The more I read these posts I was thining the same thing. They were building a case against him, and then use any excuse to remove him as a mod. Just my thoughts.
One man's "excuse" is another man's "final straw."
It's somewhat easier to evaluate - from a third party perspective - the removal of a staff member when it's because of a single minor incident. It's really hard to evaluate the removal of a staff member because of a long string of sustained minor incidents.
I'm not sure if that is a problem that needs to be solved. I think it's clear that it should be possible for a staff member to be removed if they have a long history of "riding the edge". The opposition to the given demodding appears to largely stem from people being unaware that Kijin was riding said edge. But I have not seen any proposals that increase awareness of such situations without causing a greater cost. For example, imagine if there was a public warning "mod X is riding the edge". It would make it less of a surprise if that mod gets de-modded 6 months later, but in the meantime that mod's ability to do his/her job would be severely eroded by what would essentially be a public vote of no-confidence. And thus the issue would just be time-shifted to an earlier point in the chain of events. This issue of confidence in the moderating staff is one of the reasons that staff self-policing needs to be a private matter in so many cases.
There has to be a point at which we simply trust the admins to do their jobs, including the job of self-policing. The exact placement of that point can be altered somewhat, but trying to push it too far back seems like it will have unintended consequences. Transparency and formality bring the benefit of limiting the potential damage by "rogue" administrators, or those simply out of touch with the site's needs - but they do so at the cost of also limiting the effectiveness and speed of administrators that are already doing their job well.
There has to be a point at which we simply trust the admins to do their jobs, including the job of self-policing.
And there have been times in this sites history where that has been the case. The most recent example of this being the Azrael headed administration. However, I think clearly in this instance there has been a breakdown in self policing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
And there have been times in this sites history where that has been the case. The most recent example of this being the Azrael headed administration. However, I think clearly in this instance there has been a breakdown in self policing.
I am curious how the current Admins failed to police themselves. I don't see it, but I am also pretty entrenched so my perspective might be skewed.
You mean rianalnn that took himself off active duty and closed his helpdesk with the following message?
General notice that I'm going to go find my moral compass. If you need an admin, Sene is you man, or hit a global. They're awesome.
To me that IS self policing. I know some wanted more or faster, but we all know that is common in all aspects of life. Are you talking about something else?
You mean rianalnn that took himself off active duty and closed his helpdesk with the following message?
To me that IS self policing. I know some wanted more or faster, but we all know that is common in all aspects of life. Are you talking about something else?
I'm referring to how it took a ridiculous drama bomb and yelling and screaming an public shaming for this self policing to happing. I'm not so much decrying the system so much as decrying the lack of anybody on the staff having either the opinion or the voice to keep aloof coworkers grounded. I realize that the mod staff is hierarchical but this just seemed like the last conditions upon which this sort of discussion needed to be happening. While I applaud Ria for being able to remove himself, his self policing to me came at a point where the moment of self policing had passed, and the moment for plain policing had arisen. Thus the issue.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
I don't think aloof is a word I would ever use to describe Rianalnn since he's pretty fired up at all times... like he never seems like he's just coasting. Were you talking about somebody else since coworkers was plural?
Policing takes time. If it doesn't you have bigger problems. Imagine if you called the police and within 2 seconds they showed up... it means they are either supernatural or they hang out outside your door. It's a bad analogy, but even when you are self-policing responsible individuals take a few minutes to think things over before they act.
I get the frustration on all sides. We are now down an admin for a little while, you got to witness/experience this "ridiculous drama bomb" and it's going to take a week or so to see the fruits of this tussle. But, its there. And despite some peoples' claims that we are XXXXXX we are listening and we do try to find amicable solutions.
I meant aloof to mean "not friendly or forthcoming", while also giving the image of being aloof from proper moderator mannerisms (be this a CoC or whatever). I suppose I may have been able to choose a better word, and for that I apologize. I would agree Ria is never just coasting, this much is true. Also, it seems inappropriate of me to sound off on which staff members I personally feel are the same sort of aloof as Ria, that just seems like a path toward more drama and resentment.
Your last parcel of text is somewhat inspiring though, and hopefully with people like you and Sene on the task these amicable solutions will be reached, implemented, and successful.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
I have watched Sene rise from a mod to a global to an admin over the past few months. During this time, he has never lost his sense of humor, dignity, or perspective. Regardless of complaints we have or have had about other forum leaders, I firmly believe that Sene is a fantastic person who will do an excellent job as forum administrator. You (a generalized "you") will always get a fair shake from him. I have no doubt that his rationality, poise, and calmness will allow him to excel in the administrator diplomat role that Azrael once occupied.
You mean rianalnn that took himself off active duty and closed his helpdesk with the following message?
To me that IS self policing. I know some wanted more or faster, but we all know that is common in all aspects of life. Are you talking about something else?
Give me a break, Galspanic. He left a sarcastic message in his closed help-desk totally mocking this thread and Kijin. He tried to get one last shot in before removing himself from "active duty," AKA he doesn't feel like defending himself so he is just going to goof around in the mod lounge for a bit.
Give me a break, Galspanic. He left a sarcastic message in his closed help-desk totally mocking this thread and Kijin. He tried to get one last shot in before removing himself from "active duty," AKA he doesn't feel like defending himself so he is just going to goof around in the mod lounge for a bit.
His hiatus means literally nothing.
If you or I said that it would be 100% sarcastic. Based on conversations before, during, and since I suspect it's not.
I haven't seen him in the mod lounge since. When we talked it was (edit: mostly) about family stuff.
One man's "excuse" is another man's "final straw."
It's somewhat easier to evaluate - from a third party perspective - the removal of a staff member when it's because of a single minor incident. It's really hard to evaluate the removal of a staff member because of a long string of sustained minor incidents.
I'm not sure if that is a problem that needs to be solved. I think it's clear that it should be possible for a staff member to be removed if they have a long history of "riding the edge". The opposition to the given demodding appears to largely stem from people being unaware that Kijin was riding said edge. But I have not seen any proposals that increase awareness of such situations without causing a greater cost. For example, imagine if there was a public warning "mod X is riding the edge". It would make it less of a surprise if that mod gets de-modded 6 months later, but in the meantime that mod's ability to do his/her job would be severely eroded by what would essentially be a public vote of no-confidence. And thus the issue would just be time-shifted to an earlier point in the chain of events. This issue of confidence in the moderating staff is one of the reasons that staff self-policing needs to be a private matter in so many cases.
Kijin's history is a bit tricky to follow unless you've been a member of this site for a really long time. There was a brief stint where he was actually demodded but then quickly remodded after that. I've been around Kijin enough to know that while he is a very knowledgeable person when it comes to Magic, his abrasive attitude got in the way a lot of times. That's not to say this is always bad. There are many people out there that just can't be talked to unless you get in their face to get the message across. There are places where that's appropriate to do (e.g. a boss trying to get across to an incompetent employee), but not so much when you're someone the rest of the community should look up to. That's how I've always viewed mods and admins. They are role models for how to conduct yourself on the site appropriately.
You know a college professor that is difficult to fire because he/she has tenure? That's basically what Kijin reminds me of -- since he has been a mod forever, he can have his tenure keep himself on the staff despite all the complaints people have made about him. The fact that he was demodded once before shows that his ability to be a competent mod has been called into question well before this incident happened.
The staff said a "culture change" has been happening behind the scenes for the mods, and I can clearly see what they're talking about. Most of the members that have been here since The Exodus have been purged from the staff (Annorax, Kijin, Caranthir, charlequin, etc.), being replaced with fresh blood. It used to be that being a mod meant being friends with the same core of OGs that have been with this community dating back to MTG News for over a decade, rather than being a mod based on merit. That is now no longer the case. Things have definitely improved quite recently, such as the site-wide issues thread to help increase transparency. Believe me when I say that I want to have more transparency. There was next to no transparency at all in the bad ol' days except for the Suspended/Banned thread.
Another thing: I'm disappointed to see both Xenphire and urzassedatives poo-poo the site and essentially proclaim, "This site is done for." Really now? Yes, I know that MTG Salvation has lasted for over seven years now. Yes, I know that seven years is a very long time especially in today's world where information travels faster than it ever has been. That being said, there are other forums out there that have not only survived, but thrived for long periods of time. A few other forums I frequent such as SRK and Smash World Forums have been active since at least 2000 and they're still very strong communities to this day! They have had their share of drama bombs and crises just like we have. They have also evolved over time as well. Why can't we do the same? We're not going to have the same types of spoilers like we did in the past, but that doesn't mean the site should roll over and die because of that.
Another thing: I'm disappointed to see both Xenphire and urzassedatives poo-poo the site and essentially proclaim, "This site is done for." Really now? Yes, I know that MTG Salvation has lasted for over seven years now. Yes, I know that seven years is a very long time especially in today's world where information travels faster than it ever has been. That being said, there are other forums out there that have not only survived, but thrived for long periods of time. A few other forums I frequent such as SRK and Smash World Forums have been active since at least 2000 and they're still very strong communities to this day! They have had their share of drama bombs and crises just like we have. They have also evolved over time as well. Why can't we do the same? We're not going to have the same types of spoilers like we did in the past, but that doesn't mean the site should roll over and die because of that.
This is fairly off topic to the matter in this thread in general, but...
It's not so much that I feel the website is kaput, as much as it lost it's identity long ago and with the quality of posts here in the sections actually pertaining to Magic being rather weak, it makes bookmarking niche websites/resources with less quantity but more quality look better. Rumor Mill threads degenerating into broken record debates, historically repeating"X card sucks" "Preorder price are stupid" etc. dribble was tiresome ages ago. The added state of it existing as nothing more than a source for regurgitating news from websites doesn't hold water in terms of value. Many people are already visiting elsewhere for the info for it to end up here so fast to begin with. Then there's what Viricide said about compiling the information here, so there's that, but even the compiled spoiler layout is extremely old and quite an eyesore. The days of the Rumor Mill being an actual Rumor Mill are long gone. Meanwhile the competitive sections are somewhat of a joke compared to other resources outside MTGS (Look at the thread in CI not too long ago about relevancy in the competitive formats). Chalk this up to other websites having pro players etc., but I'd rather read those than all the posts of people here that think they're an authority or on a pro level for going 3-1 at FNM (any arrogance aside). Hannes is MIA and the lack of social media networking can also be seen as partially responsible for being unable to find ways to fund vBulletin and website upgrades in some ways outside of advertising on the main website. There are gold mines out there to be taken advantage of that would not intrude on the user experience here yet add to it.
I don't expect the website to roll over and die, but it does feel like it's floating in limbo on a yearly cycle of inevitable staff changes that come in waves with marginal benefits for the community as a whole. Most of what happens in these threads your average user won't notice. They won't notice the difference between if Ria or Annorax or Kingcobweb or Sakabatou are admins. They won't notice if Hannes goes missing. Without reason to look deeper there's only the indirect apathy. Some people know that the place could be more exciting, and that there's more potential if it could shake the bonds of apathy and get the rest of the community more involved somehow. Even MTGNews hasn't completely died yet, albeit remaining in a state of borderline coma. As long as there's word of mouth and the human instinct to continue habitual behavior persists, there will be activity here. But that doesn't mean the forum/website itself isn't horribly out of date or that many facets of MTGS don't currently leave a lot to be desired. Where being active is concerned (and this goes for other facets of the website as well), it comes down to quality over quantity. I kept coming back here during a break from Magic extending between Ravnica up to Rise of the Eldrazi, but that doesn't mean it was for the quality of the community - it's because of familiarity and that old habits die hard. That's why a lot of people who repeatedly admit to not even playing Magic still post - Not because there's much intelligent or riveting discussion to be had, but because even when you find yourself a stranger in familiar territory, you still seek out what you know.
Now, as for the inevitable question as to what I would then suggest given my personal feelings on the direction and lack of relevancy of the website? That would take a lot of consideration, research and time on my part to compile into something presentable. As it is, I already told Sene I have no desire to have much say in what happens around here anymore (commentary in regards to forum happenings aside). I just help out where I know I can (ie. Phyrexian Mana smilies), because given the long-winded history I still care about where the website is going although not so much the politics. Why? Mostly because getting people on the internet behind a computer to admit right or wrong and put their ego aside is an exhausting process of irrelevant semantics and flip-flopping.
I don't think mtgs has stooped to mtgnews levels yet but the signs are certainly there that it could be headed that way.
I do understand the people posting here saying " just trust the staff and get over it" etc, because like you say they have no need to be further involved in the site as long as nothing interupts their posting and reading rumours.
However this thread is more than just about kijins demodding, it is just a symptom of a larger problem.
This is sort of an obvious response, but my question would be: can we do anything about it? There have been ideas and suggestions throughout this thread, but many of them have been off-handed comments buried inside of rants. Particularly from people like you that have a long history here and have my utmost respect, I'm curious if you think the situation is "beyond hope" so to speak.
I'm not sure why you think that. Yes, Hannes' input would be nice, but the community is still growing and the site is still effecting positive changes. If nothing else, I can come come up with examples of owner interference being considered a big problem, such as on Facebook, I'm just not seeing the crisis you speak of.
I'm not sure why you think that. Yes, Hannes' input would be nice, but the community is still growing and the site is still effecting positive changes. If nothing else, I can come come up with examples of owner interference being considered a big problem, such as on Facebook, I'm just not seeing the crisis you speak of.
I think what Madding is getting at is that a lot of the technical aspects of site improvement are outside the staff's abilities and only Hannes can implement them. If the site is to 'get with the times' and start implementing social media and other modern features, it would need to be under Hannes' direction.
Of course, I could be wrong and Madding was saying Hannes needs to come in and whip the staff into shape somehow, but I don't think that's it.
Well, it's not that I don't think we need to upgrade, I've been in favor of these sorts of upgrades for a long time, it's just that I don't get the idea that the site is "beyond hope" without them. I disremember the thread, but Azrael had the most eloquent answer to this: this site fills a niche, and it's obviously a pretty big one, and there's no evidence to suggest that any upgrades will prevent it from doing so into the foreseeable future. Look at the mothership: they obviously have a vested interest in upgrades, they make them all the time, yet this site roundly kicks its butt for viewership. We're doing something right, and it's not the upgrades that are doing it.
Well, it's not that I don't think we need to upgrade, I've been in favor of these sorts of upgrades for a long time, it's just that I don't get the idea that the site is "beyond hope" without them. I disremember the thread, but Azrael had the most eloquent answer to this: this site fills a niche, and it's obviously a pretty big one, and there's no evidence to suggest that any upgrades will prevent it from doing so into the foreseeable future. Look at the mothership: they obviously have a vested interest in upgrades, they make them all the time, yet this site roundly kicks its butt for viewership. We're doing something right, and it's not the upgrades that are doing it.
Considering we've never actually had much of an upgrade it's hard to say that non upgrading is to our benefit.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
Hey, guys, would it be feasible to 'get' a decent, able, and trustworthy site technician? I think a lot of bad things can be obviated by having one on board at all times and can also reduce the amount of comparatively ordinary or routine work that Hannes needs to do too around the site.
Am I just saying what's on everyone's mind now?
The rest of the thread has been, for lack of a better word, interesting to read, and I don't quite know how to respond as I feel fit just yet.
I think card popups should really be mandatory as having to link to gatherer is just archaic.
I might be responsible for that. Scry fills that niche but I'm pretty sure its existence caused card popups to drop further down on Hannes' list of priorities.
On the technical side I've seen a lot of requests for Tapatalk integration or some sort of mobile formatted version of the site. Either of these are doable after a software upgrade, but Hannes has said before that an upgrade would take a very high level of effort due to the existing customization.
Hey, guys, would it be feasible to 'get' a decent, able, and trustworthy site technician? I think a lot of bad things can be obviated by having one on board at all times and can also reduce the amount of comparatively ordinary or routine work that Hannes needs to do too around the site.
Am I just saying what's on everyone's mind now?
The rest of the thread has been, for lack of a better word, interesting to read, and I don't quite know how to respond as I feel fit just yet.
It's my understanding that "something bad happened" the last time there was a technician with high level permissions, and as a result Hannes has vetoed the suggestion ever since. Somebody with more history here can probably provide more details.
@Belgareth: Thanks That's the kind of answer I was looking for.
It's my understanding that "something bad happened" the last time there was a technician with high level permissions, and as a result Hannes has vetoed the suggestion ever since. Somebody with more history here can probably provide more details.
Was it because of the JDSki incident? It's the only one that comes to mind, unless it was "behind the scenes".
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
One man's "excuse" is another man's "final straw."
It's somewhat easier to evaluate - from a third party perspective - the removal of a staff member when it's because of a single minor incident. It's really hard to evaluate the removal of a staff member because of a long string of sustained minor incidents.
I'm not sure if that is a problem that needs to be solved. I think it's clear that it should be possible for a staff member to be removed if they have a long history of "riding the edge". The opposition to the given demodding appears to largely stem from people being unaware that Kijin was riding said edge. But I have not seen any proposals that increase awareness of such situations without causing a greater cost. For example, imagine if there was a public warning "mod X is riding the edge". It would make it less of a surprise if that mod gets de-modded 6 months later, but in the meantime that mod's ability to do his/her job would be severely eroded by what would essentially be a public vote of no-confidence. And thus the issue would just be time-shifted to an earlier point in the chain of events. This issue of confidence in the moderating staff is one of the reasons that staff self-policing needs to be a private matter in so many cases.
There has to be a point at which we simply trust the admins to do their jobs, including the job of self-policing. The exact placement of that point can be altered somewhat, but trying to push it too far back seems like it will have unintended consequences. Transparency and formality bring the benefit of limiting the potential damage by "rogue" administrators, or those simply out of touch with the site's needs - but they do so at the cost of also limiting the effectiveness and speed of administrators that are already doing their job well.
And there have been times in this sites history where that has been the case. The most recent example of this being the Azrael headed administration. However, I think clearly in this instance there has been a breakdown in self policing.
I am curious how the current Admins failed to police themselves. I don't see it, but I am also pretty entrenched so my perspective might be skewed.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I would say Ria being an alleged troll would point to a failure of policing ones selves.
To me that IS self policing. I know some wanted more or faster, but we all know that is common in all aspects of life. Are you talking about something else?
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I'm referring to how it took a ridiculous drama bomb and yelling and screaming an public shaming for this self policing to happing. I'm not so much decrying the system so much as decrying the lack of anybody on the staff having either the opinion or the voice to keep aloof coworkers grounded. I realize that the mod staff is hierarchical but this just seemed like the last conditions upon which this sort of discussion needed to be happening. While I applaud Ria for being able to remove himself, his self policing to me came at a point where the moment of self policing had passed, and the moment for plain policing had arisen. Thus the issue.
Policing takes time. If it doesn't you have bigger problems. Imagine if you called the police and within 2 seconds they showed up... it means they are either supernatural or they hang out outside your door. It's a bad analogy, but even when you are self-policing responsible individuals take a few minutes to think things over before they act.
I get the frustration on all sides. We are now down an admin for a little while, you got to witness/experience this "ridiculous drama bomb" and it's going to take a week or so to see the fruits of this tussle. But, its there. And despite some peoples' claims that we are XXXXXX we are listening and we do try to find amicable solutions.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Your last parcel of text is somewhat inspiring though, and hopefully with people like you and Sene on the task these amicable solutions will be reached, implemented, and successful.
Give me a break, Galspanic. He left a sarcastic message in his closed help-desk totally mocking this thread and Kijin. He tried to get one last shot in before removing himself from "active duty," AKA he doesn't feel like defending himself so he is just going to goof around in the mod lounge for a bit.
His hiatus means literally nothing.
If you or I said that it would be 100% sarcastic. Based on conversations before, during, and since I suspect it's not.
I haven't seen him in the mod lounge since. When we talked it was (edit: mostly) about family stuff.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Kijin's history is a bit tricky to follow unless you've been a member of this site for a really long time. There was a brief stint where he was actually demodded but then quickly remodded after that. I've been around Kijin enough to know that while he is a very knowledgeable person when it comes to Magic, his abrasive attitude got in the way a lot of times. That's not to say this is always bad. There are many people out there that just can't be talked to unless you get in their face to get the message across. There are places where that's appropriate to do (e.g. a boss trying to get across to an incompetent employee), but not so much when you're someone the rest of the community should look up to. That's how I've always viewed mods and admins. They are role models for how to conduct yourself on the site appropriately.
You know a college professor that is difficult to fire because he/she has tenure? That's basically what Kijin reminds me of -- since he has been a mod forever, he can have his tenure keep himself on the staff despite all the complaints people have made about him. The fact that he was demodded once before shows that his ability to be a competent mod has been called into question well before this incident happened.
The staff said a "culture change" has been happening behind the scenes for the mods, and I can clearly see what they're talking about. Most of the members that have been here since The Exodus have been purged from the staff (Annorax, Kijin, Caranthir, charlequin, etc.), being replaced with fresh blood. It used to be that being a mod meant being friends with the same core of OGs that have been with this community dating back to MTG News for over a decade, rather than being a mod based on merit. That is now no longer the case. Things have definitely improved quite recently, such as the site-wide issues thread to help increase transparency. Believe me when I say that I want to have more transparency. There was next to no transparency at all in the bad ol' days except for the Suspended/Banned thread.
Another thing: I'm disappointed to see both Xenphire and urzassedatives poo-poo the site and essentially proclaim, "This site is done for." Really now? Yes, I know that MTG Salvation has lasted for over seven years now. Yes, I know that seven years is a very long time especially in today's world where information travels faster than it ever has been. That being said, there are other forums out there that have not only survived, but thrived for long periods of time. A few other forums I frequent such as SRK and Smash World Forums have been active since at least 2000 and they're still very strong communities to this day! They have had their share of drama bombs and crises just like we have. They have also evolved over time as well. Why can't we do the same? We're not going to have the same types of spoilers like we did in the past, but that doesn't mean the site should roll over and die because of that.
This is fairly off topic to the matter in this thread in general, but...
It's not so much that I feel the website is kaput, as much as it lost it's identity long ago and with the quality of posts here in the sections actually pertaining to Magic being rather weak, it makes bookmarking niche websites/resources with less quantity but more quality look better. Rumor Mill threads degenerating into broken record debates, historically repeating"X card sucks" "Preorder price are stupid" etc. dribble was tiresome ages ago. The added state of it existing as nothing more than a source for regurgitating news from websites doesn't hold water in terms of value. Many people are already visiting elsewhere for the info for it to end up here so fast to begin with. Then there's what Viricide said about compiling the information here, so there's that, but even the compiled spoiler layout is extremely old and quite an eyesore. The days of the Rumor Mill being an actual Rumor Mill are long gone. Meanwhile the competitive sections are somewhat of a joke compared to other resources outside MTGS (Look at the thread in CI not too long ago about relevancy in the competitive formats). Chalk this up to other websites having pro players etc., but I'd rather read those than all the posts of people here that think they're an authority or on a pro level for going 3-1 at FNM (any arrogance aside). Hannes is MIA and the lack of social media networking can also be seen as partially responsible for being unable to find ways to fund vBulletin and website upgrades in some ways outside of advertising on the main website. There are gold mines out there to be taken advantage of that would not intrude on the user experience here yet add to it.
I don't expect the website to roll over and die, but it does feel like it's floating in limbo on a yearly cycle of inevitable staff changes that come in waves with marginal benefits for the community as a whole. Most of what happens in these threads your average user won't notice. They won't notice the difference between if Ria or Annorax or Kingcobweb or Sakabatou are admins. They won't notice if Hannes goes missing. Without reason to look deeper there's only the indirect apathy. Some people know that the place could be more exciting, and that there's more potential if it could shake the bonds of apathy and get the rest of the community more involved somehow. Even MTGNews hasn't completely died yet, albeit remaining in a state of borderline coma. As long as there's word of mouth and the human instinct to continue habitual behavior persists, there will be activity here. But that doesn't mean the forum/website itself isn't horribly out of date or that many facets of MTGS don't currently leave a lot to be desired. Where being active is concerned (and this goes for other facets of the website as well), it comes down to quality over quantity. I kept coming back here during a break from Magic extending between Ravnica up to Rise of the Eldrazi, but that doesn't mean it was for the quality of the community - it's because of familiarity and that old habits die hard. That's why a lot of people who repeatedly admit to not even playing Magic still post - Not because there's much intelligent or riveting discussion to be had, but because even when you find yourself a stranger in familiar territory, you still seek out what you know.
Now, as for the inevitable question as to what I would then suggest given my personal feelings on the direction and lack of relevancy of the website? That would take a lot of consideration, research and time on my part to compile into something presentable. As it is, I already told Sene I have no desire to have much say in what happens around here anymore (commentary in regards to forum happenings aside). I just help out where I know I can (ie. Phyrexian Mana smilies), because given the long-winded history I still care about where the website is going although not so much the politics. Why? Mostly because getting people on the internet behind a computer to admit right or wrong and put their ego aside is an exhausting process of irrelevant semantics and flip-flopping.
(Also known as Xenphire)
This is sort of an obvious response, but my question would be: can we do anything about it? There have been ideas and suggestions throughout this thread, but many of them have been off-handed comments buried inside of rants. Particularly from people like you that have a long history here and have my utmost respect, I'm curious if you think the situation is "beyond hope" so to speak.
Without Hannes, yes.
I'm not sure why you think that. Yes, Hannes' input would be nice, but the community is still growing and the site is still effecting positive changes. If nothing else, I can come come up with examples of owner interference being considered a big problem, such as on Facebook, I'm just not seeing the crisis you speak of.
I think what Madding is getting at is that a lot of the technical aspects of site improvement are outside the staff's abilities and only Hannes can implement them. If the site is to 'get with the times' and start implementing social media and other modern features, it would need to be under Hannes' direction.
Of course, I could be wrong and Madding was saying Hannes needs to come in and whip the staff into shape somehow, but I don't think that's it.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Edit: Yes, Mikey understood. Over the years the constant words have been, "We could do X, but first Hannes needs to do Y, do Z, etc."
Now, as to the question of if we actually need to do any upgrading? Guess that is just personal preference.
Considering we've never actually had much of an upgrade it's hard to say that non upgrading is to our benefit.
Am I just saying what's on everyone's mind now?
The rest of the thread has been, for lack of a better word, interesting to read, and I don't quite know how to respond as I feel fit just yet.
— jean-baptiste alphonse karr, les guêpes (1849)
wiki subforum @ mtgs forums * mtgs wiki * site rules
I might be responsible for that. Scry fills that niche but I'm pretty sure its existence caused card popups to drop further down on Hannes' list of priorities.
On the technical side I've seen a lot of requests for Tapatalk integration or some sort of mobile formatted version of the site. Either of these are doable after a software upgrade, but Hannes has said before that an upgrade would take a very high level of effort due to the existing customization.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
Magic CompRules
Scry Rollover Popups for Google Chrome
The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
It's my understanding that "something bad happened" the last time there was a technician with high level permissions, and as a result Hannes has vetoed the suggestion ever since. Somebody with more history here can probably provide more details.
@Belgareth: Thanks That's the kind of answer I was looking for.