I know the Gutter closure back in June was badly handled, and that was really regrettable. I quite quickly turned around, and another couple with me, and then slowly more and more, until we could start actually talking about a compromise. Why didn't things work out from there? The fault lies with both, but I know that for myself, it was extremely hard to keep going. Myself and others received regular pot shots from both sides - taking the middle ground often felt like you were both sides' enemy, even though I'd fought pretty hard to stop the closure.
Clearly, the Gutterites were angry with the situation, and that was understandable. But keeping the cool was the way forward, and many did this admirably, such as Shazbot, Jobie, Ximbad, manasjap, Gaea's Regent, and many more, but far from all, and least of them N_S. I was actually really upset about what happened around mid to late July in that regard, because it was so easy to look at the minority of Gutter members who trolled and caused problems (and this took away much of the sympathy the Gutter had received from many staff members who had "turned around" during this debacle), while the rest were actually quite easy to work with (Galspanic and myself had some lengthy private chats with many of them, and I was very hopeful that we'd reach a solution that worked). But N_S got banned, which obviously soured things, and for various reasons, things slowed down to snail's pace in pegs.
And then we got to the 2nd leak. At that point, it looked like it was all for naught, and I got so frustrated that I quit. Since then, I don't know what's been going on, but I can say that I'm very upset about what has happened since mid-June re: the Gutter. I did what I could to not get to this point, I failed, and I guess I can't say anything but sorry for that. The social space that is the Gutter obviously meant a lot to a lot of you.
That's all I can say about that. I know what N_S thinks about me, and I can only imagine what he must have told the rest of you guys at this other forum, but believe me when I say that I've really hated all of this, and the fact that you've felt forced to move to another forum.
Lastly, I'd just like to point out that this isn't a plea to the Gutterites. It's a plea to all users here, Gutter members or not.
edit:
Quote from Azrael »
And no one had any scuttlebutt that was worth leaking.
The staff can hardly be blamed for this, and for having been approached by Curse and had important and clearly private discussions about a potential sale of the site. The fact that the staff has had information that it was important to withhold should not be used against it.
I've watched what's gone on with the Gutter. I did not agree with the original closure in June, and I'm unhappy with events that have transpired since then.
To say I'm unhappy is actually an understatement. I was working for hours and hours with the Gutter over the course of the past several months to make things right. Not only trying to work with them to find a way that everyone could co-exist, but stepping into the Gutter to directly answer questions.
I'm not happy that we're losing those Gutter members. I'm not happy that it's come to a point where people are leaving the site to make another.
All I can say is that I'm sorry this happened, that you guys needed to move somewhere else. And that I'm happy you now have a place where you don't have to worry, that you can create the type of place you want to be in.
I know the Gutter closure back in June was badly handled, and that was really regrettable. I quite quickly turned around, and another couple with me, and then slowly more and more, until we could start actually talking about a compromise. Why didn't things work out from there? The fault lies with both, but I know that for myself, it was extremely hard to keep going. Myself and others received regular pot shots from both sides - taking the middle ground often felt like you were both sides' enemy, even though I'd fought pretty hard to stop the closure.
Clearly, the Gutterites were angry with the situation, and that was understandable. But keeping the cool was the way forward, and many did this admirably, such as Shazbot, Jobie, Ximbad, manasjap, Gaea's Regent, and many more, but far from all, and least of them N_S. I was actually really upset about what happened around mid to late July in that regard, because it was so easy to look at the minority of Gutter members who trolled and caused problems (and this took away much of the sympathy the Gutter had received from many staff members who had "turned around" during this debacle), while the rest were actually quite easy to work with (Galspanic and myself had some lengthy private chats with many of them, and I was very hopeful that we'd reach a solution that worked). But N_S got banned, which obviously soured things, and for various reasons, things slowed down to snail's pace in pegs.
And then we got to the 2nd leak. At that point, it looked like it was all for naught, and I got so frustrated that I quit. Since then, I don't know what's been going on, but I can say that I'm very upset about what has happened since mid-June re: the Gutter. I did what I could to not get to this point, I failed, and I guess I can't say anything but sorry for that. The social space that is the Gutter obviously meant a lot to a lot of you.
That's all I can say about that. I know what N_S thinks about me, and I can only imagine what he must have told the rest of you guys at this other forum, but believe me when I say that I've really hated all of this, and the fact that you've felt forced to move to another forum.
Lastly, I'd just like to point out that this isn't a plea to the Gutterites. It's a plea to all users here, Gutter members or not.
edit:
The staff can hardly be blamed for this, and for having been approached by Curse and had important and clearly private discussions about a potential sale of the site. The fact that the staff has had information that it was important to withhold should not be used against it.
Thank you both for saying this. I know both of you have been trying very hard, and I know many of us appreciate all that you've done, and continue to do. Sene, I particularly loved the regular community feedback thread idea. I thought NS blaming you for the gutter situation was absolutely ridiculous and undeserved. And I know Nai has continued to push for putting serving the userbase first, as the role of the staff, just as he did when he and I were just ordinary moderators making trouble amongst the ranks.
But at the end of the day, the healing is going to have to come from the staff. Neither the users or the gutter have the power to fix it - they don't have any policy-making power. That's going to have to come from the staff - particularly the portions of the staff that the users or other gutterites are skeptical of - taking actions to change their minds and restore faith.
It means something unexpected. A change of approach. If you want forgiveness from the userbase - forgive them, first, and act accordingly. You kill drama with kindness.
Right now, it looks more like a Cold War out there. Espionage, spy-hunting, talking about clandestine activities, gossiping behind one another's backs - that's what I mean when I say there wasn't any scuttlebutt to leak, back then. This is not how you move forward from this and stop the CI drama.
When I was a mod, if I said "tough titties this is how it is", my decision would stay (worse case scenario me and senori would butt heads about me centering everything) , the user-base couldn't moan and whine like spoiled children to get me to backdown, or someone to overrule me (it was tried a few times, and failed, well it was aimed at bel once and should of been aimed at me).
Let's not forget that this is hardly the first time that CI has been an ongoing train-wreck. That's been the rule throughout most of the site's history, and the way that plenty of admins have gotten there wasn't by backing down when they made a mistake, but by being obstinate and stamping on discontent.
One would think that when staff makes a mistake, at least the learning process will make them better equipped to make fewer mistakes in the future. I don't think that is the case on MtG Salvation. Why? Because when staff makes a mistake, they are hounded in Community Issued. They are attacked over and over, called corrupt, called liars, whatever you want. References to Subterranean Spirit and/or the exodus from MtG News are quick to surface. Now, usually when there is an outrage in CI, it is usually rooted in a legit problem. This is because staff makes mistakes, always have and always will. It's a hard job, folks. But when they make these mistakes, try to find it in you to forgive them, or at the very least, not become outright mean. When staff is attacked relentlessly over a mistake, what's going to happen is burnout. Burnout leads to staff apathy and resignations (as we've seen plenty of during the past few months, more than any other time in the site's history, by a considerable amount), and consequently, more mistakes.
I can only speak for myself. But I would definitely be a lot less frustrated with staff mistakes if they would just admit their mistakes in a straight, non-political manner and promise to work towards changing their behavior to make sure those kind of mistakes don't happen again.
But for far too many times, I've seen this kind of situation when it comes to CI or Help Desk complaints.
As a matter of fact, the following example might as well be stamped as "Community Issues: What To Expect If You Have A Complaint".
Member A: This infraction/decision is wrong for Reasons A, B and C. You should recant it.
Staff Member A: I don't believe it was a wrong decision.
Staff Members B, C & D: We support Staff Member A! Herp derp!
Members B, C & D: You are all wrong about this situation for reasons A, B, C, D, E, F & G. And Staff Member A should just apologize for screwing up already.
Staff members A, B, C & D: You guys are being mean! Herp!
Members A, B, C & D: Angry face angry face angry face.
Staff Member A: I will say that mistakes were made and if people were offended by certain decisions than I definitely feel for them, but the decision will not be recanted nor will I directly apologize until this thread grows into a 20 page monster and I've ruined all credibility I once had a hope of having.
I can only speak for myself. But I would definitely be a lot less frustrated with staff mistakes if they would just admit their mistakes in a straight, non-political manner and promise to work towards changing their behavior to make sure those kind of mistakes don't happen again.
But for far too many times, I've seen this kind of situation when it comes to CI or Help Desk complaints.
As a matter of fact, the following example might as well be stamped as "Community Issues: What To Expect If You Have A Complaint".
Member A: This infraction/decision is wrong for Reasons A, B and C. You should recant it.
Staff Member A: I don't believe it was a wrong decision.
Staff Members B, C & D: We support Staff Member A! Herp derp!
Members B, C & D: You are all wrong about this situation for reasons A, B, C, D, E, F & G. And Staff Member A should just apologize for screwing up already.
Staff members A, B, C & D: You guys are being mean! Herp!
Members A, B, C & D: Angry face angry face angry face.
Staff Member A: I will say that mistakes were made and if people were offended by certain decisions than I definitely feel for them, but the decision will not be recanted nor will I directly apologize until this thread grows into a 20 page monster and I've ruined all credibility I once had a hope of having.
Staff Members B, C & D: We concur Durr!
I guess I am an anomaly then. A moderator gave me an incorrect warning and I gave my reasons to the person in charge of the area why it was incorrect. The warning was reversed and the moderator that gave me a warning apologized to me directly.
Elaborate please? You say here that, essentially, there used to be a suppressive quality to staff interaction with their userbase, and it makes sense to me that this suppression would have stopped the spiraling interactions I touch on above.
More or less. Administrations in the past were a lot less compromising and a lot less willing to put up with this sort of behavior. It wasn't suppression per se, I think that gives the impression that past administrations were completely unwilling to have a dialogue with users. We certainly did discuss things with the userbase, we just ignored users that couldn't conduct themselves at all productively. Such users could keep raving, we just didn't give them nearly as much consideration as users that voiced themselves rationally and productively. When users spoke reasonably, we listened. When they ranted, raved and got vitriolic, we were less inclined to listen.
I won't mince my words here, I think some users have gotten a little too used to the much more giving and compromising attitudes of the current administration. I don't think swinging the wheel hard the other way is in the staff's best interests, I don't think a draconic crackdown is reasonable at all. But I think a lot of this would be easier if the staff just stopped expending energy on users that can't seem to voice their concerns in a reasonable, mature manner. Thankfully, some users can, and those are the ones the staff should be focusing open dialogues on.
So, I think that the community values transparent and compromising leadership for a variety of reasons. However, transparency actually just opens the door to more criticism, and the possibility of compromise means that people will constantly push for things they disagree with to be changed.
My thing is that people are going to be angry no matter what you do; maybe a less open attitude would be better in the long run for the site. Don't get me wrong, that kind of this is very unpleasant as well, but the current system doesn't seem to be functioning. More drama has resulted, more people are angry at the staff, and more staff keep leaving. Sometimes it's just better if change happens when it must and things are the way they are rather than constant debate spiraling into constant animosity.
Ta. I'm the first to admit that not everything was flawless while I was an admin. I don't think things have ever been flawless here. I still think the current administration has made it their imperative to do right by the userbase, which makes it all the more bewildering that they've attracted more bitterness than the staff ever has.
Next paragraph I think is probably best addressed from the gutter's perspective, since they're the group that remains the most infuriated.
How many big-name members have been banned or walked away? And the gutter is reduced to ashes. And half a dozen other minor catastrophes.
And all of this came right on the heels of what the gutter felt was a golden age - those are literally the words that have been used to describe it by some of them. They had half a dozen members on staff. They thought they were finally safe from closure. The rules were being toned down. Moderators they considered problematic were being dealt with, decisively. Accountability and transparency were on the rise. The community was being consulted regularly. And no one had any scuttlebutt that was worth leaking.
And what happened next? Just when they thought they were finally safe, everything they thought they'd gained was ripped away in a blistering series of blows, one piling upon the other.
I think that believing they were finally safe was probably exceptionally naive on their part. They were far, far more safe when 'seds and I were admins. The issues with them didn't really change over the years, but the number of pro-gutter staff members shrank over the years. They'd always been on thin ice and literally had countless "last warnings", I'm not sure why they'd ever feel safe even if they had settled into a calmer groove.
In eight months, the gutter lost everything they had on this site. And the staff haven't seemed to understand or empathize or care what they've been put through. In fact, half the staff is ridiculously angry at the gutter, in turn, and the other half is complaining/wondering why nobody likes them.
Of course they're ridiculously infuriated.
The Gutter may have the impression that the staff doesn't care or is angry at the gutterites, but they're honestly really wrong. The staff wasn't happy by anything that went down. I've seen the discussions, the staff looked for any and every way to do right by the Gutter. But then a few upset gutterites conducted themselves poorly. They were certainly emotional, justifiably so, but they still behaved poorly and some suffered consequences for it.
I sympathize with the gutterites, I truly do, I'm just not inclined to extend that sympathy to the way a few of them have treated the staff. Justifiably upset or not, I don't think that sort of behavior is necessary or productive. I think recent events have illustrated perfectly why users conducting themselves that way is counterproductive.
I don't mean to say the gutter are saints, either. But can we get some perspective on how wretched these past months have been for the gutterites?
I'm sure it has been, and this is going to sound rather dismissive but I'm less concerned about them when staff burnout is this bad. There's only a finite number of posters that can competently run the site, I'm much more concerned about not running through them all. Ideally, I'd prefer both groups to be content, but if I had to prioritize one, it'd be the staff right now. Luckily, we're capable of addressing multiple issues at once so it's possible both groups' concerns can be addressed simultaneously.
I remember being a mod, and the witch hunting then was a pain in the backside but you could muddle through it, recite the facts enough till it sunk in, now that "*****ing" power has been given to the user-base, witch hunting has been taken to a absurd extreme, the mod turnover count is nuts, and the only thing that is consistent that I am seeing cause this. Is users running round screaming "corruption", "its not fair", "why cant we make a vote about this" "Give me exact reasoning so me and my friends can pick it apart because your not a lawyer and don't know how to word it without recourse"
When I was a mod, if I said "tough titties this is how it is", my decision would stay (worse case scenario me and senori would butt heads about me centering everything) , the user-base couldn't moan and whine like spoiled children to get me to backdown, or someone to overrule me (it was tried a few times, and failed, well it was aimed at bel once and should of been aimed at me).
The current modbase just don't have that backing anymore, and frankly they should, the users are acting like petulant little brats with an inkling of power on a tiny spec of the internet, destroying something I helped (and many others) create many years ago, and its disheartening to come back here every couple of weeks to see it getting worse and worse.
tldr
userbase acting like kids, mods not getting enough support and scared to have a backbone on issues because of it
Preaching to the choir. I actually said almost exactly this in the Mod Lounge this week.
Let's not forget that this is hardly the first time that CI has been an ongoing train-wreck. That's been the rule throughout most of the site's history, and the way that plenty of admins have gotten there wasn't by backing down when they made a mistake, but by being obstinate and stamping on discontent.
I think that's unfair to a degree. Not that stubbornness and/or outright dismissal of discontented users didn't happen, but it certainly wasn't across the board. Nor were valid concerns presented maturely and rationally ignored. Past admins weren't jerkass dictators.
But I think there is a middle ground here and that the current administration may want to examine what worked in the past and why.
the users are acting like petulant little brats with an inkling of power on a tiny spec of the internet, destroying something I helped (and many others) create many years ago
Petulant little brats...
You sound like a brat yourself right now mister. A sanctimonious brat, and not the only one. You are not helping the problem.
I'm sorry, but we have a bunch of ex-mods patting themselves on the back, while eyeing a rightfully upset userbase with open contempt.
Look, I would love to join in the group hug fest. There is nothing I would like more than a
but a big community here was just eviscerated, and I don't know what to do.
You guys want healing? Well how about giving that massive wound a bit of tender loving care? I'll group hug you guys right in the feels if we can make some real progress.
What issue is there with having a big community fest?
He is not referring to you directly. He is referring to the moderators who are here saying they were not the problem. I am not passing judgment since I do not know what happened, just restating what the guy said. Sometimes we look back at history and remember the good, forget the bad, and gloss over the details.
I feel like I just show up to a book review and have not read the book, but have enough of idea as to what happened. In my opinion, a lot of sides are pissed about things that happened in the past, refuse to let go, and are letting those influence their actions thus perpetuating the cycle. Other then rooting out these people [removing them from the forums] or getting everyone to forgive and forget, nothing will change.
The moderators are not perfect here and the rules are stricter than I am used to, but this place is still a great place.
I can only speak for myself. But I would definitely be a lot less frustrated with staff mistakes if they would just admit their mistakes in a straight, non-political manner and promise to work towards changing their behavior to make sure those kind of mistakes don't happen again.
But for far too many times, I've seen this kind of situation when it comes to CI or Help Desk complaints.
As a matter of fact, the following example might as well be stamped as "Community Issues: What To Expect If You Have A Complaint".
Member A: This infraction/decision is wrong for Reasons A, B and C. You should recant it.
Staff Member A: I don't believe it was a wrong decision.
Staff Members B, C & D: We support Staff Member A! Herp derp!
Members B, C & D: You are all wrong about this situation for reasons A, B, C, D, E, F & G. And Staff Member A should just apologize for screwing up already.
Staff members A, B, C & D: You guys are being mean! Herp!
Members A, B, C & D: Angry face angry face angry face.
Staff Member A: I will say that mistakes were made and if people were offended by certain decisions than I definitely feel for them, but the decision will not be recanted nor will I directly apologize until this thread grows into a 20 page monster and I've ruined all credibility I once had a hope of having.
Staff Members B, C & D: We concur Durr!
As contentious as it may seem, the above sums up the course of soooo many CI threads. The language used isn't the best and probably annoys some folks, but it really does a good job summarizing what happens in these threads.
When I was a mod, if I said "tough titties this is how it is", my decision would stay (worse case scenario me and senori would butt heads about me centering everything) , the user-base couldn't moan and whine like spoiled children to get me to backdown, or someone to overrule me (it was tried a few times, and failed, well it was aimed at bel once and should of been aimed at me).
Strong moderation is fine. Inconsistent or unprincipled moderation is not.
The current modbase just don't have that backing anymore, and frankly they should, the users are acting like petulant little brats with an inkling of power on a tiny spec of the internet, destroying something I helped (and many others) create many years ago, and its disheartening to come back here every couple of weeks to see it getting worse and worse.
Most of the users are unaware that anything is going on. Even those who do are generally spectators and infrequent contributors to the growing number of witch hunt threads. It is disheartening to see so many mods being railroaded for no reason. I don't know why certain people are banding together to give the staff a hard time but it brings to mind the Gutter of old and their tactics for getting their way.
All I see at the moment is 2 trenches with non-leaking staff on 1 side, leaking staff and vocal dissenters of community on other ..... and a few sensible people who just want whats best for the site in the middle waving white flags and hoping 1 side or other will see sense and try to negotiate.
You know, the leaker(s) probably felt they were doing a good thing. Just like the staff who kept the negotiations with Curse felt they were doing a good thing. When someone feels they're right voices of reason are often ignored.
I'm sorry to see you go, Sene. Having kept an eye on CI and community events since the website's inception, unfortunately I can't say I'm surprised it came to having to step down. The best way to make instigators like the mod lounge leakers less effective is to not react to them. While I agree they are doing nothing but harm to MTGS, the true blame for damage to the website's image falls on the shoulders of the ridiculously over-zealous, self-righteous sub group that takes every political or staff issue on the website and proceeds to turn it into a fight against "the man". In an ironic twist, this handful of people who are there at every turn to try and twist any given website issue into some conspiracy, have only ultimately put much, much more stress on the forums than there would be if they would just shut their mouths and leave things alone.
I'm not going to name names, because they know who they are. Frankly, it's about time that the staff stopped giving into them and said enough is enough. I see what many of them claim to be as being in the best interest of the website, as wrestling for control and power without having the label. If you think about it, those individuals have had more control over the direction and end result of political squabbles on this website than the actual staff has had in quite some time. If MTGS were denied the Curse deal -a completion of which is really only beneficial to the community as a whole- it's not because of anything the staff has done but because of several individuals who will not keep their collective noses out from where they don't belong.
Here's some food for thought:
Once again, the majority of this drama comes from The Gutter, it's supporters and side-line commentators, and those that vicariously take part in the forum drama through providing commentary (whom have no stake in it staying or going and just feel the need to assert their voice). The drama ultimately stems from a sub-community on the website that does not consist of even close to 10% of our every day user base. If Curse does a 180 after seeing all this unfold over drama regarding that subgroup and a lack of control over their shenanigans and far too willingness to try to be transparent with them over issues regarding their subgroup, then that is damaging the other 90%+ of the user base. I'm not here putting The Gutter or it's users down because of some blind hatred for The Gutter; No, I'm here to say that this much energy and time being put into a very, very tiny portion of the community that neither really belongs here nor is mandatory is not right. Staff turn over and burn out due to something of a sub culture that is so miniscule is, to be blunt, asinine.
It's time for those users to let go or relocate elsewhere if things are supposedly that terrible here for them, because their issues do not effect the users who are here to use MTGS as a resource for what it was intended to be. They may have been in the right in some previous instances, but in this instance their interference from them and their supporters leaking in the staff are being nothing but selfish. This is a Magic: the Gathering community, not 4chan. If you ruin a deal that benefits the greater majority of the user base and Magic: the Gathering players here over your selfishness regarding your sub community and issues with authority, then that says a lot more about your characters than anything you try to push off onto our staff members. It's just plain time to shut the **** up. (No I'm not flaming, I'm using a very stern tone).
I'll just flat out tell you as the founder of this website: This website was not made for you to idle in an invisible sub forum and to provide you a soap box. This website was created as a haven for Magic: the Gathering players who want to discuss the card game and to save a community that actually had problems that lead to the entire staff leaving it's former home (the ridiculous comparisons of which to our small time political bullcrap need to stop, by the way) The fact that all this drama has stemmed from a subgroup that doesn't even remotely have to do with Magic: the Gathering discussion is a load of bollocks, and insulting to everyone who registers here for the purpose of being part of the community proper. Posting here was, is and will continue to be a privilege, not a right. Having a Debate, Water Cooler Talk or hidden sub forum is also a privilege. It's time that those users started to recognize that fact, and it's time for the staff to begin to enforce that fact. To further provide some perspective, those were an addendum to the forum structure that was brought over from MTGNews. MTGNews functioned without those and was very, very active in it's prime and frankly we would've been fine too. Stop and think about that for a moment.
When was the last time we actually had an issue regarding the state of a Magic: the Gathering discussion forum on this forum that was even treated like as a big of a deal as this entire, ridiculous Gutter saga? Other than a disgruntled user that got mad because they broke a rule they should've followed and got a warning? The competitive forum structure and moderatorship has been great for a long time, the mod situation in those areas is stable and the Rumor Mill is under control and we don't get a thread every other day from some disgruntled user who wanted to treat a Spam Warning like they got banned. Things where they actually should matter on this forum are in pretty good shape. That is what is actually important, and too many people have lost sight of that.
Frankly, I wish I were in that admin position again now that I'm nearly 7 years older and 7 years wiser. Energy and resources should be directed to how we can improve Magic: the Gathering discussion, not how we can help a small subgroup of users to make them feel empowered. Not by validating those users through granting too much recognition and time to issues that have no place in the big picture, only to have them abuse their priveledges as users on this website. Not to users who repeatedly abuse our staff who volunteer their time to help on a website about a card game they love, so they can turn around and get chased off with torches and pitchforks over issues that don't even belong here.
I'm sorry to see you go, Sene. Having kept an eye on CI and community events since the website's inception, unfortunately I can't say I'm surprised it came to having to step down. The best way to make instigators like the mod lounge leakers less effective is to not react to them.
Yeah, this is a bad idea, and I think everyone agrees with that (staff, gutter, everyone but you and resonance)
While I agree they are doing nothing but harm to MTGS, the true blame for damage to the website's image falls on the shoulders of the ridiculously over-zealous, self-righteous sub group that takes every political or staff issue on the website and proceeds to turn it into a fight against "the man". In an ironic twist, this handful of people who are there at every turn to try and twist any given website issue into some conspiracy, have only ultimately put much, much more stress on the forums than there would be if they would just shut their mouths and leave things alone.
So, the onus is on the people who are (arguably at best) trying to hurt the site, and not on those that are knowingly providing them with ammo to do it?
I'm not going to name names, because they know who they are. Frankly, it's about time that the staff stopped giving into them and said enough is enough.
You mean like...the 15+ longstanding members who were banned? The only people who I might even think you are talking about are like...belgarath, az, and shaz, two of which are former admins.
I see what many of them claim to be as being in the best interest of the website, as wrestling for control and power without having the label. If you think about it, those individuals have had more control over the direction and end result of political squabbles on this website than the actual staff has had in quite some time. If MTGS were denied the Curse deal, which is really only to the benefit of the community as a whole, it's not because of anything the staff has done but because of several individuals who will not keep their collective noses out from where they belong.
And the leakers, I'd expect that nothing bad would have happened with this until the deal was finished if it hadn't been for the leakers, since...you know, they gave people the fuel for this whole debacle.
Here's some food for thought:
Once again, the majority of this drama comes from The Gutter, it's supporters and side-line commentators, and those that vicariously take part in the forum drama through providing commentary (whom have no stake in it staying or going and just feel the need to assert their voice).
So, the majority of the drama comes from people posting in CI that aren't staff? I mean, what group isn't covered by this blanket? Yes, people who post in CI cause drama, because...well, CI is the place where we discuss drama (pegging chamber aside).
Are you really saying I don't have a right to post regarding the gutter because I'm not a member of the gutter, and that if I were a gutter member, by posting regarding the gutter I'd be trying to stir drama?
Not to mention that fact that you are doing just that. I'll admit I'm doing it too, but I won't say it isn't your right to as well. I'm attempting to get something accomplished, and as misguided as you feel that might be, it doesn't mean you should jump to the conclusion that what I (or anyone else here that is involved with this) is doing is detrimental to the site. Leave that blame to the leakers.
The drama ultimately stems from a sub-community on the website that does not consist of even close to 10% of our every day user base. If Curse does a 180 after seeing all this unfold over drama regarding that subgroup and a lack of control over their shenanigans and far too willingness to try to be transparent with them over issues regarding their subgroup, then that is damaging the other 90%+ of the user base.
Yes
It's time for those users to let go or relocate elsewhere if things are supposedly that terrible here for them, because their issues do not effect the users who are here to use MTGS as a resource for what it was intended to be. They may have been in the right in some previous instances, but in this instance their interference from them and their supporters leaking in the staff are being nothing but selfish. This is a Magic: the Gathering community, not 4chan. If you ruin a deal that benefits the greater majority of the user base and Magic: the Gathering players here over your selfishness regarding your sub community and issues with authority, then that says a lot more about your characters than anything you try to push off onto our staff members. It's just plain time to shut the **** up.
So, when someone is wrong, they should leave? (god I wish this was how the internet worked )
This also isn't strictly an MTG community, not anymore. (as evidenced by a thread started a few down, about removing all forums not related to MTG). It is a group of forums tangentially related by some (current or prior) interest in MTG.
Also, They have left
I'll just flat out tell you as the founder of this website:
Is this supposed to give you the right to lecture me on what the forum is?
This website was not made for you to idle in an invisible sub forum and to provide you a soap box. This website was created as a haven for Magic: the Gathering players who want to discuss the card game and to save a community that actually had problems that lead to the entire staff leaving it's former home (the ridiculous comparisons of which to our small time political bullcrap need to stop, by the way)
The fact that all this drama has stemmed from a subgroup that doesn't even remotely have to do with Magic: the Gathering discussion is a load of bollocks, and insulting to everyone who registers here for the purpose of being part of that community. Posting here was, is and will continue to be a privilege, not a right. Having a Debate, Water Cooler Talk or hidden sub forum is also a privilege. It's time that those users started to recognize that fact, and it's time for the staff to begin to enforce that fact.
Yes, and obviously, if you were an admin, that right would have been revoked for many of the people posting here long ago. Luckily, the current admins have the foresight to realize that having reasonable discourse with those whom they disagree with is a really could way to make positive things happen, as long as that discourse remains civil (which for the most part, it has, and those who haven't been are gone with little exception).
When was the last time we actually had an issue regarding the state of a Magic: the Gathering discussion forum on this forum that was even treated like as a big of a deal as this entire, ridiculous Gutter saga? The competitive forum structure and moderatorship has been great for a long time, the mod situation in those areas is stable and the Rumor Mill is under control and we don't get a thread every other day from some disgruntled user who wanted to treat a Spam Warning like they got banned. Things where they actually should matter on this forum are in pretty good shape. That is what is actually important, and too many people have lost sight of that.
To you, certainly, obviously not to some others.
Frankly, I wish I were in that admin position again now that I'm nearly 7 years older and 7 years wiser.
And thank goodness you aren't.
Thank you for founding this site. Its wonderful. I love discussing standard and edh strategy, and discussing spoilers and rumors. The spoiler system that this site has is the best.
It isn't your thing. The forum you founded belongs no more to you than it does to any other person here, and if all you are going to do is tell people who are engaging in reasonable and respectful discussion that they are being detrimental to the site, you are the one that should sit back, think, and try to be more constructive than whatever this was, because trying to throw the blame that lies with staff at other people won't do anything but inflame tension.
EDIT: If I didn't make this clear, blame lies with other people too. I probably have some of this on my shoulders, but the staff has some of it, and they know it. It isn't your place (or mine, or anyone but the current staff's) to say whether or not anyone has the right to post here, and the holier-than-thou attitude does nothing to calm anyone
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
The difference between me and the people who fall into the administrator position, is I don't fall for the guise of claiming "civil discourse", and I know all it does is empower those users who cause problems for this website and it's staff. That discourse is great, when it's intention isn't to be used as a gateway to land a foothold of power in the website by squirming your way into it's inner workings. The staff have fallen for the greatest troll in this community's history, and that would be that guise and how much more time and resources they've had to dump into a part of this website that does not belong here. Regardless, you missed most if not all the points regarding to my position, while in the process of needing to assert your voice against someone that is not bowing down and kissing the collective buttocks of those users. You're actually a prime example of exactly what I'm talking about.
Just a little reminder: This is Magic: the Gathering Salvation, not Social Chatter For Elitist Groups and Random Unrelated Drama Sandbox. There is SomethingAwful, 4Chan and many a discussion board where all that should've gone ages ago.
Magic: the Gathering.
This website is about that, not you, them or the ability to argue for the sake of arguing without really having anything to say. Once again, what this website is here and exists for has become lost.
Just a little reminder: This is Magic: the Gathering Salvation, not Social Chatter For Elitist Groups and Random Unrelated Drama Sandbox. There is SomethingAwful, 4Chan and many a discussion board where all that can go.
Interesting that you mention SA, given their moderation policies, the fact that they charge money to create accounts, and the fact that attempting MTGS CI-style drama on there would get you flat-up banned. If we tried to be like SA in even the first and third points, there'd probably be backlash unlike anything the site has ever seen.
Considering how well received it was and how much input the staff gave, I would except that wouldn't happen. Megs did post 3 whole sentences while dismissing it.
The difference between me and the people who fall into the administrator position, is I don't fall for the guise of claiming "civil discourse",
So, any attempt to change something by talking to the staff is some evil agenda? That's certainly what it sounds like.
and I know all it does is empower those users who cause problems for this website and it's staff.
Azreal: such a good troll he became admin.
You're actually a prime example of exactly what I'm talking about.
I think I said that. I'm one of those awkward sideline cases you mentioned. Not that the staff has kissed the collective asses of the users, that would be unbanning the former gutter members, something they've said they won't do, and so far have not. I'm fine with that. I want things to be better going forward, and the attitude that the staff should go full dictator and ignore any attempt to communicate with the more vocal portions of the userbase.
Not to mention how horrifically this would perpetuate the us vs. them attitude that everyone (but you) agrees is one of the biggest dramabombg inflating issues.
Just a little reminder: This is Magic: the Gathering Salvation, not Social Chatter For Elitist Groups and Random Unrelated Drama Sandbox. There is SomethingAwful, 4Chan and many a discussion board where all that can go.
Magic: the Gathering. This website is about that, not you.
a community with many pillars, and while MTG is the biggest and most consistent, this site was founded on and grown with bustling "outside magic" subforum communities.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Interesting that you mention SA, given their moderation policies, the fact that they charge money to create accounts, and the fact that attempting MTGS CI-style drama on there would get you flat-up banned. If we tried to be like SA in even the first and third points, there'd probably be backlash unlike anything the site has ever seen.
It's something to think about, at any rate.
Honestly, I just threw it out there as it was discussion board that came to mind that was designed with the intention of a broader range of subject. That is to say, SA isn't founded on the idea of discussion regarding facets of a particular subject like we are here. But you're completely right and I'd never suggest to try that.
Personally, I wouldn't want it to come to that. While I tried to drive home the point that the existence of those forums is a privilege, many of the non-Magic forums I use myself. I actively peruse (but generally do not post in) WCT, Blogs, the Creative section and Entertainment. It is also a matter of toxicity, though. When you're having to constantly dump resources into cleaning up after a user base for those forums that makes those toxic, then facing backlash from trying to make adjustments making another toxic situation, eventually you have to weigh the situation and the worth of those things.
(Separating this from my response to Shazbot since it's not directly a reponse to that post)
Also, putting this out there: I'm not saying the staff are innocent in any drama that's happened, but when you have people over worked and over stressed who are made to feel like they're walking on eggshells due to a subgroup of people who will always criticize any decision made... well, you reap what you sow. Don't keep people walking on high wire and then act surprised when they eventually fall off. This entire saga is an example of cause and effect, from both ends. An unnecessary, drawn out, useless saga that does not belong.
And yes, this is a community with several pillars and that's all fine and dandy. However, Magic: the Gathering being put on an equal level with anything else and not being the forefront of concern and resources was and is a mistake. I'm hoping a buy out from Curse will help remedy that. We should be working on getting official previews and how we can improve the longevity of the greatest part of this community, among several other things. Not watching faceless people making other human beings get so stressed that they no longer want to help the cause. Sene, or any one else stepping down to due to stress not even related to Magic, is quite frankly a tragedy for this website's community as a whole.
I may come off as very hard-line and stern, but that doesn't mean I'm not someone who can't be agreeable. There are just many things that should be more important than all this that I'm tired of seeing so much focus put into. If there is any doubt that this website's main purpose is to be a resource for Magic: the Gathering, then that just goes further to prove my point that focus has been lost and needs to be refound. There are many a thing the staff could be doing other than this, that would benefit what the real majority of our user base are here for, instead of spending so much time stuck in tribunals, being grilled, etc.
You know why it's always the same faces in CI threads? Because that 90%+ of the user base I keep mentioning, are out there using our forums, oblivious to all this. If someone gets banned, most of them will shrug and not even know who that user was. If Curse takes over, they'll appreciate new resources and probably a new front page and won't think anything of it otherwise. Some times, someone will get curious and wander in here and post their two cents and let their voice be heard, but the majority of the time? Those users don't care, because that's how little all of this effects them in the bigger picture. That, in and of itself, is partly why I want to see resources being put into a place where a difference can be noticed or make forum quality of life better for those users, however that may be. Those users' traffic keep this website afloat, not the 12-15 that come to CI to grill the staff over a grievance in a place all those users don't even know about.
Considering how well received it was and how much input the staff gave, I would except that wouldn't happen. Megs did post 3 whole sentences while dismissing it.
That is true. It is essentially the same concept as well.
Xen-
The gutter changed a lot over the years. Drama and trouble making were unquestionably a non-issue for a long time. The moment drama happened? When it was announced that the gutter was being closed. It was pretty much clean sailing before that though.
I'll just flat out tell you as the founder of this website:This website was not made for you to idle in an invisible sub forum and to provide you a soap box. This website was created as a haven for Magic: the Gathering players who want to discuss the card game and to save a community that actually had problems that lead to the entire staff leaving it's former home (the ridiculous comparisons of which to our small time political bullcrap need to stop, by the way) The fact that all this drama has stemmed from a subgroup that doesn't even remotely have to do with Magic: the Gathering discussion is a load of bollocks, and insulting to everyone who registers here for the purpose of being part of the community proper. Posting here was, is and will continue to be a privilege, not a right. Having a Debate, Water Cooler Talk or hidden sub forum is also a privilege. It's time that those users started to recognize that fact, and it's time for the staff to begin to enforce that fact. To further provide some perspective, those were an addendum to the forum structure that was brought over from MTGNews. MTGNews functioned without those and was very, very active in it's prime and frankly we would've been fine too. Stop and think about that for a moment.
Couldn't agree more! If there wasn't a mod lounge, there wouldn't be leaks of mod lounge material.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
He was reffering to that gutter, not the mod lounge.
Not at all apparent from the paragraph, and any way is equally applicable to both.
Without the Mod lounge, where would private mod issues be discussed onsite without prying eyes. Don't anwser with Private Messages, as these are not feesable.
Those messages aren't private?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
Considering the context of the rest of the post, it was pretty obvious I was referring to the gutter and so that was just used as an opportunity to take an unnecessary pot shot at the staff. And frankly, the concept of the mod lounge is necessary and has been around since MTGNews. Guess how much drama there was back then over information that users need not be privy to? Zero, because they didn't empower instigators through acknowledging and validating them.
I know the Gutter closure back in June was badly handled, and that was really regrettable. I quite quickly turned around, and another couple with me, and then slowly more and more, until we could start actually talking about a compromise. Why didn't things work out from there? The fault lies with both, but I know that for myself, it was extremely hard to keep going. Myself and others received regular pot shots from both sides - taking the middle ground often felt like you were both sides' enemy, even though I'd fought pretty hard to stop the closure.
Clearly, the Gutterites were angry with the situation, and that was understandable. But keeping the cool was the way forward, and many did this admirably, such as Shazbot, Jobie, Ximbad, manasjap, Gaea's Regent, and many more, but far from all, and least of them N_S. I was actually really upset about what happened around mid to late July in that regard, because it was so easy to look at the minority of Gutter members who trolled and caused problems (and this took away much of the sympathy the Gutter had received from many staff members who had "turned around" during this debacle), while the rest were actually quite easy to work with (Galspanic and myself had some lengthy private chats with many of them, and I was very hopeful that we'd reach a solution that worked). But N_S got banned, which obviously soured things, and for various reasons, things slowed down to snail's pace in pegs.
And then we got to the 2nd leak. At that point, it looked like it was all for naught, and I got so frustrated that I quit. Since then, I don't know what's been going on, but I can say that I'm very upset about what has happened since mid-June re: the Gutter. I did what I could to not get to this point, I failed, and I guess I can't say anything but sorry for that. The social space that is the Gutter obviously meant a lot to a lot of you.
That's all I can say about that. I know what N_S thinks about me, and I can only imagine what he must have told the rest of you guys at this other forum, but believe me when I say that I've really hated all of this, and the fact that you've felt forced to move to another forum.
Lastly, I'd just like to point out that this isn't a plea to the Gutterites. It's a plea to all users here, Gutter members or not.
edit:
The staff can hardly be blamed for this, and for having been approached by Curse and had important and clearly private discussions about a potential sale of the site. The fact that the staff has had information that it was important to withhold should not be used against it.
Thank you both for saying this. I know both of you have been trying very hard, and I know many of us appreciate all that you've done, and continue to do. Sene, I particularly loved the regular community feedback thread idea. I thought NS blaming you for the gutter situation was absolutely ridiculous and undeserved. And I know Nai has continued to push for putting serving the userbase first, as the role of the staff, just as he did when he and I were just ordinary moderators making trouble amongst the ranks.
But at the end of the day, the healing is going to have to come from the staff. Neither the users or the gutter have the power to fix it - they don't have any policy-making power. That's going to have to come from the staff - particularly the portions of the staff that the users or other gutterites are skeptical of - taking actions to change their minds and restore faith.
It means something unexpected. A change of approach. If you want forgiveness from the userbase - forgive them, first, and act accordingly. You kill drama with kindness.
Right now, it looks more like a Cold War out there. Espionage, spy-hunting, talking about clandestine activities, gossiping behind one another's backs - that's what I mean when I say there wasn't any scuttlebutt to leak, back then. This is not how you move forward from this and stop the CI drama.
For what? There's a difference between forgiveness and enabling, brother.
Let's not forget that this is hardly the first time that CI has been an ongoing train-wreck. That's been the rule throughout most of the site's history, and the way that plenty of admins have gotten there wasn't by backing down when they made a mistake, but by being obstinate and stamping on discontent.
I can only speak for myself. But I would definitely be a lot less frustrated with staff mistakes if they would just admit their mistakes in a straight, non-political manner and promise to work towards changing their behavior to make sure those kind of mistakes don't happen again.
But for far too many times, I've seen this kind of situation when it comes to CI or Help Desk complaints.
As a matter of fact, the following example might as well be stamped as "Community Issues: What To Expect If You Have A Complaint".
Member A: This infraction/decision is wrong for Reasons A, B and C. You should recant it.
Staff Member A: I don't believe it was a wrong decision.
Staff Members B, C & D: We support Staff Member A! Herp derp!
Members B, C & D: You are all wrong about this situation for reasons A, B, C, D, E, F & G. And Staff Member A should just apologize for screwing up already.
Staff members A, B, C & D: You guys are being mean! Herp!
Members A, B, C & D: Angry face angry face angry face.
Staff Member A: I will say that mistakes were made and if people were offended by certain decisions than I definitely feel for them, but the decision will not be recanted nor will I directly apologize until this thread grows into a 20 page monster and I've ruined all credibility I once had a hope of having.
Staff Members B, C & D: We concur Durr!
I guess I am an anomaly then. A moderator gave me an incorrect warning and I gave my reasons to the person in charge of the area why it was incorrect. The warning was reversed and the moderator that gave me a warning apologized to me directly.
More or less. Administrations in the past were a lot less compromising and a lot less willing to put up with this sort of behavior. It wasn't suppression per se, I think that gives the impression that past administrations were completely unwilling to have a dialogue with users. We certainly did discuss things with the userbase, we just ignored users that couldn't conduct themselves at all productively. Such users could keep raving, we just didn't give them nearly as much consideration as users that voiced themselves rationally and productively. When users spoke reasonably, we listened. When they ranted, raved and got vitriolic, we were less inclined to listen.
I won't mince my words here, I think some users have gotten a little too used to the much more giving and compromising attitudes of the current administration. I don't think swinging the wheel hard the other way is in the staff's best interests, I don't think a draconic crackdown is reasonable at all. But I think a lot of this would be easier if the staff just stopped expending energy on users that can't seem to voice their concerns in a reasonable, mature manner. Thankfully, some users can, and those are the ones the staff should be focusing open dialogues on.
Ta. I'm the first to admit that not everything was flawless while I was an admin. I don't think things have ever been flawless here. I still think the current administration has made it their imperative to do right by the userbase, which makes it all the more bewildering that they've attracted more bitterness than the staff ever has.
I think that believing they were finally safe was probably exceptionally naive on their part. They were far, far more safe when 'seds and I were admins. The issues with them didn't really change over the years, but the number of pro-gutter staff members shrank over the years. They'd always been on thin ice and literally had countless "last warnings", I'm not sure why they'd ever feel safe even if they had settled into a calmer groove.
The Gutter may have the impression that the staff doesn't care or is angry at the gutterites, but they're honestly really wrong. The staff wasn't happy by anything that went down. I've seen the discussions, the staff looked for any and every way to do right by the Gutter. But then a few upset gutterites conducted themselves poorly. They were certainly emotional, justifiably so, but they still behaved poorly and some suffered consequences for it.
I sympathize with the gutterites, I truly do, I'm just not inclined to extend that sympathy to the way a few of them have treated the staff. Justifiably upset or not, I don't think that sort of behavior is necessary or productive. I think recent events have illustrated perfectly why users conducting themselves that way is counterproductive.
I'm sure it has been, and this is going to sound rather dismissive but I'm less concerned about them when staff burnout is this bad. There's only a finite number of posters that can competently run the site, I'm much more concerned about not running through them all. Ideally, I'd prefer both groups to be content, but if I had to prioritize one, it'd be the staff right now. Luckily, we're capable of addressing multiple issues at once so it's possible both groups' concerns can be addressed simultaneously.
Preaching to the choir. I actually said almost exactly this in the Mod Lounge this week.
I think that's unfair to a degree. Not that stubbornness and/or outright dismissal of discontented users didn't happen, but it certainly wasn't across the board. Nor were valid concerns presented maturely and rationally ignored. Past admins weren't jerkass dictators.
But I think there is a middle ground here and that the current administration may want to examine what worked in the past and why.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Petulant little brats...
You sound like a brat yourself right now mister. A sanctimonious brat, and not the only one. You are not helping the problem.
Look, I would love to join in the group hug fest. There is nothing I would like more than a
but a big community here was just eviscerated, and I don't know what to do.
You guys want healing? Well how about giving that massive wound a bit of tender loving care? I'll group hug you guys right in the feels if we can make some real progress.
He is not referring to you directly. He is referring to the moderators who are here saying they were not the problem. I am not passing judgment since I do not know what happened, just restating what the guy said. Sometimes we look back at history and remember the good, forget the bad, and gloss over the details.
I feel like I just show up to a book review and have not read the book, but have enough of idea as to what happened. In my opinion, a lot of sides are pissed about things that happened in the past, refuse to let go, and are letting those influence their actions thus perpetuating the cycle. Other then rooting out these people [removing them from the forums] or getting everyone to forgive and forget, nothing will change.
The moderators are not perfect here and the rules are stricter than I am used to, but this place is still a great place.
As contentious as it may seem, the above sums up the course of soooo many CI threads. The language used isn't the best and probably annoys some folks, but it really does a good job summarizing what happens in these threads.
Just my two cents on the matter.
Strong moderation is fine. Inconsistent or unprincipled moderation is not.
Most of the users are unaware that anything is going on. Even those who do are generally spectators and infrequent contributors to the growing number of witch hunt threads. It is disheartening to see so many mods being railroaded for no reason. I don't know why certain people are banding together to give the staff a hard time but it brings to mind the Gutter of old and their tactics for getting their way.
All are entitled to state their opinion. However, I agree that many people tend to do so in a malicious, slanderous manner.
What bigger picture? That MTGS is an internet forum and not life or death serious business?
You know, the leaker(s) probably felt they were doing a good thing. Just like the staff who kept the negotiations with Curse felt they were doing a good thing. When someone feels they're right voices of reason are often ignored.
I'm not going to name names, because they know who they are. Frankly, it's about time that the staff stopped giving into them and said enough is enough. I see what many of them claim to be as being in the best interest of the website, as wrestling for control and power without having the label. If you think about it, those individuals have had more control over the direction and end result of political squabbles on this website than the actual staff has had in quite some time. If MTGS were denied the Curse deal -a completion of which is really only beneficial to the community as a whole- it's not because of anything the staff has done but because of several individuals who will not keep their collective noses out from where they don't belong.
Here's some food for thought:
Once again, the majority of this drama comes from The Gutter, it's supporters and side-line commentators, and those that vicariously take part in the forum drama through providing commentary (whom have no stake in it staying or going and just feel the need to assert their voice). The drama ultimately stems from a sub-community on the website that does not consist of even close to 10% of our every day user base. If Curse does a 180 after seeing all this unfold over drama regarding that subgroup and a lack of control over their shenanigans and far too willingness to try to be transparent with them over issues regarding their subgroup, then that is damaging the other 90%+ of the user base. I'm not here putting The Gutter or it's users down because of some blind hatred for The Gutter; No, I'm here to say that this much energy and time being put into a very, very tiny portion of the community that neither really belongs here nor is mandatory is not right. Staff turn over and burn out due to something of a sub culture that is so miniscule is, to be blunt, asinine.
It's time for those users to let go or relocate elsewhere if things are supposedly that terrible here for them, because their issues do not effect the users who are here to use MTGS as a resource for what it was intended to be. They may have been in the right in some previous instances, but in this instance their interference from them and their supporters leaking in the staff are being nothing but selfish. This is a Magic: the Gathering community, not 4chan. If you ruin a deal that benefits the greater majority of the user base and Magic: the Gathering players here over your selfishness regarding your sub community and issues with authority, then that says a lot more about your characters than anything you try to push off onto our staff members. It's just plain time to shut the **** up. (No I'm not flaming, I'm using a very stern tone).
I'll just flat out tell you as the founder of this website: This website was not made for you to idle in an invisible sub forum and to provide you a soap box. This website was created as a haven for Magic: the Gathering players who want to discuss the card game and to save a community that actually had problems that lead to the entire staff leaving it's former home (the ridiculous comparisons of which to our small time political bullcrap need to stop, by the way) The fact that all this drama has stemmed from a subgroup that doesn't even remotely have to do with Magic: the Gathering discussion is a load of bollocks, and insulting to everyone who registers here for the purpose of being part of the community proper. Posting here was, is and will continue to be a privilege, not a right. Having a Debate, Water Cooler Talk or hidden sub forum is also a privilege. It's time that those users started to recognize that fact, and it's time for the staff to begin to enforce that fact. To further provide some perspective, those were an addendum to the forum structure that was brought over from MTGNews. MTGNews functioned without those and was very, very active in it's prime and frankly we would've been fine too. Stop and think about that for a moment.
When was the last time we actually had an issue regarding the state of a Magic: the Gathering discussion forum on this forum that was even treated like as a big of a deal as this entire, ridiculous Gutter saga? Other than a disgruntled user that got mad because they broke a rule they should've followed and got a warning? The competitive forum structure and moderatorship has been great for a long time, the mod situation in those areas is stable and the Rumor Mill is under control and we don't get a thread every other day from some disgruntled user who wanted to treat a Spam Warning like they got banned. Things where they actually should matter on this forum are in pretty good shape. That is what is actually important, and too many people have lost sight of that.
Frankly, I wish I were in that admin position again now that I'm nearly 7 years older and 7 years wiser. Energy and resources should be directed to how we can improve Magic: the Gathering discussion, not how we can help a small subgroup of users to make them feel empowered. Not by validating those users through granting too much recognition and time to issues that have no place in the big picture, only to have them abuse their priveledges as users on this website. Not to users who repeatedly abuse our staff who volunteer their time to help on a website about a card game they love, so they can turn around and get chased off with torches and pitchforks over issues that don't even belong here.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Yeah, this is a bad idea, and I think everyone agrees with that (staff, gutter, everyone but you and resonance)
So, the onus is on the people who are (arguably at best) trying to hurt the site, and not on those that are knowingly providing them with ammo to do it?
You mean like...the 15+ longstanding members who were banned? The only people who I might even think you are talking about are like...belgarath, az, and shaz, two of which are former admins.
And the leakers, I'd expect that nothing bad would have happened with this until the deal was finished if it hadn't been for the leakers, since...you know, they gave people the fuel for this whole debacle.
So, the majority of the drama comes from people posting in CI that aren't staff? I mean, what group isn't covered by this blanket? Yes, people who post in CI cause drama, because...well, CI is the place where we discuss drama (pegging chamber aside).
Are you really saying I don't have a right to post regarding the gutter because I'm not a member of the gutter, and that if I were a gutter member, by posting regarding the gutter I'd be trying to stir drama?
Not to mention that fact that you are doing just that. I'll admit I'm doing it too, but I won't say it isn't your right to as well. I'm attempting to get something accomplished, and as misguided as you feel that might be, it doesn't mean you should jump to the conclusion that what I (or anyone else here that is involved with this) is doing is detrimental to the site. Leave that blame to the leakers.
Yes
So, when someone is wrong, they should leave? (god I wish this was how the internet worked )
This also isn't strictly an MTG community, not anymore. (as evidenced by a thread started a few down, about removing all forums not related to MTG). It is a group of forums tangentially related by some (current or prior) interest in MTG.
Also, They have left
Is this supposed to give you the right to lecture me on what the forum is?
So, again: This.
Yes, and obviously, if you were an admin, that right would have been revoked for many of the people posting here long ago. Luckily, the current admins have the foresight to realize that having reasonable discourse with those whom they disagree with is a really could way to make positive things happen, as long as that discourse remains civil (which for the most part, it has, and those who haven't been are gone with little exception).
To you, certainly, obviously not to some others.
And thank goodness you aren't.
Thank you for founding this site. Its wonderful. I love discussing standard and edh strategy, and discussing spoilers and rumors. The spoiler system that this site has is the best.
It isn't your thing. The forum you founded belongs no more to you than it does to any other person here, and if all you are going to do is tell people who are engaging in reasonable and respectful discussion that they are being detrimental to the site, you are the one that should sit back, think, and try to be more constructive than whatever this was, because trying to throw the blame that lies with staff at other people won't do anything but inflame tension.
EDIT: If I didn't make this clear, blame lies with other people too. I probably have some of this on my shoulders, but the staff has some of it, and they know it. It isn't your place (or mine, or anyone but the current staff's) to say whether or not anyone has the right to post here, and the holier-than-thou attitude does nothing to calm anyone
Just a little reminder: This is Magic: the Gathering Salvation, not Social Chatter For Elitist Groups and Random Unrelated Drama Sandbox. There is SomethingAwful, 4Chan and many a discussion board where all that should've gone ages ago.
Magic: the Gathering.
This website is about that, not you, them or the ability to argue for the sake of arguing without really having anything to say. Once again, what this website is here and exists for has become lost.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Interesting that you mention SA, given their moderation policies, the fact that they charge money to create accounts, and the fact that attempting MTGS CI-style drama on there would get you flat-up banned. If we tried to be like SA in even the first and third points, there'd probably be backlash unlike anything the site has ever seen.
It's something to think about, at any rate.
Considering how well received it was and how much input the staff gave, I would except that wouldn't happen. Megs did post 3 whole sentences while dismissing it.
So, any attempt to change something by talking to the staff is some evil agenda? That's certainly what it sounds like.
Azreal: such a good troll he became admin.
I think I said that. I'm one of those awkward sideline cases you mentioned. Not that the staff has kissed the collective asses of the users, that would be unbanning the former gutter members, something they've said they won't do, and so far have not. I'm fine with that. I want things to be better going forward, and the attitude that the staff should go full dictator and ignore any attempt to communicate with the more vocal portions of the userbase.
Not to mention how horrifically this would perpetuate the us vs. them attitude that everyone (but you) agrees is one of the biggest dramabombg inflating issues.
Yes, 7 years ago. Now it is
Honestly, I just threw it out there as it was discussion board that came to mind that was designed with the intention of a broader range of subject. That is to say, SA isn't founded on the idea of discussion regarding facets of a particular subject like we are here. But you're completely right and I'd never suggest to try that.
Personally, I wouldn't want it to come to that. While I tried to drive home the point that the existence of those forums is a privilege, many of the non-Magic forums I use myself. I actively peruse (but generally do not post in) WCT, Blogs, the Creative section and Entertainment. It is also a matter of toxicity, though. When you're having to constantly dump resources into cleaning up after a user base for those forums that makes those toxic, then facing backlash from trying to make adjustments making another toxic situation, eventually you have to weigh the situation and the worth of those things.
(Separating this from my response to Shazbot since it's not directly a reponse to that post)
Also, putting this out there: I'm not saying the staff are innocent in any drama that's happened, but when you have people over worked and over stressed who are made to feel like they're walking on eggshells due to a subgroup of people who will always criticize any decision made... well, you reap what you sow. Don't keep people walking on high wire and then act surprised when they eventually fall off. This entire saga is an example of cause and effect, from both ends. An unnecessary, drawn out, useless saga that does not belong.
And yes, this is a community with several pillars and that's all fine and dandy. However, Magic: the Gathering being put on an equal level with anything else and not being the forefront of concern and resources was and is a mistake. I'm hoping a buy out from Curse will help remedy that. We should be working on getting official previews and how we can improve the longevity of the greatest part of this community, among several other things. Not watching faceless people making other human beings get so stressed that they no longer want to help the cause. Sene, or any one else stepping down to due to stress not even related to Magic, is quite frankly a tragedy for this website's community as a whole.
I may come off as very hard-line and stern, but that doesn't mean I'm not someone who can't be agreeable. There are just many things that should be more important than all this that I'm tired of seeing so much focus put into. If there is any doubt that this website's main purpose is to be a resource for Magic: the Gathering, then that just goes further to prove my point that focus has been lost and needs to be refound. There are many a thing the staff could be doing other than this, that would benefit what the real majority of our user base are here for, instead of spending so much time stuck in tribunals, being grilled, etc.
You know why it's always the same faces in CI threads? Because that 90%+ of the user base I keep mentioning, are out there using our forums, oblivious to all this. If someone gets banned, most of them will shrug and not even know who that user was. If Curse takes over, they'll appreciate new resources and probably a new front page and won't think anything of it otherwise. Some times, someone will get curious and wander in here and post their two cents and let their voice be heard, but the majority of the time? Those users don't care, because that's how little all of this effects them in the bigger picture. That, in and of itself, is partly why I want to see resources being put into a place where a difference can be noticed or make forum quality of life better for those users, however that may be. Those users' traffic keep this website afloat, not the 12-15 that come to CI to grill the staff over a grievance in a place all those users don't even know about.
(Also known as Xenphire)
That is true. It is essentially the same concept as well.
Xen-
The gutter changed a lot over the years. Drama and trouble making were unquestionably a non-issue for a long time. The moment drama happened? When it was announced that the gutter was being closed. It was pretty much clean sailing before that though.
Couldn't agree more! If there wasn't a mod lounge, there wouldn't be leaks of mod lounge material.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
Not at all apparent from the paragraph, and any way is equally applicable to both.
Those messages aren't private?
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
(Also known as Xenphire)