I don't even care about this whole thing but you do understand the Gutter isn't self-contained? You can't make the argument that "if you don't like it don't join" when Gutter members do nothing but air their grievances and whine on the main boards now.
This is just so, very, very wrong. Most members have only ever heard of the gutter because of CI threads that pop up because the gutter is being unfairly closed down. This is hardly the gutter failing to contain itself. Personally I don't care about what happens on the rest of salvation so long as the gutter is here. For the most part I check the gutter and spoilers, with occasional posts in other places, but it's not as if I'm flaming people on the main boards.
Sure, there are some members who do, but they would do this with or without the gutter. Madding in particular has been suspended multiple times and that's exactly what happens when gutter members treat the rest of salvation like the gutter- THEY GET SUSPENDED OR BANNED!
I would bet dollars to donuts that most flaming warnings on sally come from non-gutter members. Sure, it's true that there are fewer of us than of others, but the thing is we know the score. This year the gutter has been incredibly tame because we know we're on thin ice and I see no reason why this behavior wouldn't have continued indefinitely but then the staff came and kicked down our door and things got unpleasant.
We know the boundaries and if we cross a line we get punished, and we had this happy little balance until we were up and told to **** off.
This is just so, very, very wrong. Most members have only ever heard of the gutter because of CI threads that pop up because the gutter is being unfairly closed down. This is hardly the gutter failing to contain itself. Personally I don't care about what happens on the rest of salvation so long as the gutter is here. For the most part I check the gutter and spoilers, with occasional posts in other places, but it's not as if I'm flaming people on the main boards.
Sure, there are some members who do, but they would do this with or without the gutter. Madding in particular has been suspended multiple times and that's exactly what happens when gutter members treat the rest of salvation like the gutter- THEY GET SUSPENDED OR BANNED!
I would bet dollars to donuts that most flaming warnings on sally come from non-gutter members. Sure, it's true that there are fewer of us than of others, but the thing is we know the score. This year the gutter has been incredibly tame because we know we're on thin ice and I see no reason why this behavior wouldn't have continued indefinitely but then the staff came and kicked down our door and things got unpleasant.
We know the boundaries and if we cross a line we get punished, and we had this happy little balance until we were up and told to **** off.
So that whole Kijin thing had absolutely nothing to do with **** from the gutter being dragged onto the main boards? That's what I got from it.
But, like I said, I really don't care. I'm not going to get into an argument, I find this all pretty hilarious and boring.
How is this thread still alive? Little progress has been made and the Gutter is still being closed. Is there a point to discussing the matter further in CI? I could see this continuing on a help desk or via PM's but this thread has gotten all the attention its likely to get from the forum at large. More people are looking at M13 threads in the Rumor Mill than in this thread and that says a great deal about its overall relevance. People yelled about mods not being here to answer their questions but naturally they were busy...you know...moderating their assigned forums. I have to say thank you to any mods or admins who have taken time out of their duties to come here and try to get their point across. If I were in leadership I wouldn't have put up with the level of rudeness, sarcasm, and self-servingness displayed here today. Infractions and warning would have been handed out and I would have selected the more reasonable parties to participate in a private discussion of this very topic. But luckily I'm not in leadership so the fun continues.
Today I saw names I haven't seen on the forums in years and I wish it were for positive reasons.
That was not a gutter issue. That was an internal staffing issue. It's true that some of Kijin's friends defended him. However, he also recieved flak from gutter members for how he acted.
So that whole Kijin thing had absolutely nothing to do with **** from the gutter being dragged onto the main boards? That's what I got from it.
I don't see what that had to do with the gutter. My understanding was something happened in RLA that kijin took issue with and that was kijin's deal. Didn't really have anything to do with the gutter.
I don't see what that had to do with the gutter. My understanding was something happened in RLA that kijin took issue with and that was kijin's deal. Didn't really have anything to do with the gutter.
How was most of that thread not things being pulled up from the gutter to discredit or personally attack others? From what I remember, the whole thread was basically that.
But really, you guys seem to hate this forum, and the staff. Why not just move your little club that "isn't really a big part of the forums" (that is a paraphrase but you get what i mean) to somewhere else? It's not like, in 2012, it's hard to be a member of two different forums.
How is this thread still alive? Little progress has been made and the Gutter is still being closed. Is there a point to discussing the matter further in CI? I could see this continuing on a help desk or via PM's but this thread has gotten all the attention its likely to get from the forum at large. More people are looking at M13 threads in the Rumor Mill than in this thread and that says a great deal about its overall relevance.
This post is neither constructive nor well thought out. For starters, the rumor mill tends to get an insane amount of traffic. Often times I've had a page or multiple pages of comments fill into a thread while trying to make a post in the rumor mill, so I have no idea what you're driving at with that comparison.
This thread has been doing anything but dying down. If you've actually been watching the thread it has indeed been evolving and a lot of different perspectives are emerging. Is it falling on deaf ears? Perhaps, but many would like to think/hope not.
People yelled about mods not being here to answer their questions but naturally they were busy...you know...moderating their assigned forums. I have to say thank you to any mods or admins who have taken time out of their duties to come here and try to get their point across. If I were in leadership I wouldn't have put up with the level of rudeness, sarcasm, and self-servingness displayed here today.
And has already been said, it is completely unfair to treat this thread as an isolated incident. It is the sum of many things. Yes, some things were posted that should not have been and punishments have been issued. This has nothing to do with the merits of this thread. There are still plenty of people having level-headed discussion.
Infractions and warning would have been handed out and I would have selected the more reasonable parties to participate in a private discussion of this very topic. But luckily I'm not in leadership so the fun continues.
Frankly there are too many people involved for that to be a reasonable outcome.
If you don't care for this thread then why post in it?
That's what I wonder. I mean, what exactly is the purpose of this thread? If the Gutter is being shut down, what's the point in letting Gutter members and anti-Gutter members complain and argue and sling insults for 60 pages? If you've really made up your minds to shut it down, then nothing anyone says here is going to make a difference, so why give Gutter members a false sense of hope that they're somehow going to be able to sway your opinions (like last time)?
And if you are planning on letting them sway your opinions on the matter (again), that just makes the staff here look weak and wishy-washy, and makes it seem as if they will fold to the shouting and threats of a very vocal minority.
So what is it? If you've decided to shut it down, then you should stick to your decision and probably close this thread. All it's doing now is adding more fuel to the fire and driving a wedge between the community.
But really, you guys seem to hate this forum, and the staff. Why not just move your little club that "isn't really a big part of the forums" (that is a paraphrase but you get what i mean) to somewhere else? It's not like, in 2012, it's hard to be a member of two different forums.
I don't hate the staff. Before a lot of this odd interwebz drama I always liked ria. And we are not a little club, but yes we are a part of the forum and that is why we speak our minds when things happen. We deserve to be treated like the rest of the forums. I do not get what you mean, because frankly, unlike ria, I never liked anything you have had to say ever. But then again, I don't like most of the posters here so I guess my say doesn't matter.
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Don't mind my posts, they are probably just a product of gang violence
How was most of that thread not things being pulled up from the gutter to discredit or personally attack others? From what I remember, the whole thread was basically that.
You'll have to pull up specific examples, but I have no intention on reading that monster of a thread, and to my knowledge I never contributed to it. My knowledge of what exploded there was kijin's legitimate dissatisfaction with something that happened externally to the gutter. I'd like to think that I'm currently one of the more prominent gutter members and that incident certainly had nothing to do with anything happening with posts I read in the gutter. The incident was referenced in the gutter to be sure, but it was strictly commentary that was referential in the opposite direction that you seem to be suggesting.
But really, you guys seem to hate this forum, and the staff. Why not just move your little club that "isn't really a big part of the forums" (that is a paraphrase but you get what i mean) to somewhere else? It's not like, in 2012, it's hard to be a member of two different forums.
I don't think I know nearly enough about the staff to hate them. Any staff members that I've had much interaction with have since been de-staffed.
I certainly don't hate this forum. Of course, to be fair the gutter represents a lot of what this forum means to me. The freedom allowed by the gutter is something that is very enjoyable for me. While the rest of the forum isn't nearly as important to me as the gutter it's not as if I never post there and it's not as if I venture out to troll people because I'm a gutterite and I'm the devil. I'd like to believe that I make valuable contributions.
That's what I wonder. I mean, what exactly is the purpose of this thread? If the Gutter is being shut down, what's the point in letting Gutter members and anti-Gutter members complain and argue and sling insults for 60 pages? If you've really made up your minds to shut it down, then nothing anyone says here is going to make a difference, so why give Gutter members a false sense of hope that they're somehow going to be able to sway your opinions (like last time)?
And if you are planning on letting them sway your opinions on the matter (again), that just makes the staff here look weak and wishy-washy, and makes it seem as if they will fold to the shouting and threats of a very vocal minority.
So what is it? If you've decided to shut it down, then you should stick to your decision and probably close this thread. All it's doing now is adding more fuel to the fire and driving a wedge between the community.
do you realize how worthless it would be to close this thread? another would be opened within a minute. This thread is very necesary, not letting greivences to be aired after a very controversial decision is an untenable situation.
How is this thread still alive? Little progress has been made and the Gutter is still being closed. Is there a point to discussing the matter further in CI? I could see this continuing on a help desk or via PM's but this thread has gotten all the attention its likely to get from the forum at large. More people are looking at M13 threads in the Rumor Mill than in this thread and that says a great deal about its overall relevance. People yelled about mods not being here to answer their questions but naturally they were busy...you know...moderating their assigned forums. I have to say thank you to any mods or admins who have taken time out of their duties to come here and try to get their point across. If I were in leadership I wouldn't have put up with the level of rudeness, sarcasm, and self-servingness displayed here today. Infractions and warning would have been handed out and I would have selected the more reasonable parties to participate in a private discussion of this very topic. But luckily I'm not in leadership so the fun continues.
Today I saw names I haven't seen on the forums in years and I wish it were for positive reasons.
I don't agree that this is a fair assessment of the situation. Of course there is a point is discussing this topic or else there wouldn't be +50 pages on the subject. The discussion has become more level headed and civil in my opinion as people started to flesh out the details and hear arguments from either side.
Just because a majority of the people on these boards don't come here to read what's going on doesn't mean that it is any less important. Some members of the community feel as though there rights are being infringed upon unjustly and therefore this thread was born out of the necessity to debate a potentially unfair ruling on a sub-set of the community. Remember that it is the rights of the minority that deserve to be protected as well.
& I would like to reiterate that I say I when I am speaking directly for myself, & 'we' or 'the staff' when I am speaking behalf of the staff in general.
That was not a gutter issue. That was an internal staffing issue. It's true that some of Kijin's friends defended him. However, he also recieved flak from gutter members for how he acted.
Same people same crew same witch hunting same drama same slander and behavior with the same anti-ria campaignists.
That's what I wonder. I mean, what exactly is the purpose of this thread? If the Gutter is being shut down, what's the point in letting Gutter members and anti-Gutter members complain and argue and sling insults for 60 pages? If you've really made up your minds to shut it down, then nothing anyone says here is going to make a difference, so why give Gutter members a false sense of hope that they're somehow going to be able to sway your opinions (like last time)?
And if you are planning on letting them sway your opinions on the matter (again), that just makes the staff here look weak and wishy-washy, and makes it seem as if they will fold to the shouting and threats of a very vocal minority.
So what is it? If you've decided to shut it down, then you should stick to your decision and probably close this thread. All it's doing now is adding more fuel to the fire and driving a wedge between the community.
If they had closed the Gutter without a thread, there would have been a thread saying they were corrupt Gestapo Ivory Tower Nazi Communists that were just out to get the Gutter ban all current admins now.
Quote from kingcobrex »
I never liked anything you have had to say ever. But then again, I don't like most of the posters here so I guess my say doesn't matter.
I don't even know who you are, but I fail to see how this is relevant or helps your cause.
To clarify I really don't have anything against the Gutter or anyone in it, apart from one or two people for reasons that are seperate to the Gutter entirely. I am just having a hard time understanding why you guys think you are faultless victims here? I have been posting on this website a long, long time. And A lot of the drama in this forum over those years has originated with people who were big posters in the gutter. It was bound to happen. No matter how much you guys jump up and down and complains and make valid points for the existence of the Gutter, it's going away. I just don't understand how, when they are going to shut you down, and are at least letting you know before they do it, why you can't bow out gracefully and just make your own new forum where you have the freedom to do and to talk about whatever and whomever you want??
I won't be replying in this thread any more as I am leaving to go outside and do things. Not any other reason beyond that. I'm not posting then running away. I have beers to drink and bands to watch play loud music.
And if you are planning on letting them sway your opinions on the matter (again), that just makes the staff here look weak and wishy-washy, and makes it seem as if they will fold to the shouting and threats of a very vocal minority.
But I tend to believe, as I hope others do, that this is what it takes to be a good moderator. In fact, making a decision like this without considering the other side of the argument, is very un-moderator like. If the position of moderator is to be taken literally, then they exist on these forums to hear those shouts and cries of a vocal minority because the minority has a right to their opinion as members of this community. That being said, the majority also has a say, which is why the gutter has stayed where it is secluded and out of the public eye.
EDIT: that being said, I'm sure this thread will have evolved further by tomorrow, so I'm staying tuned and hoping for a positive outcome from all this.
No, frankly. People in this thread are dredging up previous issues like the April thread, but they really are separate things.
Okay yes we get that.
Two different catalysts got it - same handful same people same drama same kicking screaming trolling same calling for the admins head same slandering the staff same accusations of corruption .....
Somehow his IRL judge commitments are less important than sitting on this thread, or worse just an easy excuse? This doesn't really deserve a response, but I am getting weary of the baseless character attacks that serve nothing to move this discussion forward.
Time management is one of those key skills in leadership. If he knew he had commitments to take care of he should have timed the posting of this thread better.
And I love how people are throwing the term "vocal minority" around like its some kind of insult. I would much rather be a "vocal minority" than a "silent majority."
A vocal minority is why the US is its own sovereign state and not a colony. A silent majority is the reason for 95% of the atrocities that have happened throughout history.
If you counted person for person, no. If you counted the loudest most dramatic, yes.
Okay, so what we can glean from your post is that loud and dramatic people are loud and dramatic.
There are a lot of differing viewpoints expressed in this thread beyond those of the loud and dramatic. It is extremely unfair that to say that everybody defending the gutter is witch hunting the staff and/or is doing so to stir up trouble. I love the gutter. I don't know anything about rianalnn. So little, that I'm almost positive I'm spelling his username incorrectly. I just want the gutter. I'm not alone either.
Good night Sally...my feelings regarding this thread can be accurately conveyed by this video. Hopefully something positive will have happened by the time I arise from torpor.
Two different catalysts got it - same handful same people same drama same kicking screaming trolling same calling for the admins head same slandering the staff same accusations of corruption .....
If you counted person for person, no. If you counted the loudest most dramatic, yes.
Again, as someone not kicking screaming trolling and someone not greatly involved in the april thread, you're wrong. Please stop trying to insist otherwise, it isn't getting you anywhere.
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This is just so, very, very wrong. Most members have only ever heard of the gutter because of CI threads that pop up because the gutter is being unfairly closed down. This is hardly the gutter failing to contain itself. Personally I don't care about what happens on the rest of salvation so long as the gutter is here. For the most part I check the gutter and spoilers, with occasional posts in other places, but it's not as if I'm flaming people on the main boards.
Sure, there are some members who do, but they would do this with or without the gutter. Madding in particular has been suspended multiple times and that's exactly what happens when gutter members treat the rest of salvation like the gutter- THEY GET SUSPENDED OR BANNED!
I would bet dollars to donuts that most flaming warnings on sally come from non-gutter members. Sure, it's true that there are fewer of us than of others, but the thing is we know the score. This year the gutter has been incredibly tame because we know we're on thin ice and I see no reason why this behavior wouldn't have continued indefinitely but then the staff came and kicked down our door and things got unpleasant.
We know the boundaries and if we cross a line we get punished, and we had this happy little balance until we were up and told to **** off.
So that whole Kijin thing had absolutely nothing to do with **** from the gutter being dragged onto the main boards? That's what I got from it.
But, like I said, I really don't care. I'm not going to get into an argument, I find this all pretty hilarious and boring.
Today I saw names I haven't seen on the forums in years and I wish it were for positive reasons.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=407314
My Buying Thread
That was not a gutter issue. That was an internal staffing issue. It's true that some of Kijin's friends defended him. However, he also recieved flak from gutter members for how he acted.
I don't see what that had to do with the gutter. My understanding was something happened in RLA that kijin took issue with and that was kijin's deal. Didn't really have anything to do with the gutter.
How was most of that thread not things being pulled up from the gutter to discredit or personally attack others? From what I remember, the whole thread was basically that.
But really, you guys seem to hate this forum, and the staff. Why not just move your little club that "isn't really a big part of the forums" (that is a paraphrase but you get what i mean) to somewhere else? It's not like, in 2012, it's hard to be a member of two different forums.
This post is neither constructive nor well thought out. For starters, the rumor mill tends to get an insane amount of traffic. Often times I've had a page or multiple pages of comments fill into a thread while trying to make a post in the rumor mill, so I have no idea what you're driving at with that comparison.
This thread has been doing anything but dying down. If you've actually been watching the thread it has indeed been evolving and a lot of different perspectives are emerging. Is it falling on deaf ears? Perhaps, but many would like to think/hope not.
And has already been said, it is completely unfair to treat this thread as an isolated incident. It is the sum of many things. Yes, some things were posted that should not have been and punishments have been issued. This has nothing to do with the merits of this thread. There are still plenty of people having level-headed discussion.
Frankly there are too many people involved for that to be a reasonable outcome.
If you don't care for this thread then why post in it?
That's what I wonder. I mean, what exactly is the purpose of this thread? If the Gutter is being shut down, what's the point in letting Gutter members and anti-Gutter members complain and argue and sling insults for 60 pages? If you've really made up your minds to shut it down, then nothing anyone says here is going to make a difference, so why give Gutter members a false sense of hope that they're somehow going to be able to sway your opinions (like last time)?
And if you are planning on letting them sway your opinions on the matter (again), that just makes the staff here look weak and wishy-washy, and makes it seem as if they will fold to the shouting and threats of a very vocal minority.
So what is it? If you've decided to shut it down, then you should stick to your decision and probably close this thread. All it's doing now is adding more fuel to the fire and driving a wedge between the community.
Trades
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(Signature courtesy of Argetlam of Hakai Studios
I don't hate the staff. Before a lot of this odd interwebz drama I always liked ria. And we are not a little club, but yes we are a part of the forum and that is why we speak our minds when things happen. We deserve to be treated like the rest of the forums. I do not get what you mean, because frankly, unlike ria, I never liked anything you have had to say ever. But then again, I don't like most of the posters here so I guess my say doesn't matter.
You'll have to pull up specific examples, but I have no intention on reading that monster of a thread, and to my knowledge I never contributed to it. My knowledge of what exploded there was kijin's legitimate dissatisfaction with something that happened externally to the gutter. I'd like to think that I'm currently one of the more prominent gutter members and that incident certainly had nothing to do with anything happening with posts I read in the gutter. The incident was referenced in the gutter to be sure, but it was strictly commentary that was referential in the opposite direction that you seem to be suggesting.
I don't think I know nearly enough about the staff to hate them. Any staff members that I've had much interaction with have since been de-staffed.
I certainly don't hate this forum. Of course, to be fair the gutter represents a lot of what this forum means to me. The freedom allowed by the gutter is something that is very enjoyable for me. While the rest of the forum isn't nearly as important to me as the gutter it's not as if I never post there and it's not as if I venture out to troll people because I'm a gutterite and I'm the devil. I'd like to believe that I make valuable contributions.
do you realize how worthless it would be to close this thread? another would be opened within a minute. This thread is very necesary, not letting greivences to be aired after a very controversial decision is an untenable situation.
I don't agree that this is a fair assessment of the situation. Of course there is a point is discussing this topic or else there wouldn't be +50 pages on the subject. The discussion has become more level headed and civil in my opinion as people started to flesh out the details and hear arguments from either side.
Just because a majority of the people on these boards don't come here to read what's going on doesn't mean that it is any less important. Some members of the community feel as though there rights are being infringed upon unjustly and therefore this thread was born out of the necessity to debate a potentially unfair ruling on a sub-set of the community. Remember that it is the rights of the minority that deserve to be protected as well.
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!
Same people same crew same witch hunting same drama same slander and behavior with the same anti-ria campaignists.
My Buying Thread
No, frankly. People in this thread are dredging up previous issues like the April thread, but they really are separate things.
They are most certainly not the same. Similar, sure. But not the same.
If they had closed the Gutter without a thread, there would have been a thread saying they were corrupt Gestapo Ivory Tower Nazi Communists that were just out to get the Gutter ban all current admins now.
I don't even know who you are, but I fail to see how this is relevant or helps your cause.
To clarify I really don't have anything against the Gutter or anyone in it, apart from one or two people for reasons that are seperate to the Gutter entirely. I am just having a hard time understanding why you guys think you are faultless victims here? I have been posting on this website a long, long time. And A lot of the drama in this forum over those years has originated with people who were big posters in the gutter. It was bound to happen. No matter how much you guys jump up and down and complains and make valid points for the existence of the Gutter, it's going away. I just don't understand how, when they are going to shut you down, and are at least letting you know before they do it, why you can't bow out gracefully and just make your own new forum where you have the freedom to do and to talk about whatever and whomever you want??
I won't be replying in this thread any more as I am leaving to go outside and do things. Not any other reason beyond that. I'm not posting then running away. I have beers to drink and bands to watch play loud music.
But I tend to believe, as I hope others do, that this is what it takes to be a good moderator. In fact, making a decision like this without considering the other side of the argument, is very un-moderator like. If the position of moderator is to be taken literally, then they exist on these forums to hear those shouts and cries of a vocal minority because the minority has a right to their opinion as members of this community. That being said, the majority also has a say, which is why the gutter has stayed where it is secluded and out of the public eye.
EDIT: that being said, I'm sure this thread will have evolved further by tomorrow, so I'm staying tuned and hoping for a positive outcome from all this.
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!
Okay yes we get that.
Two different catalysts got it - same handful same people same drama same kicking screaming trolling same calling for the admins head same slandering the staff same accusations of corruption .....
If you counted person for person, no. If you counted the loudest most dramatic, yes.
My Buying Thread
Time management is one of those key skills in leadership. If he knew he had commitments to take care of he should have timed the posting of this thread better.
Then why have more than have of them not bothered to comment? Especially the ones that were part of this initial decision.
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And I love how people are throwing the term "vocal minority" around like its some kind of insult. I would much rather be a "vocal minority" than a "silent majority."
A vocal minority is why the US is its own sovereign state and not a colony. A silent majority is the reason for 95% of the atrocities that have happened throughout history.
"Bad things happen when good men do nothing"
/in before hyperbole
The Family
Okay, so what we can glean from your post is that loud and dramatic people are loud and dramatic.
There are a lot of differing viewpoints expressed in this thread beyond those of the loud and dramatic. It is extremely unfair that to say that everybody defending the gutter is witch hunting the staff and/or is doing so to stir up trouble. I love the gutter. I don't know anything about rianalnn. So little, that I'm almost positive I'm spelling his username incorrectly. I just want the gutter. I'm not alone either.
Again, as someone not kicking screaming trolling and someone not greatly involved in the april thread, you're wrong. Please stop trying to insist otherwise, it isn't getting you anywhere.