Let me tell you, being an admin is much harder and complicated than it looks, and making changes takes time. Especially after the Gutter closure incident, where we got (well deserved) flak for not including the vanilla staff in the decision, and we started to include the whole staff in most decisions. Not just that, we also included Community Issues in many of the discussions. All this together means that things take time. A lot of time. Everything is debated to death due to the heavy, heavy emphasis on staff transparency, and one admin's thoughts and opinions actually matter way less than you would think. And I pretty much never pulled the admin card and said "you have [this position] while I'm an admin, so overruled". All the voices mattered, so we talked it out.
Admins clearly have a lot of impact, but quite as much as you'd think.
I don't have access to it anymore, but like I said earlier, anyone is free to quote any relevant Mod Lounge post I've ever posted. It should be said that this was part of a misunderstanding regarding the Gutter that was later cleared up, but that kpaca heard about and made him react.
I'll third this. The speed at which things at which we were trying to do things when myself, Sakabatou and Wolfwood were admins was a largely contributing factor to how things went sour. Change must happen slow to take into account all potential pros and cons. You can't make changes on a whim and expect them to go over well. We can all see how much resistance pops up from the typical crowd trying to fight the man, so to speak, when careful consideration goes into a decision. If you just do things without consulting the rest of the staff (or some times the user base if the subject calls for it)? Good luck there.
Of course, I do understand; but, isn`t a resignation kinda equal to a capitulation, and didn`t you just resign, Sene?
Of course, again, I really do understand your motivation et al (and I certainly don`t blame you, as others have already said it, you were a really great admin), but I fear that with every voice of reason less, things will turn for the worse.
That`s kinda my worry.
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"Petals within petals within petals, tadpole. The truth lurks below an opulence of illusion."
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
This really struck a chord in me because I can really relate to this. I find it increasingly harder and harder each day to think that the staff has things on the right track when there has been so much fallout in the last few months. I want to believe, but I just can't.
Despite people saying to leave the staff alone and say that every thing is going to be fine, well, there's only so much of that you can listen to before you start to wonder what's really going on behind the scenes. I posted a thread a long time ago asking why so many mods were let go, and I was told that we were only going through a transition and a change in the culture of the staff. Everything was fine, which was basically what staff members told me. Fast forward to today and I'm beginning to second guess what I was told several months ago. It just might be the fact that I'm still really young compared to a lot of people here, but I feel we should be questioning authority. I have never seen this amount of turmoil in the history of MTG Salvation.
Every site, every game, every business goes through periods of transitions, through ups and downs as old people leave and new people come in, and policies are adjusted to handle changes in expectations, changes in the world at large, and even changes in ownership. How those transitions are handled is what often sets the tone for the future. Sometimes the transitions go poorly and the entity is never the same, sometimes it goes poorly and the entity is able to claw its way back to the top. It will be hard to say what the case will be here until the dust settles and what changes will need to be made should the site get sold. The inevitable problem with a high turnover rate with any entity, is that it creates an unstable environment as mass amounts of new people are given positions, and mass amounts are promoted to fill holes, creating so many transitions for people at once that it can be difficult for everything to be able to handle the load and things will go downhill a bit until things are able to stabilize again and the entity is able to work through that time and hopefully come out better by the end of it. Lack of stability always creates problems, everyone has their own ideas about how things should be run, and how things should be handled, different people at the top will filter down the lines and the customers or users will notice the difference and some will like it while others dont.
I worked at the same fast food place (A local Dairy Queen) for 5 years. I was a manager for 2 of those years, and an assistant to the managers/regular worker for the last two years. Naturally in such a business there is going to be a lot of turnover. Sometimes it was just a person here or manager there, which was something that wasnt a big deal. Sometimes several of the better workers/managers would leave at the same time, and things would get very difficult to handle for a little while. It put a lot more pressure on the management and the owner to make sure things were still running smoothly while we dealt with a much lower amount of experience across the board, and lots of new workers to bring up to speed. People can come to rely on certain workers/managers to take care of things and never think about it until they are suddenly gone, and then realize just how much those people did to keep the place running smoothly.
The problem with volunteer positions and such, is, at the end of the day, if the people volunteering decide that the time and effort they are putting in is no longer worth it, they will quit. Lately what we have seen is that a ton of long-time great knowledgeable people have left for various reasons, and many have left because of burnout. The more that leave, the more pressure it puts on the other older mods, and the more it inevitably pushes towards burnout. The issues going on, also can scare away some very capable individuals who may want to help but decide from the outside looking in, that it wouldnt be worth it due to all of the issues. Because of all the turnover, and the issues that keep coming up, the userbase isnt given a feeling of stability that they want to be able to feel so they can simply sit back and enjoy the site like they would like to do. They keep running into new changes, into new mods handling things in different ways, and the combination can create situations like we've seen where the inexperience can lead to minor missteps which can turn into much larger issues. When issues stack on top of issues, stack on top of more issues, it creates an environment where the people that are supposed to be dealing with the older issues, are no longer on staff and things can fall by the wayside, or change in how they are being handled because the people in charge of handling them are changing. The lack of consistency inevitably drives the userbase crazy, or at least the ones that may look at the site as a whole and thus see all of the issues compounding upon eachother and wonder what the heck is going on.
I dont blame the users, I dont blame the mods, I blame the situation that was caused by a few missteps, by people leaving, and by new people being thrown into a position they might not be fully prepared for without a transition period that the current situation with the site may not properly allow. The users become jaded, the mods become jaded, and we end up with both sides, instead of working together, taking sides against eachother because of each sides perceived lack of respect, trust, and otherwise from the other.
With all of the insanity that is going on in the real world these days, people want to come here to relax and enjoy talking about magic, or whatever else they may want to talk about depending upon the area of the forums they frequent. The mods simply want to be able to do their job and not worry about a dramabomb going off every few days that takes away from their ability to do their job and to be able to enjoy parts of the site that they like themselves. I havent become a mod, even after being offered a position, because I know that my current schedule with my business/family/otherwise wouldnt allow me to spend the proper amount of time the position deserves. Lately with all of this stuff hitting the fan, Ive felt the need to spend time here I really dont even have, to try to help everyone come together to deal with these situations and help come to resolutions, I simply dont want to see the site in a position like its been more recently and want to do anything I can to help to deal with it, in the capacity I have at least, as a normal user, with sympathy and understanding for people on both sides of the discussion/issues/etc.
Im hopeful that with recent progress that has been made in at least one of the threads that we can begin to move forward in a way that will help bring stability to the site and create a time of peace and enjoyment here for everyone. Its still going to take a good amount of time and effort by the mods and userbase, but Im still very hopeful that we will get there.
So essentially what I'm hearing here is that we're in a state where catastrophic (used clinically, not dramatically, mind you) social Diminishing Returns is in effect? As mistrust piles onto mistrust, it becomes more difficult to enact change, and the possibility of negative response to that change increases, as well as the higher chance of partial process failure (in the effect of people leaving, moles, etc.)?
So essentially what I'm hearing here is that we're in a state where catastrophic (used clinically, not dramatically, mind you) social Diminishing Returns is in effect? As mistrust piles onto mistrust, it becomes more difficult to enact change, and the possibility of negative response to that change increases, as well as the higher chance of partial process failure (in the effect of people leaving, moles, etc.)?
I'd say there is a vicious circle, yes. As staff makes mistakes, the backlash is so negative, so overwhelming, that it's difficult to pull together, face it, and try to take the good with the bad. And as the CI "drama" continues, staff burnout happens, even among those not directly targeted (emphasis this), and as a result there will be more bad decisions, more apathy, more burnout, and more resignations, and it will suck.
By all means, mods make mistakes! Absolutely! But work with the staff, don't go overboard and use loaded language or demand mods' heads, that's just going to cause immense frustration and nothing else, treat people with respect, and trust me, things will work out. But it does not hinge on the staff alone. To not have everything we love around here go down the drain, the regular users need to not burn the mods out, which is what is happening right this instant.
I bet that you all wish the best for this place - I mean, that's why many of you are so upset. But trust me on this, the best way to get things back the way it should be is to seriously cool down.
This is my opinion, and not that of the moderator, but I have a serious problem with how we are dealing with problems and drama at this time. WTC aside (because I only have a layman's view of the problem based on ML talks and the thread in CI), some of these posts against the staff have been absolutely horrible, and it feels more like answering daggers, than "legitimate" complaints.
I just want a highlight a few I have seen:
Now I could keep going, but I think my point here is clear: There is far too much of these potshots being taken at each others expense, and some of these aren't even against the moderators. But here our a list of points I wanted to make about this whole situation. Note that again, this is my suggestion/opinion, not any type of formal request
1). This negativity has to stop if any productivity is going to take place.
No one is going to argue or talk things out logically if every other post is a snipe, troll or flame. All that's going to happen is that we are all going to circle jerk for God knows long. So if you don't have something nice/productive to say, shove it.
2). Users asking for moderator resignations.
You are so so so out of line here, it revolts me. If this (bannings/Curse) is the moderator's version of handling things poorly, the "Gloves" thread is the user's version. The posts in there asking for Arcadic's resignation, how dare you. Complain to an administrator, talk it out, but publicly asking for someone to step down: What exactly did you think would happen? Would Arcadic happily oblige, or were you just trying to fan the flames?
3). Agree to Disagree
To anyone who thinks Kpaca or Kijin should be unbanned, I would be astonished if we could ever talk together and cooperate. The others who were banned are debatable (bar Clock King), but those two goofed so hard when they were already on the thinnest ice imaginable, and to consider giving them yet another chance is so beyond me, I don't even have the (appropriate) words for it. There is one thing I agree with Arcadic in his rant: Who ever is leaking this information is not doing the site a service at all. That person may have single handily ruined any potential deal with Curse, and should quite frankly, be ashamed of themselves.
Rant over. We should all be chilling right now, and be a little kinder to each other.
How can you, with a straight face, ask everyone to stop being so negative and stop sniping when in the same post you tell anyone who thinks Arcadiac should have been demodded to shove it?
Further more, how can you ask for people to work together, then state that anyone who disagrees with you you can't work with?
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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How can you, with a straight face, ask everyone to stop being so negative and stop sniping when in the same post you tell anyone who thinks Arcadiac should have been demodded to shove it?
Further more, how can you ask for people to work together, then state that anyone who disagrees with you you can't work with?
I notice also how his entire post is a long string of pot shots at other people. Seems like a long, hard look in the mirror is in order. Tensions are running high again around here, and there is absolutely nothing in the post you quoted that does anything to calm them, and in fact is basically does exactly the opposite. Ouch.
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The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
How can you, with a straight face, ask everyone to stop being so negative and stop sniping when in the same post you tell anyone who thinks Arcadiac should have been demodded to shove it?
Further more, how can you ask for people to work together, then state that anyone who disagrees with you you can't work with?
How can you, with a straight face, mix up my points when I went to an effort to seperate those points? I specifically said those who have nothing nice/productive to say, shove it. It means no more of these knives in the dark, but to work together. Nice and productive are not kin with each other, so I realize you can only be so polite when erring a grievence, but I love how you failed to answer a point that was to you: What exactly were you hoping to acomplish with that statement? As in, you are free to pm Arcadic, or even bring it to an admin (like I am sure some of you did).
I notice also how his entire post is a long string of pot shots at other people. Seems like a long, hard look in the mirror is in order. Tensions are running high again around here, and there is absolutely nothing in the post you quoted that does anything to calm them, and in fact is basically does exactly the opposite. Ouch.
And of course, you respond with the exact kind of post that is doing nothing but stirring the pot. If anything could be taken as a pot shot, it would be my comment to the leaker of this information, who if you are taking offense to, you probably have a larger issue that what is currently going on.
The posts I found were nothing more than the last page of a few ongonig threads, I wasn't cherry picking posts, and I am sure I would find many other users posting in a way very akin to the posts I picked out if I continued to go looking.
Also, sarcasm may seem funny to you, but it makes it very difficult to take you seriously when all I am trying to do is make a point. However, based on your avatar, and attitude in this thread, I have accepted there is no point, however legitimate, I could make to sway you. You clearly believe the behavior existed by the unknown leaker, and those of you who received the information and refused to tell the staff is acceptable. I (and I think I can safetly say most of the staff), believe it is unacceptable. So, we have ourselves a stand-off.
Azreal, I'll get to your post when I am in front of my own computer but for now:
How can you, with a straight face, mix up my points when I went to an effort to seperate those points? I specifically said those who have nothing nice/productive to say, shove it. It means no more of these knives in the dark, but to work together. Nice and productive are not kin with each other, so I realize you can only be so polite when erring a grievence, but I love how you failed to answer a point that was to you: What exactly were you hoping to acomplish with that statement? As in, you are free to pm Arcadic, or even bring it to an admin (like I am sure some of you did).
And of course, you respond with the exact kind of post that is doing nothing but stirring the pot. If anything could be taken as a pot shot, it would be my comment to the leaker of this information, who if you are taking offense to, you probably have a larger issue that what is currently going on.
The posts I found were nothing more than the last page of a few ongonig threads, I wasn't cherry picking posts, and I am sure I would find many other users posting in a way very akin to the posts I picked out if I continued to go looking.
Also, sarcasm may seem funny to you, but it makes it very difficult to take you seriously when all I am trying to do is make a point. However, based on your avatar, and attitude in this thread, I have accepted there is no point, however legitimate, I could make to sway you. You clearly believe the behavior existed by the unknown leaker, and those of you who received the information and refused to tell the staff is acceptable. I (and I think I can safetly say most of the staff), believe it is unacceptable. So, we have ourselves a stand-off.
So instead of explaining why you feel it's okay to tell users who aren't being nice and kind to one another to shove it, you deflect and claim that I'm the one has who has a problem because I asked Arcadiac to resign?
Your condescending tone in the face of legit complaints is bothering to say the least. All I see you doing is taking more pot shots at users who you have deemed as "pot stirrers" (paraphrasing) and deflecting your own problems onto Ein and I by attacking Ein's avatar and still pushing the point that you're offended when Mastergee and I asked Arcadiac to resign.
For someone who claims to want things to move along, you certainly aren't trying very hard.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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So instead of explaining why you feel it's okay to tell users who aren't being nice and kind to one another to shove it, you deflect and claim that I'm the one has who has a problem because I asked Arcadiac to resign?
Your original point was that I said those asking for Arcadic's resignation, should shove it. I showed you I instead said this. There is a world of difference between the two. And yes, if you aren't being productive, or trying to be civil, you should shove it. Would this even be an issue if I had instead said: Please reconsider posting? I mean the exact same thing.
Your condescending tone in the face of legit complaints is bothering to say the least. All I see you doing is taking more pot shots at users who you have deemed as "pot stirrers" (paraphrasing) and deflecting your own problems onto Ein and I by attacking Ein's avatar and still pushing the point that you're offended when Mastergee and I asked Arcadiac to resign.
Condescending? Condescending? Is this some kind of bad joke? Do you not understand that posts like Ein's last one do nothing? The hardest part of the job is to try and respond as neutral as possible. I have been watching this thread for a while, and all I tried to do with my last point is highlight why I, the mods, and I am willing to bet some of the users feel like we aren't going anywhere, feelings are hurt, and why we seem to be losing so many moderators
For someone who claims to want things to move along, you certainly aren'ttrying very hard.
I am trying as hard as I can, while trying to be as polite/direct as my position will allow me to be, without being jumped on. I am a very blunt person (as you might have noticed in our few discussions).
Harkius/Bele, thank you for the advice. After my student teaching, I will try this again, starting with many of Az's good points.
Your original point was that I said those asking for Arcadic's resignation, should shove it. I showed you I instead said this. There is a world of difference between the two. And yes, if you aren't being productive, or trying to be civil, you should shove it. Would this even be an issue if I had instead said: Please reconsider posting? I mean the exact same thing.
Telling anyone to shove it, regardless of situation, is grossly inappropriate. Especially if there's going to be a civil discourse about a difficult situation. It doesn't matter what one person said, or how difficult anyone is being.
Your original point was that I said those asking for Arcadic's resignation, should shove it. I showed you I instead said this. There is a world of difference between the two. And yes, if you aren't being productive, or trying to be civil, you should shove it. Would this even be an issue if I had instead said: Please reconsider posting? I mean the exact same thing.
Condescending? Condescending? Is this some kind of bad joke? Do you not understand that posts like Ein's last one do nothing? The hardest part of the job is to try and respond as neutral as possible. I have been watching this thread for a while, and all I tried to do with my last point is highlight why I, the mods, and I am willing to bet some of the users feel like we aren't going anywhere, feelings are hurt, and why we seem to be losing so many moderators
I am trying as hard as I can, while trying to be as polite/direct as my position will allow me to be, without be jumped on. I am a very blunt person (as you might have noticed in our few discussions)
Harkius/Bele, thank you for the advice. After my student teaching, I will try this again, starting with many of Az's good points.
Yes please reconsider posting isn't charged language that makes users feel scared to post. You, as a moderator, should not be using charged language such as telling users to "shove it".
ein's last post does quite a bit, it shows that you, as a moderator, are just taking pot shots at users and not being neutral, despite what you should be doing as a moderator of MTGS.
As far as this "world of difference of which you speak" you said this: "There is far too much of these potshots being taken at each others expense, and some of these aren't even against the moderators. But here our a list of points I wanted to make about this whole situation. " in the original post. This was obviously targetted and Mastergee, Brandon, Xyre, and myself as the above quotes had shown. You have an obvious implication that we're just being negative for the sake of being negative and not helping discussion, and then you later go and say "No one is going to argue or talk things out logically if every other post is a snipe, troll or flame. All that's going to happen is that we are all going to circle jerk for God knows long. So if you don't have something nice/productive to say, shove it." Now in this previous quote you've shown that anyone sniping, trolling or flaming, which you implicitly through subtext accused the users you quoted of doing, to shove it.
It's hidden in layers of double speak and subtext, but it's there and I'm very offended that a moderator of MTGS told myself, a former mod, and other users to shove it in such a public manner.
I realize that you're trying to remain neutral, just please stop using charged language and try a little harder to not be so abrasive as you are a moderator and should be held to a higher standard.
edit: also nathed a little by epee.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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Telling anyone to shove it, regardless of situation, is grossly inappropriate.
As in the idea of shutting up/keeping it to yourself, or are you actually arguing on my word choice?
Especially if there's going to be a civil discourse about a difficult situation. It doesn't matter what one person said, or how difficult anyone is being.
It matters in the sense of do we want to spend weeks or months on trudging through this situation? I assume for most, it would be the former.
I'll preface this by saying that I wrote out a post very similar to Yanni's, but refrained from making it yesterday, because I felt it wasn't conductive to anything useful.
[COLOR=darkblue]
As in the idea of shutting up/keeping it to yourself, or are you actually arguing on my word choice?
Both, but mainly the latter. You tell people to not take postshots and use charged language while doing both. While maybe not intentionally, it comes across as hypocritical.
I also want to point out that I think that kpaca and Kijin's bans should both come under heavy consideration if not outright change to suspensions, and I'd ask anyone to find a place where I acted in a heated or contentious manner.
EDIT: read this before the currently banned users post. I see that it has, and I can understand and respect the actions taken, although I may disagree in part.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I'll preface this by saying that I wrote out a post very similar to Yanni's, but refrained from making it yesterday, because I felt it wasn't conductive to anything useful.
Both, but mainly the latter. You tell people to not take postshots and use charged language while doing both. While maybe not intentionally, it comes across as hypocritical.
Fine.
I am sorry if anyone was hurt by the use of the phrase 'shove it'. I figured no one would think twice about that, and realize the big picture of what I meant, but clearly, it wasn't interpreted that way.
I also want to point out that I think that kpaca and Kijin's bans should both come under heavy consideration if not outright change to suspensions, and I'd ask anyone to find a place where I acted in a heated or contentious manner.
If you read the Currently Banned thread, EP said both would have been suspended, had they not already been on probation (as I hinted on my 'thinnest of ice' analogy).
Everybody is taking potshots at each other calling out the potshots, and the irony is palpable.
TCM: Take a step back please. You've said your piece. Edit: Thank you for the apology. As moderators, we need to consider that our words, no matter how we intend them, come from a position of authority and that colors what we say.
Everybody else: You've made your point. Please stop. Further clamoring is not productive.
We're letting his essential point, that we're letting our anger get in the way of real discussion, get clouded by... surprise, our anger! Discussing what TCM said, the tone of his post, etc., is really not appropriate for this thread.
I've been really, really encouraged by our progress in working together in a respectful manner as a community in the WCT discussion thread, and I would ask that we try and move in that direction here.
Thanks.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Also, sarcasm may seem funny to you, but it makes it very difficult to take you seriously when all I am trying to do is make a point. However, based on your avatar, and attitude in this thread, I have accepted there is no point, however legitimate, I could make to sway you. You clearly believe the behavior existed by the unknown leaker, and those of you who received the information and refused to tell the staff is acceptable. I (and I think I can safetly say most of the staff), believe it is unacceptable. So, we have ourselves a stand-off.
How you figure that I wasn't *also* trying to make a point, and instead using sarcasm is beyond me? I even suggested a plausible course of action based on what I saw in the post he quoted! That that course of action was taken as an affront (I assume?) is not on my shoulders. I cannot control how others will respond to the posts I've made, or whether they will take offense for something that wasn't offensive (or, certainly, vice versa!). It is up to each individual to decide how they are going to read them.
I get you're concerned that people not pile onto acradic for the vitriol in the post he was carded for, but the real question is, why not go to each of them personally (via PM for instance, rather than posting here), tell them why that post was unacceptable, and coach them on how to make it, for lack of a better term, more palatable? Directives from mods carry weight, do they not?
For example, you can say this:
"I know you're frustrated at acradic's behavior, but what you've posted is unacceptable language. Why not instead try something like ___________ (<--this is where you get to practice your coaching) if you feel the need to express your opinion on this matter?"
Then you could point them to the staff code of conduct and the section on staff image,
Quote from "staff code of conduct" »
With regards to post content, as a representative of the forum, you are expected to conduct yourself in a professional manner at all times. If you might be unable to do so for any reason (emotional duress, intoxication, et cetera) refrain from posting, or at the very least from performing staff duties.
and suggest that rather than making vague complaints they could read up on how staff are supposed to conduct themselves and instead make a well reasoned and impassioned, but acceptable post language-wise, that explains how they believe arcadic is seemingly not living up to a pledge he signed and how they feel this undermines the type of community these forums are attempting to create.
This was just an example, but rather than assuming an avatar tells you someone's response, maybe you could try and actually have a conversation with them and see! Telling someone they can't fish the way they're fishing is infinitely less productive than taking the time to teach them to fish the correct way!
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The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
We're letting his essential point, that we're letting our anger get in the way of real discussion, get clouded by... surprise, our anger! Discussing what TCM said, the tone of his post, etc., is really not appropriate for this thread.
I've been really, really encouraged by our progress in working together in a respectful manner as a community in the WCT discussion thread, and I would ask that we try and move in that direction here.
Thanks.
The issue with that happening here (besides it being a much more important issue) is that the bannings are between the banned members and the mods at this point, we (users) won't have much input at this point other than saying "yeah, they deserve to be gone" or "these mods are autocrats."
This thread has sort of served its purpose at this point.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I think some things could be put into perspective regarding this debacle:
The fact is that Gutter members are being considered "scumbags" by a no small part of the staff is rather unsettling, to say the very least.
To put things into perspective, you'd have to take into account that the Gutter has just found out that we have been lied to since the whole time, and that the plan to shutdown the gutter (see the CI thread) is intimately linked to the sale to Curse. Since these 2.5 months, there has been a so-called compromise thread where the alternatives to closing down the Gutter have been discussed for 1115 (and counting!) posts. The negotiation process was... strange... to say the least. Issues would be discussed, and generally the Gutter would come with a compromise, and all of a sudden something else would be thrown on the table every time a compromise would be close to be reached.
This can be seen as a classic case of stalling now that we learned that we have been lied all this time. As the saying goes, confidence is like virginity: you can only lose it once.
Now as per the leaks, and taking into account that our community has slowly but steadily lost faith in the sincerity of the upper staff, you enter one further equation in this distrust on the word of the staff.
The anonymous leakers on the staff, as well as the persons who spilled the beams in the Gutter are being treated to niceties like being called "The scum of the Earth" et al. but has it been considered for a single second that their actions might not have been motivated by selfishness, but rather the contrary?
- Maybe some staff members silently disagreed with these "smoke and mirrors" tactics and thought that the community that was being shutdown deserved to know the truth about what was happening?
- Maybe N_S and then the recently banned members thought that people in the community deserved a little token of respect, and to be prepared to what was coming forward?
While the closure was legitimate from a practical point of view (privately owned forum, no first amendment, yadda yadda) maybe the fact that this was a huge blow to a strong community could have been handled better? Maybe you could have explained that while this was a huge blow to a small subset of the community, there where a lot of benefits for the userbase at large, that you were sympathetic to our plight, but that the needs of the forums at large superseeded our own needs? That you could assist us in moving our subforum history somewhere else? maybe providing us with the sql dumps of all the gutter posts if we wished to host them elsewhere and keep our community alive?
I know, crazy ideas.
I mean (in more blunt terms), we were keeping the staff's dirty secret, why did the staff feel the need to kick us in the nuts at every juncture?
And yet, the Gutter showed you guys much more respect that you deserved. At anytime N_S or everyone could have posted in the rumor mill about the sale, or in the open, and they didn't. They didn't even when they kept being kicked in the balls on a daily basis for the last month. N_S was banned, yet it seems he never took the care to come back under a gimmick and spill the beams in here or somewhere else...
The gutter members, even the banned ones, showed much more restraint and honesty than the staff itself. This could be something to consider everytime you guys flame the members of a community that did nothing else that defend themselves from attacks.
The Guttermods were not staff members. they didn't abide by the Staff CoC. Their responsibilities were to take care and protect their community: the Gutter. This is what they did when they informed their userbase they had been lied to all this time. The accusations of selfishness are therefore invalid as it was out of deep care for their userbase that they did what they did.
------------
As for the recent bannings and banning revisions, they reek of kangaroo courts yet again. The suspended/banned thread states that kijin and kpaca were banned because they where already under probation.
Why were they on probation? For voting in a poll/thanking a post while suspended (for some bogus reasons).
We kept being spit in the face for 2.5months and this is the end result. But I'll be damned if I think we can take the blame for this. There is only so much that the "battered wife" syndrome can help us in beautifying reality.
------------
As a closing comment, I am not even taking the time to comment Arcadic's behavior, because it is despicable enough to speak for itself, but I cannot resist in quoting some older lecturing that The Cold Monarch was addressing to some Gutter members in the fake negotiations thread:
Emotion shows nothing but weakness. If you can't control yourself about a web forum, than I would say you have larger issues than simply dealing with something on a website.
If the mafia sub forum were to be shut down, I would protest loudly, but not inappropriately. The second you turn inappropriate is the second people stop defending you.
I do feel like people aren't really listening though... The Senior Staff knew about the sale a long time ago but until very recently it was spoke on as a "potential sale." We heard from a few people at Curse and got some varying opinions on things here and didn't know how exactly the Gutter would factor into things. Do we proceed with Gutter talks or do we just wait until we get a better picture of what Curse wants? Well, we didn't even know for sure (still don't I guess) if they were buying or where Hannes was at so we had to keep moving as if we are still the ones making the final calls here. The timing of Curse showing up was really bad for everyone. I didn't want to make promises or compromises with the Gutter knowing that in a month they might get shredded by a new company's Terms of Service. But I also couldn't really tell people why I couldn't make those promises or compromises.
I know people feel lied to, but the ownership of the site isn't really a public issue. It's between the owner and the future owner - we were made privy to this information because Hannes/Admins wanted feedback and saw that a sale mattered a lot to how we run the day to day back in July. And, there is clearly nothing I can say to change your mind, but the current development with the Gutter and its future location/status was not something we really had enough information to go on until very recently. We've tried to teeter our desire to fix things with the requirement to keep our mouths shut about a business transaction.
Here's an easy request for Ye Mods to bump up the chain, re: this whole crisis.
Before I heard about this whole issue, I had no idea what "probation" was beyond the immediate context of the episode itself. It took me fifteen minutes of searching the forum to even piece together a working definition of probation (from here and here), and that seems like a poor way of managing the issue.
I think the Forum Rules need either a subsection or link to a separate post on the issue of ban appeals, probation, and how members affected by each will be treated by the staff/affected by future infractions, separate from the current "X infractions = suspension of Y weeks" part.
Because to an outsider like me, the easiest conclusion to draw, right or not, is that probation is managed on a case-by-case, as-we-feel-like-it standard, which does not reflect well on your leadership.
Anyway - I think this would be a small thing that would make everyone happier.
Xyre, probations are a rather rare occurrence, to the point that it's typically easier to teach them to those affected than rely on them being absorbed by the relevant members of our 100,000 users.
kpaca and Kijin were a unique situation though. Both had two counts of evasion (the same two counts) in the area of the site that they had powers over: once for evading the penalty box via gimmick when it was in effect, and once for using a gimmick to vote in a poll while suspended. These were each auto-ban offenses, but each was the first of its kind, and the staff wasn't comfortable banning for the second which was on the innocuous side, and an argument was made for the first that the rules were unclear. Both were highly contentious issues and neither left anyone on staff feeling particularly good walking away. We had two users who were evading site privileges repeatedly and scraping by without real repercussions. This felt unfair to our other users and very problematic to the site in general (curbing gimmick evasion is a massive time sink for the staff, and one that we can't afford to take a light stance on). Finally, the staff said that enough was enough: we'd implement probations on these two users paired with a ban from all gimmick usage due to their repeated problems with them.
Probations are the stock answer for returning banned users, and have never been used elsewhere other than the specific extreme situation described above.
I don't mind creating an addendum to the rules for this, but I feel the gains would be marginal at best.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I would at least like to see a link to the banned member appeal announcement somewhere in the main forum rules - although there is a link to the B&S Appeal forum in the rules, it makes it difficult to determine things about probations, how they affect a member, and so forth without having to scour through pages of the relevant CI thread.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former Level 2 Judge (Retired / Renounced)
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
I would at least like to see a link to the banned member appeal announcement somewhere in the main forum rules - although there is a link to the B&S Appeal forum in the rules, it makes it difficult to determine things about probations, how they affect a member, and so forth without having to scour through pages of the relevant CI thread.
This is fair. I think having it directly available to banned users in the Ban/Suspension appeal forum is also an oversight that needs fixing.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Quote from votan »
:ER:, you suck as a hero
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Of course, I do understand; but, isn`t a resignation kinda equal to a capitulation, and didn`t you just resign, Sene?
Of course, again, I really do understand your motivation et al (and I certainly don`t blame you, as others have already said it, you were a really great admin), but I fear that with every voice of reason less, things will turn for the worse.
That`s kinda my worry.
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
Every site, every game, every business goes through periods of transitions, through ups and downs as old people leave and new people come in, and policies are adjusted to handle changes in expectations, changes in the world at large, and even changes in ownership. How those transitions are handled is what often sets the tone for the future. Sometimes the transitions go poorly and the entity is never the same, sometimes it goes poorly and the entity is able to claw its way back to the top. It will be hard to say what the case will be here until the dust settles and what changes will need to be made should the site get sold. The inevitable problem with a high turnover rate with any entity, is that it creates an unstable environment as mass amounts of new people are given positions, and mass amounts are promoted to fill holes, creating so many transitions for people at once that it can be difficult for everything to be able to handle the load and things will go downhill a bit until things are able to stabilize again and the entity is able to work through that time and hopefully come out better by the end of it. Lack of stability always creates problems, everyone has their own ideas about how things should be run, and how things should be handled, different people at the top will filter down the lines and the customers or users will notice the difference and some will like it while others dont.
I worked at the same fast food place (A local Dairy Queen) for 5 years. I was a manager for 2 of those years, and an assistant to the managers/regular worker for the last two years. Naturally in such a business there is going to be a lot of turnover. Sometimes it was just a person here or manager there, which was something that wasnt a big deal. Sometimes several of the better workers/managers would leave at the same time, and things would get very difficult to handle for a little while. It put a lot more pressure on the management and the owner to make sure things were still running smoothly while we dealt with a much lower amount of experience across the board, and lots of new workers to bring up to speed. People can come to rely on certain workers/managers to take care of things and never think about it until they are suddenly gone, and then realize just how much those people did to keep the place running smoothly.
The problem with volunteer positions and such, is, at the end of the day, if the people volunteering decide that the time and effort they are putting in is no longer worth it, they will quit. Lately what we have seen is that a ton of long-time great knowledgeable people have left for various reasons, and many have left because of burnout. The more that leave, the more pressure it puts on the other older mods, and the more it inevitably pushes towards burnout. The issues going on, also can scare away some very capable individuals who may want to help but decide from the outside looking in, that it wouldnt be worth it due to all of the issues. Because of all the turnover, and the issues that keep coming up, the userbase isnt given a feeling of stability that they want to be able to feel so they can simply sit back and enjoy the site like they would like to do. They keep running into new changes, into new mods handling things in different ways, and the combination can create situations like we've seen where the inexperience can lead to minor missteps which can turn into much larger issues. When issues stack on top of issues, stack on top of more issues, it creates an environment where the people that are supposed to be dealing with the older issues, are no longer on staff and things can fall by the wayside, or change in how they are being handled because the people in charge of handling them are changing. The lack of consistency inevitably drives the userbase crazy, or at least the ones that may look at the site as a whole and thus see all of the issues compounding upon eachother and wonder what the heck is going on.
I dont blame the users, I dont blame the mods, I blame the situation that was caused by a few missteps, by people leaving, and by new people being thrown into a position they might not be fully prepared for without a transition period that the current situation with the site may not properly allow. The users become jaded, the mods become jaded, and we end up with both sides, instead of working together, taking sides against eachother because of each sides perceived lack of respect, trust, and otherwise from the other.
With all of the insanity that is going on in the real world these days, people want to come here to relax and enjoy talking about magic, or whatever else they may want to talk about depending upon the area of the forums they frequent. The mods simply want to be able to do their job and not worry about a dramabomb going off every few days that takes away from their ability to do their job and to be able to enjoy parts of the site that they like themselves. I havent become a mod, even after being offered a position, because I know that my current schedule with my business/family/otherwise wouldnt allow me to spend the proper amount of time the position deserves. Lately with all of this stuff hitting the fan, Ive felt the need to spend time here I really dont even have, to try to help everyone come together to deal with these situations and help come to resolutions, I simply dont want to see the site in a position like its been more recently and want to do anything I can to help to deal with it, in the capacity I have at least, as a normal user, with sympathy and understanding for people on both sides of the discussion/issues/etc.
Im hopeful that with recent progress that has been made in at least one of the threads that we can begin to move forward in a way that will help bring stability to the site and create a time of peace and enjoyment here for everyone. Its still going to take a good amount of time and effort by the mods and userbase, but Im still very hopeful that we will get there.
I'd say there is a vicious circle, yes. As staff makes mistakes, the backlash is so negative, so overwhelming, that it's difficult to pull together, face it, and try to take the good with the bad. And as the CI "drama" continues, staff burnout happens, even among those not directly targeted (emphasis this), and as a result there will be more bad decisions, more apathy, more burnout, and more resignations, and it will suck.
By all means, mods make mistakes! Absolutely! But work with the staff, don't go overboard and use loaded language or demand mods' heads, that's just going to cause immense frustration and nothing else, treat people with respect, and trust me, things will work out. But it does not hinge on the staff alone. To not have everything we love around here go down the drain, the regular users need to not burn the mods out, which is what is happening right this instant.
I bet that you all wish the best for this place - I mean, that's why many of you are so upset. But trust me on this, the best way to get things back the way it should be is to seriously cool down.
How can you, with a straight face, ask everyone to stop being so negative and stop sniping when in the same post you tell anyone who thinks Arcadiac should have been demodded to shove it?
Further more, how can you ask for people to work together, then state that anyone who disagrees with you you can't work with?
scumbag
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I notice also how his entire post is a long string of pot shots at other people. Seems like a long, hard look in the mirror is in order. Tensions are running high again around here, and there is absolutely nothing in the post you quoted that does anything to calm them, and in fact is basically does exactly the opposite. Ouch.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
How can you, with a straight face, mix up my points when I went to an effort to seperate those points? I specifically said those who have nothing nice/productive to say, shove it. It means no more of these knives in the dark, but to work together. Nice and productive are not kin with each other, so I realize you can only be so polite when erring a grievence, but I love how you failed to answer a point that was to you: What exactly were you hoping to acomplish with that statement? As in, you are free to pm Arcadic, or even bring it to an admin (like I am sure some of you did).
And of course, you respond with the exact kind of post that is doing nothing but stirring the pot. If anything could be taken as a pot shot, it would be my comment to the leaker of this information, who if you are taking offense to, you probably have a larger issue that what is currently going on.
The posts I found were nothing more than the last page of a few ongonig threads, I wasn't cherry picking posts, and I am sure I would find many other users posting in a way very akin to the posts I picked out if I continued to go looking.
Also, sarcasm may seem funny to you, but it makes it very difficult to take you seriously when all I am trying to do is make a point. However, based on your avatar, and attitude in this thread, I have accepted there is no point, however legitimate, I could make to sway you. You clearly believe the behavior existed by the unknown leaker, and those of you who received the information and refused to tell the staff is acceptable. I (and I think I can safetly say most of the staff), believe it is unacceptable. So, we have ourselves a stand-off.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
So instead of explaining why you feel it's okay to tell users who aren't being nice and kind to one another to shove it, you deflect and claim that I'm the one has who has a problem because I asked Arcadiac to resign?
Your condescending tone in the face of legit complaints is bothering to say the least. All I see you doing is taking more pot shots at users who you have deemed as "pot stirrers" (paraphrasing) and deflecting your own problems onto Ein and I by attacking Ein's avatar and still pushing the point that you're offended when Mastergee and I asked Arcadiac to resign.
For someone who claims to want things to move along, you certainly aren't trying very hard.
scumbag
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Your original point was that I said those asking for Arcadic's resignation, should shove it. I showed you I instead said this. There is a world of difference between the two. And yes, if you aren't being productive, or trying to be civil, you should shove it. Would this even be an issue if I had instead said: Please reconsider posting? I mean the exact same thing.
Condescending? Condescending? Is this some kind of bad joke? Do you not understand that posts like Ein's last one do nothing? The hardest part of the job is to try and respond as neutral as possible. I have been watching this thread for a while, and all I tried to do with my last point is highlight why I, the mods, and I am willing to bet some of the users feel like we aren't going anywhere, feelings are hurt, and why we seem to be losing so many moderators
I am trying as hard as I can, while trying to be as polite/direct as my position will allow me to be, without being jumped on. I am a very blunt person (as you might have noticed in our few discussions).
Harkius/Bele, thank you for the advice. After my student teaching, I will try this again, starting with many of Az's good points.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Telling anyone to shove it, regardless of situation, is grossly inappropriate. Especially if there's going to be a civil discourse about a difficult situation. It doesn't matter what one person said, or how difficult anyone is being.
Yes please reconsider posting isn't charged language that makes users feel scared to post. You, as a moderator, should not be using charged language such as telling users to "shove it".
ein's last post does quite a bit, it shows that you, as a moderator, are just taking pot shots at users and not being neutral, despite what you should be doing as a moderator of MTGS.
As far as this "world of difference of which you speak" you said this: "There is far too much of these potshots being taken at each others expense, and some of these aren't even against the moderators. But here our a list of points I wanted to make about this whole situation. " in the original post. This was obviously targetted and Mastergee, Brandon, Xyre, and myself as the above quotes had shown. You have an obvious implication that we're just being negative for the sake of being negative and not helping discussion, and then you later go and say "No one is going to argue or talk things out logically if every other post is a snipe, troll or flame. All that's going to happen is that we are all going to circle jerk for God knows long. So if you don't have something nice/productive to say, shove it." Now in this previous quote you've shown that anyone sniping, trolling or flaming, which you implicitly through subtext accused the users you quoted of doing, to shove it.
It's hidden in layers of double speak and subtext, but it's there and I'm very offended that a moderator of MTGS told myself, a former mod, and other users to shove it in such a public manner.
I realize that you're trying to remain neutral, just please stop using charged language and try a little harder to not be so abrasive as you are a moderator and should be held to a higher standard.
edit: also nathed a little by epee.
scumbag
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As in the idea of shutting up/keeping it to yourself, or are you actually arguing on my word choice?
It matters in the sense of do we want to spend weeks or months on trudging through this situation? I assume for most, it would be the former.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Both, but mainly the latter. You tell people to not take postshots and use charged language while doing both. While maybe not intentionally, it comes across as hypocritical.
I also want to point out that I think that kpaca and Kijin's bans should both come under heavy consideration if not outright change to suspensions, and I'd ask anyone to find a place where I acted in a heated or contentious manner.
EDIT: read this before the currently banned users post. I see that it has, and I can understand and respect the actions taken, although I may disagree in part.
Fine.
I am sorry if anyone was hurt by the use of the phrase 'shove it'. I figured no one would think twice about that, and realize the big picture of what I meant, but clearly, it wasn't interpreted that way.
If you read the Currently Banned thread, EP said both would have been suspended, had they not already been on probation (as I hinted on my 'thinnest of ice' analogy).
The GJ way path to no lynching:
TCM: Take a step back please. You've said your piece. Edit: Thank you for the apology. As moderators, we need to consider that our words, no matter how we intend them, come from a position of authority and that colors what we say.
Everybody else: You've made your point. Please stop. Further clamoring is not productive.
We're letting his essential point, that we're letting our anger get in the way of real discussion, get clouded by... surprise, our anger! Discussing what TCM said, the tone of his post, etc., is really not appropriate for this thread.
I've been really, really encouraged by our progress in working together in a respectful manner as a community in the WCT discussion thread, and I would ask that we try and move in that direction here.
Thanks.
How you figure that I wasn't *also* trying to make a point, and instead using sarcasm is beyond me? I even suggested a plausible course of action based on what I saw in the post he quoted! That that course of action was taken as an affront (I assume?) is not on my shoulders. I cannot control how others will respond to the posts I've made, or whether they will take offense for something that wasn't offensive (or, certainly, vice versa!). It is up to each individual to decide how they are going to read them.
I get you're concerned that people not pile onto acradic for the vitriol in the post he was carded for, but the real question is, why not go to each of them personally (via PM for instance, rather than posting here), tell them why that post was unacceptable, and coach them on how to make it, for lack of a better term, more palatable? Directives from mods carry weight, do they not?
For example, you can say this:
"I know you're frustrated at acradic's behavior, but what you've posted is unacceptable language. Why not instead try something like ___________ (<--this is where you get to practice your coaching) if you feel the need to express your opinion on this matter?"
Then you could point them to the staff code of conduct and the section on staff image,
and suggest that rather than making vague complaints they could read up on how staff are supposed to conduct themselves and instead make a well reasoned and impassioned, but acceptable post language-wise, that explains how they believe arcadic is seemingly not living up to a pledge he signed and how they feel this undermines the type of community these forums are attempting to create.
This was just an example, but rather than assuming an avatar tells you someone's response, maybe you could try and actually have a conversation with them and see! Telling someone they can't fish the way they're fishing is infinitely less productive than taking the time to teach them to fish the correct way!
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
The issue with that happening here (besides it being a much more important issue) is that the bannings are between the banned members and the mods at this point, we (users) won't have much input at this point other than saying "yeah, they deserve to be gone" or "these mods are autocrats."
This thread has sort of served its purpose at this point.
Possible move to close?
Honestly that may be better suited to happen in the Chamber than here.
Not going to close this down just yet, but we'll see.
I'm about to be in class for the next three hours, so I'll see if there's anything to be done upon return.
The fact is that Gutter members are being considered "scumbags" by a no small part of the staff is rather unsettling, to say the very least.
To put things into perspective, you'd have to take into account that the Gutter has just found out that we have been lied to since the whole time, and that the plan to shutdown the gutter (see the CI thread) is intimately linked to the sale to Curse. Since these 2.5 months, there has been a so-called compromise thread where the alternatives to closing down the Gutter have been discussed for 1115 (and counting!) posts. The negotiation process was... strange... to say the least. Issues would be discussed, and generally the Gutter would come with a compromise, and all of a sudden something else would be thrown on the table every time a compromise would be close to be reached.
This can be seen as a classic case of stalling now that we learned that we have been lied all this time. As the saying goes, confidence is like virginity: you can only lose it once.
Now as per the leaks, and taking into account that our community has slowly but steadily lost faith in the sincerity of the upper staff, you enter one further equation in this distrust on the word of the staff.
The anonymous leakers on the staff, as well as the persons who spilled the beams in the Gutter are being treated to niceties like being called "The scum of the Earth" et al. but has it been considered for a single second that their actions might not have been motivated by selfishness, but rather the contrary?
- Maybe some staff members silently disagreed with these "smoke and mirrors" tactics and thought that the community that was being shutdown deserved to know the truth about what was happening?
- Maybe N_S and then the recently banned members thought that people in the community deserved a little token of respect, and to be prepared to what was coming forward?
While the closure was legitimate from a practical point of view (privately owned forum, no first amendment, yadda yadda) maybe the fact that this was a huge blow to a strong community could have been handled better? Maybe you could have explained that while this was a huge blow to a small subset of the community, there where a lot of benefits for the userbase at large, that you were sympathetic to our plight, but that the needs of the forums at large superseeded our own needs? That you could assist us in moving our subforum history somewhere else? maybe providing us with the sql dumps of all the gutter posts if we wished to host them elsewhere and keep our community alive?
I know, crazy ideas.
I mean (in more blunt terms), we were keeping the staff's dirty secret, why did the staff feel the need to kick us in the nuts at every juncture?
And yet, the Gutter showed you guys much more respect that you deserved. At anytime N_S or everyone could have posted in the rumor mill about the sale, or in the open, and they didn't. They didn't even when they kept being kicked in the balls on a daily basis for the last month. N_S was banned, yet it seems he never took the care to come back under a gimmick and spill the beams in here or somewhere else...
The gutter members, even the banned ones, showed much more restraint and honesty than the staff itself. This could be something to consider everytime you guys flame the members of a community that did nothing else that defend themselves from attacks.
The Guttermods were not staff members. they didn't abide by the Staff CoC. Their responsibilities were to take care and protect their community: the Gutter. This is what they did when they informed their userbase they had been lied to all this time. The accusations of selfishness are therefore invalid as it was out of deep care for their userbase that they did what they did.
------------
As for the recent bannings and banning revisions, they reek of kangaroo courts yet again. The suspended/banned thread states that kijin and kpaca were banned because they where already under probation.
Why were they on probation? For voting in a poll/thanking a post while suspended (for some bogus reasons).
We kept being spit in the face for 2.5months and this is the end result. But I'll be damned if I think we can take the blame for this. There is only so much that the "battered wife" syndrome can help us in beautifying reality.
------------
As a closing comment, I am not even taking the time to comment Arcadic's behavior, because it is despicable enough to speak for itself, but I cannot resist in quoting some older lecturing that The Cold Monarch was addressing to some Gutter members in the fake negotiations thread:
I know people feel lied to, but the ownership of the site isn't really a public issue. It's between the owner and the future owner - we were made privy to this information because Hannes/Admins wanted feedback and saw that a sale mattered a lot to how we run the day to day back in July. And, there is clearly nothing I can say to change your mind, but the current development with the Gutter and its future location/status was not something we really had enough information to go on until very recently. We've tried to teeter our desire to fix things with the requirement to keep our mouths shut about a business transaction.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Before I heard about this whole issue, I had no idea what "probation" was beyond the immediate context of the episode itself. It took me fifteen minutes of searching the forum to even piece together a working definition of probation (from here and here), and that seems like a poor way of managing the issue.
I think the Forum Rules need either a subsection or link to a separate post on the issue of ban appeals, probation, and how members affected by each will be treated by the staff/affected by future infractions, separate from the current "X infractions = suspension of Y weeks" part.
Because to an outsider like me, the easiest conclusion to draw, right or not, is that probation is managed on a case-by-case, as-we-feel-like-it standard, which does not reflect well on your leadership.
Anyway - I think this would be a small thing that would make everyone happier.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Probations were designed as a tool to ensure that users returning from bans would be rules-conscious members of the community. Their original announcement and terms can be found here.
kpaca and Kijin were a unique situation though. Both had two counts of evasion (the same two counts) in the area of the site that they had powers over: once for evading the penalty box via gimmick when it was in effect, and once for using a gimmick to vote in a poll while suspended. These were each auto-ban offenses, but each was the first of its kind, and the staff wasn't comfortable banning for the second which was on the innocuous side, and an argument was made for the first that the rules were unclear. Both were highly contentious issues and neither left anyone on staff feeling particularly good walking away. We had two users who were evading site privileges repeatedly and scraping by without real repercussions. This felt unfair to our other users and very problematic to the site in general (curbing gimmick evasion is a massive time sink for the staff, and one that we can't afford to take a light stance on). Finally, the staff said that enough was enough: we'd implement probations on these two users paired with a ban from all gimmick usage due to their repeated problems with them.
Probations are the stock answer for returning banned users, and have never been used elsewhere other than the specific extreme situation described above.
I don't mind creating an addendum to the rules for this, but I feel the gains would be marginal at best.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
This is fair. I think having it directly available to banned users in the Ban/Suspension appeal forum is also an oversight that needs fixing.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules