I personally like the tone of mtgs as it gives you a better flavor of the community at large. Since, for the most part, this game is not played at a competitive level. (There are more casuals, not to say that competitive isn't important)
There are a few things that typically cause problems in the forums however:
1. People like to think that they are right and when they are challenged on their stance they will argue for it. (only a net negative when they do it in a disrespectful manner or disrupt the discussion of the thread)
2. Some people have large "internet egos." This leads to conflict as they want to act like the cool kid who has the power to bully people. ("Hey man this deck sux")
3. Casual v.s. competitive crowd often bump heads.
Luckily the moderation here is better than most websites I've been to and on average users generally tend to be helpful and courteous.
Overall, I don't think that there's much to complain about in terms of the "rep" of the site. It is what it is and I for one like the way it currently operates.
I've read through the reactions to the issue and everyone keeps saying "citations needed" or whatever but its honestly something so prevalent I didn't think I would actually have to point it out to anyone. Here is an example from five minutes ago but I have seen it tons of times.
Ill take two examples from today as my "citations" but honestly anyone here can click on 1-3 threads (depending on the specific subforum) and see exactly what the problem is.
I found this one particularly funny because it was a PM, in response to my attempts to explain why huntmaster does not have a home in the traditional G/R werewolf aggro deck. There were about 100 useless youtube quality post telling me why I was totally wrong and it is a four of in every deck ever, but the fact I got a pm from one poster because he really wanted to let me know how much of a downer I was for being semi-realistic in the card discussion forum drives home my point about posting quality on this site.
Here we have a reasonable core concept even if its not that great but something with refining I think could be a fun FNM deck. With no ill intention I try to help him out as best as I can. While I do have pro points and results anyone could notice some of the glaring holes and issues with the proposed deck.
The OP contained "Ideas where to take this next?" I gave what I thought was very good advice while still respecting what the OP wanted to do with the deck. I could say "oblitarator is for the kitchen table" or something like that and probably be right but instead I put forth my best effort into helping the OP create what he wanted.
Instead of a logical reply I get "THANKS FOR THE SPAM!!1!" get told a near "god hand" line of play is a reasonable one and critique of a very poor card choice is taken as a personal insult.
The best/worst part... The poster has over 1000+ posts and is how I would describe your typical "salvation regular"
Take this example for what you will but it happens so so often, I see it in nearly every single topic. It isnt a personal thing because I have heard it from many legitimate "pros" at GPs and such. I see it in threads I try to contribute to but in many I just casually browse before I even get to the second page, and while the solution isnt clear I think its a really big issue "long-term" for both the quality of the forums and the quality of information and contributions here.
I'm not saying I have all the answers and make the correct choice every time, but I do know when an idea is bad. When I don't know an answer and provide an opinion backed up with logic or statistics I want the rebuttal to have logic/stats involved, so I can reevaluate my evaluation. The fact of the matter is this just doesn't happen instead you just get people saying well "I dont like playing titans!!!" instead of anything remotely resembling logic.
Trying to find a good refined decklist or a well thought out card choice discussion is very difficult and it only gets worse. As someone who has read the forums for a long time and used it as a primary resource for much of my early magic career it saddens me to come back in see it in such a state... Now that I have gotten to the point where I feel like I have enough "magic achievements" (hahaah I know) to contribute back its ridiculously frustrating, and im finding that some of those hidden nuggets of information I mined a long time ago probably dont exist anymore or are buried under a impenetrable mountain of bad posts.
I've read through the reactions to the issue and everyone keeps saying "citations needed" or whatever but its honestly something so prevalent I didn't think I would actually have to point it out to anyone. Here is an example from five minutes ago but I have seen it tons of times.
The issue you're talking about is something I experience IRL as well. When we sit around and talk at the LGS, people ask me my opinion of cards, decks, etc... But they're not really looking for my opinion. They just want me to tell them that they're right and that their Deadly Allure/Obliterator deck is totally awesome and is going to be the next big thing.
Obviously it's not, but more importantly, they don't really listen unless I tell them exactly what they want to hear.
In real life, I have a simple solution to that: 1) tell them to stop asking my opinion if they don't actually want it, 2) when that doesn't work: ignore them generally, and agree with them if they persist. They play their terrible deck and get stomped and don't learn anything.
Here, there are plenty of other terribles that tell them they're super awesome and a thread spirals out of control. Look at the BW token thread where Champion of the Parish was in most people's list. You know, because a token deck cares about early pressure.
They propose terrible ideas, don't test, then get upset when you point out how bad their ideas are. Lather, rinse, repeat. I don't know how you fix that unless you infract for stupid.
I've read through the reactions to the issue and everyone keeps saying "citations needed" or whatever but its honestly something so prevalent I didn't think I would actually have to point it out to anyone. Here is an example from five minutes ago but I have seen it tons of times.
Ill take two examples from today as my "citations" but honestly anyone here can click on 1-3 threads (depending on the specific subforum) and see exactly what the problem is.
*snip*
I found this one particularly funny because it was a PM, in response to my attempts to explain why huntmaster does not have a home in the traditional G/R werewolf aggro deck. There were about 100 useless youtube quality post telling me why I was totally wrong and it is a four of in every deck ever, but the fact I got a pm from one poster because he really wanted to let me know how much of a downer I was for being semi-realistic in the card discussion forum drives home my point about posting quality on this site.
*snip*
Here we have a reasonable core concept even if its not that great but something with refining I think could be a fun FNM deck. With no ill intention I try to help him out as best as I can. While I do have pro points and results anyone could notice some of the glaring holes and issues with the proposed deck.
The OP contained "Ideas where to take this next?" I gave what I thought was very good advice while still respecting what the OP wanted to do with the deck. I could say "oblitarator is for the kitchen table" or something like that and probably be right but instead I put forth my best effort into helping the OP create what he wanted.
Instead of a logical reply I get "THANKS FOR THE SPAM!!1!" get told a near "god hand" line of play is a reasonable one and critique of a very poor card choice is taken as a personal insult.
The best/worst part... The poster has over 1000+ posts and is how I would describe your typical "salvation regular"
Take this example for what you will but it happens so so often, I see it in nearly every single topic. It isnt a personal thing because I have heard it from many legitimate "pros" at GPs and such. I see it in threads I try to contribute to but in many I just casually browse before I even get to the second page, and while the solution isnt clear I think its a really big issue "long-term" for both the quality of the forums and the quality of information and contributions here.
Trying to find a good refined decklist or a well thought out card choice discussion is increasing
Ummmm... I just saw someone disagreeing with you dudebro. Is there any chance that this rant you are on stems from some sense of entitlement you have to be the grand keeper of the newest bestest tech?
I'm going to have to stick up for dudebro on this one.
I post primarily in the budget subforum of standard, and if that isn't a casual crowd, I don't know what is.
dudebro has spent a lot of time there helping many people out. Heck, he spent a great deal of time helping me to develop a red deck that has over 100 posts and 7k views. (that's a lot for budget, we are a very small group of people on mtgs). I have never observed him troll or flame anyone.
So I doubt he is a "pro" giving attitude to "casual" players. More than likely he is telling people the truth, and they are getting upset because it's their pet deck or w/e. Doesn't take much these days to offend people.
I think this is why MTGS has separate forums for casual and competitive. They don't seem to mix well.
This entire thread is sadly proof in its own right. The fact it actually needs to exist kinda already places the damning stake into the body. At this point its better to accept it and move on and do what the SITE wants to do or piss and moan that so called "pros" dont accept this place vocally.
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Ummmm... I just saw someone disagreeing with you dudebro. Is there any chance that this rant you are on stems from some sense of entitlement you have to be the grand keeper of the newest bestest tech?
lol. where do you come up with this stuff? you're the one projecting onto dudebro. he doesn't have a sense of entitlement or anything like that. maybe you do though. are you feeling entitled to be coddled and not have to read harsh criticism of bad ideas?
dudebro posted some concrete examples of low quality posters basically reacting defensively, being hostile to him, and not accepting his good advice. that wasn't just a disagreement. dudebro made realistic suggestions for improving the deck idea. his counterparts made nonsensical arguments in defense of their bad idea and also took it as a personal insult. dudebro is 100% in the right here.
lol. where do you come up with this stuff? you're the one projecting onto dudebro. he doesn't have a sense of entitlement or anything like that. maybe you do though. are you feeling entitled to be coddled and not have to read harsh criticism of bad ideas?
dudebro posted some concrete examples of low quality posters basically reacting defensively, being hostile to him, and not accepting his good advice. that wasn't just a disagreement. dudebro made realistic suggestions for improving the deck idea. his counterparts made nonsensical arguments in defense of their bad idea and also took it as a personal insult. dudebro is 100% in the right here.
That's really not how I read it sorry. The OP was looking for suggestions to develop an infant deck idea, dudebro offered alternatives (good alternatives agreed but besides the point), the OP rejected the alternatives because they moved him too far off the central deck concept/strategy and then things escalated with claims of godhands with a variety of conjecture and hyperbole flying both ways. Because you, or I, agree that the ideas were good or bad doesn't make his hypothesis that the whining scrub collective of the community is scaring off the pro contingent and that somehow they need to be cracked down on correct. It's divisive and ultimately counter-productive IMO.
Not many people here give a crap about professional magic players, much less their opinions. This is a community, offering more variety and volume than tcgplayer, channelfireball, manadeprived, scg, etc.
People already know where to go for professional commentary...and it's not here.
Perhaps you would have better results if you start your own threads and ask that only professionals and/or aspiring professionals reply...?
I'd disagree here. About a month ago, I created a variant of U/W Humans, in which I went with a more defensive build. It didn't lack the aggression common of the archtype, but by removing Champion of the Parish and Mana Leak and putting in Invisible Stalker and Vapor Snag/Disperse I had two or three people say I was a "bad player".
Part of the reason I was told it was a bad idea was because Stalker doesn't "win the game" by himself. Members of the community said "CotP is much better in that place", but those died down altogether when Craid Wescoe said, "You know what? He sucks." In fact, one of the people who came into my deck variant thread said the following:
Quote from RPD41 »
Stalker is cool but he'd fit best in a puresteel equipment type deck where you could load him up with swords/daggers and just beat all day. I don't really think he fits UW humans, doesnt have any utility and doesnt do enough damage by himself.
Now while I would agree, none of the cards in the deck, save Geis tof Saint Traft really "win by themselves. Most are 1/1's, and thus weak creatures. Now keep in mind, my deck runs Swords and Angelics, and I was told this was a bad variant because I opted for a 1/1 with Unblockable and Hexproof for two. Apparently, he's good in U/w Tempo though, even though I was running more ways to pump him.
What I'm trying to say is that I agree with the OP in a sense. A lot of people on here run to this site for deck ideas, and it's not uncommon to see people at either one of the metas I play at whip out one of the decks I see on here. Yes, I run variants of common deck themes, but my decks have always had tweaks that people have noticed. My U/W Humans deck was one such variant I found to be very effective at doing the job.
I personally don't care about pros and if they like this site or not. What I do care about is people quoting pros without giving their own reasoning. *Shrugs*
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i actually like this sites casual section..i play only casual....so thats where i spend most of my time..in the casual forum...thanks to said casual forum my Black/Red Dragon deck is even more beast than it was before i came here for help...OP needs to calm down and take a look at the bigger picture...i mean yeah..someone might tell me my deck sucks and im using bad cards..that is that persons opinion....i look at all opinions when i ask for deck help...if you dont like my deck..thats cool...its advice either way....thats how i look at it....i see alot of raging going on with people with opinions like his....i dont see the point in any of what he said....its all just bad karma towards the site if you ask me....i think the inferno titan is crap...the dragon is much better in my opinion...so what?....dont come in here and badmouth the site and ppl on in just cuase they dont do things the way you want them done...i agree with whoever said "if you dont like the site, find a new one"...dont criticize people for doing what you are doing in your OP....very hypocritical...
I've actually run into a lot of the same frustration as Dudebro, and can really sympathize. I try to accept it and not flame too much when I see something that rubs me the wrong way. Although I will say, I can flame with the best of them when I see random noob post unsleeved.dec as a suggestion to something I'm trying to build competitively and have definitely had my share of infractions for doing so.
The problem is that for this to be a really open environment, you're just going to have to deal with it sometimes. It's inevitable that you're going to have to sift through 100 bad ideas from every person who thinks that Sphinx Bone Wand is the best thing since sliced bread before you find the one good idea from the person who's been here a while. Occasionally though, that 1 idea in the 100 is the one that pushes your strategy over the top. I think the greatest cause is that you're probably like me in that you love to brew, but brew with the goal of playing your own deck competitively. People who have been in the game for a number of years and have the experience can do this and tend to do well with it. Honestly I think I've won more tournaments with decks I brewed 10 minutes before than I have playing Tier 1 or Tier 2 strategies.
The only solution I can see is that there really needs to be a development forum dedicated to competitive. Right now, there's competitive forums, but they only showcase decks that are established and don't necessarily help deck brewers like you or me. I think there should be a forum that's open for new deck ideas that follows competitive deck rules (and is heavily moderated for enforcement) to make sure that people like you and I don't end up losing our tempers at the people suggesting that we play Darksteel Relic.
Let those who want to play bad cards keep SDC, give me a Competitive Deck Creation.
I'd also love a No-Holds-Barred (Flaming permitted) section too, but I doubt that one would work. Competitive Deck Creation sounds pretty reasonable though.
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For most players this site is all about the Rumor Mill during spoiler season and that's it. I personally find value in the EDH forums, the competitive Block forum (which isn't very active but has much more discussion then any other site I've found), and of course the altered art thread. This site has found it's niche in the community and seems to be doing welll, I don't see any reason to change it at this point.
I could go on but ill stop myself and say that these issues have really hurt the salvation forums in the eyes of many of the grinders that could really contribute alot to the forum. I don't know if there is any easy fix and maybe everyone should take a second and step back and start using more logic, and not misrepresent choices. IF its made for casual play just say it, IF a card choice was made with budget options in mind also say it, dont try to defend unoptimized decks just say its a pile.
Others have stated my response already, but I want to address this briefly. The problems, often are in the fact that much of the time:
(anecdotally) the "grinders" are pretty blunt, to the point of being rude. They often excuse this with some sort of "Hey, we are playing a competitive game, not a cooperative hug-fest." Or, "I am trying to tell you how to make your deck better, not make friends." The desire for efficiency and deck improvement does not have to me mutually exclusive with tact and manners.
The sense I get from "grinders" is that there are only two types of decks: bad decks (or piles), and optimized decks. The polarization puts 99% of decks in the "pile" category without any attempt at finding a place for it somewhere in between. This completely dismisses any other reason for card inclusion and tend to make people defensive.
"Grinders" seem to automatically discount ANY new idea out of habit. I am of the opinion that very few cards are fit for competitive play but not to the extreme I see from some, and dismissal outright (without any thought or testing) is pretty ignorant.
Many of the folks I would identify as "grinders" here (and on WotC forums) have a tendency to only post with negative comments. There are a few posters that every time I see their name I can reliably guess that they will be tearing apart a deck or opinion, and being patronizing about it. If the only thing that inspires you to comment is when you feel you can show someone that they are wrong or an idiot, then frankly you have NO value to the community. Take a moment and look up the idea of "constructive criticism" and then think about whether you are in fact adding anything to the conversation.
I also want to ask what forums have a better reputation among the so-called pro players? Who are these Pro players? I have not read all the posts yet, so forgive me if this information has been provided.
Calarification: I have never read any of the OP's other posts at this time, so I am not talking about him in particular- rather I refer to others that display behaviors that I associate with the "grinder" gamer type.
We are too strict about perceived advertising. We discourage people from trying to promote their blog, webcast, store, or any other thing that is actually integral to the magic community. This site becomes an isolated little island because of this. We need to make a better effort to become part of the global magic network and this means letting people promote their own stuff (within reason, spam should still be infracted).
I disagree with this quite a bit. I think it adds to the noise and chaff when someone I have never heard of, and has 5 posts to his name, appears in General and tells everyone to go to his site/blog. We have made decisions to come here for discussions on this site, not to be spammed about some new site/blog run by unknowns.
The past few posts also made me realize that rules against double posting -aside from posts made to spam and bump threads- don't make any sense. YES people can edit posts, and should be encouraged to, but if someone doesn't, it isn't the end of the world.
A moderator can merge a post VERY easily.
Double posts do not inhibit the community's ability to communicate with each other and interact. Moderating them does more harm than good.
I could not agree with this more. Double Post was the first warning I got here and I was pretty confused. I was making a new point regarding a new quote, and it had been several minutes since I made the original post. I see the reason for minimizing it, but the "slap on the hand" is a little be jarring and non-sensical. Warning should be given when someone is abusively making double posts, not every time it occurs.
Let bad players with bad opinions be called such rather than holding their hands and assuring them that their opinions are valued contributions to the discussion. Letting idiots be called out as idiots won't solve the matter, but it is a step in the right direction.
Who are you to decide who are the idiots? To quote an ancient sage: We may be different from the rest,
but who decides the test?
The one who's really best?
Idiocy and "wrongness" is often very subjective, and relative to the endgame.
Thank you so much for digging up proof!
The 'MTGS god hand complex' is something that should be considered spam at this point.
It is the worst post that is continually made on the forums.
I agree with this also, and it drives me nuts. Each deck archetype raves about it's match-up with deck X and when I find I am having differing results and post them the response is something like, "I don't see why you would have problems with X, all you have to do is get "a" down on turn one, and then "b" and "c" before turn four. That match-up is pretty easy." It drives me nuts, and creates a archetype thread that becomes useless for it's intended purpose.
Who are you to decide who are the idiots? To quote an ancient sage: We may be different from the rest,
but who decides the test?
The one who's really best?
That's an easy question to answer.
Hard data.
If you're going to insist that card X or strategy Y works, then present the tournament results proving it, or the mathematical analysis proving it, or the input of top rank players who share the same opinion.
The topic, after all, is HOW TO BE MORE RELEVANT TO COMPETITIVE PLAYERS.
Please, read the sentence above carefully, because the way you responded makes me think that you think I think that casual players are idiots. It is when somebody _insists_ that X is competitive or behavior Y is wrong but can't prove it -- that's an idiot.
I find it odd (if not downright hypocritical) that you're complaining about "who are you to judge what is right or wrong" when the general forums and watercooler is full of people doing just exactly that -- people saying behavior X or Y is wrong, if not downright immoral. "Ohh, player A did this! That is not acceptable human behavior! They should stop thinking about themselves for once!" Apparently to you, calling some players disgusting/scum/cheaters/pedophiles/will cause the death of the game/neckbeards is perfectly fine, but it's not ok to call bad ideas idiotic.
I'm a player in love with Casual, and who is just downright competitive the moment he sees even the smallest tournament.
So, a question...
if nobody ever plays anything except what a professional makes...where do the pros get their decks...?
So, both sides here:
Casual players- Accept that your decks may get bad critiques sometimes, and please stop insisting that Furyborn Hellkite is the greatest possible turn-1 drop in Standard. It's incredibly fun casual, incredibly BAD competitively. Everyone understands that stance, for the most part, and not all competitive players should be treated like dirt. If they want to play mage blade? Well, why shouldn't they? It's winning! Have your fun, let them have theirs.
Competitive freaks: Not all competitive players are hardasses to the casual players, and I have found many of you to be incredibly courteous, so I don't really see the drama here. Just remember, though, rogue decks are what makes magic. Every deck was a rogue deck at one point, there are just a few that have really shined.
I just don't see an issue here o.o Both sides should be able to get along easily. I mean, hey, both sides ADORE Dark Ritual =D
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If you're going to insist that card X or strategy Y works, then present the tournament results proving it, or the mathematical analysis proving it, or the input of top rank players who share the same opinion.
No card is a tournament staple until it is. People have this horrid habit of mentally classifying cards as "bad" and then figuring they don't fit into any deck at all. If someone is actually suggesting Darksteel Relic, they probably have a reason. It's likely an insane one; but you might as well give others the benefit of doubt, instead of automatically dismissing opinions because they revolve around a bad card.
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On average, Magic players are worse at new card evaluation than almost every other skill, except perhaps sideboarding.
I see two important things being said in this thread:
1. "Pros" don't care for us -- I don't think this is relevant. Far more Magic players are not "Pros" than are, and if you are a professional Magic player, why aren't you writing articles, or guiding Magic in a more constructive, grand scale than telling some faceless nobody on MTGSalvation's Rumor Mill that he sucks and that all his creatures die to removal and therefore he shouldn't play Magic ever? The distinction here is the assumption that your opinion is automatically valid because the apparent status of another poster's is wrong. I've seen posters say one idea was bad, only to then suggest another, similarly bad idea.
2. We are a community of idiots who resist change -- I find it funny that this point was made in a thread of people replying with "I think X is fine the way it is," or "That's just, like, your opinion, man," or proposing minor changes within adding/subtracting from rules. The issue with this is that being a community of idiots who are resistant to change is an intrinsic quality, it's not something you can remove through individual moderation, and exists as a constant of the posters that make a community up. How can you be surprised that this community persists if it does in fact represent a community of idiots who are resistant to change?
A third point has been brought up, that the Magic world is growing beyond boards with walls of text, avatar/art contests, and "CREATE A CARD!" However, the day-to-day staff permissions are not sufficient to potentially grow the capabilities of MTGS in any meaningful way, and that's a more involved discussion that would also likely involve our site owner. I think it's a meaningful discussion, but we're slow to implement that kind of change traditionally and I don't expect roots to take with any kind of haste.
If point two is in any way valid, the change may be prodded by Staff, but needs to come from within the overwhelming user population. A horse can be led to water, but you can't make him drink. The same, I would assume, is true of tens of thousands of horses.
There are a few things that typically cause problems in the forums however:
1. People like to think that they are right and when they are challenged on their stance they will argue for it. (only a net negative when they do it in a disrespectful manner or disrupt the discussion of the thread)
2. Some people have large "internet egos." This leads to conflict as they want to act like the cool kid who has the power to bully people. ("Hey man this deck sux")
3. Casual v.s. competitive crowd often bump heads.
Luckily the moderation here is better than most websites I've been to and on average users generally tend to be helpful and courteous.
Overall, I don't think that there's much to complain about in terms of the "rep" of the site. It is what it is and I for one like the way it currently operates.
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!
Ill take two examples from today as my "citations" but honestly anyone here can click on 1-3 threads (depending on the specific subforum) and see exactly what the problem is.
I found this one particularly funny because it was a PM, in response to my attempts to explain why huntmaster does not have a home in the traditional G/R werewolf aggro deck. There were about 100 useless youtube quality post telling me why I was totally wrong and it is a four of in every deck ever, but the fact I got a pm from one poster because he really wanted to let me know how much of a downer I was for being semi-realistic in the card discussion forum drives home my point about posting quality on this site.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=385911
Here we have a reasonable core concept even if its not that great but something with refining I think could be a fun FNM deck. With no ill intention I try to help him out as best as I can. While I do have pro points and results anyone could notice some of the glaring holes and issues with the proposed deck.
The OP contained "Ideas where to take this next?" I gave what I thought was very good advice while still respecting what the OP wanted to do with the deck. I could say "oblitarator is for the kitchen table" or something like that and probably be right but instead I put forth my best effort into helping the OP create what he wanted.
Instead of a logical reply I get "THANKS FOR THE SPAM!!1!" get told a near "god hand" line of play is a reasonable one and critique of a very poor card choice is taken as a personal insult.
The best/worst part... The poster has over 1000+ posts and is how I would describe your typical "salvation regular"
Take this example for what you will but it happens so so often, I see it in nearly every single topic. It isnt a personal thing because I have heard it from many legitimate "pros" at GPs and such. I see it in threads I try to contribute to but in many I just casually browse before I even get to the second page, and while the solution isnt clear I think its a really big issue "long-term" for both the quality of the forums and the quality of information and contributions here.
I'm not saying I have all the answers and make the correct choice every time, but I do know when an idea is bad. When I don't know an answer and provide an opinion backed up with logic or statistics I want the rebuttal to have logic/stats involved, so I can reevaluate my evaluation. The fact of the matter is this just doesn't happen instead you just get people saying well "I dont like playing titans!!!" instead of anything remotely resembling logic.
Trying to find a good refined decklist or a well thought out card choice discussion is very difficult and it only gets worse. As someone who has read the forums for a long time and used it as a primary resource for much of my early magic career it saddens me to come back in see it in such a state... Now that I have gotten to the point where I feel like I have enough "magic achievements" (hahaah I know) to contribute back its ridiculously frustrating, and im finding that some of those hidden nuggets of information I mined a long time ago probably dont exist anymore or are buried under a impenetrable mountain of bad posts.
The 'MTGS god hand complex' is something that should be considered spam at this point.
It is the worst post that is continually made on the forums.
Twitter
The issue you're talking about is something I experience IRL as well. When we sit around and talk at the LGS, people ask me my opinion of cards, decks, etc... But they're not really looking for my opinion. They just want me to tell them that they're right and that their Deadly Allure/Obliterator deck is totally awesome and is going to be the next big thing.
Obviously it's not, but more importantly, they don't really listen unless I tell them exactly what they want to hear.
In real life, I have a simple solution to that: 1) tell them to stop asking my opinion if they don't actually want it, 2) when that doesn't work: ignore them generally, and agree with them if they persist. They play their terrible deck and get stomped and don't learn anything.
Here, there are plenty of other terribles that tell them they're super awesome and a thread spirals out of control. Look at the BW token thread where Champion of the Parish was in most people's list. You know, because a token deck cares about early pressure.
They propose terrible ideas, don't test, then get upset when you point out how bad their ideas are. Lather, rinse, repeat. I don't know how you fix that unless you infract for stupid.
Ummmm... I just saw someone disagreeing with you dudebro. Is there any chance that this rant you are on stems from some sense of entitlement you have to be the grand keeper of the newest bestest tech?
Tiamat, Chromatic Dragon RWUBG
Planeswalker - Tiamat
[+1] Sit on Nicol Bolas
[+0] Wait for him to beg for mercy, rule the multiverse.
[-7] Not necessary, she is the ultimate.
I post primarily in the budget subforum of standard, and if that isn't a casual crowd, I don't know what is.
dudebro has spent a lot of time there helping many people out. Heck, he spent a great deal of time helping me to develop a red deck that has over 100 posts and 7k views. (that's a lot for budget, we are a very small group of people on mtgs). I have never observed him troll or flame anyone.
So I doubt he is a "pro" giving attitude to "casual" players. More than likely he is telling people the truth, and they are getting upset because it's their pet deck or w/e. Doesn't take much these days to offend people.
I think this is why MTGS has separate forums for casual and competitive. They don't seem to mix well.
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lol. where do you come up with this stuff? you're the one projecting onto dudebro. he doesn't have a sense of entitlement or anything like that. maybe you do though. are you feeling entitled to be coddled and not have to read harsh criticism of bad ideas?
dudebro posted some concrete examples of low quality posters basically reacting defensively, being hostile to him, and not accepting his good advice. that wasn't just a disagreement. dudebro made realistic suggestions for improving the deck idea. his counterparts made nonsensical arguments in defense of their bad idea and also took it as a personal insult. dudebro is 100% in the right here.
That's really not how I read it sorry. The OP was looking for suggestions to develop an infant deck idea, dudebro offered alternatives (good alternatives agreed but besides the point), the OP rejected the alternatives because they moved him too far off the central deck concept/strategy and then things escalated with claims of godhands with a variety of conjecture and hyperbole flying both ways. Because you, or I, agree that the ideas were good or bad doesn't make his hypothesis that the whining scrub collective of the community is scaring off the pro contingent and that somehow they need to be cracked down on correct. It's divisive and ultimately counter-productive IMO.
Tiamat, Chromatic Dragon RWUBG
Planeswalker - Tiamat
[+1] Sit on Nicol Bolas
[+0] Wait for him to beg for mercy, rule the multiverse.
[-7] Not necessary, she is the ultimate.
I'd disagree here. About a month ago, I created a variant of U/W Humans, in which I went with a more defensive build. It didn't lack the aggression common of the archtype, but by removing Champion of the Parish and Mana Leak and putting in Invisible Stalker and Vapor Snag/Disperse I had two or three people say I was a "bad player".
Part of the reason I was told it was a bad idea was because Stalker doesn't "win the game" by himself. Members of the community said "CotP is much better in that place", but those died down altogether when Craid Wescoe said, "You know what? He sucks." In fact, one of the people who came into my deck variant thread said the following:
Now while I would agree, none of the cards in the deck, save Geis tof Saint Traft really "win by themselves. Most are 1/1's, and thus weak creatures. Now keep in mind, my deck runs Swords and Angelics, and I was told this was a bad variant because I opted for a 1/1 with Unblockable and Hexproof for two. Apparently, he's good in U/w Tempo though, even though I was running more ways to pump him.
What I'm trying to say is that I agree with the OP in a sense. A lot of people on here run to this site for deck ideas, and it's not uncommon to see people at either one of the metas I play at whip out one of the decks I see on here. Yes, I run variants of common deck themes, but my decks have always had tweaks that people have noticed. My U/W Humans deck was one such variant I found to be very effective at doing the job.
I personally don't care about pros and if they like this site or not. What I do care about is people quoting pros without giving their own reasoning. *Shrugs*
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"Peace through superior firepower."
How does Geist win by itself? It dies almost always when blocked without help from other cards like HotP, destiny, or equipment.
But yeah, good points.
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The problem is that for this to be a really open environment, you're just going to have to deal with it sometimes. It's inevitable that you're going to have to sift through 100 bad ideas from every person who thinks that Sphinx Bone Wand is the best thing since sliced bread before you find the one good idea from the person who's been here a while. Occasionally though, that 1 idea in the 100 is the one that pushes your strategy over the top. I think the greatest cause is that you're probably like me in that you love to brew, but brew with the goal of playing your own deck competitively. People who have been in the game for a number of years and have the experience can do this and tend to do well with it. Honestly I think I've won more tournaments with decks I brewed 10 minutes before than I have playing Tier 1 or Tier 2 strategies.
The only solution I can see is that there really needs to be a development forum dedicated to competitive. Right now, there's competitive forums, but they only showcase decks that are established and don't necessarily help deck brewers like you or me. I think there should be a forum that's open for new deck ideas that follows competitive deck rules (and is heavily moderated for enforcement) to make sure that people like you and I don't end up losing our tempers at the people suggesting that we play Darksteel Relic.
Let those who want to play bad cards keep SDC, give me a Competitive Deck Creation.
I'd also love a No-Holds-Barred (Flaming permitted) section too, but I doubt that one would work. Competitive Deck Creation sounds pretty reasonable though.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
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Calarification: I have never read any of the OP's other posts at this time, so I am not talking about him in particular- rather I refer to others that display behaviors that I associate with the "grinder" gamer type.
I disagree with this quite a bit. I think it adds to the noise and chaff when someone I have never heard of, and has 5 posts to his name, appears in General and tells everyone to go to his site/blog. We have made decisions to come here for discussions on this site, not to be spammed about some new site/blog run by unknowns.
I could not agree with this more. Double Post was the first warning I got here and I was pretty confused. I was making a new point regarding a new quote, and it had been several minutes since I made the original post. I see the reason for minimizing it, but the "slap on the hand" is a little be jarring and non-sensical. Warning should be given when someone is abusively making double posts, not every time it occurs.
Who are you to decide who are the idiots? To quote an ancient sage:
We may be different from the rest,
but who decides the test?
The one who's really best?
Idiocy and "wrongness" is often very subjective, and relative to the endgame.
I agree with this also, and it drives me nuts. Each deck archetype raves about it's match-up with deck X and when I find I am having differing results and post them the response is something like, "I don't see why you would have problems with X, all you have to do is get "a" down on turn one, and then "b" and "c" before turn four. That match-up is pretty easy." It drives me nuts, and creates a archetype thread that becomes useless for it's intended purpose.
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PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Hard data.
If you're going to insist that card X or strategy Y works, then present the tournament results proving it, or the mathematical analysis proving it, or the input of top rank players who share the same opinion.
The topic, after all, is HOW TO BE MORE RELEVANT TO COMPETITIVE PLAYERS.
Please, read the sentence above carefully, because the way you responded makes me think that you think I think that casual players are idiots. It is when somebody _insists_ that X is competitive or behavior Y is wrong but can't prove it -- that's an idiot.
I find it odd (if not downright hypocritical) that you're complaining about "who are you to judge what is right or wrong" when the general forums and watercooler is full of people doing just exactly that -- people saying behavior X or Y is wrong, if not downright immoral. "Ohh, player A did this! That is not acceptable human behavior! They should stop thinking about themselves for once!" Apparently to you, calling some players disgusting/scum/cheaters/pedophiles/will cause the death of the game/neckbeards is perfectly fine, but it's not ok to call bad ideas idiotic.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
So, a question...
if nobody ever plays anything except what a professional makes...where do the pros get their decks...?
So, both sides here:
Casual players- Accept that your decks may get bad critiques sometimes, and please stop insisting that Furyborn Hellkite is the greatest possible turn-1 drop in Standard. It's incredibly fun casual, incredibly BAD competitively. Everyone understands that stance, for the most part, and not all competitive players should be treated like dirt. If they want to play mage blade? Well, why shouldn't they? It's winning! Have your fun, let them have theirs.
Competitive freaks: Not all competitive players are hardasses to the casual players, and I have found many of you to be incredibly courteous, so I don't really see the drama here. Just remember, though, rogue decks are what makes magic. Every deck was a rogue deck at one point, there are just a few that have really shined.
I just don't see an issue here o.o Both sides should be able to get along easily. I mean, hey, both sides ADORE Dark Ritual =D
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today i learned people on the internet have different opinions!
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Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
That was incredibly enlightening. Teach me, sensei *bows*
no, but seriously, that's the whole point here <<
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this site is awesome: or how i leanred to jettison my autocracy and love differing views
i vascillate between those two perspectives
i like that he himself scarequoted "pro"s
A+ thread would read again
No card is a tournament staple until it is. People have this horrid habit of mentally classifying cards as "bad" and then figuring they don't fit into any deck at all. If someone is actually suggesting Darksteel Relic, they probably have a reason. It's likely an insane one; but you might as well give others the benefit of doubt, instead of automatically dismissing opinions because they revolve around a bad card.
1. "Pros" don't care for us -- I don't think this is relevant. Far more Magic players are not "Pros" than are, and if you are a professional Magic player, why aren't you writing articles, or guiding Magic in a more constructive, grand scale than telling some faceless nobody on MTGSalvation's Rumor Mill that he sucks and that all his creatures die to removal and therefore he shouldn't play Magic ever? The distinction here is the assumption that your opinion is automatically valid because the apparent status of another poster's is wrong. I've seen posters say one idea was bad, only to then suggest another, similarly bad idea.
2. We are a community of idiots who resist change -- I find it funny that this point was made in a thread of people replying with "I think X is fine the way it is," or "That's just, like, your opinion, man," or proposing minor changes within adding/subtracting from rules. The issue with this is that being a community of idiots who are resistant to change is an intrinsic quality, it's not something you can remove through individual moderation, and exists as a constant of the posters that make a community up. How can you be surprised that this community persists if it does in fact represent a community of idiots who are resistant to change?
A third point has been brought up, that the Magic world is growing beyond boards with walls of text, avatar/art contests, and "CREATE A CARD!" However, the day-to-day staff permissions are not sufficient to potentially grow the capabilities of MTGS in any meaningful way, and that's a more involved discussion that would also likely involve our site owner. I think it's a meaningful discussion, but we're slow to implement that kind of change traditionally and I don't expect roots to take with any kind of haste.
If point two is in any way valid, the change may be prodded by Staff, but needs to come from within the overwhelming user population. A horse can be led to water, but you can't make him drink. The same, I would assume, is true of tens of thousands of horses.
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