referring to the entire site or the specific sections of the site?
Analysis could be done, but like you said, interpretations would be need. The Rumor Mill, for example, often just deletes spam, while Rulings has rules against no card tags. So I have a lot less warnings/infractions than another, say parinoid, who mods Rulings.
Would "I got your response, but my reply is the same as the first" be an appropriate response?
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Now, when a mod gets confrontational with a poster, or makes some other kind of mistake, why don't we see red or yellow cards? Or at least see the ever so famous "stop" or "chill out/calm down" lines.
I make a mistake and get an auto boot when I was averaging 5 posts a day.
Is that even a serious question?
Put yourself on the other side. You're upset about something, you provide your case on why its not just, and they reply with some response clearly hinting they don't want to waste their time with you. Implying they know they are right, no need to discuss anything or get someone else involved. (Which wouldn't be a bad idea, in case they have a bias.)
Take the NSFW discussion in WCT for example. Some mods found it ok for people to talk about their age, preferred sexual partner, and how they maintain their pubic hair. Myself and some other mods don't think that it's alright. Maybe there should always be a general consensus when suspending or banning people.
In my case, it woulda been totally cool if another mod was like, "nah, he wasnt being malicious, Ill delete the post and let the guy come back." Then again, I may be wrong and all of you we're in support of suspending me.
Note though, this isn't all about me getting in trouble, I'm letting out opinions I've gained over the past few months of observing certain actions on this site.
It is. I've received PM's asking me to overturn a warning for image leeching, I said that in general we don't overturn warnings and that it just a reminder and got the reply that now that the post isn't leeching and that they know the rule, can it be overturned. At that point, I could just send the same response, which I did, or I could say that I've already answered it.
Basically, I can say "I've already answered this" or I can repeat myself. Which would you prefer as a user? I tend to prefer efficiency, so a polite response of "I answered that" is better. But I don't mind either way.
Edit: I should note that I always put if they dislike my answer, they could take it to a Global. I've only been global for 3 weeks, so I haven't gotten any of those PMs since becoming Global.
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Ok, we'll in that case, I guess there isn't much for you to say... Maybe reiterate you don't overturn warnings, apologize, link them to the rule, and tell them who to contact if they still have a problem or are upset about the issue?
I never said that. Strawman I said you were put on staff based on cronyism.
Yes you were promoted because you have friends because of the few people that get along in the mod longue which only proves my point.
Ha.
Woapallane a good mod. Right. That's why he was abrasive and treated users who came to him like trash.
As for Proamatim, he should have been fired right after he called out Brandon in CI. It was obvious he had no interest in treating the community with respect.
Lol.
Arcadic flamed a fixture, ex mod, and promtinent member of the community N_S by calling him a coward and a scumbag. This wouldn't have been a huge deal if he apologized, but instead he was unapologetic and learned nothing from the discipline that he apparently recieved.
As for Senori and Teia, they handled the WCT rules change so poorly that you should have looked for someone more competent.
Humans make mistake and apologize when they do and generally don't make the same mistake again. This didn't happen with Arc, this didn't happen with Woap, this didn't happen with Promatim, and the other two are just incompetent moderators who will never be as good as N_S in that section. Hell the cess pool that WCT these days, I miss when Manders modded that section with an iron fist.
scumbag
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To be fair lots of the staff are kept on because of popularity, or taken off because of unpopularity. While its not a requirement to become a mod by popular vote, being able to stay on staff with people thinking positively about you is because of popularity.
When people say you are a bad mod Teia it creates issues for regular poster of the forum you moderate and CI as a whole. Basically mods should be liked enough where people aren't in groups hating you.
LOL
He shouldn't have to have been put on a witch hunt by mastergee and others before doing it. He shouldn't have done it in the first place.
++
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Please add to the discussion instead of spamming (or trolling) with Youtube videos. Infraction issued. - Galspanic
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What?
I don't understand this?
LOL
Point 1:
@ Votan, please explain to me how his post is worthy of an infraction. I would seriously love to hear this.
It even says in the rules that I've bolded below, how is this simple question "deliberately provoking a hostile reaction from other users."?
And some mods/admins seriously wonder why some people feel the way that they do?
"Flaming is a hostile verbal attack directed at another person or group of people. Trolling is the act of deliberately provoking a hostile reaction from other users. These actions will not be tolerated. Additionally, harassing and flaming someone via PMs may trigger more severe offenses, up to and including a suspension.
We do not recognize excuses such as "he flamed me first!"; if you feel attacked by other members, report the post and let moderators handle it rather than flame back. Similarly, if you feel that someone is trolling, just report the post/thread. Calling someone a troll also amounts to flaming/trolling.
The rule of thumb is to criticize the idea, not the person. You may think a deck is bad, and you may say so (though make it constructive), but a deck being bad doesn't make the poster an idiot. Be respectful.
Responding to other people with unwarranted hostility, picking fights and in general being a dick to other members is also grounds for moderation. Remember, it is everyone's job to be friendly and civilized, and maintain other users' good forum experience. We want people to get along."
Point 2:
Now with regards to what I highlighted in bold above here is your post:
That's trolling, that's beating your chest, that's what people are referring to.
Point 3:
I've received infractions before for stupid things. Whatever, in the grand scheme of things I don't give a ****, this is the internet. But one really pisses me off and sticks out in my mind where I had bumped my trade thread in what I thought was a reasonable amount of time. Turns out I was incorrect and I was infracted for it, but what really pisses me off is that I have seen numerous times where people have done the SAME EXACT THING and it's a simple warning. There is no consistency, it's ****ing stupid.
EDIT:
I guess it had been resolved while I was posting this but my second point still stands
MY TRADE THREAD
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10378545#post10378545
LOL
I don't think this is quite right. I think mods need to be respected rather than liked. If a mod is hated but respected, he or she can still be effective. When a mod isn't respected, however (for whatever reason), you tend to get problems/drama.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
You're welcome, and I had put the edit in my post before you posted this but my second and third points still stand. Some of the things that people get infracted for plain and ****ing dumb and per the rules of this forum the admin sat there and blatantly trolled with his post. I don't ****ing get it.
MY TRADE THREAD
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10378545#post10378545
I'm in the military so I completely understand that you don't want people bashing your guys and you need to stick up for them. That I get. Second, yes, you were trolling - whether you want to believe it or not. You can call it putting your foot down, I'll call it beating your chest, it really doesn't matter. I can guarantee that if any other person would've said something along those lines that an infraction would have been issued, possibly worse. If you would like to argue this one then by all means I will walk that path with you.
I'm well aware of the rules, and maybe I didn't make myself clear. Did I break the rules? Yes. Do I care that I got infracted? No. Do I think it was warranted? No. Do I think that there is ZERO consistency when it comes to handing out these sort of things? YES! That's what pisses me off, the inconsistency. One person does this, warning issued. Another person does the same thing, infraction issued. Where is the consistency there? I did use my path for an appeal I did talk to the mod that issued it, asked him/her to use a little discretion before handing out something like that and blah blah blah. I heard back once with the same gurgled bull****, replied again and didn't hear a thing back from this person. That also pissed me off.
MY TRADE THREAD
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10378545#post10378545
You don't respect the people you like?
LOL
In Market Street (and most of the site) the first time you break a rule you receive a warning. Then, then after that a user receives an infraction. If you see what appears to be inconsistency why wouldn't you just ask instead of getting pissed off about it? That said, we just made a pretty large Rules Update to the site last weekend that addresses this issue because you are far from the only person to make this observation.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9741098&postcount=3
It's not everywhere on the site and it's not with every occurrence, but as a rule of thumb "yellow first, red after that."
Again, instead of getting pissed off why didn't you contact me? It says all over Market Street that if you have issues contact me. I ask my mods there to do a **** ton of unpaid work and know that I send them in to ticket the hell out of people. I've made it clear on many occasions that if they run into any trouble at all they need to send it up the chain of command. It's not that I don't trust them with this stuff, it's that I want them focusing on hunting for rippers, scams, cons, etc, and they can leave that stuff to me. Also, in Market Street there isn't really a lot of subjective judgment calls so leniency and discretion aren't effective tools there.
I think the point was more that you don't necessarily have to be carebears and butterflies with a person to respect and treat them and their position them with decency.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I brought it up in a clear and concise manner, was I still pissed? Yup I was but I was far from rude and I'm pretty level headed when I'm pissed off. Last, in regards to "the first time you break a rule you receive a warning" are you referring to the entire site or the specific sections of the site?
MY TRADE THREAD
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10378545#post10378545
"In Market Street (and most of the site) the first time you break a rule you receive a warning."
And in the link.
"It's not everywhere on the site and it's not with every occurrence, but as a rule of thumb "yellow first, red after that."
...or are do you mean something like you spam in the Rumor mill and then spam in Debate?
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.