I believe you should treat staff with the high respect they earned and deserve. What you are doing is being very unneccessaraly abrasive and unfair to the staff.
Respect is earned, not given. Only people who feel entitled or people who have a small amount of power feel that those without the same power are obligated to respect them.
You salute the rank and position in the military, not the man.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
@Harkius - You are literally the only person who I have even seen mass delete posts so I think it's pretty easy to call that a narrow issue.
@USMCFahey - Nowhere does it say to ignore problems you see. But, leading in to that request it looked like classic internet stalking and harassment. We just asked that you stop with that. If you have an issue with her, let us know. If your lack of faith is such that you think you need to invade threads wholly unrelated to Teia or anything Teia'esque then I don't know there is much we can do. But we want you to stop derailing every conversation. There are other venues.
The comment Fahey was suspended for was in a thread and in direct reply to other comments regarding teia. There was no derailing there.
I think that is a debate I can't get into here... don't have the time and probably too many years since my last intellectual property discussion in a liberal arts philosophy class.
But, Community Issues is a forum where Community Issues are discussed. Policy changes based on those discussion and we refer people to these threads all the time. As a type of on-going debate we want the record to be as clear and intact as we can.
That wasn't quite what I was meaning. But to have earned that power shows that they must have some respect, no?
You can "earn" the respect of your higher-ups but not the respect of those you are expected to lead. I know that I dealt with many NCOs in my time that had not earned the respect of the people they lead, but they did enough things to "please the higher-ups" that it was difficult to do anything about it.
I know of one Sergeant, for example, who was absolutely loathed by her troops under her command, but was literally sleeping with the company commander.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
Respect is earned, not given. Only people who feel entitled or people who have a small amount of power feel that those without the same power are obligated to respect them.
You salute the rank and position in the military, not the man.
I give respect freely. The whole "earn respect" thing is very old fashioned in the context of being a person on the internet... and now usually used as an excuse for being disrespectful towards another person. Even based on your own observable behavior, you respect people until they do something that bothers you and then you lose respect for them. Not quite the same thing as earning respect though.
I give respect freely. The whole "earn respect" thing is very old fashioned in the context of being a person on the internet... and now usually used as an excuse for being disrespectful towards another person. Even based on your own observable behavior, you respect people until they do something that bothers you and then you lose respect for them. Not quite the same thing as earning respect though.
If everyone is given respect, then respect has no meaning. It should be something you strive to achieve, not something you expect to be given no matter what.
After the requests to leave her alone was made. Yes.
Then it is, "Don't talk about Teia or to Teia, at all." Once again, you have pretty much told me:
1.) Don't post in WCT.
2.) Don't post in threads where Teia is posting.
3.) If you have a problem with Teia, we don't care.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
Resepct isn't about other people. It's about my ability to treat others with decency - NOT their ability to be treated decently.
If you don't understand the difference between posting respectful posts in WCT and stalking a mod, scrutinizing every single action she makes, then I think you are okay to adopt your list of 3 there.
Resepct isn't about other people. It's about my ability to treat others with decency - NOT their ability to be treated decently.
If you don't understand the difference between posting respectful posts in WCT and stalking a mod, scrutinizing every single action she makes, then I think you are okay to adopt your list of 3 there.
"Respect" is something given to people who have earned the right to be treated decently by me. Someone who has habitually called me a bigot, as well as acting contrary to what she has said/what has been said she has been told loses my respect, and thus my willingness to be more lenient drops as well.
Someone who has also treated people like absolute crap is also undeserving of my respect. If you need to be reminded of what I mean, go re-read the posts by Teia during the WCT rules fiasco.
At this point, I would like to request that this line of debate/argument be made into a new thread in CI and the "State of the Community" thread be left to live or die as the community sees fit. As has been said, this is not the place for this.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
Okay, let's get transparent here. If you're going to try to hang out dirty laundry, I'm going to do it too.
CorpT, you were specifically asked to take part in the mod-only thread that you have access to instead of only lurking and reporting posts. You were making people feel uncomfortable with your presence because they felt you were spying on them. Instead of taking this to heart and joining a community ready to welcome you, you left because we didn't want you reporting posts you didn't like.
Fahey, you've been bringing up Teia in threads where she doesn't even belong. The upper staff has noticed it, and it's been an ongoing problem. We decided to ask you to stop doing this, as bringing her up in threads where she's a tangent at best is harassment. It isn't something I'd allow to be done to you, and it's not something the staff is going to accept being done to one of the mods here. Not only did you laugh this off elsewhere, you then proceeded to do exactly what you were asked not to do. Furthermore, the suspension you got for violating that mod request was actually more lenient than you should have gotten. You have no room to complain.
Harkius, you're the one that upsets me the most. Mainly because you actually got your request granted, even though it was against our wishes. Deleting your posts throughout the site will actually cause threads to become unreadable in certain cases. Original posts of threads will vanish. Things people replied to suddenly aren't there. But you got permission anyways, after some time (and in this case an ownership change). We asked that you leave CI alone because we actually refer back to posts to get information. Things like Gloves, for example.
If you three want to do better for this site, then be constructive. Don't complain constantly. CorpT, you want to bring up a problem you have with mods? You were invited to step in and talk. So do it, don't angst because they don't want you to act the spy. Fahey, you have a problem with a mod? Bring it up to them directly. Or an admin directly. And understand that if you get overruled, that's it. End of story. You don't get to go on a crusade. And Harkius? You were asked a very small concession on your request. We made our compromise. You need to accept that, since it's a lot more than we wanted to do.
Your feedback is welcomed and accepted, and we act on it. But acting like a spoiled child not getting their way is not the way to help out. There are times when you don't get your way. Or times when something you suggest gets put on the backburner because more important things come up. Or times when your suggestion is simply not the best choice at the time. You need to understand and accept this, because this endless series of complaints here simply gets people to ignore you and no longer be willing to work with you. It doesn't suddenly get attention.
At the end of the day, how you bring up your grievances is going to decide exactly how seriously people take you; if you're pleasant and willing to talk, I'm going to be willing to talk to you, work with you, and try to find a way to make us all happy with an improved 'Salvation. If you decide to be a jerk, to harass people, to make unreasonable demands and then decide to rant publicly if you don't get your way, you're simply not going to be taken seriously and the staff will turn to the next person who's willing to be civilized.
But the fact that you think it's necessary to officially request me not to discuss, for example, Talore's having banned me from posting in the Speakeasy suggests that you're trying to sweep problems under the carpet rather than dealing with them. I think that the requests made to mystery45 and FaheyUSMC are similarly poorly considered, and those are only the ones that I know about. How many others are there? How many times have people been forbidden from discussing what the problems are that they've had with the site or it's moderating staff?
Harkius
So that this is out in the open: This is not true. I asked Harkius to stop posting in a single thread in the Speakeasy which was a social space of people (gutter members IIRC) that almost universally disliked him and certainly were being disrupted by his continuous unwelcome posting. One thread, not the whole Speakeasy. This was also an alternative to handing out trolling infractions. Harkius has decided to exile himself from the subforum, not by any mod request.
This was quite a while ago now, and after that I have not handled any direct moderation towards Harkius on the account of our unfriendly relationship. The other tSpy mods were fine with this action.
Fahey, you've been bringing up Teia in threads where she doesn't even belong. The upper staff has noticed it, and it's been an ongoing problem. We decided to ask you to stop doing this, as bringing her up in threads where she's a tangent at best is harassment. It isn't something I'd allow to be done to you, and it's not something the staff is going to accept being done to one of the mods here. Not only did you laugh this off elsewhere, you then proceeded to do exactly what you were asked not to do. Furthermore, the suspension you got for violating that mod request was actually more lenient than you should have gotten. You have no room to complain.
First off, I didn't "laugh it off" in another place. I posted the "request" in it's entirety, as well as my response. I also stated that someone was immature to even think it was necessary. No, the way I worded it wasn't nice, but considering the fact that the staff has to jump through hoops to cover Teia's mess-ups and try to fix things, it only serves to further drive a wedge between the users and the staff. But then again, when people throw around ideas such as hacking an account to get at private messages, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I also shouldn't be surprised that once again, the users are blamed.
Second, it's not harassment when the moderator-in-question is the subject of the thread that I responded to. I would also point out that I was far more lenient in how I responded in it, and in every instance pointed out that:
1.) Teia was acting contrary to what she said concerning debate threads;
2.) The staff was silently condoning violations of the rules by other members of the staff by allowing this moderator to continue to flaunt the rules;
3.) The explanations given by the staff as to why they were allowing this to continue was contradictory, at best, and;
4.) Teia was acting contrary to the CoC and the claims of "Teia will not moderate in threads where she has an interest in her opinions" from the Admins (sources can be provided via screenshot to support this claim).
So, is it now harassment to reply in a thread and not derail it in order to reinforce points?
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
Perhaps instead of responding to the person, you should respond to the position or argument being made. If someone says something that you dont agree with, or takes a position that to you, makes no sense. Then responding to that with why you feel that particular position or argument is incorrect and why its incorrect (with sources or anything else) then I imagine that should be fine. Its when someone chooses to attack the person making the claim/position/argument, that the issues often come in.
Usually when discussing things in debate or what not. Ill respond to what others have posted by simply saying that I disagree with their point of view based on (whatever reasoning I have to disagree with it, including any facts/sources to back up my own point of view on the discussion. Ill never call out the person for their personal point of view, Ill simply argue the points given. If someone posts about their own personal experiences, then thats fine, I may then post my own personal experiences, or those experiences of those I know that have experienced similar things in order to provide my own perspective to the discussion/debate.
As far as the respect stuff goes. The way I look at respect, is that everyone starts out with a certain, small level towards anyone they may not know, or have recently met. From there, based upon the person's actions, that respect can grow, or it can diminish from that initial starting level. It is true that a high level of respect is something that must be earned. I personally have respect for every mod here, simply for the willingness to take on such a task of helping to moderate and keep the site running smoothly. Some mods I have more respect for than others due to the actions I have seen them take, how they respond to things, and just their general demeanor towards myself or others on the site.
I agree that we should have the ability to remove or modify our posts if we wish to do so. However, I also understand that due to the nature of discussion and the fact that many people, including myself, dont always reply directly to posts but rather just reply in general to the discussion in the thread without quoting, taking out a large amount of posts from a thread can make it very difficult for people to be able to read/understand what was going on, since there would now be large holes in the discussion and much of it would no longer make sense or flow properly without it. Just something I thought about when the topic was brought up in this thread.
Anyhow, Ive got to get going. I would simply ask that everyone try to keep an open mind to the perspectives of everyone else, and try to treat others with as much respect and kindness as you would want to be treated with. It can also help to try to put yourselves in their positions as well, try to understand where they are coming from and why they are doing/saying what they are. Thats what I try to do anyway.
4.) Teia was acting contrary to the CoC and the claims of "Teia will not moderate in threads where she has an interest in her opinions" from the Admins (sources can be provided via screenshot to support this claim).
Are you talking about this thread? If that's the case, you are correct, Teia did moderate posts in a thread that she was "interested" in. But did you even look at the posts she modded or infracted?
About Frox: for nearly 10 years, Frox has been helping women look good and feel great in easy-fit, mix-and-match, and work-to-weekend with just a few pieces by helping them make the right choices when it comes to clothing and accessories.
First off, I didn't "laugh it off" in another place. I posted the "request" in it's entirety, as well as my response. I also stated that someone was immature to even think it was necessary. No, the way I worded it wasn't nice, but considering the fact that the staff has to jump through hoops to cover Teia's mess-ups and try to fix things, it only serves to further drive a wedge between the users and the staff. But then again, when people throw around ideas such as hacking an account to get at private messages, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I also shouldn't be surprised that once again, the users are blamed.
And once again the staff is being blamed.
I'm willing to admit I've made mistakes. For instance, I didn't follow up in the interview that you wanted. I simply forgot. I know I've made other mistakes too, and I'm glad to work on them. I have been, actually, for a while.
If you're going to spout false information about what the staff has done, the staff is going to come in and say 'well, no, this is how it actually went'. And if that false information you posted causes issues, I'm going to blame you for the issue.
We've been actively working with Teia for a while. And we went from many, many users complaining about Teia back in September/October to just a very scant few. That looks like progress to me. And yet you continue on your crusade.
Second, it's not harassment when the moderator-in-question is the subject of the thread that I responded to. I would also point out that I was far more lenient in how I responded in it, and in every instance pointed out that:
It actually is harassment. You've been actively gunning for her continuously. I can look at your posting history in CI and see that you mention her just about once every three posts. If not more than that. You're actively aiming for her, and you haven't stopped even though the staff is obviously not agreeing with you.
1.) Teia was acting contrary to what she said concerning debate threads;
Then let's work on deciding when the Debate threads need to be moved. If the thread was okay in WCT, then her posts were in no way out of line. That's a question of the actual rule, not TEia.
2.) The staff was silently condoning violations of the rules by other members of the staff by allowing this moderator to continue to flaunt the rules;
Again, the rule, not Teia. If the rule is flawed, we work on the rule.
3.) The explanations given by the staff as to why they were allowing this to continue was contradictory, at best, and;
Then your grievance should be with the upper staff who made the decision, not Teia.
4.) Teia was acting contrary to the CoC and the claims of "Teia will not moderate in threads where she has an interest in her opinions" from the Admins (sources can be provided via screenshot to support this claim).
I'm curious, is this something new, or is this the same post from months ago?
So, is it now harassment to reply in a thread and not derail it in order to reinforce points?
At this point? Yes. The senior staff is of the opinion that your posts are harassment and, until you show otherwise, we're going to treat them as such. If you show at some point that your interests are with making the site better and not a personal crusade against a moderator you dislike, then it's no longer harassment. But that's up to you to prove it to us.
On a personal note, I have reached the point where I believe this is specifically about Teia as a person, not as a mod or as a poster. Nothing you have posted lately has change my opinion on it, only reinforced it. When confronted with why you actually were asked to stop posting about her, you didn't defend yourself. You continued to attack her. That shows where your attention is, and that is enough to show me that this is about Teia for you.
Bah. I can kinda see where people are coming from with the whole Teia thing. It just seems like no one can criticize or disagree with Teia, be it about her views in Outside Magic threads or her moderation style, without a dozen people(read MTGS administration) jumping to her defense and telling the complainer that they are wrong. Why is that?
Are you talking about this thread? If that's the case, you are correct, Teia did moderate posts in a thread that she was "interested" in. But did you even look at the posts she modded or infracted?
I don't see an agenda there. I just see Teia taking care of basic forum violations (which happens to be exactly what her position calls her to do).
And if it makes you feel any better, I would have infracted the same exact posts.
I'd also point out that in the thread where I received a suspension shortly after she became a moderator, I was cited for "trolling", something considered a "legitimate reason" by anyone who has ever been a moderator. It was, however, decided that she shouldn't have moderated at all no matter the reasoning because it was a topic she had very vocal opinions on. Because it was a "legitimate reason" id not excuse her of the conflict of interest.
I will also note that I made mention that I agreed that many of those posts needed moderation and I would not argue against that, but I would argue against who moderated them because of that conflict of interest.
We're coming back to where we were four months ago in WCT...
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
Bah. I can kinda see where people are coming from with the whole Teia thing. It just seems like no one can criticize or disagree with Teia, be it about her views in Outside Magic threads or her moderation style, without a dozen people(read MTGS administration) jumping to her defense and telling the complainer that they are wrong. Why is that?
I'm completely fine with complaints about Teia. But when it's a select group of people who do it continuously, without relenting and without seeing progress or a change, there's an issue.
It's not a question of it being about Teia. It's a question of it being relentless attacks against a moderator that come up in every thread in CI.
I will also note that I made mention that I agreed that many of those posts needed moderation and I would not argue against that, but I would argue against who moderated them because of that conflict of interest.
But that brings me back to this: How would those posts I linked to have the problem of a conflict of interest? She was in there, as a moderator, to handle basic forum violations. Where is the conflict of interest there? Vocal opinions don't influence infractions over simple broken rules. I don't see a conflict of interest in those infractions above -- do you?
About Frox: for nearly 10 years, Frox has been helping women look good and feel great in easy-fit, mix-and-match, and work-to-weekend with just a few pieces by helping them make the right choices when it comes to clothing and accessories.
I'm willing to admit I've made mistakes. For instance, I didn't follow up in the interview that you wanted. I simply forgot. I know I've made other mistakes too, and I'm glad to work on them. I have been, actually, for a while.
Outside the purview of this discussion, and I never really bothered to care after you said you forgot and you apologized. I had assumed from the start it wasn't going to happen, but I put the olive branch out there to begin with just to prove I was willing to work to fix what was going on, and to fix what damage I may have caused. You even noted yourself as much.
If you're going to spout false information about what the staff has done, the staff is going to come in and say 'well, no, this is how it actually went'. And if that false information you posted causes issues, I'm going to blame you for the issue.
When you're not given any type of reasoning besides "the staff believes", then that leads one to make assumptions based on available data.
We've been actively working with Teia for a while. And we went from many, many users complaining about Teia back in September/October to just a very scant few. That looks like progress to me. And yet you continue on your crusade.
Just because people aren't complaining en masse does not mean that the problems do not exist. As I pointed out, we had an issue months ago where Teia was moderating threads where there was a noticeable conflict of interest. It didn't matter as to how valid the reasons were, she was told not to do it again. Four months later, she's still doing it, and once again the staff is defending actions they have said "will stop".
That "progress" you mentioned will stop very soon if it continues.
It actually is harassment. You've been actively gunning for her continuously. I can look at your posting history in CI and see that you mention her just about once every three posts. If not more than that. You're actively aiming for her, and you haven't stopped even though the staff is obviously not agreeing with you.
When she is the topic of conversation, it's not hard to mention the person's name.
Then let's work on deciding when the Debate threads need to be moved. If the thread was okay in WCT, then her posts were in no way out of line. That's a question of the actual rule, not TEia.
We tried. We have been given multiple, contradictory answers from multiple moderators, and been told "it's at moderator discretion".
Again, the rule, not Teia. If the rule is flawed, we work on the rule.
The rule itself is not flawed, the moderators deciding not to enforce it is what is flawed.
Then your grievance should be with the upper staff who made the decision, not Teia.
The staff in general should have handled it. They didn't. In fact, the staff defended such actions. At that point, it's an issue of "do as we say, not as we do". You can't get a response that will be remotely partial if that's the case.
I'm curious, is this something new, or is this the same post from months ago?
Yes, to both. You can view what I am saying in the links Frox provided.
At this point? Yes. The senior staff is of the opinion that your posts are harassment and, until you show otherwise, we're going to treat them as such. If you show at some point that your interests are with making the site better and not a personal crusade against a moderator you dislike, then it's no longer harassment. But that's up to you to prove it to us.
So if moderators are repeatedly called on the carpet for their decisions, it is because the users are the problem and not the moderator? I have made it clear: I do not like Teia's attitude. As a person, I can't spea for how I would react to Teia, except that if the attitude was the same I would have nothing to do with her. I don't get that luxury if I want to post here.
On a personal note, I have reached the point where I believe this is specifically about Teia as a person, not as a mod or as a poster. Nothing you have posted lately has change my opinion on it, only reinforced it. When confronted with why you actually were asked to stop posting about her, you didn't defend yourself. You continued to attack her. That shows where your attention is, and that is enough to show me that this is about Teia for you.
Your opinion. There's no need to "Defend myself" from people who don't even levy attacks beyond, "It's harassment" and "leave her alone". A defense requires necessity in order to do so. When you come to me with actual charges, I will gladly - and publicly - defend myself.
Quote from Frox »
But that brings me back to this: How would those posts I linked to have the problem of a conflict of interest? She was in there, as a moderator, to handle basic forum violations. Where is the conflict of interest there? Vocal opinions don't influence infractions over simple broken rules. I don't see a conflict of interest in those infractions above -- do you?
Could we not also argue that she was also in there as a moderator making her opinions public? We have gone over this before: the validity of the infractions is not in dispute, but rather the perception of conflict of interest. It would be no different than if you were doing the same thing in a topic where you had been on a "Crusade"for years.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
To anyone not sure why we asked USMCFahey to stop this.... Please read the OP. Then read the posts since he posted here today. That is why. Just in case you were curious or thought we were nuts.
What does need to be said is that this discussion, that of Fahey, Harkius, and CorpT doesn't belong in this thread. This is about the discussion of the changes that are being discussed, how we're working to make the site better, so on and so forth.
Fahey, if you'd like to continue this discussion, please move it to my helpdesk.
What does need to be said is that this discussion, that of Fahey, Harkius, and CorpT doesn't belong in this thread. This is about the discussion of the changes that are being discussed, how we're working to make the site better, so on and so forth.
Fahey, if you'd like to continue this discussion, please move it to my helpdesk.
I think I pointed this fact out twice in this thread and requested the same thing. The staff continued it. -.-
Now, it should be over if this is going to be followed by the staff.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
We've been actively working with Teia for a while. And we went from many, many users complaining about Teia back in September/October to just a very scant few. That looks like progress to me. And yet you continue on your crusade.
This makes me feel bad. I still don't like Teia, but I just don't complain about them. I kinda get how people start to get a feeling of "I must make my unhapiness heard!", cause if you don't people think things go well.
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Respect is earned, not given. Only people who feel entitled or people who have a small amount of power feel that those without the same power are obligated to respect them.
You salute the rank and position in the military, not the man.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
The comment Fahey was suspended for was in a thread and in direct reply to other comments regarding teia. There was no derailing there.
But, Community Issues is a forum where Community Issues are discussed. Policy changes based on those discussion and we refer people to these threads all the time. As a type of on-going debate we want the record to be as clear and intact as we can.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
You can "earn" the respect of your higher-ups but not the respect of those you are expected to lead. I know that I dealt with many NCOs in my time that had not earned the respect of the people they lead, but they did enough things to "please the higher-ups" that it was difficult to do anything about it.
I know of one Sergeant, for example, who was absolutely loathed by her troops under her command, but was literally sleeping with the company commander.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
I give respect freely. The whole "earn respect" thing is very old fashioned in the context of being a person on the internet... and now usually used as an excuse for being disrespectful towards another person. Even based on your own observable behavior, you respect people until they do something that bothers you and then you lose respect for them. Not quite the same thing as earning respect though.
After the requests to leave her alone was made. Yes.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
If everyone is given respect, then respect has no meaning. It should be something you strive to achieve, not something you expect to be given no matter what.
Then it is, "Don't talk about Teia or to Teia, at all." Once again, you have pretty much told me:
1.) Don't post in WCT.
2.) Don't post in threads where Teia is posting.
3.) If you have a problem with Teia, we don't care.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
If you don't understand the difference between posting respectful posts in WCT and stalking a mod, scrutinizing every single action she makes, then I think you are okay to adopt your list of 3 there.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
kcw's appeal
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
"Respect" is something given to people who have earned the right to be treated decently by me. Someone who has habitually called me a bigot, as well as acting contrary to what she has said/what has been said she has been told loses my respect, and thus my willingness to be more lenient drops as well.
Someone who has also treated people like absolute crap is also undeserving of my respect. If you need to be reminded of what I mean, go re-read the posts by Teia during the WCT rules fiasco.
At this point, I would like to request that this line of debate/argument be made into a new thread in CI and the "State of the Community" thread be left to live or die as the community sees fit. As has been said, this is not the place for this.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
CorpT, you were specifically asked to take part in the mod-only thread that you have access to instead of only lurking and reporting posts. You were making people feel uncomfortable with your presence because they felt you were spying on them. Instead of taking this to heart and joining a community ready to welcome you, you left because we didn't want you reporting posts you didn't like.
Fahey, you've been bringing up Teia in threads where she doesn't even belong. The upper staff has noticed it, and it's been an ongoing problem. We decided to ask you to stop doing this, as bringing her up in threads where she's a tangent at best is harassment. It isn't something I'd allow to be done to you, and it's not something the staff is going to accept being done to one of the mods here. Not only did you laugh this off elsewhere, you then proceeded to do exactly what you were asked not to do. Furthermore, the suspension you got for violating that mod request was actually more lenient than you should have gotten. You have no room to complain.
Harkius, you're the one that upsets me the most. Mainly because you actually got your request granted, even though it was against our wishes. Deleting your posts throughout the site will actually cause threads to become unreadable in certain cases. Original posts of threads will vanish. Things people replied to suddenly aren't there. But you got permission anyways, after some time (and in this case an ownership change). We asked that you leave CI alone because we actually refer back to posts to get information. Things like Gloves, for example.
If you three want to do better for this site, then be constructive. Don't complain constantly. CorpT, you want to bring up a problem you have with mods? You were invited to step in and talk. So do it, don't angst because they don't want you to act the spy. Fahey, you have a problem with a mod? Bring it up to them directly. Or an admin directly. And understand that if you get overruled, that's it. End of story. You don't get to go on a crusade. And Harkius? You were asked a very small concession on your request. We made our compromise. You need to accept that, since it's a lot more than we wanted to do.
Your feedback is welcomed and accepted, and we act on it. But acting like a spoiled child not getting their way is not the way to help out. There are times when you don't get your way. Or times when something you suggest gets put on the backburner because more important things come up. Or times when your suggestion is simply not the best choice at the time. You need to understand and accept this, because this endless series of complaints here simply gets people to ignore you and no longer be willing to work with you. It doesn't suddenly get attention.
At the end of the day, how you bring up your grievances is going to decide exactly how seriously people take you; if you're pleasant and willing to talk, I'm going to be willing to talk to you, work with you, and try to find a way to make us all happy with an improved 'Salvation. If you decide to be a jerk, to harass people, to make unreasonable demands and then decide to rant publicly if you don't get your way, you're simply not going to be taken seriously and the staff will turn to the next person who's willing to be civilized.
My helpdesk should you need me.
This was quite a while ago now, and after that I have not handled any direct moderation towards Harkius on the account of our unfriendly relationship. The other tSpy mods were fine with this action.
First off, I didn't "laugh it off" in another place. I posted the "request" in it's entirety, as well as my response. I also stated that someone was immature to even think it was necessary. No, the way I worded it wasn't nice, but considering the fact that the staff has to jump through hoops to cover Teia's mess-ups and try to fix things, it only serves to further drive a wedge between the users and the staff. But then again, when people throw around ideas such as hacking an account to get at private messages, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I also shouldn't be surprised that once again, the users are blamed.
Second, it's not harassment when the moderator-in-question is the subject of the thread that I responded to. I would also point out that I was far more lenient in how I responded in it, and in every instance pointed out that:
1.) Teia was acting contrary to what she said concerning debate threads;
2.) The staff was silently condoning violations of the rules by other members of the staff by allowing this moderator to continue to flaunt the rules;
3.) The explanations given by the staff as to why they were allowing this to continue was contradictory, at best, and;
4.) Teia was acting contrary to the CoC and the claims of "Teia will not moderate in threads where she has an interest in her opinions" from the Admins (sources can be provided via screenshot to support this claim).
So, is it now harassment to reply in a thread and not derail it in order to reinforce points?
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
Usually when discussing things in debate or what not. Ill respond to what others have posted by simply saying that I disagree with their point of view based on (whatever reasoning I have to disagree with it, including any facts/sources to back up my own point of view on the discussion. Ill never call out the person for their personal point of view, Ill simply argue the points given. If someone posts about their own personal experiences, then thats fine, I may then post my own personal experiences, or those experiences of those I know that have experienced similar things in order to provide my own perspective to the discussion/debate.
As far as the respect stuff goes. The way I look at respect, is that everyone starts out with a certain, small level towards anyone they may not know, or have recently met. From there, based upon the person's actions, that respect can grow, or it can diminish from that initial starting level. It is true that a high level of respect is something that must be earned. I personally have respect for every mod here, simply for the willingness to take on such a task of helping to moderate and keep the site running smoothly. Some mods I have more respect for than others due to the actions I have seen them take, how they respond to things, and just their general demeanor towards myself or others on the site.
I agree that we should have the ability to remove or modify our posts if we wish to do so. However, I also understand that due to the nature of discussion and the fact that many people, including myself, dont always reply directly to posts but rather just reply in general to the discussion in the thread without quoting, taking out a large amount of posts from a thread can make it very difficult for people to be able to read/understand what was going on, since there would now be large holes in the discussion and much of it would no longer make sense or flow properly without it. Just something I thought about when the topic was brought up in this thread.
Anyhow, Ive got to get going. I would simply ask that everyone try to keep an open mind to the perspectives of everyone else, and try to treat others with as much respect and kindness as you would want to be treated with. It can also help to try to put yourselves in their positions as well, try to understand where they are coming from and why they are doing/saying what they are. Thats what I try to do anyway.
Censor evasion
Censor evasion and then after-mod-text editing
Flaming
Merging a double-post
Flaming
Obvious spam
Obvious spam
Inappropriate material
Censor evasion
I don't see an agenda there. I just see Teia taking care of basic forum violations (which happens to be exactly what her position calls her to do).
And if it makes you feel any better, I would have infracted the same exact posts.
(Click to enter the Frox Experience)
About Frox: for nearly 10 years, Frox has been helping women look good and feel great in easy-fit, mix-and-match, and work-to-weekend with just a few pieces by helping them make the right choices when it comes to clothing and accessories.
And once again the staff is being blamed.
I'm willing to admit I've made mistakes. For instance, I didn't follow up in the interview that you wanted. I simply forgot. I know I've made other mistakes too, and I'm glad to work on them. I have been, actually, for a while.
If you're going to spout false information about what the staff has done, the staff is going to come in and say 'well, no, this is how it actually went'. And if that false information you posted causes issues, I'm going to blame you for the issue.
We've been actively working with Teia for a while. And we went from many, many users complaining about Teia back in September/October to just a very scant few. That looks like progress to me. And yet you continue on your crusade.
It actually is harassment. You've been actively gunning for her continuously. I can look at your posting history in CI and see that you mention her just about once every three posts. If not more than that. You're actively aiming for her, and you haven't stopped even though the staff is obviously not agreeing with you.
Then let's work on deciding when the Debate threads need to be moved. If the thread was okay in WCT, then her posts were in no way out of line. That's a question of the actual rule, not TEia.
Again, the rule, not Teia. If the rule is flawed, we work on the rule.
Then your grievance should be with the upper staff who made the decision, not Teia.
I'm curious, is this something new, or is this the same post from months ago?
At this point? Yes. The senior staff is of the opinion that your posts are harassment and, until you show otherwise, we're going to treat them as such. If you show at some point that your interests are with making the site better and not a personal crusade against a moderator you dislike, then it's no longer harassment. But that's up to you to prove it to us.
On a personal note, I have reached the point where I believe this is specifically about Teia as a person, not as a mod or as a poster. Nothing you have posted lately has change my opinion on it, only reinforced it. When confronted with why you actually were asked to stop posting about her, you didn't defend yourself. You continued to attack her. That shows where your attention is, and that is enough to show me that this is about Teia for you.
My helpdesk should you need me.
I'd also point out that in the thread where I received a suspension shortly after she became a moderator, I was cited for "trolling", something considered a "legitimate reason" by anyone who has ever been a moderator. It was, however, decided that she shouldn't have moderated at all no matter the reasoning because it was a topic she had very vocal opinions on. Because it was a "legitimate reason" id not excuse her of the conflict of interest.
I will also note that I made mention that I agreed that many of those posts needed moderation and I would not argue against that, but I would argue against who moderated them because of that conflict of interest.
We're coming back to where we were four months ago in WCT...
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
I'm completely fine with complaints about Teia. But when it's a select group of people who do it continuously, without relenting and without seeing progress or a change, there's an issue.
It's not a question of it being about Teia. It's a question of it being relentless attacks against a moderator that come up in every thread in CI.
My helpdesk should you need me.
(Click to enter the Frox Experience)
About Frox: for nearly 10 years, Frox has been helping women look good and feel great in easy-fit, mix-and-match, and work-to-weekend with just a few pieces by helping them make the right choices when it comes to clothing and accessories.
Outside the purview of this discussion, and I never really bothered to care after you said you forgot and you apologized. I had assumed from the start it wasn't going to happen, but I put the olive branch out there to begin with just to prove I was willing to work to fix what was going on, and to fix what damage I may have caused. You even noted yourself as much.
When you're not given any type of reasoning besides "the staff believes", then that leads one to make assumptions based on available data.
Just because people aren't complaining en masse does not mean that the problems do not exist. As I pointed out, we had an issue months ago where Teia was moderating threads where there was a noticeable conflict of interest. It didn't matter as to how valid the reasons were, she was told not to do it again. Four months later, she's still doing it, and once again the staff is defending actions they have said "will stop".
That "progress" you mentioned will stop very soon if it continues.
When she is the topic of conversation, it's not hard to mention the person's name.
We tried. We have been given multiple, contradictory answers from multiple moderators, and been told "it's at moderator discretion".
The rule itself is not flawed, the moderators deciding not to enforce it is what is flawed.
The staff in general should have handled it. They didn't. In fact, the staff defended such actions. At that point, it's an issue of "do as we say, not as we do". You can't get a response that will be remotely partial if that's the case.
Yes, to both. You can view what I am saying in the links Frox provided.
So if moderators are repeatedly called on the carpet for their decisions, it is because the users are the problem and not the moderator? I have made it clear: I do not like Teia's attitude. As a person, I can't spea for how I would react to Teia, except that if the attitude was the same I would have nothing to do with her. I don't get that luxury if I want to post here.
Your opinion. There's no need to "Defend myself" from people who don't even levy attacks beyond, "It's harassment" and "leave her alone". A defense requires necessity in order to do so. When you come to me with actual charges, I will gladly - and publicly - defend myself.
Could we not also argue that she was also in there as a moderator making her opinions public? We have gone over this before: the validity of the infractions is not in dispute, but rather the perception of conflict of interest. It would be no different than if you were doing the same thing in a topic where you had been on a "Crusade"for years.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Fahey, if you'd like to continue this discussion, please move it to my helpdesk.
My helpdesk should you need me.
I think I pointed this fact out twice in this thread and requested the same thing. The staff continued it. -.-
Now, it should be over if this is going to be followed by the staff.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
This makes me feel bad. I still don't like Teia, but I just don't complain about them. I kinda get how people start to get a feeling of "I must make my unhapiness heard!", cause if you don't people think things go well.