It's honestly not a huge sticking point with me. Though I would be curious to see the mod cave because that could actually reveal some important bias from those in power. But if it's written in private should that stay private too?
I'm for consistency. If the gutter is being closed, then the mod cave insult threads should be closed. If the gutter is opened, so should the mod cave.
Alright, at least you are being consistent. I think this should be the argument from gutter members, not "if the gutter is open, the mod cave should be too". That line of argument is good for pointing out hypocrisy true, but if someone's view is that everything should be private, arguing for this tit for tat approach takes away from their legitimacy.
Although I am probably reading into this way too much.
I mean, the powers that be on the forum asked us to be more candid and open about what's going on in the Gutter, so we were, and now there's some tears and fears about bullying that are generally unfounded, meanwhile those same powers that be have a thread where they're probably saying I'm a ****ing idiot and rabble rouser and uninvited to their birthday parties or something.
But yeah, let's hold some users that mostly are just normal users on the site more accountable for what's said on this forum than the people policing it. There's a concept.
Alright, at least you are being consistent. I think this should be the argument from gutter members, not "if the gutter is open, the mod cave should be too".
You're doing that Gutter-member lumping thing; I'm here to make pointed political humor, not reset the clock on the time bomb attached to the bottom of the Gutter. I'm angry that the staff is so far up its own ass that it's become a singularity, the Gutter closing is just a tipping point for me to raise ire against that fact.
You shouldn't actually elect Steven Colbert to office, he's a satirist, not a politician.
if someone's view is that everything should be private, arguing for this tit for tat approach takes away from their legitimacy.
Although I am probably reading into this way too much.
My line of argument is holding the staff to their word and accountable for their actions if their line of play is to make it so that "the Gutter" is somehow more accountable for what its members say than the staff presiding over the entire site. As a person who was staff for the overwhelming majority of this site's existence, I can say for sure that in closing and airing the Gutter to the forum, they are 100% not being present and accountable for the things they're doing and saying.
No one on staff has made reference to this in the past in previous discussions because the issue has never been principally about hidden back talk that nudges bullying on (though it has come up about hidden content of the Gutter in the past -- to which the posters opened the Gutter up to more users). But if we're making this about bullying and what the staff is doing, we're forgetting all the stuff they have on the city hall lawn.
I resent a large portion of the former senior administrative staff for the negativity that they condoned and themselves disseminated. They made too many personal exceptions and not enough people spoke out against their disparaging behavior. It was not OK. This built up to controversies such as "Sakura" that were at least partly their own doing.
I believe, however, it's never too late to do the right thing and I applaud the current administration for finally seriously addressing the issue of fostering a positive community. I hope that the staff could put down its own "hate" thread as an act of good faith.
The staff is addressing the issue of fostering a positive community by making themselves the orwellian negative community that tells us all to keep smiling. K
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
I don't think so. I've been around this site for a while now, and, though I seem to not come out much, I pay attention. I see the attitude of Gutter members (having had my own runins with them outside the Gutter), and, frankly, I find their behavior in defense of their playroom a little indefensible. As someone said earlier, you could have taken the high road. To be honest, I have never seen Gutter members take a high road in a confrontation, ever. Combine that with the purpose of the Gutter - to encourage negative behaviors - and it's hard to feel any sympathy for you.
If you have never seen us take the high road ever than it is quite obvious you aren't actually paying as much attention as you claim. Thank you for your attempts at being unbiased but they completely fell through when you spoke as if things that have actually happened had not. We thank you for your congratulating of the mods on their epic shut down, but this thread is for discussion of the closure of the gutter. May I suggest you create a special occasions thread to celebrate?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
Why? I can only suspect it is like last time it was open to the public; when I started pointing out the actual problems going on in the gutter I was booted and N_S and others started panicking and piling on me to cover their butts. I think opening the gutter for all to see will be the final nail in the coffin for all those skeptical about this decision.
That's a completely accurate portrayal of events to
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
"The Gutter" should've been closed last time all this garbage floated to the surface. Honestly, if this is how you people talk on the open parts of the forum, I'm glad I never accepted an invitation to see the private ones.
There are many, many more tools in the box to keep the forum stable besides a minority of angry, self-proclaimed watchdogs, who have yet to justify their position beyond "The people in charge are big meanies, but I still come here every day".
I could care less if it's made public, though. Not something I'd bother to read anyway.
"The Gutter" should've been closed last time all this garbage floated to the surface. Honestly, if this is how you people talk on the open parts of the forum, I'm glad I never accepted an invitation to see the private ones.
There are many, many more tools in the box to keep the forum stable besides a minority of angry, self-proclaimed watchdogs, who have yet to justify their position beyond "The people in charge are big meanies, but I still come here every day".
I could care less if it's made public, though. Not something I'd bother to read anyway.
May I ask what parts of this forum do you come here to read about?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Randall 0705 - 2219 - 6000 and my pokemon safari is water, Azumarill Bibarel and Floatzel
Quote from "Megiddo" »
i like banning people because it makes people I don't like go away
Having had access to both places, I can guarantee you that you got much more roughed in the lounge. You'd be surprised, but you actually received a lot of positive feedback in the gutter.
For example:
It may have been tongue-in-cheek, but I got a kick out of that.
At this point I guess we just have to wait for an admin to address the concerns about the mod cave. I will be eagerly waiting.
Actually this is a very good point that has been overlooked.
This extraneous shutdown, coming just after new admin has been appointed, seems to point towards this conclusion.
With two admins, one of them having issues against the Gutter, we had a shaky status-quo (which also allowed some other abuses elsewhere). To upset this status-quo, you only needed to get someone on board that you would be able to sway into shutting down the Gutter. I can only guess, but this might have been what happened.
This makes me a bit sad, because it makes my previous thread arguing for staff reform eerily premonitory, because I believe that with 5 admins, such a debacle wouldn't have happened...
If something good has to come from yet this burning at the stake, I hope it is this. The staff needs more checks, as it is still very clear that a higher up that flies off the hook can make too many damage to the site.
I is up to the community to ask for these reforms and this improvement of the staff accountabilty.
Keep this in mind. It won't end here. Next time there won't be any Gutter to lynch anymore, and it will be the turn of other sections and groups of friends.
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
I'd like to point out that Viperesque has a history of being kicked out of the gutter for sucking (according to our standards), meaning that you could easily say that 2 of the admins were anti gutter.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
If you have never seen us take the high road ever than it is quite obvious you aren't actually paying as much attention as you claim. Thank you for your attempts at being unbiased but they completely fell through when you spoke as if things that have actually happened had not. We thank you for your congratulating of the mods on their epic shut down, but this thread is for discussion of the closure of the gutter. May I suggest you create a special occasions thread to celebrate?
She is discussing the closure of the gutter.
There is no preface in the original post that says only supporters of the gutter may post or share their opinion.
Actually this is a very good point that has been overlooked.
This extraneous shutdown, coming just after new admin has been appointed, seems to point towards this conclusion.
With two admins, one of them having issues against the Gutter, we had a shaky status-quo (which also allowed some other abuses elsewhere). To upset this status-quo, you only needed to get someone on board that you would be able to sway into shutting down the Gutter. I can only guess, but this might have been what happened.
This makes me a bit sad, because it makes my previous thread arguing for staff reform eerily premonitory, because I believe that with 5 admins, such a debacle wouldn't have happened...
This is sort of how all politics work.
We can only say it would be different with '5' admins if at least 3 of 5 supported the existence of the gutter. That would be speculating the odds though.
It does seem like the angry supporters are numerous here - but if you count them indivudually, its not alot of people. If you were to put the issue to an open poll this week on MTGS, how many would be for or against having such a section exist on the forum? I can't speculate it would swing one way or another; nobody really can.
If something good has to come from yet this burning at the stake, I hope it is this. The staff needs more checks, as it is still very clear that a higher up that flies off the hook can make too many damage to the site.
I personally worry that without this sandbox, what was contained in the sandbox will spill out in other sections instead. Like letting all the ghosts out of the containment unit >.<
I don't think so. I've been around this site for a while now, and, though I seem to not come out much, I pay attention. I see the attitude of Gutter members (having had my own runins with them outside the Gutter), and, frankly, I find their behavior in defense of their playroom a little indefensible. As someone said earlier, you could have taken the high road. To be honest, I have never seen Gutter members take a high road in a confrontation, ever. Combine that with the purpose of the Gutter - to encourage negative behaviors - and it's hard to feel any sympathy for you.
Does it or does it not seem like the same group of people up in arms previously, challenging the integrity of the staff, making a large dramatic thread over the ordeal, turning the thread into some personal war with past MTGS history and calling for public hanging of its administration?
It may have been tongue-in-cheek, but I got a kick out of that.
At this point I guess we just have to wait for an admin to address the concerns about the mod cave. I will be eagerly waiting.
I'd like to point out that the thread this was posted in was a thread about you that is 6 pages long of nothing but how much of a valuable member here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Randall 0705 - 2219 - 6000 and my pokemon safari is water, Azumarill Bibarel and Floatzel
Quote from "Megiddo" »
i like banning people because it makes people I don't like go away
Well, that's mostly what we do around there, but it seems we have been a menace for the integrity of this site for too many years. Lord knows how these walls are still standing after so much abuse.
If our toungues are in our cheeks, how will we fellate the staff like we're supposed to?
She is discussing the closure of the gutter.
There is no preface in the original post that says only supporters of the gutter may post or share their opinion.
I'm just going to assume you are not reading posts or following the conversation because frankly what you have written does not even apply to me telling GoC that his claims that we have never taken the high road shows that he isn't even paying attention.
Thanks for your input though!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
I'd like to point out that the thread this was posted in was a thread about you that is 6 pages long of nothing but how much of a valuable member here.
So the LogicXXXXXXXXXX titles were actually official fan club identifiers?
May I ask what parts of this forum do you come here to read about?
Magic General and The Rumor Mill, usually. Sometimes I look at the art and storyline sections too. I've looked at the Water Cooler section a few times to see what news interests other Magic players, but that's about it.
It does seem like the angry supporters are numerous here - but if you count them indivudually, its not alot of people. If you were to put the issue to an open poll this week on MTGS, how many would be for or against having such a section exist on the forum? I can't speculate it would swing one way or another; nobody really can.
As a moderator on MTGS, frankly I could care less about the opinions of posters who only post in the Rumor Mill (for example) relating to the gutter. The Gutter has never been a concern for the community at large, it has been a concern of the Gutter users and the staff.
while the problems associated with the gutter have risen to the forefront.
How is this the case viperesque? The gutter has been quiet and drama free other than the drama a couple months ago that...........oh yeah you guys pretty much antagonized. What problems associated witht he gutter were rising to the forefront? Cyberbullying in general? Is that what this means? If not, I'd love to hear how our problems were once again rising to the forefront.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
An open poll wouldn't help much unless the voters had had enough access to the gutter to vote in an informed fashion.
And with 5 admins, even if there were 3 that were in favor of the shutdown of this subsection (As arbitrary as it may be), the decision would still be much more legitimate since the odds of having 3 persons making a bad decision call as a result of "flying off the hook" would significantly lesser. Instead, in the current situation, we (likely) have just one admin flying off the hook and making a series of bad calls without any repercussions. Sadly, I fear that my previous CI thread might have hastened the demise of our subforums.
Is valid point; a number like 5 does add more "stability" as things don't swing as easily.
There are negative aspects of having so many administrators as well. Decisions don't get finalized, actions are not carried out, change cannot be made because every idea gets 'checked' by 'somebody'. Generally, in those situations you defere to the site owner whos actually fronting the bill. From what I've read in previous topics, that person isn't around much to do so.
If our toungues are in our cheeks, how will we fellate the staff like we're supposed to?
I'm just going to assume you are not reading posts or following the conversation because frankly what you have written does not even apply to me telling GoC that his claims that we have never taken the high road shows that he isn't even paying attention.
Thanks for your input though!
Sure it does. You sure didn't take the high road in the previous Kijin incident, did you. No no. Same story, same handful of people writing walls of text slamming the staff and anyone else in their way with a bunch of dramatic bull. Its your MO here.
Oh I'm sure there are many bad things being said about me in both the gutter and mod chat.
lol your not the only one. i figure there are a few others, but i figure me and you are at the top of their hit lists.
i know i am at the top of 1 person's hit list.
no they will not let the mod chat be open to the public because they would probably lose half their membership if they actually saw what the mod's were posting about them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around. Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
It does seem like the angry supporters are numerous here - but if you count them indivudually, its not alot of people. If you were to put the issue to an open poll this week on MTGS, how many would be for or against having such a section exist on the forum? I can't speculate it would swing one way or another; nobody really can.
And still, there aren't forum awards anymore in MTGS because the Gutter allegedly rigged the voting?
The thing is that the Gutter is nothing but a Community within the larger Community of MTGS. Just as CCC or the Speakeasy. If the Speakeasy were to be closed, do you think there would be lots of people against that? How would you vote in such poll?
Its a win-win situation. Letting us complain, the wear out settles in, and BAM! First off July we get shut down. If we complain: "but we let you guys express yourselves in CI!"
you are correct. the only further you can go in the owner but he seems more MIA than here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around. Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Magic General and The Rumor Mill, usually. Sometimes I look at the art and storyline sections too. I've looked at the Water Cooler section a few times to see what news interests other Magic players, but that's about it.
So, say a mod would delete the art section of the site saying it has nothing to do with Magic since it's just people showing off their artwork and that nobody cares about it. How would you feel? Upset, correct? Specially When you had no say in the matter.
This is how we feel. We even complied with deleting older posts and were told we would have an open communication with the mods and yet never had one. We even told the mods if they wanted to talk to us they can post to work out a solution and yet here we are, without being told the real reason why.
They throw up a smoke screen about cyberbullying yet in their own mod lounge they have a thread dedicated, let me repeat that in bold, DEDICATED to singling out using whilst we posted in one thread that was the longest thread on mtg ever. The mods are the cyberbullies here, not the Gutter.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Randall 0705 - 2219 - 6000 and my pokemon safari is water, Azumarill Bibarel and Floatzel
Quote from "Megiddo" »
i like banning people because it makes people I don't like go away
Yeah, it should be all private. Basically this:
Alright, at least you are being consistent. I think this should be the argument from gutter members, not "if the gutter is open, the mod cave should be too". That line of argument is good for pointing out hypocrisy true, but if someone's view is that everything should be private, arguing for this tit for tat approach takes away from their legitimacy.
Although I am probably reading into this way too much.
EDIT: Sorry for all the ninja edits.
But yeah, let's hold some users that mostly are just normal users on the site more accountable for what's said on this forum than the people policing it. There's a concept.
You're doing that Gutter-member lumping thing; I'm here to make pointed political humor, not reset the clock on the time bomb attached to the bottom of the Gutter. I'm angry that the staff is so far up its own ass that it's become a singularity, the Gutter closing is just a tipping point for me to raise ire against that fact.
You shouldn't actually elect Steven Colbert to office, he's a satirist, not a politician.
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
I have no way of knowing if this is already in effect because I normally have Gutter access. If it's not, I hope it never is.
My YouTube Channel
My line of argument is holding the staff to their word and accountable for their actions if their line of play is to make it so that "the Gutter" is somehow more accountable for what its members say than the staff presiding over the entire site. As a person who was staff for the overwhelming majority of this site's existence, I can say for sure that in closing and airing the Gutter to the forum, they are 100% not being present and accountable for the things they're doing and saying.
No one on staff has made reference to this in the past in previous discussions because the issue has never been principally about hidden back talk that nudges bullying on (though it has come up about hidden content of the Gutter in the past -- to which the posters opened the Gutter up to more users). But if we're making this about bullying and what the staff is doing, we're forgetting all the stuff they have on the city hall lawn.
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
The staff is addressing the issue of fostering a positive community by making themselves the orwellian negative community that tells us all to keep smiling. K
If you have never seen us take the high road ever than it is quite obvious you aren't actually paying as much attention as you claim. Thank you for your attempts at being unbiased but they completely fell through when you spoke as if things that have actually happened had not. We thank you for your congratulating of the mods on their epic shut down, but this thread is for discussion of the closure of the gutter. May I suggest you create a special occasions thread to celebrate?
That's a completely accurate portrayal of events to
There are many, many more tools in the box to keep the forum stable besides a minority of angry, self-proclaimed watchdogs, who have yet to justify their position beyond "The people in charge are big meanies, but I still come here every day".
I could care less if it's made public, though. Not something I'd bother to read anyway.
May I ask what parts of this forum do you come here to read about?
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
It may have been tongue-in-cheek, but I got a kick out of that.
At this point I guess we just have to wait for an admin to address the concerns about the mod cave. I will be eagerly waiting.
I'd like to point out that Viperesque has a history of being kicked out of the gutter for sucking (according to our standards), meaning that you could easily say that 2 of the admins were anti gutter.
No, at this point we are waiting for an admin to address the concerns about the gutter, their hipocrisy, their corruption, and the mod cave.
She is discussing the closure of the gutter.
There is no preface in the original post that says only supporters of the gutter may post or share their opinion.
This is sort of how all politics work.
We can only say it would be different with '5' admins if at least 3 of 5 supported the existence of the gutter. That would be speculating the odds though.
It does seem like the angry supporters are numerous here - but if you count them indivudually, its not alot of people. If you were to put the issue to an open poll this week on MTGS, how many would be for or against having such a section exist on the forum? I can't speculate it would swing one way or another; nobody really can.
I personally worry that without this sandbox, what was contained in the sandbox will spill out in other sections instead. Like letting all the ghosts out of the containment unit >.<
Does it or does it not seem like the same group of people up in arms previously, challenging the integrity of the staff, making a large dramatic thread over the ordeal, turning the thread into some personal war with past MTGS history and calling for public hanging of its administration?
My Buying Thread
I'd like to point out that the thread this was posted in was a thread about you that is 6 pages long of nothing but how much of a valuable member here.
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
If our toungues are in our cheeks, how will we fellate the staff like we're supposed to?
I'm just going to assume you are not reading posts or following the conversation because frankly what you have written does not even apply to me telling GoC that his claims that we have never taken the high road shows that he isn't even paying attention.
Thanks for your input though!
So the LogicXXXXXXXXXX titles were actually official fan club identifiers?
Magic General and The Rumor Mill, usually. Sometimes I look at the art and storyline sections too. I've looked at the Water Cooler section a few times to see what news interests other Magic players, but that's about it.
As a moderator on MTGS, frankly I could care less about the opinions of posters who only post in the Rumor Mill (for example) relating to the gutter. The Gutter has never been a concern for the community at large, it has been a concern of the Gutter users and the staff.
while the problems associated with the gutter have risen to the forefront.
How is this the case viperesque? The gutter has been quiet and drama free other than the drama a couple months ago that...........oh yeah you guys pretty much antagonized. What problems associated witht he gutter were rising to the forefront? Cyberbullying in general? Is that what this means? If not, I'd love to hear how our problems were once again rising to the forefront.
Is valid point; a number like 5 does add more "stability" as things don't swing as easily.
There are negative aspects of having so many administrators as well. Decisions don't get finalized, actions are not carried out, change cannot be made because every idea gets 'checked' by 'somebody'. Generally, in those situations you defere to the site owner whos actually fronting the bill. From what I've read in previous topics, that person isn't around much to do so.
Sure it does. You sure didn't take the high road in the previous Kijin incident, did you. No no. Same story, same handful of people writing walls of text slamming the staff and anyone else in their way with a bunch of dramatic bull. Its your MO here.
My Buying Thread
lol your not the only one. i figure there are a few others, but i figure me and you are at the top of their hit lists.
i know i am at the top of 1 person's hit list.
no they will not let the mod chat be open to the public because they would probably lose half their membership if they actually saw what the mod's were posting about them.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
And still, there aren't forum awards anymore in MTGS because the Gutter allegedly rigged the voting?
The thing is that the Gutter is nothing but a Community within the larger Community of MTGS. Just as CCC or the Speakeasy. If the Speakeasy were to be closed, do you think there would be lots of people against that? How would you vote in such poll?
My YouTube Channel
you are correct. the only further you can go in the owner but he seems more MIA than here.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
So, say a mod would delete the art section of the site saying it has nothing to do with Magic since it's just people showing off their artwork and that nobody cares about it. How would you feel? Upset, correct? Specially When you had no say in the matter.
This is how we feel. We even complied with deleting older posts and were told we would have an open communication with the mods and yet never had one. We even told the mods if they wanted to talk to us they can post to work out a solution and yet here we are, without being told the real reason why.
They throw up a smoke screen about cyberbullying yet in their own mod lounge they have a thread dedicated, let me repeat that in bold, DEDICATED to singling out using whilst we posted in one thread that was the longest thread on mtg ever. The mods are the cyberbullies here, not the Gutter.
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition