Under any normal set of circumstances, I'd probably never dream of advocating this, but CorpT's suggestion of shutting down CI, but on a short-term basis, may actually be a pretty decent idea.
A month or so for things to calm down in here and for people to cool off would probably be a good way to reset the table, and if the staff doesn't bite off any serious tasks in the meantime it can work on the suggestions that have already been made and handle anything else that may come up in the meantime through other channels.
It ought to help break the cycle and put to rest the bad blood on either side.
...and if the staff doesn't bite off any serious tasks in the meantime...
Yeah, well, that's where the problems with this idea start. I'm a firm believer in Murphy's Law, and its application here says that if we close down CI for a month, we're liable to get some kind of ridiculous wave of stuff that would practically require CI to be reopened. (And if we just reopened it on a temporary basis, it's going to drag this out to something like three months or worse.)
To be honest, I'd say that we should take a small slice of the staff - one admin, two globs, and two to four regular mods - and put them on CI-only duty for the month, and everyone else on staff is told to ignore things in CI on pain of banishment to the Elemental Plane of Kittens (current pressure: 16.2meowgapascals and climbing). This lets most of the staff concentrate on getting things actually done in that timespan without running into the potential for ridiculousness that would happen if CI were temporarily closed down entirely.
Quite possible. But, I suppose if everyone took some personal responsibility for the current state of Community Issues and they self-imposed gag orders it could help. You know, if it isn't that big of a deal, don't treat it like it is. This is NOT a recreational part of the forum.
I know, my job requires that I post here, but a lot of you would actually have a more enjoyable time just going to... anywhere else on MTGS.
We should take pride in NOT posting in CI!
This Sub-Forum has worked 2 days
without a new thread.
Oh, no, that doesn't work. Too many sigs, too many customs, too many veiled statements drag you back in.
Yeah. It has been brought up that CI is actually a forum designed specifically for the CI Forum users. There are people that post more here than anywhere else.
Well, at this point, I imagine I've typed all that could possibly be of any use and have probably proceeded to the eye-bleeding stage. I'll see how long I can contribute by shutting up my fat fingers for a while.
Yeah. It has been brought up that CI is actually a forum designed specifically for the CI Forum users. There are people that post more here than anywhere else.
Yeah, well. No more Gutter for to let us vent, and all that.
O_o
Quite possible. But, I suppose if everyone took some personal responsibility for the current state of Community Issues and they self-imposed gag orders it could help. You know, if it isn't that big of a deal, don't treat it like it is. This is NOT a recreational part of the forum.
I know, my job requires that I post here, but a lot of you would actually have a more enjoyable time just going to... anywhere else on MTGS.
We should take pride in NOT posting in CI!
No, we should take pride in people being able to post issues and concerns in CI without the threads devolving into ****storms.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
No, we should take pride in people being able to post issues and concerns in CI without the threads devolving into ****storms.
I suppose, but in my ideal world the staff would communicate better to prevent some of it... then people would follow the appropriate channels with the appropriate amount of rage... and then CI would mostly be about stuff going on in the forum... and then what you said.
I suppose, but in my ideal world the staff would communicate better to prevent some of it... then people would follow the appropriate channels with the appropriate amount of rage... and then CI would mostly be about stuff going on in the forum... and then what you said.
At the risk of sounding like a stereotypical Marine officer/paranoid bastard, "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
Feel free to dismiss this as sour grapes/cynicism/whatever, but here's my view of the situation:
There will always be users who complain no matter what the staff does.
Part of where the staff has gone wrong is taking good ideas - truly listening to user concerns, being open and transparent about decisions, expecting professional behavior from staff - and not applying them appropriately.
The fact is that the vast majority of what gets posted in CI deserves to be ignored. A big part of what makes an effective admin is navigating through the sludge of butthurt and identifying what issues and complaints are worthy of attention, which complaints are valid opportunities for improvement, and ignoring the rest.
This sets the tone for the rest of the staff. If you ignore everything, you perpetuate negative practices, bad situations, and abusive moderation. If you respond to everything, you encourage drama and burn out mods who feel constantly under scrutiny.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
Part of where the staff has gone wrong is taking good ideas - truly listening to user concerns, being open and transparent about decisions, expecting professional behavior from staff - and not applying them appropriately.
I just wanted to point out that it seems to me that there are staff who do their best to encompass these qualities, and those are the staff who have been regarded the most highly.
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I'm going to say my peace here and then go back to mafia'ing.
I see the root of these problems as philosophical. By this, I mean ALL. Of. These. Problems. Somewhere along the way, I think that Salvation lost sight of who it is, as an entity. I personally think that it's a wonderful thing to have all of these subcommunities and non-Magic forums -- I don't want where I'm going with this to be taken as an attack on those forums. As I said previously in other threads, I am first and foremost a Legacy player. The Source has a far superior Legacy community, and as such I post about Magic there, not here. Here, I currently live in the Mafia forum (which I suppose is a step up from just lurking). So, when I say that Salvation has lost sight of itself, I will reiterate that I do not mean that as an attack on any subforum.
Communities are people, in digital realities. We all bring with us our own experiences, our own interests, personalities, histories, likes and dislikes. The Internet takes the concept of America-as-melting-pot and exemplifies it to its utmost potential. In that blending, as Fnord, Azrael, myself, Sene, Nai, Kpaca, Manders, etc etc etc all become one, something new emerges out of that whole. The community that we form has its own personality -- its own sense of self. I becomes We. Go read some Gaia Theory, then come back.
Over time, any community's personality will change. That goes without saying. As the tide of members ebbs and flows, the "We" of Salvation develops in new ways. And while I can't crook my finger and point ominously shouting "BACK IN MY DAY," like some of my esteemed fellow posters, I think it's very, very safe to say that Salvation, as a Digital Gaian Entity, is in a very dark place right now. I attribute this to the community losing its way, philosophical.
I believe that the most important question that NEEDS to be asked right this minute, is the following. I'll even blow it up for you, so that if you skim my post and decide that I'm spouting a bunch of nonsense, you'll at least see it:
Who is MTG Salvation, right now? Who -should- MTG Salvation aspire to be?
Until that question is answered, until we have a solid philosophical ground to operate from, I believe that the issues that we have seen repeatedly crop up over the past few months are going to continue to crop up. We don't know who we are anymore, and until we recover that sense of self, we CANNOT move forward.
Now, since I'm not a member of the Powers That Be Club, nor do I have any intention on becoming one, I am going to put forth my personal philosophical vision of Salvation. And maybe TPTB will just deride it quietly in their minds, laughing at my foppish ignorance. Or, maybe, just maybe, it'll take root in some fertile mind somewhere and actually grow into something wondrous. Either way, this is my soapbox. These are my twenty minutes of your time, and I intend to occupy them for good or ill.
My answers to the above question, then:
--) Who is Salvation, right now?
I think Salvation can be summed in two words: Petty, and Scared. Half of the site seems to be terrified of the possibility for change that the Curse deal represents. They're lashing out because they're scared. The other half seems to be taking advantage of this opportunity to cause chaos. As per the Dark Knight, in one of the truest lines ever writ in cinematic form: "Some men just want to watch the world burn."
Now, obviously I don't have the full story. At this point, everything has become so confused that I don't know if ANYONE has the full story. From what I've seen, however, it is my -opinion- that someone(s) in a position of power took the opportunity that the chaos of the Curse deal represented and decided to have some fun with it, at the expense of a now-banned group of members.
I do not doubt, at ALL, that this is the case. I also do not doubt at ALL that most of the staff find this idea repugnant, and have been lashing out to some degree because they have been lumped in with this individual(s). When the common man has an issue, he doesn't care who the individual target of his ire might be. He attacks Government, with a capital G. They're in charge, so clearly they're to blame, right? Never mind that while yeah, you've got your bad apples -- but there are good people, too. And more often than not, it's the good people that pay for the mistakes of their fellows.
My thought on this section is that, regrettably, I'm not sure how to oust any bad apples that might be lurking amongst the staff. So, I'm afraid that we may have to deal with the petty portion for now -- unless certain among the banned members are unbanned, and we can paint a complete picture of who message whom when, regarding what. That also assumes an earnest behavior and a truthful composure on behalf of all parties involved, which may be too much to ask for at this point.
As for the scared half, however, I believe that this can be addressed, and I believe that the best way, possibly the only way, to stand in the face of the Curse deal, is to render it laughable. Let's be honest here, the deal has already dragged on for some time. It's still there, looming, but it looms as a child's closet shadow-monster. It's a phantom. Maybe the deal will go through, and we'll have to accept our new Curse overlords. But, frankly, I suspect that there is an equal chance at this point that we are going to continue to be left to our own devices. Either the Curse deal falls through, or it takes so interminably long that it may as well have fallen through for the intents of the current staff body and user base. Maybe the Staff have to make some periodic changes or engage in some private discussions regarding Curse, but I think that for the time being, we should all act as though it is not going to happen. We need to stop being afraid of the possibility of change -- this fear has debilitated the site's identity. We don't know who we should be, because we don't know if who we believe we should be will agree with who Curse believes we should be.
--) Who should Salvation aspire to be?
This is my own, personal vision.
Salvation's primary identity has always been and will hopefully always continue to be the home of spoilers. Whenever a new set is looming, or a new rumor has been broached, people come here to find out about it.
So, whenever there isn't anything happening spoiler-wise (like right now), who are we?
A community.
We all exist as individuals within that community. We all have our own separate interests. Mafia, custom sets, philosophical and intellectual discussion, advice-giving as one person to another.
What are we a community of?
Magic players. I believe that 95% of the people here, are here because they play(ed) Magic, at some point in their lives. There are quite a few, I'm sure, who have since quit playing, but have stuck around because of the friends they made here.
So, there are a couple of possibilities here. You can try to reinvigorate things like this site's writing, but you're probably never going to be able to keep up with the content that places like SCG and CFB can provide. You've got occasional skilled players that wander through, but they don't have any sense of loyalty to Salvation as a DGE. It may be a place that they visit, but it is not their "home" in digital reality. You can try to make the various format forums better, but Legacy is never going to trump Source. That being said, the EDH, Standard, and Cube forums at least are all pretty good already. I haven't visited the Modern forums much, but I believe that is something I would place a heavy emphasis on. Modern seems to be a format that is going to be mean a lot to Wizards, so placing a heavy emphasis on Modern as a supported format on Salvation would mean a lot. This is one area in particular where I would try to find some good writers. SCG and CFB only pay attention to Eternal formats when it suits them (aka, for a GP or Pro Tour). If you can establish yourselves as a powerful force in the Modern world, that would go a long way.
So, to sum up this section by way of tl;dr:
I see Salvation as a DGE composed of people who care about spoilers; of people who once cared about spoilers but now care about the friends that they have made here; of people who enjoy the diverse paths that are open to those who tend to enjoy Magic (aka, Magic players like mafia, creating custom cards, debate, etc); and of people who play Magic and want to talk about it.
I see Salvation as a flicker, a ghostly shadow of a possible future. In the absence of philosophy can be discovered a canvas, a blank opportunity bursting with creative potentiality. There is a chance, a slim one, perhaps, but a chance nonetheless, to make something great here. Salvation could be a beacon for the Magic community as a whole, embracing new players with open arms and standing proud as a top-drawer place to discuss Modern, to help people improve at the game that we all love(d), and to hang out with people who have similar interests. If the site undergoes a transformation into a more welcoming facade with more laid-back rules based around Lines in the Sand, as opposed to strict "Thou Shalt Nots," I truly believe that Salvation's golden years might yet be ahead of her, as opposed to rotting in the distant, crumbling past.
I do not believe that now is a time for silence. The time for silence, for mourning, has passed. Now is a time for debate, for discussion, for making a better future. The best time for such a thing is when all parties are frustrated, because in frustration lies motivation. When everyone is happy, nobody will want to change anything for fear of damaging that happiness. Now, however, when everything is blood and thunder; now, you can enact change. Now you can improve. Where else is there to go, but up?
All should be involved in this. We are Salvation, and Salvation is who WE make her. Will we make Salvation a place of bitterness and resentment, wallowing in the past like a group of fat pigs waiting for the slaughtermaster, or will we stand tall as men and women capable of intellectual discourse, building a better future together?
Feel free to dismiss this as sour grapes/cynicism/whatever, but here's my view of the situation:
There will always be users who complain no matter what the staff does.
...
The fact is that the vast majority of what gets posted in CI deserves to be ignored. A big part of what makes an effective admin is navigating through the sludge of butthurt and identifying what issues and complaints are worthy of attention, which complaints are valid opportunities for improvement, and ignoring the rest.
That was quite possibly the least cynical thing you could have said! It's that reality we are trying to work with... People will complain, so our job is just to figure out how do we do a better job of doing our job. Job.
@SilverSihhe - I feel like I should know who you are, but that was good stuff. There is an identity crisis here and the staff has tried to shape that identity in the past ... and people ran them out of town because it wasn't inline with their idea of what the site is about. Closing the Gutter was about that - and we lost how many members and moderators? You might be right about pushing the spoilers* though. I think what happens is a lot of us start there, find the rest of the site, and then forget that the front door really says "Spoilers." Perspective amongst the staff (entrenched) and CI Heros (entrenched) might have been lost to some degree. This site isn't about the staff lounge or the Gutter... it's about what those other 98% are doing.
Are we on the same wave length here?
* - I don't really know how to do that in a way that makes us "the spoiler site" as opposed to "the spoiler spoiler site" without burning bridges with Wizards of the Coast. We sort of want them to get along with us and stuff
@SilverSihhe - I feel like I should know who you are, but that was good stuff. There is an identity crisis here and the staff has tried to shape that identity in the past ... and people ran them out of town because it wasn't inline with their idea of what the site is about. Closing the Gutter was about that - and we lost how many members and moderators? You might be right about pushing the spoilers* though. I think what happens is a lot of us start there, find the rest of the site, and then forget that the front door really says "Spoilers." Perspective amongst the staff (entrenched) and CI Heros (entrenched) might have been lost to some degree. This site isn't about the staff lounge or the Gutter... it's about what those other 98% are doing.
Are we on the same wave length here?
* - I don't really know how to do that in a way that makes us "the spoiler site" as opposed to "the spoiler spoiler site" without burning bridges with Wizards of the Coast. We sort of want them to get along with us and stuff
I believe we are on the same wavelength, yes. Also, I'm not a gimmick if that's what you're thinking -- I'm just some dude =)
As for your asterisks section -- I mean, it's a touchy subject. From my personal perspective, there are ALWAYS going to be spoilers. That will never change. The music industry clamped down on leaks as hard as they could, and it still happened. Etc. I think that there's a lot to be said for having all of the spoilers collected in one place, and for that one place to be granted "accepted" status by Wizards. It's going to happen anyway. I'm just of the opinion that Wizards stands a lot to gain (and nothing to lose) by recognizing that fact and realizing that they actually sell more product as it gets hyped by the spoilers.
That's going to dip into economics and PR and other icky subjects, and there's obviously the challenging subject of getting Wizards to actually understand that concept. But bottom-line, a spoiler site like Salvation will ALWAYS exist. WotC stands a lot to gain by playing nice with Salvation in that regard, rather than trying to run hardball and have 10 more sites just like her crop up.
At the same time, playing footsies with Wizards will likely add in another layer of restrictions and more "prying eyes," and we know how well that went over, now, with Curse. I dunno. I believe that there is a solution, but it's definitely a messy topic.
* - I don't really know how to do that in a way that makes us "the spoiler site" as opposed to "the spoiler spoiler site" without burning bridges with Wizards of the Coast. We sort of want them to get along with us and stuff
It might not be the choice that the staff wants to make, but maybe the best thing to do is just burn that bridge if you want to focus on the spoilers.
It might not be the choice that the staff wants to make, but maybe the best thing to do is just burn that bridge if you want to focus on the spoilers.
Personally, it all seems like a decision the owner - the one with financial and legal stake in the site - needs to deal with. I know that I am not going to support kicking a hornet's nest until it's made clear that that's my job and that I have operator's insurance. Even then I have ethical issues with that and probably wouldn't stick around to see whatever fallout there may be.
I think they should just ban all the posters who only post here and in th Non-magic related boards.
It's a board about magic, yet they just kick it in WTC, here, gutter, speak easy etc.
I've actually seen people who admit they haven't played the game in years, but still suck up the place with their nonsense.
"The mods and admins are crappy because I'm an unadjusted introvert who got an infraction for being creepy/disruptive/annoying/stupid... On a board about a game I don't play"
Then they come here and ***** more.
This is a message board about magic. Lets keep it that way. If you don't play magic anymore move along. I heard 4chan likes stupidity and *****ing, go there.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
This is a message board about magic. Lets keep it that way. If you don't play magic anymore move along. I heard 4chan likes stupidity and *****ing, go there.
I understand this line of thinking and as a "hardcore Casual" MTG player I come here for game - never played Mafia, posted in the Gutter, joined a clan. But, I think that for a long time this place has been a site not for MTG, but for the people of MTGS. So, calling for the termination of half the boards here would mean we lose a huge part of what this place is ACTUALLY about. Instead of getting rid of those I'd like to see better coverage of the game... but how?
I understand this line of thinking and as a "hardcore Casual" MTG player I come here for game - never played Mafia, posted in the Gutter, joined a clan. But, I think that for a long time this place has been a site not for MTG, but for the people of MTGS. So, calling for the termination of half the boards here would mean we lose a huge part of what this place is ACTUALLY about. Instead of getting rid of those I'd like to see better coverage of the game... but how?
This. While I agree that it's "too late" to start shutting down the non-Magic forums, since they've been here for eight years and have established communities that enjoy them, I think the site would benefit from putting more emphasis on the MtG part. News, articles, content in general, and making sure the strategy forums are relevant and up to date.
I've already offered to help out on the news bit (at least competitive-related - that's what I know!)
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Mind explaining what you mean by that?
It's not important. Sorry for bringing it up.
Feel free to explain regardless, but no worries
I agree that it should not be, but I'm not convinced that it isn't.
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A month or so for things to calm down in here and for people to cool off would probably be a good way to reset the table, and if the staff doesn't bite off any serious tasks in the meantime it can work on the suggestions that have already been made and handle anything else that may come up in the meantime through other channels.
It ought to help break the cycle and put to rest the bad blood on either side.
To be honest, I'd say that we should take a small slice of the staff - one admin, two globs, and two to four regular mods - and put them on CI-only duty for the month, and everyone else on staff is told to ignore things in CI on pain of banishment to the Elemental Plane of Kittens (current pressure: 16.2meowgapascals and climbing). This lets most of the staff concentrate on getting things actually done in that timespan without running into the potential for ridiculousness that would happen if CI were temporarily closed down entirely.
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Quite possible. But, I suppose if everyone took some personal responsibility for the current state of Community Issues and they self-imposed gag orders it could help. You know, if it isn't that big of a deal, don't treat it like it is. This is NOT a recreational part of the forum.
I know, my job requires that I post here, but a lot of you would actually have a more enjoyable time just going to... anywhere else on MTGS.
We should take pride in NOT posting in CI!
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Oh, no, that doesn't work. Too many sigs, too many customs, too many veiled statements drag you back in.
Yeah. It has been brought up that CI is actually a forum designed specifically for the CI Forum users. There are people that post more here than anywhere else.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
And I'd encourage others to follow suit.
Yeah, well. No more Gutter for to let us vent, and all that.
O_o
No, we should take pride in people being able to post issues and concerns in CI without the threads devolving into ****storms.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
I suppose, but in my ideal world the staff would communicate better to prevent some of it... then people would follow the appropriate channels with the appropriate amount of rage... and then CI would mostly be about stuff going on in the forum... and then what you said.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
At the risk of sounding like a stereotypical Marine officer/paranoid bastard, "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
There will always be users who complain no matter what the staff does.
Part of where the staff has gone wrong is taking good ideas - truly listening to user concerns, being open and transparent about decisions, expecting professional behavior from staff - and not applying them appropriately.
The fact is that the vast majority of what gets posted in CI deserves to be ignored. A big part of what makes an effective admin is navigating through the sludge of butthurt and identifying what issues and complaints are worthy of attention, which complaints are valid opportunities for improvement, and ignoring the rest.
This sets the tone for the rest of the staff. If you ignore everything, you perpetuate negative practices, bad situations, and abusive moderation. If you respond to everything, you encourage drama and burn out mods who feel constantly under scrutiny.
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She knows why.
I just wanted to point out that it seems to me that there are staff who do their best to encompass these qualities, and those are the staff who have been regarded the most highly.
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I'm going to say my peace here and then go back to mafia'ing.
I see the root of these problems as philosophical. By this, I mean ALL. Of. These. Problems. Somewhere along the way, I think that Salvation lost sight of who it is, as an entity. I personally think that it's a wonderful thing to have all of these subcommunities and non-Magic forums -- I don't want where I'm going with this to be taken as an attack on those forums. As I said previously in other threads, I am first and foremost a Legacy player. The Source has a far superior Legacy community, and as such I post about Magic there, not here. Here, I currently live in the Mafia forum (which I suppose is a step up from just lurking). So, when I say that Salvation has lost sight of itself, I will reiterate that I do not mean that as an attack on any subforum.
Communities are people, in digital realities. We all bring with us our own experiences, our own interests, personalities, histories, likes and dislikes. The Internet takes the concept of America-as-melting-pot and exemplifies it to its utmost potential. In that blending, as Fnord, Azrael, myself, Sene, Nai, Kpaca, Manders, etc etc etc all become one, something new emerges out of that whole. The community that we form has its own personality -- its own sense of self. I becomes We. Go read some Gaia Theory, then come back.
Over time, any community's personality will change. That goes without saying. As the tide of members ebbs and flows, the "We" of Salvation develops in new ways. And while I can't crook my finger and point ominously shouting "BACK IN MY DAY," like some of my esteemed fellow posters, I think it's very, very safe to say that Salvation, as a Digital Gaian Entity, is in a very dark place right now. I attribute this to the community losing its way, philosophical.
I believe that the most important question that NEEDS to be asked right this minute, is the following. I'll even blow it up for you, so that if you skim my post and decide that I'm spouting a bunch of nonsense, you'll at least see it:
Who is MTG Salvation, right now? Who -should- MTG Salvation aspire to be?
Until that question is answered, until we have a solid philosophical ground to operate from, I believe that the issues that we have seen repeatedly crop up over the past few months are going to continue to crop up. We don't know who we are anymore, and until we recover that sense of self, we CANNOT move forward.
Now, since I'm not a member of the Powers That Be Club, nor do I have any intention on becoming one, I am going to put forth my personal philosophical vision of Salvation. And maybe TPTB will just deride it quietly in their minds, laughing at my foppish ignorance. Or, maybe, just maybe, it'll take root in some fertile mind somewhere and actually grow into something wondrous. Either way, this is my soapbox. These are my twenty minutes of your time, and I intend to occupy them for good or ill.
My answers to the above question, then:
--) Who is Salvation, right now?
I think Salvation can be summed in two words: Petty, and Scared. Half of the site seems to be terrified of the possibility for change that the Curse deal represents. They're lashing out because they're scared. The other half seems to be taking advantage of this opportunity to cause chaos. As per the Dark Knight, in one of the truest lines ever writ in cinematic form: "Some men just want to watch the world burn."
Now, obviously I don't have the full story. At this point, everything has become so confused that I don't know if ANYONE has the full story. From what I've seen, however, it is my -opinion- that someone(s) in a position of power took the opportunity that the chaos of the Curse deal represented and decided to have some fun with it, at the expense of a now-banned group of members.
I do not doubt, at ALL, that this is the case. I also do not doubt at ALL that most of the staff find this idea repugnant, and have been lashing out to some degree because they have been lumped in with this individual(s). When the common man has an issue, he doesn't care who the individual target of his ire might be. He attacks Government, with a capital G. They're in charge, so clearly they're to blame, right? Never mind that while yeah, you've got your bad apples -- but there are good people, too. And more often than not, it's the good people that pay for the mistakes of their fellows.
My thought on this section is that, regrettably, I'm not sure how to oust any bad apples that might be lurking amongst the staff. So, I'm afraid that we may have to deal with the petty portion for now -- unless certain among the banned members are unbanned, and we can paint a complete picture of who message whom when, regarding what. That also assumes an earnest behavior and a truthful composure on behalf of all parties involved, which may be too much to ask for at this point.
As for the scared half, however, I believe that this can be addressed, and I believe that the best way, possibly the only way, to stand in the face of the Curse deal, is to render it laughable. Let's be honest here, the deal has already dragged on for some time. It's still there, looming, but it looms as a child's closet shadow-monster. It's a phantom. Maybe the deal will go through, and we'll have to accept our new Curse overlords. But, frankly, I suspect that there is an equal chance at this point that we are going to continue to be left to our own devices. Either the Curse deal falls through, or it takes so interminably long that it may as well have fallen through for the intents of the current staff body and user base. Maybe the Staff have to make some periodic changes or engage in some private discussions regarding Curse, but I think that for the time being, we should all act as though it is not going to happen. We need to stop being afraid of the possibility of change -- this fear has debilitated the site's identity. We don't know who we should be, because we don't know if who we believe we should be will agree with who Curse believes we should be.
--) Who should Salvation aspire to be?
This is my own, personal vision.
Salvation's primary identity has always been and will hopefully always continue to be the home of spoilers. Whenever a new set is looming, or a new rumor has been broached, people come here to find out about it.
So, whenever there isn't anything happening spoiler-wise (like right now), who are we?
A community.
We all exist as individuals within that community. We all have our own separate interests. Mafia, custom sets, philosophical and intellectual discussion, advice-giving as one person to another.
What are we a community of?
Magic players. I believe that 95% of the people here, are here because they play(ed) Magic, at some point in their lives. There are quite a few, I'm sure, who have since quit playing, but have stuck around because of the friends they made here.
So, there are a couple of possibilities here. You can try to reinvigorate things like this site's writing, but you're probably never going to be able to keep up with the content that places like SCG and CFB can provide. You've got occasional skilled players that wander through, but they don't have any sense of loyalty to Salvation as a DGE. It may be a place that they visit, but it is not their "home" in digital reality. You can try to make the various format forums better, but Legacy is never going to trump Source. That being said, the EDH, Standard, and Cube forums at least are all pretty good already. I haven't visited the Modern forums much, but I believe that is something I would place a heavy emphasis on. Modern seems to be a format that is going to be mean a lot to Wizards, so placing a heavy emphasis on Modern as a supported format on Salvation would mean a lot. This is one area in particular where I would try to find some good writers. SCG and CFB only pay attention to Eternal formats when it suits them (aka, for a GP or Pro Tour). If you can establish yourselves as a powerful force in the Modern world, that would go a long way.
So, to sum up this section by way of tl;dr:
I see Salvation as a DGE composed of people who care about spoilers; of people who once cared about spoilers but now care about the friends that they have made here; of people who enjoy the diverse paths that are open to those who tend to enjoy Magic (aka, Magic players like mafia, creating custom cards, debate, etc); and of people who play Magic and want to talk about it.
I see Salvation as a flicker, a ghostly shadow of a possible future. In the absence of philosophy can be discovered a canvas, a blank opportunity bursting with creative potentiality. There is a chance, a slim one, perhaps, but a chance nonetheless, to make something great here. Salvation could be a beacon for the Magic community as a whole, embracing new players with open arms and standing proud as a top-drawer place to discuss Modern, to help people improve at the game that we all love(d), and to hang out with people who have similar interests. If the site undergoes a transformation into a more welcoming facade with more laid-back rules based around Lines in the Sand, as opposed to strict "Thou Shalt Nots," I truly believe that Salvation's golden years might yet be ahead of her, as opposed to rotting in the distant, crumbling past.
I do not believe that now is a time for silence. The time for silence, for mourning, has passed. Now is a time for debate, for discussion, for making a better future. The best time for such a thing is when all parties are frustrated, because in frustration lies motivation. When everyone is happy, nobody will want to change anything for fear of damaging that happiness. Now, however, when everything is blood and thunder; now, you can enact change. Now you can improve. Where else is there to go, but up?
All should be involved in this. We are Salvation, and Salvation is who WE make her. Will we make Salvation a place of bitterness and resentment, wallowing in the past like a group of fat pigs waiting for the slaughtermaster, or will we stand tall as men and women capable of intellectual discourse, building a better future together?
~Finis.
Silver.
That was quite possibly the least cynical thing you could have said! It's that reality we are trying to work with... People will complain, so our job is just to figure out how do we do a better job of doing our job. Job.
@SilverSihhe - I feel like I should know who you are, but that was good stuff. There is an identity crisis here and the staff has tried to shape that identity in the past ... and people ran them out of town because it wasn't inline with their idea of what the site is about. Closing the Gutter was about that - and we lost how many members and moderators? You might be right about pushing the spoilers* though. I think what happens is a lot of us start there, find the rest of the site, and then forget that the front door really says "Spoilers." Perspective amongst the staff (entrenched) and CI Heros (entrenched) might have been lost to some degree. This site isn't about the staff lounge or the Gutter... it's about what those other 98% are doing.
Are we on the same wave length here?
* - I don't really know how to do that in a way that makes us "the spoiler site" as opposed to "the spoiler spoiler site" without burning bridges with Wizards of the Coast. We sort of want them to get along with us and stuff
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I believe we are on the same wavelength, yes. Also, I'm not a gimmick if that's what you're thinking -- I'm just some dude =)
As for your asterisks section -- I mean, it's a touchy subject. From my personal perspective, there are ALWAYS going to be spoilers. That will never change. The music industry clamped down on leaks as hard as they could, and it still happened. Etc. I think that there's a lot to be said for having all of the spoilers collected in one place, and for that one place to be granted "accepted" status by Wizards. It's going to happen anyway. I'm just of the opinion that Wizards stands a lot to gain (and nothing to lose) by recognizing that fact and realizing that they actually sell more product as it gets hyped by the spoilers.
That's going to dip into economics and PR and other icky subjects, and there's obviously the challenging subject of getting Wizards to actually understand that concept. But bottom-line, a spoiler site like Salvation will ALWAYS exist. WotC stands a lot to gain by playing nice with Salvation in that regard, rather than trying to run hardball and have 10 more sites just like her crop up.
At the same time, playing footsies with Wizards will likely add in another layer of restrictions and more "prying eyes," and we know how well that went over, now, with Curse. I dunno. I believe that there is a solution, but it's definitely a messy topic.
...and definitely not for this thread.
It doesn't feel like now is quite the time to get into that though.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
It might not be the choice that the staff wants to make, but maybe the best thing to do is just burn that bridge if you want to focus on the spoilers.
Personally, it all seems like a decision the owner - the one with financial and legal stake in the site - needs to deal with. I know that I am not going to support kicking a hornet's nest until it's made clear that that's my job and that I have operator's insurance. Even then I have ethical issues with that and probably wouldn't stick around to see whatever fallout there may be.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
It's a board about magic, yet they just kick it in WTC, here, gutter, speak easy etc.
I've actually seen people who admit they haven't played the game in years, but still suck up the place with their nonsense.
"The mods and admins are crappy because I'm an unadjusted introvert who got an infraction for being creepy/disruptive/annoying/stupid... On a board about a game I don't play"
Then they come here and ***** more.
This is a message board about magic. Lets keep it that way. If you don't play magic anymore move along. I heard 4chan likes stupidity and *****ing, go there.
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I understand this line of thinking and as a "hardcore Casual" MTG player I come here for game - never played Mafia, posted in the Gutter, joined a clan. But, I think that for a long time this place has been a site not for MTG, but for the people of MTGS. So, calling for the termination of half the boards here would mean we lose a huge part of what this place is ACTUALLY about. Instead of getting rid of those I'd like to see better coverage of the game... but how?
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
This. While I agree that it's "too late" to start shutting down the non-Magic forums, since they've been here for eight years and have established communities that enjoy them, I think the site would benefit from putting more emphasis on the MtG part. News, articles, content in general, and making sure the strategy forums are relevant and up to date.
I've already offered to help out on the news bit (at least competitive-related - that's what I know!)