In reading a recent thread i came upon these infractions:
Backseat Modding: This is completely inappropriate. Also, How dare you use this attitude? Your sarcasm and pettiness is astounding. Infraction Issued.
Infraction seconded... this is way out of line.
I will not tolerate open disrespect to the mods. Your attitude is a form of misbehavior and is infractable. Giving props to another member who was disrespectful is also inappropriate. Infraction issued.
Infraction seconded. MD, stop acting like a jerk.
So what you are saying is that you will openly disobey us? Not only will you disobey, but you are going to continue to disrespect us?
Seriously. I don't think you get it. Your sarcasm is innappropriate. You've been warned earlier. You saw MD get infracted. Want to try for a third infraction?
Whereas, something of a similar vein of posting, such as:
I don't quite understand the picture, but I'm guessing it's another unnecessary bit of immaturity.
Which is also a blatant lack of respect that was totally ignored.
So, this kinda raised a question for me, i was checking the Forum rules, and the closest rulings i could find being broken, were:
Spam: 3. Represents a willful attempt to act as a general nuisance to the community as a whole.
Flaming: a MALICIOUS attack upon another member.
Now, i agree that being disrespectful as a whole is moderately annoying, and probably not entirely in the best interest of the forum, but it DOES have its place, and im not speaking of the place that should not be named. And as one of the infractions state "your Sarcasm is inappropriate". Now, if the sarcasm isnt precisely malicious or hateful, then its not flaming. Which only leaves the third category of spam left as an issue. Admittedly, its a bit annoying, but i dont feel that sarcasm represents a willful attempt to act as a nuisance to the community, and if it does, there should be ALOT more infractions handed out.
So, this comes down to a simple thing, R.E.S.P.E.C.T. But, appearently its only mandatory to treat mods with respect, simply because, they're mods. Now, im sure that after the whole fiasco that has gone on in the past year, it was kinda unanimously decided that all rulings were to be held to each member equally, and yet, in debate, watercooler, entertainment, mafia, and MOST area's of the site, sarcasm, and disrespect as long as it isnt trolling or flaming, is accepted. Lord knows, i do not respect atleast a few people on these boards, and act it when the occasion arises i have to interact with them.
I just... feel that this isnt right. And im kinda just wanting to air it out, cause, reading this thread in question, i get a fairly strong "God Mod" attitude from it as anarki has stated.
You are simply mocking the position that the three of us carry. Also, you admit that you are going to give us smart-ass retorts. Funny, but I think and many will agree that this is simply not needed and is a form of misbehavior.
Appearently, not needed means you get infracted. nice to know.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
Caselogik's behavior in that thread is absolutely out of line and inappropriate. It was two months ago and I think(?) that was around the time he became a mod. Still, it doesn't excuse his actions. If his views on moderation remain the same today then I think he needs to be excused from his duties. Save that, maybe time wrap him so he can serve under Belgareth. That seems like it would be a good fit.
I'd never seen that thread before, so I'm looking at it from a fresh perspective and honestly... I don't see the problem here. Both Themchops' and MD's post that were infracted weren't simply disrespectful, they were clearly trolling. They were crammed with inflammatory statements that served more to insult JayC than actually make a constructive contribution to resolving the situation (which is all JayC was attempting to do in the first place). They may not have been blatant flames, but I'd say it's about a clear example of trolling as you could ask for.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
My views are the same as they were three months ago. I would react to that whole thread line in a similar matter. I don't have a god mod attitude, but open disrespect for moderator's is uncalled for. Open disrespect for members is uncalled for. If you don't like someone, do you go out of your way to be disrespectful?
Also, I was a made a moderator a few months prior to the posts linked above. Each of my responses came with the full support of the Market Street Staff (Rax, myself and at the time JayC).
I don't get why Themchops's first post was bad, but it seems to be heavily context-based, so alright. However, I seriously don't see anything wrong (at least enough to be infracted) in MD's first post, and I'm no MD fan. And Caselogik, you need to find out what sarcasm actually is.
I don't have a god mod attitude, but open disrespect for moderator's is uncalled for. Open disrespect for members is uncalled for. If you don't like someone, do you go out of your way to be disrespectful?
Yes! Yes, I do, to discourage them from doing these things! I don't go "goddamn, you're such a ****ing tard, loser" but I don't pretend like things are alright (unless it's not bad enough to warrant action, or some other type of action is warranted).
I didn't know anything about you, Caselogik, but now I'm not so respectful of you. This is open. Guess it's open disrespect?
Here's the thing: Even if the infractions are deserved, the manner in which they were given out was not proper (at least how I see, but I haven't really been in tune with things here for a long time). I object to stating:
Quote from Caselogik »
Backseat Modding: This is completely inappropriate. Also, How dare you use this attitude?
As it is condescending in tone and implies superiority. I also do not really think the poster's attitude was all that disrespectful. The content, maybe. But the attitude? Not so much.
Quote from Caselogik »
I will not tolerate open disrespect to the mods.
Also implies bad things; quite obviously I do believe. I also do not think that supporting others ideas should be against the rules.
Quote from Caselogik »
So what you are saying is that you will openly disobey us? Not only will you disobey, but you are going to continue to disrespect us?
This is worse than the above two in that again it is absolutely the wrong tone.
But the action that really gets me, Caselogik, is how you handled post 87. Going through a user's post and marking every instance of sarcasm not only fails to make sense but it violates the very user-to-user mutual respect you are suggesting. Had it been marking flames, maybe I could see it. But you were marking sarcasm. As in a tone used as a part of discourse. There is nothing in the rules against this. Further, the examples that you marked are not even examples of sarcasm.
I also do not like how you responded to Themchops' argument and then basically said the discussion needed to come to an end. That implies a "I'm right because I have authority and you are wrong because you don't" sort of idea that no one wants to push.
Overall, the entire thread is disturbing. Even Annorax with the little 'Infraction seconded' notes seems unorthodox and unnecessary. Moderate on the rules, not on your feelings (if you need help with that, I do believe templates like [mod4*] and the ilk still exist). None of the infractions in that thread are marked for what rules they broke, they are marked with little antagonist notes. That's not acceptable and needs to change. Sorry if you take all of this as a disrespect Caselogik but I believe the phrase goes along the lines of I'll respect you once you earn it.
I'd say the posts could be infractable, but not for the reasons given. Flaming/trolling is a problem, but disrespect for a person shouldn't be used to justify the red text. If they express such in an incendiary manner, infract the incendiary things - not the disrespect. It's unreasonable to force MTGS users to respect MTGS mods, or other users, but reasonable to expect them to behave in spite of disrespect.
Personally, I think the first infraction was rather quick to be handed out. Shouldn't someone say "cool it" first?
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My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
Heh, I remember reading that thread and thinking, not so much that the mods reactions were inappropriate (although come on, they were pretty condescending). But just being totally shocked that those words came from what I imagined we're young males in the 17-24ish kinda ages.
Am I the only one who would only expect a line like "This is completely inappropriate. Also, How dare you use this attitude? Your sarcasm and pettiness is astounding" out of my mom if i rolled my eyes at her when she told me to clean my room when I was a lil kid, or from a rough teacher in middle school when I talked back to her after being late for class or some such.
In all, I'd agree that the whole thread was filled with almost a mob mentality from the mods. If not a Mom Mentality...It was a Mom Mod Mob Mentality that meandered mockingly and massively through most of their message and meaning.
In all seriousness though. I wouldn't go so far as to say I think the people getting infracted were totally innocent (not that I think they're bad, they seem like cool cats. I'm just talking about the situations regarding this particular incident) But yeah, mods do tend to b VERY sarcastic, condescending and in that vein disrespectful with their responses. Always writing it off as "Well, if the person misbehaved, they deserved that response".
At the risk of dredging up a previous, but actually very similar topic. Is not that the very mentality someone might have when they flame someone "they deserved my response"?
In short, and I apologize in advanced for saying this, It just seems that mods will NEVER under any circumstance admit fault in an action they've taken. I've never seen it happen from the time I've been on mtg news in 03 till now. Not only that, they will tend to work as a team and back each other up no matter what the accusation. A perfect example being this very thread.
And again, let me also say that I'm not even really referring to every mod. As much as it sounds like it, that wasn't intended as an open attack at every mod, nor was it really trying to single anyone out. There's a good handful of mods that tend to handle problems in a reasonable and fair manner and although I'm sure all of us make mistakes, there are indeed mods who tend to shy away from throwing in those last few sarcastic and condescending remarks before issuing infractions or closing threads that makes that mod seem kinda petty and rude in a way.
In closing, I'm sorry to the peeps that I clearly just offended with that. I'm sure there'll be a backlash. But ehh, what can ya do, right? Tis the nature of expressing an arguable opinion.
In short, and I apologize in advanced for saying this, It just seems that mods will NEVER under any circumstance admit fault in an action they've taken. I've never seen it happen from the time I've been on mtg news in 03 till now. Not only that, they will tend to work as a team and back each other up no matter what the accusation. A perfect example being this very thread.
Wait, didn't I admit I was wrong in this thread last month?
I had quoted a rule that was already posted earlier in the thread. When you pointed that out, I apologized and admitted my mistake. So how can you say that Moderators never admit when they've screwed up?
@Jolly: That was precisely my point. It's not ENTIRELY that they didnt deserve it, cause... well, MOST of it was deserved, but the mod responses there were so patronizing it was basically asking for those infracted, and those with a more confrontational personality towards mods, to cause more of an issue. It wasnt appropriate, and was so patronizing, it seemed near trolling. Which is why i believe the situation got as bad as it did.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
@Jolly: That was precisely my point. It's not ENTIRELY that they didnt deserve it, cause... well, MOST of it was deserved, but the mod responses there were so patronizing it was basically asking for those infracted, and those with a more confrontational personality towards mods, to cause more of an issue. It wasnt appropriate, and was so patronizing, it seemed near trolling. Which is why i believe the situation got as bad as it did.
While I understand your view of the situation, I must ask. Why bring this up? The thread in question is almost three months old. Why did you suddenly decide to dig it up?
While I understand your view of the situation, I must ask. Why bring this up? The thread in question is almost three months old. Why did you suddenly decide to dig it up?
\
I didnt suddenly decide to "Bring it up" i saw a link to it in Themchops signature, i read the thread cause it was slightly interesting. And... what i saw annoyed and disturbed me. Lord knows, im outspoken when things are going badly, but i dont hesitate to defend the mods when i think they're in the right as well.
I feel this is a very wrong situation.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
Wait, didn't I admit I was wrong in this thread last month?
I had quoted a rule that was already posted earlier in the thread. When you pointed that out, I apologized and admitted my mistake. So how can you say that Moderators never admit when they've screwed up?
Cause unless we beat you with the facts and clearly show you MOST won't admit to a mistake. There are some that admit to it easly... others that refuse to admit to it and continue to act as if there methods ARE the ways.
But whats to expect to someone that everytime I reply to you you cry, whimper, and run to other mods to infract me, warn me, or other and also threatens me with infractions when I argue points against you.
You force yourself to be involved on issues that you shouldn't be in and when you screaw up on them you run away. Tip.... Don't get involved.........
*and this may be the post that nails me to the wall and gets me suspended cause I forsee someone running to someone now*
I didnt suddenly decide to "Bring it up" i saw a link to it in Themchops signature, i read the thread cause it was slightly interesting. And... what i saw annoyed and disturbed me. Lord knows, im outspoken when things are going badly, but i dont hesitate to defend the mods when i think they're in the right as well.
I feel this is a very wrong situation.
Fair enough.
It just kinda struck me as random, but I understand why you brought it up. Personally, I feel that both sides went a bit over the line, and both had their faults.
Cause unless we beat you with the facts and clearly show you MOST won't admit to a mistake. There are some that admit to it easly... others that refuse to admit to it and continue to act as if there methods ARE the ways.
Beat me with the facts?
Jolly simply said that Krashbot had already linked to the rules in a previous post. It was at that point that I apologized for the oversight. How in the world is that "beating with the facts"?
Wait, didn't I admit I was wrong in this thread last month?
I had quoted a rule that was already posted earlier in the thread. When you pointed that out, I apologized and admitted my mistake. So how can you say that Moderators never admit when they've screwed up?
True. true. I apologize for that.
It would have indeed been better stated as "I've almost never seen a mod apologize".
And I do gotta agree with what Saph is saying. Not even specifically in regards to you, but mods in general. Again, I'm not trying to attack you, you seemed totally chill when we talked things out. Alas some other mods could be rather pigheaded in their views.
@Saph: Awww, although I do totally respect your choice to leave if you do wanna leave. I just want you to be sure that there is still people who got love for ya here! I don't wanna see you go.
Stormbind said it best: "the mod responses there were so patronizing it was basically asking for those infracted, and those with a more confrontational personality towards mods, to cause more of an issue. It wasnt appropriate, and was so patronizing, it seemed near trolling"
How could any person not be taken back by such a patronizing response? Even if they were indeed at fault for the response. I just think at times Mods need to do their best to be the bigger man in the situation, and rather than ridicule the poster before infracting them or closing the thread without giving them a chance to respond. Simply politely explain the reason for the infaction and move on.
Alas, I'm sure a response to this might be something like "how could you expect us to be polite when dealing with someone being belligerent .
To which I might say, "You're our moderators, you need to set a better example for us members rather than stooping to our level". I might even add in a cute lil too.
It would have indeed been better stated as "I've almost never seen a mod apologize".
Simply politely explain the reason for the infaction and move on.
Well in the one instance where i was only warned for doing something incorrectly, i kindly pointed out to the mod who gave me the warning that he was wrong. What i got in return.... absolutly nothing, no response. All I wanted was a clarification on the rules, and to know if they had changed without my knowing. It was in a thread where this person isn't even listed as a mod. Maybe not exactly to this point but it shows that some mods are not interested in informing the members of how to do things better, but are there just to put red text on your post.
I believe the problem here isn't about the fact that the warnings were issued but how they were issued.
Let's treat Caselogik's and 'Rax's mod text as actual posts. Shouldn't they also be warned for trolling? Because they are just as much an example of trolling as the posts they are warning.
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Whereas, something of a similar vein of posting, such as:
Which is also a blatant lack of respect that was totally ignored.
So, this kinda raised a question for me, i was checking the Forum rules, and the closest rulings i could find being broken, were:
So, this comes down to a simple thing, R.E.S.P.E.C.T. But, appearently its only mandatory to treat mods with respect, simply because, they're mods. Now, im sure that after the whole fiasco that has gone on in the past year, it was kinda unanimously decided that all rulings were to be held to each member equally, and yet, in debate, watercooler, entertainment, mafia, and MOST area's of the site, sarcasm, and disrespect as long as it isnt trolling or flaming, is accepted. Lord knows, i do not respect atleast a few people on these boards, and act it when the occasion arises i have to interact with them.
I just... feel that this isnt right. And im kinda just wanting to air it out, cause, reading this thread in question, i get a fairly strong "God Mod" attitude from it as anarki has stated.
Appearently, not needed means you get infracted. nice to know.
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Also, I was a made a moderator a few months prior to the posts linked above. Each of my responses came with the full support of the Market Street Staff (Rax, myself and at the time JayC).
Yes! Yes, I do, to discourage them from doing these things! I don't go "goddamn, you're such a ****ing tard, loser" but I don't pretend like things are alright (unless it's not bad enough to warrant action, or some other type of action is warranted).
I didn't know anything about you, Caselogik, but now I'm not so respectful of you. This is open. Guess it's open disrespect?
As it is condescending in tone and implies superiority. I also do not really think the poster's attitude was all that disrespectful. The content, maybe. But the attitude? Not so much.
Also implies bad things; quite obviously I do believe. I also do not think that supporting others ideas should be against the rules.
This is worse than the above two in that again it is absolutely the wrong tone.
But the action that really gets me, Caselogik, is how you handled post 87. Going through a user's post and marking every instance of sarcasm not only fails to make sense but it violates the very user-to-user mutual respect you are suggesting. Had it been marking flames, maybe I could see it. But you were marking sarcasm. As in a tone used as a part of discourse. There is nothing in the rules against this. Further, the examples that you marked are not even examples of sarcasm.
I also do not like how you responded to Themchops' argument and then basically said the discussion needed to come to an end. That implies a "I'm right because I have authority and you are wrong because you don't" sort of idea that no one wants to push.
Overall, the entire thread is disturbing. Even Annorax with the little 'Infraction seconded' notes seems unorthodox and unnecessary. Moderate on the rules, not on your feelings (if you need help with that, I do believe templates like [mod4*] and the ilk still exist). None of the infractions in that thread are marked for what rules they broke, they are marked with little antagonist notes. That's not acceptable and needs to change. Sorry if you take all of this as a disrespect Caselogik but I believe the phrase goes along the lines of I'll respect you once you earn it.
So this applies to the mods making mistakes but not the members?
I realize MD at least has a lengthy list of mistakes, so the reaction is more understandable, but seriously, both groups were rude.
Personally, I think the first infraction was rather quick to be handed out. Shouldn't someone say "cool it" first?
Everything. Sarcasm, is a horrible, horrible thing. It will doom us all.
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Am I the only one who would only expect a line like "This is completely inappropriate. Also, How dare you use this attitude? Your sarcasm and pettiness is astounding" out of my mom if i rolled my eyes at her when she told me to clean my room when I was a lil kid, or from a rough teacher in middle school when I talked back to her after being late for class or some such.
In all, I'd agree that the whole thread was filled with almost a mob mentality from the mods. If not a Mom Mentality...It was a Mom Mod Mob Mentality that meandered mockingly and massively through most of their message and meaning.
In all seriousness though. I wouldn't go so far as to say I think the people getting infracted were totally innocent (not that I think they're bad, they seem like cool cats. I'm just talking about the situations regarding this particular incident) But yeah, mods do tend to b VERY sarcastic, condescending and in that vein disrespectful with their responses. Always writing it off as "Well, if the person misbehaved, they deserved that response".
At the risk of dredging up a previous, but actually very similar topic. Is not that the very mentality someone might have when they flame someone "they deserved my response"?
In short, and I apologize in advanced for saying this, It just seems that mods will NEVER under any circumstance admit fault in an action they've taken. I've never seen it happen from the time I've been on mtg news in 03 till now. Not only that, they will tend to work as a team and back each other up no matter what the accusation. A perfect example being this very thread.
And again, let me also say that I'm not even really referring to every mod. As much as it sounds like it, that wasn't intended as an open attack at every mod, nor was it really trying to single anyone out. There's a good handful of mods that tend to handle problems in a reasonable and fair manner and although I'm sure all of us make mistakes, there are indeed mods who tend to shy away from throwing in those last few sarcastic and condescending remarks before issuing infractions or closing threads that makes that mod seem kinda petty and rude in a way.
In closing, I'm sorry to the peeps that I clearly just offended with that. I'm sure there'll be a backlash. But ehh, what can ya do, right? Tis the nature of expressing an arguable opinion.
Wait, didn't I admit I was wrong in this thread last month?
I had quoted a rule that was already posted earlier in the thread. When you pointed that out, I apologized and admitted my mistake. So how can you say that Moderators never admit when they've screwed up?
While I understand your view of the situation, I must ask. Why bring this up? The thread in question is almost three months old. Why did you suddenly decide to dig it up?
I didnt suddenly decide to "Bring it up" i saw a link to it in Themchops signature, i read the thread cause it was slightly interesting. And... what i saw annoyed and disturbed me. Lord knows, im outspoken when things are going badly, but i dont hesitate to defend the mods when i think they're in the right as well.
I feel this is a very wrong situation. \
Cause unless we beat you with the facts and clearly show you MOST won't admit to a mistake. There are some that admit to it easly... others that refuse to admit to it and continue to act as if there methods ARE the ways.
But whats to expect to someone that everytime I reply to you you cry, whimper, and run to other mods to infract me, warn me, or other and also threatens me with infractions when I argue points against you.
You force yourself to be involved on issues that you shouldn't be in and when you screaw up on them you run away. Tip.... Don't get involved.........
*and this may be the post that nails me to the wall and gets me suspended cause I forsee someone running to someone now*
It just kinda struck me as random, but I understand why you brought it up. Personally, I feel that both sides went a bit over the line, and both had their faults.
Beat me with the facts?
Jolly simply said that Krashbot had already linked to the rules in a previous post. It was at that point that I apologized for the oversight. How in the world is that "beating with the facts"?
True. true. I apologize for that.
It would have indeed been better stated as "I've almost never seen a mod apologize".
And I do gotta agree with what Saph is saying. Not even specifically in regards to you, but mods in general. Again, I'm not trying to attack you, you seemed totally chill when we talked things out. Alas some other mods could be rather pigheaded in their views.
@Saph: Awww, although I do totally respect your choice to leave if you do wanna leave. I just want you to be sure that there is still people who got love for ya here! I don't wanna see you go.
Stormbind said it best: "the mod responses there were so patronizing it was basically asking for those infracted, and those with a more confrontational personality towards mods, to cause more of an issue. It wasnt appropriate, and was so patronizing, it seemed near trolling"
How could any person not be taken back by such a patronizing response? Even if they were indeed at fault for the response. I just think at times Mods need to do their best to be the bigger man in the situation, and rather than ridicule the poster before infracting them or closing the thread without giving them a chance to respond. Simply politely explain the reason for the infaction and move on.
Alas, I'm sure a response to this might be something like "how could you expect us to be polite when dealing with someone being belligerent .
To which I might say, "You're our moderators, you need to set a better example for us members rather than stooping to our level". I might even add in a cute lil too.
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Well in the one instance where i was only warned for doing something incorrectly, i kindly pointed out to the mod who gave me the warning that he was wrong. What i got in return.... absolutly nothing, no response. All I wanted was a clarification on the rules, and to know if they had changed without my knowing. It was in a thread where this person isn't even listed as a mod. Maybe not exactly to this point but it shows that some mods are not interested in informing the members of how to do things better, but are there just to put red text on your post.
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Let's treat Caselogik's and 'Rax's mod text as actual posts. Shouldn't they also be warned for trolling? Because they are just as much an example of trolling as the posts they are warning.
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