If they had closed the Gutter without a thread, there would have been a thread saying they were corrupt Gestapo Ivory Tower Nazi Communists that were just out to get the Gutter ban all current admins now.
You are, of course, right about this (and look, people are still acting that way even though there is a thread!) But if the decision is firm, I guess I just don't see the point in continuing to argue over it. It's like this thread is saying "We're closing it down and there's nothing you can do about it but we're still willing to listen to your concerns and solutions even though in the end it won't matter".
But I tend to believe, as I hope others do, that this is what it takes to be a good moderator. In fact, making a decision like this without considering the other side of the argument, is very un-moderator like.
I tend to believe it's both good and bad. It's good for the staff to be willing to listen to the concerns of everyone who is/will be affected by the decision, but at the same time, it looks bad for them to keep saying "this forum is bad for the community, causes a lot of unnecessary drama and harbors a lot of members who talk about people and dislike the staff so we're getting rid of it" and then turn around after a handfull of people throw a fit and say "ok, we give up, you win" just to avoid drama.
And I love how people are throwing the term "vocal minority" around like its some kind of insult. I would much rather be a "vocal minority" than a "silent majority."
I wouldn't say it's an insult, but it is the truth. There are thousands of users on this site and we have maybe ten or fifteen people here who are passionately, loudly defending the Gutter, and a few of those people aren't even Gutter members, they're just defending it because they feel the staff is in the wrong or whatever reason they may have. There are people here who are acting like the Gutter is an integral part of the site, that it's very important to the community as a whole, etc; and to you guys, it may be, but to the vast majority of the site, it isn't (90% of the members here probably don't even know it exists). So I wouldn't say being called the vocal minority is an insult, it's just a fact.
Quote from Belgareth »
Isn't that actually exactly what the staff are doing.
They are treating you like the rest of the forums and expecting you to follow same rules as rest of forums ?
If the Gutter feels so strongly about it staying, how about they start up their own forum/blog/w-e and be done with it?
@tordek:
Time management is one of those key skills in leadership. If he knew he had commitments to take care of he should have timed the posting of this thread better.
Does it really matter? He has commitments. Whether they overlap with this drama-bomb doesn't really matter. The fact is is that it's been said. Some people do have lives, emergencies, etc... and for you to say it's a leadership issue is beyond comprehension. Like was stated previously, not everyone sits around on a forum waiting for the next thread post to hit.
So a group whom has insulted members of the site has their hangout shutdown, and is now trying to rally support from the same members they insulted?
I don't care if the staff is corrupt (I basically post in the legacy forums..all good there), all I know is that is bar none, the most cowardly, insincere cry for help I have seen, I hate sycophants and I hate liars, the impression I get from it's members is less of a safety valve for MTGS and more of glorified /b/, hey get this, you know what, it's hypocritical to insult members/admin then act like the victim and cry for help.
You are, of course, right about this (and look, people are still acting that way even though there is a thread!) But if the decision is firm, I guess I just don't see the point in continuing to argue over it. It's like this thread is saying "We're closing it down and there's nothing you can do about it but we're still willing to listen to your concerns and solutions even though in the end it won't matter".
This is not true. If they were to shut down Water Cooler Talk, or say, ban you, without ample reasoning then there should be a great deal of argument whether or not the staff will change their mind. As I've said, there is always the option of leaving this site, and the staff hopefully don't want that to happen en mass.
Its so nice to see how people that more then likely didnt read 50% of this thread are now starting to chime in. Sadly its reached the point where people are not gonna bother to play catch up and basicly start tossing in there 2 cents with no clue on anything.
Its so nice to see how people that more then likely didnt read 50% of this thread are now starting to chime in. Sadly its reached the point where people are not gonna bother to play catch up and basicly start tossing in there 2 cents with no clue on anything.
So a group whom has insulted members of the site has their hangout shutdown, and is now trying to rally support from the same members they insulted?
I don't care if the staff is corrupt (I basically post in the legacy forums..all good there), all I know is that is bar none, the most cowardly, insincere cry for help I have seen, I hate sycophants and I hate liars, the impression I get from it's members is less of a safety valve for MTGS and more of glorified /b/, hey get this, you know what, it's hypocritical to insult members/admin then act like the victim and cry for help.
(*insert the biggest good.jph here)
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I joined the gutter when it was closed several months ago. At that time, the gutter was opened up to anyone 18+ who was curious about the veracity of the allegations being made. Those allegations revolved around the idea that gutter members were making organized attacks on the rest of the forums.
I went in there with an open mind, and did not find any evidence of organized attacks.
Not one hint.
I decided to stick around, and eventually started posting in the largest thread in MTGS history. It truly is a glorious thread, and deeply entwined with the history of MTGS itself. I've read every single post made since my joining of the gutter. And I have also watched gutter members post on the regular forms. In all that time, and in all of those words that I have read, I haven't seen any attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members outside of the gutter. None.
I joined the gutter when it was closed several months ago. At that time, the gutter was opened up to anyone 18+ who was curious about the veracity of the allegations being made. Those allegations revolved around the idea that gutter members were making organized attacks on the rest of the forums.
I went in there with an open mind, and did not find any evidence of organized attacks.
Not one hint.
I decided to stick around, and eventually started posting in the largest thread in MTGS history. It truly is a glorious thread, and deeply entwined with the history of MTGS itself. I've read every single post made since my joining of the gutter. And I have also watched gutter members post on the regular forms. In all that time, and in all of those words that I have read, I haven't seen any attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members outside of the gutter. None.
And to add to this, in my short time in the gutter I was simply flammed and banned. When I posted in this thread sticking up for them, I did so not with personal bias, but on the facts of what I saw... Which should be the deciding factor and not it's perceived image of a flame happy hate tower. Which it isn't.
And the fact a gutter member PM'd me to say thank you for not taking my ban personally spoke volumes to me. Sure they may be obnoxious, but from my short interaction with them it seems to me their only fault is wearing their heart on their sleeves, so it's natural for a person so passionate to be pissed when their home is about to be burned to the ground.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Now please apply this line of thought to your perception of the Gutter staff's willingness to discuss changes to the Gutter. Perhaps it was biased because of the fact that you "suggested" two of them to resign from Staff and alienated the other one out of the Called?
Isn't that actually exactly what the staff are doing.
They are treating you like the rest of the forums and expecting you to follow same rules as rest of forums ?
No. They are closing our forum instead of implementing rules improvements. I don't see them shutting down artwork because of counterfeiting. There's a big announcement forum-wide about rules improvement.
rianalnn, you are continuing your slanderous accusations by mentioning my mod lounge posts in a twisted way, just to attack my personality. Where are your ethics? Am I the only person bothered by this?
Reason why I'm sticking up for the gutter even though I have only a very small experience with it. I saw nothing wrong. I see more questionable behavior from the staff here (besides the EDH team and a few others who do an amazing job) then there needs to be. Plus, I've only been on these boards for 2 years? And there's been like 500000 different mods and Admins everytime I turn my head. That's just proof something is wrong. Sadly, I find the good mods burnin out and stepping down and being replaced by pre-back seat mod with too much free time and feels the need to hand out infractions for an accidental double post.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
But when TFO asked what it would take to keep the forum open, rianaln said it just needed to follow same rules as NSFW.
So I guess the question is, why should a forum exist that is exempt from the rules and holds itself to it's own standards.
Artwork/debate/water cooler or any of the other forums mentioned don't get closed because they fall under the same rules as rest of site.
This is exactly the point that I am at, and I have read the whole thing (I just chose not to continue bickering about something that was not relevent to that topic at hand). I feel like it is a very simple question: Why do you feel you deserve to not be held to the same standards the thousands of us have chosen to adhere to? We agree to a set of rules when we choose to post on MTGS, most of us understand that if we cross the line we will be incurring the stated results. It sounds to me you feel that you should operate outside these rules, all the while firmly pointing out instances where Moderators have not. I think that all parties, moderators and "gutterites" alike, should follow the same rules and meet the same expectations. Allowing a privileged few who do not have to follow the same rules as everyone else breeds resentment.
I will concede that this was handled quite poorly, though from the vehemence of the gutter objections expressed here I am inclined to think that they would have reacted similarly if this action was taken over time and with courtesy. It wasn't however, and I cannot say for sure what would have happened, most notably because I do not have enough experience with the parties involved. That said, just because it was poorly handled does not mean that the decision is any less conclusive.
rianalnn, you are continuing your slanderous accusations by mentioning my mod lounge posts in a twisted way, just to attack my personality. Where are your ethics? Am I the only person bothered by this?
Well, I am sure your fellow gutterites will back support you, and rian clearly has a postion, but most of the rest of us have no first-hand experience with the situation in question, so it would be foolish for us to be bothered by it without knowing the facts.
It's almost 4:00 AM in Guatemala and I still haven't seen a global in here.
Way to go guys.
You have to understand that they are being told to stay out of it. as anything they say could make the staff look worse.
I find it funny that the admins condem the gutter as a bully site but do not condem their own staff for having "user x is an F'ing idiot" and "stupid Pm" threads in their own mod area.
when challenged on this the admin in question just ignored everything and only commented on what he wanted to.
what will happen these mods?
the response was some of them will be put on watch lol. so funny.
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I read this entire thread over the course of an hour and a half. Previous to that, I had absolutely no knowledge of the Gutter or MTGSal leadership.
I've never really seen this sort of forum drama before, so it's been an interesting read. I hadn't really thought about all the history and politics between moderators, site owners, and long-running communities.
It's been made clear that a lot of people don't care about my semi-informed opinion in the slightest, and that's fine. But based on the 1000+ posts I've read, it sounds like closing down the Gutter is a good decision. The administrators need to do what they feel is best for the site, the brand, and its many users. It sucks for the dozen or so Gutter members who are highly invested in their online community, but that doesn't mean that MtgSal is obligated to spend time, money, and press risk on them.
How was most of that thread not things being pulled up from the gutter to discredit or personally attack others? From what I remember, the whole thread was basically that.
But really, you guys seem to hate this forum, and the staff. Why not just move your little club that "isn't really a big part of the forums" (that is a paraphrase but you get what i mean) to somewhere else? It's not like, in 2012, it's hard to be a member of two different forums.
This is easily the most ill-informed post in this entire thread. You've clearly not spent enough time on these forums, so I'll say that you do a disservice to everyone in your new community when you paint with such a large, inaccurate brush. I am proudly a member of the gutter, and in recent past have been proudly a member of the staff. I do not use offensive language, nor swear, and still enjoy these forums. I DO NOT fit the caricature you're painting, and it bothers me that you would try to paint it onto everyone.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
Nor do I, and I too am a proud member of the Gutter. I also am an upstanding and long time member of this forum, and challenge anyone to find evidence to the contrary.
You have to understand that they are being told to stay out of it. as anything they say could make the staff look worse.
Damage control 101, when you get right down to it. In the end, ria makes himself a sacrificial lamb and the rest of the staff gets off largely scot-free because no one remembers them getting directly involved in the Gutter debacle.
when challenged on this the admin in question just ignored everything and only commented on what he wanted to.
I still find it interesting that ria stopped replying to me once I started suggesting he give some ground. It comes across as being wholly uninterested in budging on the decision, and only engaging in discourse as a lazy way to mollify the brunt of the complaints (the reply to my one-sentence post afterwards doesn't count for anything). You can see the same thing happen whenever a politician gets into a huge scandal: Acknowledge the issue, ignore anything impolitic, and rely on the fact that the public will forget about everything soon enough.
the response was some of them will be put on watch lol. so funny.
Put on watch by their friends and peers, I should emphasize for the casual readers of this thread. As if that means anything.
Quote from CorrodedTemplar »
So please, can someone inform me how I can sign up? I'm 25 for arguments sake.
Hm. I think I officially qualify as an entirely unbiased observer. I'm going to toss my two pennies in because this whole situation disturbs me.
I'm going to post without any opinion on the gutter one way or another, because I honestly don't have one.
The action of the closing is the real problem. Having read every post in this thread, it seems that the admins just decided to hack off an entire portion of the website without any input from the members of said portion, other staff members, or anyone else for that matter. That's a really, really dangerous precedent to be setting. Why they did it doesn't matter in the slightest. The fact that three people can simply bypass the entire community of this website and take such drastic action doesn't sit well with me, and shouldn't sit well with anyone else.
Maybe the gutter deserves to be closed, maybe it doesn't. Doesn't matter, because instead of opening it to discussion or having the community give their input on ways to make it work, the admins simply acted.
The closing of the gutter specifically isn't the issue here. It's a symptom of a much bigger problem. If three people can decide what part of this site stays and goes, it stops being a community.
This kind of action can't be left up to the admins with no input from anyone else. The gutterites had no say. MTGS as a whole had no say. What if they had decided intead of the gutter it was Water Cooler Talk, or Forum Games, or one of a dozen other parts of the site? That's what this represents: the admins being able to unilaterally close down anything on this site. That should be opposed on principal, no matter the target of those actions.
EDIT: Saw the post saying it was an admin and global decision. Apologies for missing that, but my point stands.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Put on watch by their friends and peers, I should emphasize for the casual readers of this thread. As if that means anything.
it does. it means that the admins and mods can do and say whatever they want about the members of this forum and nothing will happen to them.
it is like it has been since i have been here. staff can do what they want and nothing happens as long as you are in the click.
i have seen some good mods go bye bye because they didn't agree with the staff.
as i have pointed out. the mods and admins can bully users and nothing will happen.
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Hm. I think I officially qualify as an entirely unbiased observer. I'm going to toss my two pennies in because this whole situation disturbs me.
I'm going to post without any opinion on the gutter one way or another, because I honestly don't have one.
The action of the closing is the real problem. Having read every post in this thread, it seems that the admins just decided to hack off an entire portion of the website without any input from the members of said portion, other staff members, or anyone else for that matter. That's a really, really dangerous precedent to be setting. Why they did it doesn't matter in the slightest. The fact that three people can simply bypass the entire community of this website and take such drastic action doesn't sit well with me, and shouldn't sit well with anyone else.
Maybe the gutter deserves to be closed, maybe it doesn't. Doesn't matter, because instead of opening it to discussion or having the community give their input on ways to make it work, the admins simply acted.
The closing of the gutter specifically isn't the issue here. It's a symptom of a much bigger problem. If three people can decide what part of this site stays and goes, it stops being a community.
This kind of action can't be left up to the admins with no input from anyone else. The gutterites had no say. MTGS as a whole had no say. What if they had decided intead of the gutter it was Water Cooler Talk, or Forum Games, or one of a dozen other parts of the site? That's what this represents: the admins being able to unilaterally close down anything on this site. That should be opposed on principal, no matter the target of those actions.
This is by far the best post by an "uninformed" person ITT. It proves that you don't need to have an opinion about the Gutter to see the real issue here.
The closing of the gutter specifically isn't the issue here. It's a symptom of a much bigger problem. If three people can decide what part of this site stays and goes, it stops being a community.
Thank you for this. I find it comical that one of the arguments against the gutter is that it's such a small community when the reason it's being closed is that, like, three people decided to close it.
To everyone saying that gutter members want to be treated differently than other forums: How can you possibly reach this conclusion? The gutter is open for anybody 18+ to join, and we're only exclusive in so much as that only people that can fit in the environment end up staying... So what's wrong with booting people that don't fit in? That's more or less the same standard that the rest of the forum has- if you don't follow rules you get banned.
Sure, the rules in the gutter are different- but why should this matter? It's essentially just a humor subsection. Imagine having a humor section with censorship. It wouldn't be very funny. In fact, it would be awful. The rules are different in the gutter because it's essential for the gutter to have the positive and fun atmosphere of the gutter. Same as the rules are different in rules q&a as the rules are different in market street cafe.
Okay, Im going to go the more blunt route with this post, so bear with me.
Seriously, people need to stop bashing one another in this thread, its just pathetic and isnt going to accomplish anything positive for anyone. The more I see people (especially the gutter members) personally attacking the mods/admins/etc, rather than sticking to the topic of trying to save their portion of this site, the less sympathy I, and Im sure many others who have no side in any of this, have for those currently losing the gutter.
As best I can tell, one of the problems the gutter has, especially due to its many issues over the years, is that it does have a decidedly negative perception from those on the outside looking in, or at least from those on the outside who hear about it and what goes on in there. A big thing for those who would want to keep the gutter around, would be to try to do their best to try to help change these perceptions in a public enough way so that these perceptions could be changed to view that part of the site in a more positive light.
This also wasnt just three people deciding they didnt like something and then toasting it without further discussion, this discussion took time, thought, and included all admins and globals in the discussion, according to those involved, a consensus was reached, and the action was taken.
Some people have said that basically what happens or is said in the gutter, stays in the gutter. The problem Ive seen in my time here, is that while for the most part this is true, inevitably there are times when its not, and when that happens, there are issues, there are hurt feelings/otherwise, and it never paints the gutter in a positive light when it happens.
Inevitably, when a site is privately owned, the owner can make their own rules, and its up to the members whether they feel the website is worth sticking around at with those rules and views in place. If the owner and those put in place at the highest levels to moderate and run the site alongside him are in agreement about something like closing down the gutter, then there is little one can do against that. Those involved can always do what they can to try to persuade those who made the decisions/own the site to change their mind, and show them that its not so bad, and that it deserves to be kept around, but if that fails, then its important for those involved to inevitably respect that decision (if they choose to stick around with the gutter gone), and eithor post elsewhere in the forums (perhaps the NSFW part in the speakeasy or whichever), or get together with the other gutter members and go find another place where they can get the same experience on a site that doesnt have an issue with such things.
One truth that does exist, is that the mods/admins/owner presumably, have been working to take the site in a different direction of sorts than it has in the past. And that compared to the way the rest of the forums are handled, that the gutter is far and away the odd section out when looking at the whole. Another thing to consider, though probably a minor one in a lot of ways, is that negative perception can have unintended negative consequences to the site as a whole. This site, last I checked, is able to exist because the costs to keep it up and running are paid for by advertising, and thusly the state and perception of the site are important for advertisers to feel comfortable advertising as such on the site. While, as Ive said, the gutter doesnt likely have a huge affect on the advertising side of things specifically, one has to take any and all negatively viewed aspects of the site into consideration when looking to decide whether they want their name associated with the site as well.
I fully understand the idea of a group of individuals, especially those that feel passionately about their part of the site, being very displeased, angry, otherwise, at losing that part of the site. I recall being on a text-based-game (a mud for those of you that know about such things) which I still frequent, those less so these days because Im so busy with work and running my not-so-little card business these days. The owner/implementer of the game decided after a while (this was back in 2002), that he wanted to make some sweeping changes to the game that he felt would be for the best for the long-term health of the game. Those changes inevitably caused a massive upheaval among the playerbase and inevitably a lot of people left, but after everything was said and done, outside of the inherant damage that losing so many people caused, the effects of those changes on the game, in the long term turned out to be for the best.
Now, Im not saying that closing the gutter down would be for the best in the long term for this site and its users perse, but from the sounds of it, from the perspective of thie higher up mods/admins, the gutter didnt conform with what their future view of this site and its policies were, and additionally that it was viewed as being more of a potential pain, especially in that context, than it was worth to keep around. In the context of the game example I gave, they apparently decided that while they knew they would inevitably piss off a group of 200 people in the process of making such a change, they decided that it would be better for the future direction of the site to have it gone, that for it to stick around. That to have such an area of the site around, in direct contradiction to what their policies for the rest of the site was, would be viewed as hypocricical by those on the outside, or the rest of the users on the site in general.
Also, as an aside, to those who would attack someone on the modstaff or admins for putting their irl responsibilities (work/otherwise) ahead of stuff that goes on here. You seriously need to understand that irl is ALWAYS 100% of the time, more important than anything that goes on here. Not being able to be around one evening because of a responsibility they have to take care of irl, should not, and is not a justifiable reason to go after someone. This site is important, but not more important than our real life responsibilities outside of the site.
Now then, if the gutter members want to try to keep the gutter after all this, I highly suggest doing their best to take the high road in all this, and being the better person as it were, and focusing solely on the benefits the gutter provides both to itself and to the rest of the site, and thusly do their best to justify it being kept around. Just because its been around for ages, doesnt mean it deserves automatically to be kept around, if the direction of the site the gutter is based on doesnt mesh with the current setup of the gutter. Perhaps suggestions could be made and negotiations had to alter the gutter from its current form to deal with the issues, perceptions, otherwise, of the gutter to once again, help convince those who are making the decisions to choose to keep it around rather than getting rid of it. If you all choose/decide that attacking those that made the decision in order to try and somehow convince them from that to keep it around, then believe me, you will fail. Some patience must also be involved. Ive seen multiple posters getting all bent out of shape because certain members of the staff involved in the decision havent posted/responded to the thread. Why not give it a day or two, to give them a chance to respond rather than getting all bent out of shape because they didnt respond RIGHT NOW. Who knows, perhaps they were busy yesterday and didnt have a chance to respond. Perhaps they decided that anything they could say/add to the thread wouldnt help the conversation so they just chose to stay out of it. I think it would be great if they did come on and post something about how the decision was come to, but at the same time, Im also willing to be patient and give them a reasonable amount of time to post a response as well.
Im sorry for the overly lengthy post, and Im sorry if I came off as a little more blunt than usual, but after reading the ENTIRE thread, all 62? pages I think up to the point I posted this, its clear to me that something additionally need to be said, at least to me anyway. I have more to say, but unfortunately I have to get ready for work, so Ill likely add a bit more to this later, but for now Ill post what I have here.
Sweet, I was just going to quote everything in a spoiler tag and put up here to prove my point, but you know what, this sums everything up, DON'T PUT SUPPORT THE GUTTER IN YOUR SIGS IF YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO GIVE THEIR OPINION, your making yourself look bad, and hurting your own cause, your sounding less like freedom fighters and more like a group of entitled narrow minded 10 year olds. You don't want people giving their opinions, you want people to feed you the correct ones so you can wave it around going "LOOK THE COMMUNITY SUPPORTS US",
This is easily the most ill-informed post in this entire thread. You've clearly not spent enough time on these forums, so I'll say that you do a disservice to everyone in your new community when you paint with such a large, inaccurate brush. I am proudly a member of the gutter, and in recent past have been proudly a member of the staff. I do not use offensive language, nor swear, and still enjoy these forums. I DO NOT fit the caricature you're painting, and it bothers me that you would try to paint it onto everyone.
I have been posting on this forum longer than you have even been a member, but correct me if I'm wrong, you might have made a new account or something. Like I said, I have no problems with the Gutter itself, I am just going off the main-board presence of several Gutter members, and previous threads I have read that openly attack and jibe at members of the MTGS staff, which made me think you guys didn't enjoy the staff or want to be here. I have no personal beefs with Gutter members, apart from one or two (as I have perviously stated). I just don't understand why, when the staff have deemed it an unneccessary part of the Forums it just can't be moved off site. Is that so hard to do? I understand that you don't want to, but it's obvious it's going to happen no matter how much you protest.
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You are, of course, right about this (and look, people are still acting that way even though there is a thread!) But if the decision is firm, I guess I just don't see the point in continuing to argue over it. It's like this thread is saying "We're closing it down and there's nothing you can do about it but we're still willing to listen to your concerns and solutions even though in the end it won't matter".
I tend to believe it's both good and bad. It's good for the staff to be willing to listen to the concerns of everyone who is/will be affected by the decision, but at the same time, it looks bad for them to keep saying "this forum is bad for the community, causes a lot of unnecessary drama and harbors a lot of members who talk about people and dislike the staff so we're getting rid of it" and then turn around after a handfull of people throw a fit and say "ok, we give up, you win" just to avoid drama.
I wouldn't say it's an insult, but it is the truth. There are thousands of users on this site and we have maybe ten or fifteen people here who are passionately, loudly defending the Gutter, and a few of those people aren't even Gutter members, they're just defending it because they feel the staff is in the wrong or whatever reason they may have. There are people here who are acting like the Gutter is an integral part of the site, that it's very important to the community as a whole, etc; and to you guys, it may be, but to the vast majority of the site, it isn't (90% of the members here probably don't even know it exists). So I wouldn't say being called the vocal minority is an insult, it's just a fact.
Exactly..
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@tordek:
Does it really matter? He has commitments. Whether they overlap with this drama-bomb doesn't really matter. The fact is is that it's been said. Some people do have lives, emergencies, etc... and for you to say it's a leadership issue is beyond comprehension. Like was stated previously, not everyone sits around on a forum waiting for the next thread post to hit.
I don't care if the staff is corrupt (I basically post in the legacy forums..all good there), all I know is that is bar none, the most cowardly, insincere cry for help I have seen, I hate sycophants and I hate liars, the impression I get from it's members is less of a safety valve for MTGS and more of glorified /b/, hey get this, you know what, it's hypocritical to insult members/admin then act like the victim and cry for help.
(*insert the biggest good.jph here)
This is not true. If they were to shut down Water Cooler Talk, or say, ban you, without ample reasoning then there should be a great deal of argument whether or not the staff will change their mind. As I've said, there is always the option of leaving this site, and the staff hopefully don't want that to happen en mass.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Yep. And here's the proof
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I went in there with an open mind, and did not find any evidence of organized attacks.
Not one hint.
I decided to stick around, and eventually started posting in the largest thread in MTGS history. It truly is a glorious thread, and deeply entwined with the history of MTGS itself. I've read every single post made since my joining of the gutter. And I have also watched gutter members post on the regular forms. In all that time, and in all of those words that I have read, I haven't seen any attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members outside of the gutter. None.
And to add to this, in my short time in the gutter I was simply flammed and banned. When I posted in this thread sticking up for them, I did so not with personal bias, but on the facts of what I saw... Which should be the deciding factor and not it's perceived image of a flame happy hate tower. Which it isn't.
And the fact a gutter member PM'd me to say thank you for not taking my ban personally spoke volumes to me. Sure they may be obnoxious, but from my short interaction with them it seems to me their only fault is wearing their heart on their sleeves, so it's natural for a person so passionate to be pissed when their home is about to be burned to the ground.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Now please apply this line of thought to your perception of the Gutter staff's willingness to discuss changes to the Gutter. Perhaps it was biased because of the fact that you "suggested" two of them to resign from Staff and alienated the other one out of the Called?
No. They are closing our forum instead of implementing rules improvements. I don't see them shutting down artwork because of counterfeiting. There's a big announcement forum-wide about rules improvement.
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Way to go guys.
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Reason why I'm sticking up for the gutter even though I have only a very small experience with it. I saw nothing wrong. I see more questionable behavior from the staff here (besides the EDH team and a few others who do an amazing job) then there needs to be. Plus, I've only been on these boards for 2 years? And there's been like 500000 different mods and Admins everytime I turn my head. That's just proof something is wrong. Sadly, I find the good mods burnin out and stepping down and being replaced by pre-back seat mod with too much free time and feels the need to hand out infractions for an accidental double post.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I will concede that this was handled quite poorly, though from the vehemence of the gutter objections expressed here I am inclined to think that they would have reacted similarly if this action was taken over time and with courtesy. It wasn't however, and I cannot say for sure what would have happened, most notably because I do not have enough experience with the parties involved. That said, just because it was poorly handled does not mean that the decision is any less conclusive.
Well, I am sure your fellow gutterites will back support you, and rian clearly has a postion, but most of the rest of us have no first-hand experience with the situation in question, so it would be foolish for us to be bothered by it without knowing the facts.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
You have to understand that they are being told to stay out of it. as anything they say could make the staff look worse.
I find it funny that the admins condem the gutter as a bully site but do not condem their own staff for having "user x is an F'ing idiot" and "stupid Pm" threads in their own mod area.
when challenged on this the admin in question just ignored everything and only commented on what he wanted to.
what will happen these mods?
the response was some of them will be put on watch lol. so funny.
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Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
I've never really seen this sort of forum drama before, so it's been an interesting read. I hadn't really thought about all the history and politics between moderators, site owners, and long-running communities.
It's been made clear that a lot of people don't care about my semi-informed opinion in the slightest, and that's fine. But based on the 1000+ posts I've read, it sounds like closing down the Gutter is a good decision. The administrators need to do what they feel is best for the site, the brand, and its many users. It sucks for the dozen or so Gutter members who are highly invested in their online community, but that doesn't mean that MtgSal is obligated to spend time, money, and press risk on them.
This is easily the most ill-informed post in this entire thread. You've clearly not spent enough time on these forums, so I'll say that you do a disservice to everyone in your new community when you paint with such a large, inaccurate brush. I am proudly a member of the gutter, and in recent past have been proudly a member of the staff. I do not use offensive language, nor swear, and still enjoy these forums. I DO NOT fit the caricature you're painting, and it bothers me that you would try to paint it onto everyone.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
Damage control 101, when you get right down to it. In the end, ria makes himself a sacrificial lamb and the rest of the staff gets off largely scot-free because no one remembers them getting directly involved in the Gutter debacle.
I still find it interesting that ria stopped replying to me once I started suggesting he give some ground. It comes across as being wholly uninterested in budging on the decision, and only engaging in discourse as a lazy way to mollify the brunt of the complaints (the reply to my one-sentence post afterwards doesn't count for anything). You can see the same thing happen whenever a politician gets into a huge scandal: Acknowledge the issue, ignore anything impolitic, and rely on the fact that the public will forget about everything soon enough.
Put on watch by their friends and peers, I should emphasize for the casual readers of this thread. As if that means anything.
It's in the usergroups part of the member CP.
I'm going to post without any opinion on the gutter one way or another, because I honestly don't have one.
The action of the closing is the real problem. Having read every post in this thread, it seems that the admins just decided to hack off an entire portion of the website without any input from the members of said portion, other staff members, or anyone else for that matter. That's a really, really dangerous precedent to be setting. Why they did it doesn't matter in the slightest. The fact that three people can simply bypass the entire community of this website and take such drastic action doesn't sit well with me, and shouldn't sit well with anyone else.
Maybe the gutter deserves to be closed, maybe it doesn't. Doesn't matter, because instead of opening it to discussion or having the community give their input on ways to make it work, the admins simply acted.
The closing of the gutter specifically isn't the issue here. It's a symptom of a much bigger problem. If three people can decide what part of this site stays and goes, it stops being a community.
This kind of action can't be left up to the admins with no input from anyone else. The gutterites had no say. MTGS as a whole had no say. What if they had decided intead of the gutter it was Water Cooler Talk, or Forum Games, or one of a dozen other parts of the site? That's what this represents: the admins being able to unilaterally close down anything on this site. That should be opposed on principal, no matter the target of those actions.
EDIT: Saw the post saying it was an admin and global decision. Apologies for missing that, but my point stands.
{Magic: The RPG}
it does. it means that the admins and mods can do and say whatever they want about the members of this forum and nothing will happen to them.
it is like it has been since i have been here. staff can do what they want and nothing happens as long as you are in the click.
i have seen some good mods go bye bye because they didn't agree with the staff.
as i have pointed out. the mods and admins can bully users and nothing will happen.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
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Thank you for this. I find it comical that one of the arguments against the gutter is that it's such a small community when the reason it's being closed is that, like, three people decided to close it.
To everyone saying that gutter members want to be treated differently than other forums: How can you possibly reach this conclusion? The gutter is open for anybody 18+ to join, and we're only exclusive in so much as that only people that can fit in the environment end up staying... So what's wrong with booting people that don't fit in? That's more or less the same standard that the rest of the forum has- if you don't follow rules you get banned.
Sure, the rules in the gutter are different- but why should this matter? It's essentially just a humor subsection. Imagine having a humor section with censorship. It wouldn't be very funny. In fact, it would be awful. The rules are different in the gutter because it's essential for the gutter to have the positive and fun atmosphere of the gutter. Same as the rules are different in rules q&a as the rules are different in market street cafe.
Seriously, people need to stop bashing one another in this thread, its just pathetic and isnt going to accomplish anything positive for anyone. The more I see people (especially the gutter members) personally attacking the mods/admins/etc, rather than sticking to the topic of trying to save their portion of this site, the less sympathy I, and Im sure many others who have no side in any of this, have for those currently losing the gutter.
As best I can tell, one of the problems the gutter has, especially due to its many issues over the years, is that it does have a decidedly negative perception from those on the outside looking in, or at least from those on the outside who hear about it and what goes on in there. A big thing for those who would want to keep the gutter around, would be to try to do their best to try to help change these perceptions in a public enough way so that these perceptions could be changed to view that part of the site in a more positive light.
This also wasnt just three people deciding they didnt like something and then toasting it without further discussion, this discussion took time, thought, and included all admins and globals in the discussion, according to those involved, a consensus was reached, and the action was taken.
Some people have said that basically what happens or is said in the gutter, stays in the gutter. The problem Ive seen in my time here, is that while for the most part this is true, inevitably there are times when its not, and when that happens, there are issues, there are hurt feelings/otherwise, and it never paints the gutter in a positive light when it happens.
Inevitably, when a site is privately owned, the owner can make their own rules, and its up to the members whether they feel the website is worth sticking around at with those rules and views in place. If the owner and those put in place at the highest levels to moderate and run the site alongside him are in agreement about something like closing down the gutter, then there is little one can do against that. Those involved can always do what they can to try to persuade those who made the decisions/own the site to change their mind, and show them that its not so bad, and that it deserves to be kept around, but if that fails, then its important for those involved to inevitably respect that decision (if they choose to stick around with the gutter gone), and eithor post elsewhere in the forums (perhaps the NSFW part in the speakeasy or whichever), or get together with the other gutter members and go find another place where they can get the same experience on a site that doesnt have an issue with such things.
One truth that does exist, is that the mods/admins/owner presumably, have been working to take the site in a different direction of sorts than it has in the past. And that compared to the way the rest of the forums are handled, that the gutter is far and away the odd section out when looking at the whole. Another thing to consider, though probably a minor one in a lot of ways, is that negative perception can have unintended negative consequences to the site as a whole. This site, last I checked, is able to exist because the costs to keep it up and running are paid for by advertising, and thusly the state and perception of the site are important for advertisers to feel comfortable advertising as such on the site. While, as Ive said, the gutter doesnt likely have a huge affect on the advertising side of things specifically, one has to take any and all negatively viewed aspects of the site into consideration when looking to decide whether they want their name associated with the site as well.
I fully understand the idea of a group of individuals, especially those that feel passionately about their part of the site, being very displeased, angry, otherwise, at losing that part of the site. I recall being on a text-based-game (a mud for those of you that know about such things) which I still frequent, those less so these days because Im so busy with work and running my not-so-little card business these days. The owner/implementer of the game decided after a while (this was back in 2002), that he wanted to make some sweeping changes to the game that he felt would be for the best for the long-term health of the game. Those changes inevitably caused a massive upheaval among the playerbase and inevitably a lot of people left, but after everything was said and done, outside of the inherant damage that losing so many people caused, the effects of those changes on the game, in the long term turned out to be for the best.
Now, Im not saying that closing the gutter down would be for the best in the long term for this site and its users perse, but from the sounds of it, from the perspective of thie higher up mods/admins, the gutter didnt conform with what their future view of this site and its policies were, and additionally that it was viewed as being more of a potential pain, especially in that context, than it was worth to keep around. In the context of the game example I gave, they apparently decided that while they knew they would inevitably piss off a group of 200 people in the process of making such a change, they decided that it would be better for the future direction of the site to have it gone, that for it to stick around. That to have such an area of the site around, in direct contradiction to what their policies for the rest of the site was, would be viewed as hypocricical by those on the outside, or the rest of the users on the site in general.
Also, as an aside, to those who would attack someone on the modstaff or admins for putting their irl responsibilities (work/otherwise) ahead of stuff that goes on here. You seriously need to understand that irl is ALWAYS 100% of the time, more important than anything that goes on here. Not being able to be around one evening because of a responsibility they have to take care of irl, should not, and is not a justifiable reason to go after someone. This site is important, but not more important than our real life responsibilities outside of the site.
Now then, if the gutter members want to try to keep the gutter after all this, I highly suggest doing their best to take the high road in all this, and being the better person as it were, and focusing solely on the benefits the gutter provides both to itself and to the rest of the site, and thusly do their best to justify it being kept around. Just because its been around for ages, doesnt mean it deserves automatically to be kept around, if the direction of the site the gutter is based on doesnt mesh with the current setup of the gutter. Perhaps suggestions could be made and negotiations had to alter the gutter from its current form to deal with the issues, perceptions, otherwise, of the gutter to once again, help convince those who are making the decisions to choose to keep it around rather than getting rid of it. If you all choose/decide that attacking those that made the decision in order to try and somehow convince them from that to keep it around, then believe me, you will fail. Some patience must also be involved. Ive seen multiple posters getting all bent out of shape because certain members of the staff involved in the decision havent posted/responded to the thread. Why not give it a day or two, to give them a chance to respond rather than getting all bent out of shape because they didnt respond RIGHT NOW. Who knows, perhaps they were busy yesterday and didnt have a chance to respond. Perhaps they decided that anything they could say/add to the thread wouldnt help the conversation so they just chose to stay out of it. I think it would be great if they did come on and post something about how the decision was come to, but at the same time, Im also willing to be patient and give them a reasonable amount of time to post a response as well.
Im sorry for the overly lengthy post, and Im sorry if I came off as a little more blunt than usual, but after reading the ENTIRE thread, all 62? pages I think up to the point I posted this, its clear to me that something additionally need to be said, at least to me anyway. I have more to say, but unfortunately I have to get ready for work, so Ill likely add a bit more to this later, but for now Ill post what I have here.
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Sweet, I was just going to quote everything in a spoiler tag and put up here to prove my point, but you know what, this sums everything up, DON'T PUT SUPPORT THE GUTTER IN YOUR SIGS IF YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO GIVE THEIR OPINION, your making yourself look bad, and hurting your own cause, your sounding less like freedom fighters and more like a group of entitled narrow minded 10 year olds. You don't want people giving their opinions, you want people to feed you the correct ones so you can wave it around going "LOOK THE COMMUNITY SUPPORTS US",
I have been posting on this forum longer than you have even been a member, but correct me if I'm wrong, you might have made a new account or something. Like I said, I have no problems with the Gutter itself, I am just going off the main-board presence of several Gutter members, and previous threads I have read that openly attack and jibe at members of the MTGS staff, which made me think you guys didn't enjoy the staff or want to be here. I have no personal beefs with Gutter members, apart from one or two (as I have perviously stated). I just don't understand why, when the staff have deemed it an unneccessary part of the Forums it just can't be moved off site. Is that so hard to do? I understand that you don't want to, but it's obvious it's going to happen no matter how much you protest.